Twinky

Thanks for your contribution, Johniam, but it really would be more helpful if the topic remained a discussion about the 12 steps and whether they are useful or not.

Ham, it was the notes in the Companion Bible to Leviticus that got me interested in understanding the Bible more - the precision of the description for the tabernacle and its symbolism. If that can become rivetingly interesting, well ...! I had that book re-bound once - or was it twice? - so many notes all over it. I was given another when I graduated the WC. That one's still in pristine condition. I don't much read KJV now. I certainly wouldn't want to read any of the notes scribbled in the margins.

... Or any other illness - physical or mental. ... Or any other kind of problem, relationship, work, personal ... money... It was only "Believe what the Word says!" without the practical help to take the necessary action. I do have an acquaintance, a Christian man, who was alcoholic, into drugs too I think; he loves going to AA, speaks frequently at various meetings (not just at AA meetings) to help others overcome their addiction - in fact, seems to have made it his personal ministry. He knows what God has rescued him from and loves sharing his story with others. I think he sees AA as God's rescue plan for him. I feel encouraged by replies that indicate the success of this program. Another of those TWI stumbling blocks kicked to the kerb, I think.

Is how I remember it, too. The 12-step program is a "spiritual counterfeit." (Hmph!!) Good on your uncle, OS, for finally coming to his senses. OperaBuff, no Craig didn't have a drink problem. He had a food problem - overate and got very fat in the "fog years" - and then slimmed down pretty well.

Thanks, all, and Newlife especially, for your really thoughtful post. I think the real objection of LCM was to the phrase in steps 3 and 11: God as we understood Him. Our job is to teach fully and acc'rately who God is, doncha know! And that alone would help people. And step 4 requires thinking and introspection - not "action." Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves. Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out. TWI isn't good at giving real practical help to those who need it. Individuals are, yes, but the organization as a whole, no. And having to deal with people with complex problems (because addiction doesn't come alone) takes time - time that could be spent "moving the word." In addition, TWI isn't giving to allowing people time for introspective soul-searching. Quiet time meditating on the Word. It seems to me that to make "a searching and fearless moral inventory of" oneself can take a very long time. Yet not to do that, at least at some level, means the "old man nature" is simply dormant, not dead, in those areas where one doesn't allow the fullness of the new birth to take effect. 2 Cor 10:5,6 exhort us: How can you bring "every thought" into captivity, cast down every imagination etc, if you don't root out where such thoughts and imaginations come from? If you only keep stamping on the "thought" rather than considering why you keep getting such thoughts and then rooting that out, you're not really dealing with the problem. You're simply knocking on the door of the stronghold, not working out a strategy to destroy the stronghold itself.

LCM used to shout about what a counterfeit the 12 step program was/is. (Maybe he learned that from VPW, would he think of that himself?) I know nothing about this program personally; I do know a few people who have suffered from alcohol addiction who have found the AA program very helpful. I was very surprised, suspicious, freaked out .. to find that this is the subject of the current term's teachings at one of the churches that I attend. But this sermon series is about the 12 steps on our road to spiritual recovery and our increasing dependence on God ... weaning ourselves off addition to ego, self-centredness, and material obsessions (whatever they may be, including use of oil - fuel, plastics, etc). The sermon series is based on a book called Breathing Underwater by Richard Rohr These are the original Twelve Steps as published by Alcoholics Anonymous: We admitted we were powerless over alcohol—that our lives had become unmanageable. Came to believe that a power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves. Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs. Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings. Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others. Continued to take personal inventory, and when we were wrong, promptly admitted it. Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out. Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics, and to practice these principles in all our affairs. I wondered if any of you here have explored these 12 steps in a spiritual (Godly) way; or if any of you have experienced applying them as part of a program for some addition you've had?

Och, you remind me of things I'd forgotten ... how I was spied on when in rez and the times I retired at night reported to the Corps Coord and thence to LCM ... the frogmarching off to meetings with Craig or the CC - not for a facemelting but for a very quiet (chilling) reprimand and his pitiful sighs about my spiritual ability ... how horrified (if not to say terrified) I felt when after graduation I thought I might have to go back to HQ and work on staff ... the ultra-organization of one's time ... too much stuff that I am not going to dredge up. I live a nice life now, thanks, and truly feel that I am SERVING GOD AND SERVING HIS PEOPLE. And in return I feel genuinely loved by God, and genuinely cared for by people at my church. Oh and I make occasional mistakes along the line and people just smile lovingly and say, don't worry about it. Oh what a cop-out I am (NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!) !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Heh, no "appearance of illness" but actually severe illness. Lots of sorrow and disappointment ... mostly because he didn't get the enormous respect his ego demanded. Dirty snow - could that be, "the air was black with snow"? Never any reconciliation, though. Looking through a window - lots of very angry interviews...but not with sweethearts, only with the people he was supposed to care for. Maybe there is some truth in this "dram" thing, after all.

Is that their slogan now? Prevailing word TO the world? I thought it was Prevailing word OVER the world. Or maybe just Prevailing word. Craig announced (didn't he?) that the word had gone over the world and now TWI wasn't talking in terms of Word Over the Word but God's Prevailing Word. @ Dabobbada - that's funny!

Newlife, ESV is quite interesting. Gooey...hey, go for it. I hear that Jesus snuggled down under the bedclothes with his bicycle lamp, to read the Bible, LOL.

This man has cost the British legal aid system millions in legal aid. Not to mention the cost of keeping him in prison. Glad you're around to share the burden. He's working your legal aid system now. I gather he isn't to be sent to your special holiday camp in the sun. Pity, he might like it there. A small island in the middle of a shark-infested ocean would be a good alternative. I have no doubt that some in the US will attempt to make a political point out of it. But who, and what point ... maybe both sides will claim (?) him. He might try to claim asylum. He did in the UK, on the basis that his human rights would be breached if sent back to Jordan (where he's a native of) because they might torture him. There's a saying in law that "he who seeks equity must come with clean hands" - don't beg for fairness if you haven't been fair - one can only guess at how many other people's human rights have been breached by and as a result of the (alleged) actions of this man, and others of his ilk. Young men corrupted, others killed, blackmailed or injured; many innocent victims of deliberate killings and bombings; and the damage to the families of those folks. Not a nice man.

This wonderful specimen of a human being (cough) has now pleaded Not Guilty to 11 charges of terrorism, including one of trying to set up a terrorist training camp in Oregon. Abu Hamza in NY He claims to be mentally unfit to plead. Poor soul.

Don't know if this has received much publicity over in the US, but this alleged terrorist has been manipulating the British and European legal systems for years. He's not even a Brit, but abused asylum granted to him, corrupted idealistic young men, preached very evil acts, and has upon his arrest claimed "human rights" to avoid extradition. Abu Hamza At last he is on his way to you folks in the USA. Treat him kindly...more kindly than he treated his victims, whether they be those stupid young idealists (we all know what that was like) or innocent passersby. You're welcome to him. No need to think of sending him back to us.

Calm down, geisha. Switch to decaff. Steve, you're going to spend three hours expounding on this one verse to your profs? Though that of course means that you've spent a good many other hours working everything else in this section of 1 Cor and a good few other places as well. (Three hours...!)

Can't agree with you on that, John. KJV's words are not "meaningless" and in fact are very meaningful. It's just that the meaning of some words has changed over the years, centuries, and one has to get back in 1600s mind-frame...which is quite difficult for many. If one doesn't have a good grasp of today's English language, it's even more difficult. We see that word-meaning change constantly in today's life. "It's wicked!" actually means "It's very good!" Modern versions like The Message, NLT, etc are really easy to read but a bit folksy. For people without a good grasp of English, old English, English grammar, and the underlying languages (Hebrew, Greek, Aramaic, whatever) (and that's probably most of us) it's quite enlightening to read several versions which helps to shade or nuance the meaning of whole passages of the Bible as well as particular words. i do rather like the more intimate 2nd person singular ("thee" "thou" "thine") in parts of KJV - but then, I grew up using that form of address. It makes some passages so very much more meaningful and intense... stresses one's personal responsibility to do something. Those differences might still be evident in other language versions (French, Spanish, German, ???) No-one in the poll has so far said they regularly read other-language versions except GSG who reads it in Greek.

It seems to have escaped later posters' attention that the original post was 6.5 years ago and the poster made only the one post. One wonders if he ever returned to read any responses. Now some other person (registered some time ago) has leapt into the discussion, making practically the totality of his/her posts on this one thread. Regular posters here have their views, of course, but I wonder if the reason this thread is now up for discussion is that someone is not serious about responses but just wants to cause dispute and trouble. Trolling, in fact.

I rather suspect it was the other way round ... his wife was being bonked by Rosie (as he had bonked so many other men's wives) (now that's justice of a sort, though poetic probably not), and he was being ousted by Rosie and his wife - and that's why he was "so down on women." Johniam, yes, there was stuff about a mother's sphere of influence...but again, one of those things that lip service was paid to but the actuality was different. Husbands were given authority to overrule wives in any situation - and of course everyone was subject to someone higher up the Way tree - so in fact, there was interference from on high and external to the family about how children were being raised. There are posters here who can attest to that and to advice, etc about the raising of their children that really wasn't in the children's best interests ...it's caused some posters to do a runner from TWI.

Ah, she was smarter than him, been around such a long time, gave him enough rope and he hanged himself. Maybe fear of Rosie was why he stamped on incoming women (in-rez then in graduated Corps) so much, so they'd never get near the string never mind the rope. He did listen to Rosie when she made "suggestions" or sought to dissuade him from some things he wanted to do.

All the trustees always had a nominee in case they themselves were incapacitated, died suddenly, etc (of course...where would the revelation be that one was going to die in a car/plane crash...but I digress). I remember LCM announcing this one day - early 90s - he announced his successor with a big run-up - you'll be surprised, etc etc, Yes, It's Rev Rivenbark! Yes, it's a woman [gulp] - and he went on in some way about women having a ministry. I don't remember the words he used, only the tone of voice and the way he presented it. This is that same LCM that constantly denigrated women (especially smart women) who showed any ability, thinking skills, leadership qualities - anything other than complete submission to the nearest male jerk. And particularly married women, who barely existed in their own right under his tenure - everything had to be addressed to the head of household, the husband. She knew what she'd got on him. And her strategy (one has to agree) was successful, got herself enough dirt to get him kicked out and herself installed. She knew what women he'd coerced - and then she hung him out to dry. After, no doubt, a few fiery confrontations she gave him.

's why I'm interested in Steve's view, Raf. I recently did an intro to NT Greek course taught by a student at a local church who is studying theology at Oxford University. (A lovely lass she is, too.) I sidled into the discussions the group had, an enquiry about the difference if any between heteros and allos. She gave a bit of an explanation which was so far from what VPW stated categorically that I couldn't take it in. Suffice to say that it was much looser and nothing like as black and white as VPW claimed. But ... severally (separately) as He/he/it wills ??? Who? God? Man? the holy spirit? the Holy Spirit? ... the church minister, the congregation, the person next to you (LOL)...

This is only a bit off topic and Steve is going to have to deal with it anyway at some stage. What does 1 Cor 12:11 mean? "...dividing to every man severally as He [he?] will." And this whole passage is mixed up with that heteros/allos (alleged) difference that VPW claimed. (And for you Wiewillites, I'm not interested in the PFAL "definition" - I'm interested in what a serious Biblical scholar or professor thinks this means.) There is a school of thought that says 1 and 2 Cor are actually 1, 2, 3 and 4 Cor, in other words, not only two epistles but a combination of fragments of more than two. There are some changes of direction within these epistles and also a reference to a previous letter that we don't have, nowadays, which might be incorporated in the composite that we now call 1 Cor.

There is a database of all European companies and I wonder how many other TWI-clones there are out there - in France, Germany, Belgium, and the rest of Europe. TWI was very active in Germany with Wolfg@ng Schn3ider but who knows if anything is happening there now, I don't. There are still TWI (type) fellowships in France with several splinter groups too. There are also splinters in Scandinavia but don't know if they are just splinters (and hang more with CFFM or alone) or if there is a genuine (?) TWI presence / incorporated company in any of these.

Maybe we can celebrate their anniversary when they finally shut up shop.

So originally when TWI set up Gartmore, we were called "The Way in Great Britain" (WayGB (!) ) and then when everything crashed and burned, and Gartmore had broken away, a new set-up was established which was known as "The Way of the UK" - that would be very early 1990s. Neither of these appears to be a registered company. But I did find this: Company Details: Name & Registered Office: THE WAY INTERNATIONAL (UK) LIMITED FRYERN HOUSE 125 WINCHESTER ROAD CHANDLERS FORD HAMPSHIRE SO53 2DR Company No. 02943269 Status: Active Date of Incorporation: 28/06/1994 Country of Origin: United Kingdom Company Type: Private Limited Company Nature of Business (SIC): 94910 - Activities of religious organizations Accounting Reference Date: 30/06 Last Accounts Made Up To: 30/06/2011 (TOTAL EXEMPTION FULL) Next Accounts Due: 31/03/2013 Last Return Made Up To: 28/06/2012 Next Return Due: 26/07/2013 Last Members List: 28/06/2012 Previous Names:No previous name information has been recorded over the last 20 years. UK Establishment Details There are no UK Establishments associated with this company. Oversea Company Info There are no Oversea Details associated with this company. Maybe that's the legal name of The Way in the UK. Nice of whoever to tell. And this company is kept up to date. "There are no Oversea Details associated with this company." Well...no such details declared, anyway. Maybe there is no "legal association" as in shares being owned by an oversea company. Here are some of the documents associated with the abovenamed company: 18/07/2012 18/07/12 STATEMENT OF CAPITAL;GBP 1000 02/08/2011 DIRECTOR'S CHANGE OF PARTICULARS / REVEREND STEPHEN PAUL CROMMETT / 28/06/2011 22/09/2010 DIRECTOR'S CHANGE OF PARTICULARS / JEAN YVES DE LISLE / 28/06/2010 22/09/2010 DIRECTOR'S CHANGE OF PARTICULARS / REVEREND STEPHEN PAUL CROMMETT / 28/06/2010 22/09/2010 DIRECTOR'S CHANGE OF PARTICULARS / ROSALIE FOX RIVENBARK / 28/06/2010 21/09/2010 SECRETARY'S CHANGE OF PARTICULARS / JEAN YVES DE LISLE / 28/06/2010 18/11/2009 DIRECTOR APPOINTED REVEREND STEPHEN PAUL CROMMETT 17/11/2009 APPOINTMENT TERMINATED, DIRECTOR ROGER MITTLER I'll leave it to you to see if there are any familiar names.......

Name & Registered Office: WORD PROMOTIONS LIMITED C/O ALEXANDER SLOAN, CHARTERED ACCOUNTANTS 38 CADOGAN STREET GLASGOW G2 7HF Company No. SC140876 Status: Active Date of Incorporation: 22/10/1992 Country of Origin: United Kingdom Company Type: Private Limited Company Nature of Business (SIC): 58110 - Book publishing Accounting Reference Date: 31/08 Last Accounts Made Up To: 31/08/2011 (TOTAL EXEMPTION SMALL) Next Accounts Due: 31/05/2013 Last Return Made Up To: 22/10/2011 Next Return Due: 19/11/2012 Last Members List: 22/10/2011