Twinky

Never really thought about that, but you're more or less right. I recall the class/VPW said to put away other reading matter for three months, and concentrate on reading the epistles (not PFAL material) - though twig leaders would encourage reading the Blue Book, and other PFAL books. We were discouraged from reading the gospels (relating to a bygone time and not relevant to us in this administration - gag). The OT wasn't mentioned as reading material for this three month period. Having put away secular material for 3 months - there was always too much else to do, classes to be at, etc, to get into any other secular material. As regards prayer, we were encourage to SIT but that's about all. No recommendation for a daily time of prayer and reflection. "Meditate on the word" became "read" the word, not think about it, especially in relation to other materials or scripture passages. Oh, and read what the PFAL books say about it. We were specifically discouraged from "the Lord's Prayer" - isn't one of the Listening with a Purpose questions, "Why can we not pray this prayer?" - because our forgiveness is not dependent on us forgiving others. There was no encouragement in thinking of the heart of this prayer - the holiness/hallowedness of God; the seeking after His will coming into effect (despite the motto which I won't repeat); no acknowledgment of God as our daily provider - just as Him being a provider on demand of parking places, money and other trinkets; no acknowledgment of His awesomeness. The "Lord's Prayer" isn't and never was supposed to be a mantra - but an acknowledgment of God's greatness, His majesty, His power and His glory. And we would do well to remember that, with all humility. Then, we have a proper place to fit the prayer in Eph 1:15ff. Without the latter becoming some sort of ego trip. While I'm about it - and this is a bit - we all know Rom 10:9-10 - but the preceding verses relate back to the blessings and cursings of Deut 28-30, where a clear choice is laid out for the believers of that time. I've met Way "ministers" (allegedly ordained) that have never even read Deut 30!!! The way The Way thought they could get us "born again" and confessing Jesus as Lord is so facile that it's a wonder anyone got helped - there are some posters here who recognize what a dreadful place they had come from and lived the "cursings" part. Choose you this day [now] .... Your decision, people, individuals. Choose, after carefully thinking about. It's the goodness of God that leads us to repentance - not the effusiveness of PFAL - did people have time to reflect upon and contemplate God's goodness? Or were they railroaded into some sort of confession of - whatever - and scared into some version of SIT? Present a facile image of Jesus the Christ, don't give time to think about anything or make a considered choice, scare 'em or bully 'em into SIT (or scare 'em away from it forever) - and wham! got 'em hooked for life. That old "bait and switch" again.

Socks, I managed to get via Gideons a giant print NIV New Testament & Psalms (they also do large print - smaller than giant). NIV only. My Mum can now read it with ease and regards this Bible as her most treasured possession. Gideons give their Bibles out free (though donations are probably welcome). You might want to see if you can get a Bible via them. I too tend to "think" in KJV, perhaps most of us here do. And to use here, for familiarity's sake. I study using KJV, lots of resources, Amplified, Companion, etc. But for just reading, I prefer to read something a little fresher and more modern. For those who read New KJV (and isn't there another version too, KJV2000 or some such?) - what do you think of it? There are some subtle and some not so subtle differences in translation, not just updating words and phrases. Why do you like it? Do the differences bother you, do you find them helpful or annoying, do you revert in your thinking back to KJV?

Why does it matter who the thesis is intended to be read by? As long as "jargon," being terms where the meaning is known by a particular closed group, surely whatever Steve finds should be available to all? We ex-TWI folk have had enough jargon (Wayspeak) to last our lifetimes. Steve's terms have to be defined, not known and understood only by the in-crowd. With such a mixed bunch of fellow students, jargon may be naturally limited. Having said that, I'm not entirely sure what "social outlier" or "post-modern deconstruction" mean! Steve, look forward to your postings on this thread.

We share this planet with so many things both visible and invisible to the naked eye...bacteria, viruses, for example; and huge whales which some may have seen; and other critters that are still to be discovered. Don't see why we shouldn't also be sharing it with other beings that are entirely different... angels, cherubim, seraphim (maybe, though they're all mentioned in heavenly terms) ... let's not forget we are also sharing it not only with angels but with the fallen angels aka devil spirits as well. Or maybe the angels and fallen angels are some linking form of spiritual being that can work with the cherubim and seraphim and whatever other beings there are in "the heavenlies" (the living creatures in Ezekiel, for instance) as well as with/for human beings and Earth-bound critters? Krys, love your angel story.

Thou art welcome, Miss Buff. I find I've read KJV so much that the words often slide past my eyes without registering - or perhaps I'm trying not to acknowledge some sort of teaching around a verse. Anyway, other versions give slightly different insights, nuances, ways of looking at a verse. Sometimes, too, a few words have been attached to a different phrase, or the punctuation is different, which gives a different emphasis to what is being said.

I like Holman Christian Standard, which I happened across at a Christian bookshop. Never seen one before or since, but it's known by others in my church. Biblestudytools (noted above) describes it thus: "The HCS is a highly readable, accurate translation written in modern English. It is published by Holman Bible Publishers, the oldest Bible publisher in America. word-for-word" It seems well translated with good nuances, yet it's easy to read. The Message is so off-the-wall that at times you'll scratch your head wondering what passage you are reading - it's a zillion miles from KJV - yet once you understand what it's saying, you "get it" in Petersen's version. I had a New Living Translation (NLT) at one time but gave it to a newly-exploring Christian because of its readability: "Using modern English, the translators of the NLT focused on producing clarity in the meaning of the text rather than creating a literal, word-for-word equivalence. Their goal was to create a clear, readable translation while remaining faithful to original texts. thought-for-thought." Hope you find something that suits you, Excie.

Thought it might be interesting to consider what we might be reading nowadays. Does anyone from choice still read KJV? When I first started to recover from TWI, I read The Message, which is about as far away from KJV as you can get. Now, I read other versions, one or two in particular. This list is from one of the popular Bible study websites, Biblestudytools.com, abridged from a list of their most popular versions. There are, of course, lots of other lists of "most popular" Bibles so apologies if your favorite isn't included. You might also like to add comments about why you use the version(s) you do - what's good about them.

He certainly did those things. I knew nothing of what activities male homosexuals engage in - but after practically a whole year of CN seemingly devoted to this topic - I "know" far more than anyone could ever want to know. Even, perhaps, some male homosexuals. How come Martindale "knew" so much? Was any of it true? (Too much information. Please don't enlighten me, anyone) Good, glad they had some use. The Allens would have been able to subpoena TWI and demand the tapes of relevant CNs be released (cos you know TWI recorded everything, don't you?!) The judge would have found those ... very ... revealing.

Penworks, you still have all that stuff? I burned all my notes, Corps notes, SNS, those "classes" - everything except my journals. I looked at some of the notes before I burned them. They were painful then, when they were a more or less verbatim record of what was said at Corps Night (woe betide anyone who didn't have a very detailed set of notes!) and they were painful when I looked at them all these years later. The hate emanating from the written words... All I would have kept them for was to use to post here - and I haven't the inclination to rummage through them all to find relevant snippets. Some of you are very dedicated. As international Corps, we weren't on hookup but did get the tape every week, which we had to listen to in a formal setting on the proper date (properly dressed just as if for CN in the flesh), take notes, no re-winds, and definitely no copies. If I'd recorded the tapes... would love to let them go to potential litigants, but otherwise, couldn't bear to listen. The only reasons, IMO, that they wouldn't want you to record is that (a) what they teach is so off-the-wall they'd make themselves laughing stocks were it to become public; and (b) to avoid any kind of legal proceedings - especially from those whom they slandered so freely. Of which (b) is the real reason, I think.

Waysider, you mean you believed - that? I doubt there's a shred of anything to support that (really!) and in any case, why would God so limit himself? Only an arrogant human being would think such a thing. God has more than one way of "speaking" and it's often not with words at all.

I'd love to see it sometime too - and a lot of the other items that Steve references. His posts always make me think, reassess, give better insight into. Maybe if Steve permits, we could put his thesis on the Documents section so that anyone new here can also have a good think about what SIT means?

As a kid I used to love speaking in my "foreign language." I didn't know what it was, but it was nice, and I used to like singing in it too. It was a game to me...but it came after an understanding and decision, as a child, that Jesus loved me and I loved Jesus. And that was decades before encountering TWI. There are many times when I have talked with people and, without knowing anything of their situations, have said something that they've said was "just what they needed to hear." Is that a WoK, a word of prophecy, what? I don't know, I only know that as my heart is to help and serve others, I believe God can give me words that others need - to encourage, to strengthen, to help. I agree with Steve's thoughts on this. Don't know if any of what TWI taught is correct. As it was so performance-based (works), especially in the Intermediate class, it was probably all stuff and nonsense. I know that if I did anything like that (SIT and interpretation) in any church I've been to since TWI (not that there are many of those) I would get, at the very least, some raised eyebrows. At the church I've been attending, they are open to people with a "word" about current situations, a Bible verse to share, or a "picture" that seems to relate to something that the church is considering. The "picture" is usually "interpreted" or explained by the person "seeing" the "picture." And sometimes, there is a quiet bit at the end of some songs where people spontaneously start singing softly in tongues. The noise so made actually sounds quite pleasant but I find it quite freaky - guess that is something from TWI that I still need to deal with. While they're happy with the same person "interpreting" a "picture," if it came to interpreting tongues, they would definitely expect an "interpreter" (different person) to be present rather than delivery by the same person. But then again, perhaps that's as far as that church's understanding goes... God always has more that he wants us to know.

Yah, "believing connotes action" - therefore, as in his actions he was smoking known cancer-causing agents, and drinking known liver disease agents, what was his believing? To get those diseases. And he did. He died of cancer. His believing equaled his receiving. It's easier to clean your teeth regularly and refrain from sweet sugary things, than to "believe to heal" your teeth and get your rotted pegs fixed free of charge by God. "Believing" sometimes, often, means not doing something.

I like that idea. Encourages us to be reflective about our own past and to see the hand of God in where we've come from.

Bit like at the time of Christ's birth then. The Jewish astronomers "knew" but didn't care. Only the Babylonians, taught by Daniel centuries before, had the wit to read, understand, and act upon. I'd agree with that. And every day, not just one specific day or a season, is the time to celebrate it.

I thought some of you might be interested in this man, Graham (Gram) Seed, who'd spent his early years as a thug, thief, alkie, druggie, violent and ultra-offensive young man. On his deathbed (in hospital, not expected to recover), he was prayed for by some Christians who'd befriended him whilst he lived in a filthy state on a park bench. He recovered, has a totally changed life where he feels all his relationships have been restored (and then some), and has gone on to found a ministry dedicated to taking the gospel to prisoners and to helping prisoners upon release. His story reminds me somewhat of Nicky Cruz's story. Sowing Seeds Ministries Gram's written a book about it which has won awards for best Christian book of the year. It's very readable. You'll see it advertised on the website. Probably few of you will encounter his work directly, but do be encouraged that when you speak with down-and-outs, society's rejects, those without hope - some of them may eventually listen. Play your part in God's big plan. Speak up!

If they have to ask that - you have to ask, what do they want to hide? If it's really "the truth," shouldn't they want it disseminated as widely as possible? But if it's not "the truth," then they shouldn't be saying it at all. Just imagine ... being on a Corps night hookup ... and having invited the local church minister to sit in and critique... Not like you could buy Corps Night tapes (like SNS tapes). So, they weren't concerned about loss of sales revenue - they'd be wanting to stop WC exiting with "their" teachings. Or, more realistically, they wanted to slander those who had left, and not have "evidence" out there, in case innie Corps were disobediently still in touch with DFAC Corps and could pass on evidence of the slanders to the DFAC corps. Some truly vile things were said about cast-out Corps, in the name of keeping the household clean. A lawyer for the slandered could get very interested in those comments ...!

I don't care...they're stuck there. And they ... don't ... care - they're stuck there.

Looks good to me! Steak & kidney pie, or steak & kidney pudding (not quite the same things) are very popular. The pie pastry can be shortcrust or puff (as your recipe). The pudding is made with a suet pastry, the texture of which is quite different. Contents can be the same (still delicious). Brits seem to like pies and pasties. Well - not just Brits.

"Knowledge" puffeth up...

Actually I think it's about the first HONEST thing he's said. All that waffle, all those words ... boils down to this. It doesn't really work like that, John. It's not, you tithe and God give you ten times back. Or whatever you seem to think. You don't need financial resources, you need spiritual resources. You need to LIVE it. And then, you can reach "countless people." It's the lifestyle of GIVING not the lifestyle of GRASPING that wins hearts and minds.

Look good! (Christmas gifts, perhaps?)

You told me what you thought of VPW. I think you'll go a long way, spiritually. May your journey be interesting. You're totally fine, Chockie.

Don't do that, Froggie.

Outie, you go to their website and listen to their music??? :wacko: Can I pray for you to be delivered? (LOL)