Twinky

Got a friend who's 47. He's never had a birthday. And this will be his first Christmas. Why? Because he was brought up as a Jehovah's Witness, and JWs don't celebrate either (a) birthdays or (b) Christmas ... (a) because there is no record of anybody celebrating birthdays in the Bible and very few references to age; and (b) because it's a pagan festival. Sad. Even the hardliner TWI celebrates both - albeit renaming Christmas as "Ho Ho" but complete with tree and decs. I do think it would be a nicer custom to celebrate birthdays by giving gifts instead of expecting to receive gifts; many choose to celebrate by paying for a big party, which is a way of giving.

I call the years between when they kicked me out, and when I discovered GSC and started to recover my mind, the "lost years." Sure I was there, and knew what I was doing, but I was in such a daze, depression, down the well, call it what you like, lights on but nobody home...lights not really on at all...the lost years... Life is sooooo good now :dance:/> :dance:/> :dance:/>

Interesting, don't you think, that the "chosen ones" - the faithful remnant - comprising the tribes of Judah and Benjamin inhabited the area which became known simply as "Judah." The breakaway tribes, the apostates, those who mingled with the people of the land - the ten northern tribes - they called themselves "Israel." So, those people who now inhabit the land and claim Jerusalem as their capital city - are they announcing their apostacy to the world? Why not call the land Judah if it is inhabited by Jews? I don't see many of them calling themselves Gaddites or Dannites or Manasseh-ites. Nor do you see the members of those other tribes claiming their own homeland. The logical thought is that the other tribes are now masquerading as "Arabs" in general and Palestinians in particular. Could they trace their bloodlines back? I honestly doubt any of them could really trace their bloodlines back to any of the 12 tribes. I am sure, however, they could trace back reasonably clearly over quite a number of generations, maybe 7 or 8.

Thanks for your posts, Krys. Interesting. Very kind of everyone to donate needed items. What weather hits the US usually arrives in Europe about 2 weeks later. Not usually the same strength, but generally much wetter after the long journey over the intervening ocean. Hence this last week we have had torrential rain, violent battering winds and generally scary weather. Weather forecasts have been good at predicting when, where and what time; local officials have erred on the side of caution, but there have still been drownings (some, one might say, almost self-inflicted; only a total idiot would drive through a ford with a raging stream up several feet on normal). An elderly woman was found drowned in her house earlier today in St Asaph, Wales. Trees and boughs from trees have caused the usual damage, including landing on and killing people. Rivers have reached record levels and in some places preventive flood defences have been employed for the first time ever. Most unusually in my city, the sodden ground has caused a landslip which has threatened centuries old houses (so therefore you can see that such landslips are rare); the river, which regularly floods, has reached a record level since its flood defences were improved in the 1960s. This violent weather is now passing over mainland Europe. We can expect reports of flooding and perhaps avalanches in mountainous areas. (I'm not making light of the problems you have...but you're not the only ones to suffer.)

Thanks, Human :) And here is another recipe: Twinky Survival Recipe Take 1 bottle of red wine (Merlot is quite nice) Take 1 Indian Readymeal Optional extra: some variety of cheesecake. Place Indian ready meal in microwave for about 10 mins or as specified on wrapper. Pour red wine into glasses. Eat and drink. Serve cheesecake a little later with coffee and/or brandy. Best enjoyed with at least one other person. Particularly good on Friday evenings.

Ah, you guys... I'm still around. And I'm the best Twinky you could ever find. :)

I wouldn't like to roast TWI at all. It would give one very bad indigestion. At the very least. I'd like to roast ... a nice leg of lamb ... or some pork ... and some pumpkin and other vegetables ... and some nice potatoes. Roast them, and make something useful. Yum.

You know, don't you, that "prosper" doesn't necessarily mean financially? A better meaning from our current vocabulary might be "thrive" - or just "do well". Plants in the garden can prosper. After a visit to someone, you might be asked if it was a prosperous visit - ie, did you have a nice time together? It's another of those words that VPW took out of context - he added a 20th century meaning to a 16th century word. And he chose a word that is very emotive in our day and time - isn't part of the American dream to do well financially for oneself? To build up material wealth? But what are we exhorted to do? This is how to prosper, from God's point of view: And this is how to lay up those treasures, explicitly: I do not see much there, about accreting money, physical wealth, to oneself. Interestingly, although money is mentioned in the extract from Timothy, it's not in context of tithing to one's church leaders, etc, as covered in the booklet Christians should be Prosperous - but in context of giving it away and being generous and sharing with unspecified others.

I think Rocky has it. You can see what's happening, but you can't make up your friend's mind. You can be ready with a shoulder to cry on. Remember how difficult it was for you, at times. Remember how traumatic it's been for some people whose stories you have read here. Be supportive and maybe you can find some other support for her - support groups or whatever. It's clear you don't like the husband much. Try not to slag him off too much, but it would be fair to draw parallels between how his behavior differs from that seen in Jesus and his followers (you already have the lowdown on that!). Pray for them both. You don't know what things have really gone into the husband's make-up that make him who he is, and why this cult he's joined satisfies his needs - what he finds there that satisfies. Be non-judgmental, but firm about boundaries that you will accept in his behavior if he visits you. Or if the wife does leave and seeks safety at your house.

That might not be a bad idea. Will see if I can fit one in. We're doing this at church as seeking release from the addiction of "self" and turning to God/Jesus to rescue us from our addition. Alternatively, to our addition to consumerism, shopping, anything else. I think that some people really don't "get it" even though it's made abundantly clear that this series isn't just in relation to alcohol use. I suppose you could say that many in the congregation are in denial that they are addicted to self-love, or to keeping up with the Joneses, or whatever else distracts them from being fully committed in all their lifestyle to Godly goals.

Thanks, newlife, really appreciate your comments. I understand AA started as a program based on Christian principles but the principles were widened a bit to accommodate non-Christians. Which is why some say things like "...God as we understood him." No program, church, class, whatever, will help those who are just "bums on seats" and not there to really learn or understand. That's probably why TWI went after "those who really want to know" - rather than spend time showing those who lurk in the fringes and showing them authentic Christianity.

My client that I mentioned had managed to give up (on his own) for 18 months after having been hospitalised and "dried out." His old friends and a disastrous relationship dragged him back into it. He tried recently to cut down drastically (on his own) and ended up being hospitalised again for a short period with "he says) the worst DTs the doctor had seen. He doesn't want that to happen again. If he finds the support he needs from AA, I'll be delighted for him. He seems to have the motivation. We all need support to change. Loving support. Speaking the truth in love. (Or at least kindness, maybe, from AA.) The Bible talks a lot about two by two - helping each other. Encouragement. Hey, go out today and find random people to say something encouraging to. And don't forget to speak kind and encouraging words to your spouse, your kids, your workmates... God bless and have a great day, y'all.

Are you sure you didn't mis-hear, Geisha? Sure that was "mystery," was it? Not "misery"?

I do advice work in a voluntary capacity. A man came in on Friday. He 'fesses up to being an alcoholic - started drinking at age 15, now 38. After years of not admitting a problem, he now acknowledges it and is determined to beat it. I had no hesitation in recommending him to get started with AA and get along to the meetings - even printed him a list straight from their website showing all nearby meetings. I hope it works out for him. I certainly don't think it will hinder or harm him. I would never have recommended this step to him without your helpful comments on this thread.

Hi Dot, nice to see you. You don't seem to have been around in a long time. Married life must be agreeing with you.

I don't know if VPW spoke against the 12 steps. I do know LCM spoke against the program, as being a counterfeit. As for VPW, reports here suggest he was an alcoholic who didn't recognize it, or recognized it and didn't care to do anything about it. (He was also addicted to nicotine - there's a Nicotine Anonymous set-up like the Alkies Anon groups). Maybe VPW had tried one or other programs and failed to stick to the program. (...or maybe not; if he had, he would surely have incorporated it into PFAL somehow.) I am sure that these programs have enough expertise to not only help people contain their cravings for whatever their additions are, but also to help them recognize associated physical illnesses (like recognizing signs of liver failure or lung disease) and encouraging participants to get medical attention and maintain any physical regimes that may also be necessary. In other words, they deal with an aspect of addiction but not all aspects - not liver or lung transplants, not expecting miraculous cures - not over-promising, but being there and being wholly supportive. Something to be learned from that, too. Not something you'd want to do, though, if you want to garner all the glory and all the attention (and all the money) to your own organization. Has anyone got any other "12 steps helped me/my acquaintance" stories in areas other than alcoholism? Overcoming drug addition, maybe, or overcoming other problems?

Yes, I'm sure one could become "addicted" to the meetings...friendship, companionship, likeminded people, wanting to be understood, not judged - same sort of thing that brings people into churches - or cults. Tonight at church was the 8th step in this "spiritual journey" that they're taking us on. I have to say, since starting this thread and considering all your replies, I've found this evenings talk (sermon) more helpful and listened to it in some different sort of way. The way the sermon series is being presented is: we're addicted to self. Addition to ego. To our greedy desires. To our "oil addiction" in use of cars, plastics, etc. Our addition to the "now" culture. Or maybe to computers, games, Facebook, etc, which are often used to substitute for real companionship with the people right there in front of you. The vicar in charge would like us to reflect on our lives, how to examine some of our barriers to God, and how we can become more open to God working in our lives.

Thanks for your contribution, Johniam, but it really would be more helpful if the topic remained a discussion about the 12 steps and whether they are useful or not.

Ham, it was the notes in the Companion Bible to Leviticus that got me interested in understanding the Bible more - the precision of the description for the tabernacle and its symbolism. If that can become rivetingly interesting, well ...! I had that book re-bound once - or was it twice? - so many notes all over it. I was given another when I graduated the WC. That one's still in pristine condition. I don't much read KJV now. I certainly wouldn't want to read any of the notes scribbled in the margins.

... Or any other illness - physical or mental. ... Or any other kind of problem, relationship, work, personal ... money... It was only "Believe what the Word says!" without the practical help to take the necessary action. I do have an acquaintance, a Christian man, who was alcoholic, into drugs too I think; he loves going to AA, speaks frequently at various meetings (not just at AA meetings) to help others overcome their addiction - in fact, seems to have made it his personal ministry. He knows what God has rescued him from and loves sharing his story with others. I think he sees AA as God's rescue plan for him. I feel encouraged by replies that indicate the success of this program. Another of those TWI stumbling blocks kicked to the kerb, I think.

Is how I remember it, too. The 12-step program is a "spiritual counterfeit." (Hmph!!) Good on your uncle, OS, for finally coming to his senses. OperaBuff, no Craig didn't have a drink problem. He had a food problem - overate and got very fat in the "fog years" - and then slimmed down pretty well.

Thanks, all, and Newlife especially, for your really thoughtful post. I think the real objection of LCM was to the phrase in steps 3 and 11: God as we understood Him. Our job is to teach fully and acc'rately who God is, doncha know! And that alone would help people. And step 4 requires thinking and introspection - not "action." Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves. Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out. TWI isn't good at giving real practical help to those who need it. Individuals are, yes, but the organization as a whole, no. And having to deal with people with complex problems (because addiction doesn't come alone) takes time - time that could be spent "moving the word." In addition, TWI isn't giving to allowing people time for introspective soul-searching. Quiet time meditating on the Word. It seems to me that to make "a searching and fearless moral inventory of" oneself can take a very long time. Yet not to do that, at least at some level, means the "old man nature" is simply dormant, not dead, in those areas where one doesn't allow the fullness of the new birth to take effect. 2 Cor 10:5,6 exhort us: How can you bring "every thought" into captivity, cast down every imagination etc, if you don't root out where such thoughts and imaginations come from? If you only keep stamping on the "thought" rather than considering why you keep getting such thoughts and then rooting that out, you're not really dealing with the problem. You're simply knocking on the door of the stronghold, not working out a strategy to destroy the stronghold itself.

LCM used to shout about what a counterfeit the 12 step program was/is. (Maybe he learned that from VPW, would he think of that himself?) I know nothing about this program personally; I do know a few people who have suffered from alcohol addiction who have found the AA program very helpful. I was very surprised, suspicious, freaked out .. to find that this is the subject of the current term's teachings at one of the churches that I attend. But this sermon series is about the 12 steps on our road to spiritual recovery and our increasing dependence on God ... weaning ourselves off addition to ego, self-centredness, and material obsessions (whatever they may be, including use of oil - fuel, plastics, etc). The sermon series is based on a book called Breathing Underwater by Richard Rohr These are the original Twelve Steps as published by Alcoholics Anonymous: We admitted we were powerless over alcohol—that our lives had become unmanageable. Came to believe that a power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves. Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs. Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings. Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others. Continued to take personal inventory, and when we were wrong, promptly admitted it. Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out. Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics, and to practice these principles in all our affairs. I wondered if any of you here have explored these 12 steps in a spiritual (Godly) way; or if any of you have experienced applying them as part of a program for some addition you've had?

Och, you remind me of things I'd forgotten ... how I was spied on when in rez and the times I retired at night reported to the Corps Coord and thence to LCM ... the frogmarching off to meetings with Craig or the CC - not for a facemelting but for a very quiet (chilling) reprimand and his pitiful sighs about my spiritual ability ... how horrified (if not to say terrified) I felt when after graduation I thought I might have to go back to HQ and work on staff ... the ultra-organization of one's time ... too much stuff that I am not going to dredge up. I live a nice life now, thanks, and truly feel that I am SERVING GOD AND SERVING HIS PEOPLE. And in return I feel genuinely loved by God, and genuinely cared for by people at my church. Oh and I make occasional mistakes along the line and people just smile lovingly and say, don't worry about it. Oh what a cop-out I am (NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!) !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Heh, no "appearance of illness" but actually severe illness. Lots of sorrow and disappointment ... mostly because he didn't get the enormous respect his ego demanded. Dirty snow - could that be, "the air was black with snow"? Never any reconciliation, though. Looking through a window - lots of very angry interviews...but not with sweethearts, only with the people he was supposed to care for. Maybe there is some truth in this "dram" thing, after all.