Twinky

Thought this was good, too: “My doubts started with a conversation I had with David Abitbol,” she says. Megan met David, an Israeli ...“I would ask him questions about Judaism, and he would ask me questions about church doctrine. One day, he asked a specific question about one of our signs—‘Death Penalty for Fags’—and I was arguing for the church’s position, that it was a Levitical punishment and as completely appropriate now as it was then. He said, ‘But Jesus said’—and I thought it was funny he was quoting Jesus—‘Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.’ And then he connected it to another member of the church who had done something that, according to the Old Testament, was also punishable by death. I realized that if the death penalty was instituted for any sin, you completely cut off the opportunity to repent. And that’s what Jesus was talking about.” In OT there are many instances of people through their actions being "worthy of death" - however, there aren't that many (whom we read about) who actually get executed. Mercy and grace attend us all. Thank God.

Many here can really empathize. :cryhug_1_:/> Been there, got the T-shirt (and the scars) and survived. Not only that, even "live abundantly!" I was struck by this sentence: "This, of course, assumes that the church’s teachings and God’s feelings are one and the same. And this, of course, assumes that the church’s interpretation of the Bible is infallible, that this much-debated document handed down over the centuries has, in 2013, been processed and understood correctly only by a small band of believers in Topeka. “Now?” Megan says. “That sounds crazy to me.”" 1 Cor 14:26 How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying...oh, let's just ignore this bit, too inconvenient. No wait, let's not ignore it...edifying means building. Let's tell 'em they must build the church, our church. They must bring in new recruits. Yep, that'll do it.

This really ought to be in Just Plain Silly but JPS isn't here any more... So who've we got masquerading as an animal at the Cafe? Ham, of course, who thinks he's a squirrel. Waysider, who currently thinks he's a frog, or more precisely, a puppet frog. RottieGrrl, a rottweiler. Wordwolf...a wolf. Me - a cat, Twinkletoes Catcup - another cat You might wonder what it says about the posters and the personality they want to project ...or maybe it's just that they like the animal in point.

:offtopic:/> Umm, Thomas...I know the USA likes to rule the world but since when did "UK, Australia, and NZ" become part of the US and Canada? Back on topic: No idea on numbers, but I know a few people in the UK who adhere to too many of the precepts without still "belonging" to TWI. As to their website: occasionally I take a look to see if anything has changed. All that happens is that its appearance gets more and more dated. There are (or were) a few videos up but even they are old. In today's world of mega-animation and interactive websites, TWI's is so static you'd think it was a statue.

And any horse would have the sense to stay away from an owner/master/trainer that ABUSED it. We were taught that our "horse sense" and all those "red flags" that warned us AWAY from the abuses of TWI were just our "thoughts" getting in the way. Instead of our God-given wisdom telling us to GET THE HECK OUT OF HERE. The only way TWI worked is to steal the good workmanship and words of good Godly men. But the example set - the living way - was so corrupt that THAT was what we should have fled from. Many here will agree that some of the words we were "taught" were helpful or informative. And many here will agree that many of the practices of TWI were destructive. C'm'on, John, you're so smart, help Waysider out and define "wisdom of the world" as you don't accept what you call "horse sense" as wisdom. Maybe you could define horse sense while you're about it.

C'm'on, Johniam. "Disdain the wisdom of the world"? Wisdom of the world might include instruction to look both ways before crossing a busy road. Wanna disdain that on a fast road? What about - say - doctors? Is their wisdom simply "of the world"? Have they not observed, learned, some things about our wonderful God-designed bodies, and have the wisdom to know that (say) eating some things is good, eating other things is bad? That smoking causes a lot of problems and it's wiser not to smoke? That it's good to take a little exercise - for its many benefits on human bodies? Maybe they learned that simply by observation and empirical reflections. Maybe God taught it to them. Does that then change it from "worldly wisdom" to "Godly wisdom"? How do you tell the two apart, when someone tells you to look both ways before crossing a busy road? What about - oh, so many things...John, use your God-given brain!!!!!!!!! Maybe God gave us brains to figure a few things out for ourselves? Maybe God taught a few things to doctors, teachers, parents, police officers, road sweepers, shopkeepers and other people in the area where you live, so that they can teach others? One thing VPW taught us (cough) was that "They'll read you before they read the book." If you read his lifestyle and expect that that represents the book - shoot, you really have been reading the wrong book. You don't read, in glowing terms, that abuse of other people is Godly - rather the opposite. You don't read that God enslaves, takes captive; oppresses so much that mental illness results and hearts are broken, lives lost. You read quite the opposite. And you see, in the life of Jesus, that he came to heal the broken hearted and to set captives free. Not exactly what VPW did - which would you rather believe? Which example is better to follow? Whose lifestyle better represents God? Whose lifestyle misrepresents God? And that's before we even think about any specific other things that VPW said, that misrepresented God.

The way things are going at the Cafe, before too much longer it'll be "Who remembers GSC?"

Ya talking about the snowfest or the legalize cannabis attitude? We had loads of deep snow here recently. I was walking around in a quiet part of the suburbs and was confronted by a larger than lifesize snow woman. I know it was a woman. She had shapely breasts with a necklace (leaf) dangling daintily between them, a lovely waist, a delightful come-hither smile and wide innocent looking eyes. Very counter-culture. Very well made too. (Probably all gone now.)

Only some ex-Way people, surely. Probably the majority have gone on to live relatively normal lives (whatever "normal" might be). In fact, you might even say that many ex Wayfers are more sceptical than the general populace regarding conspiracy theories and the latest snake-oil fad.

Here's one I heard today. I joined a community choir recently and the joke was somewhat in keeping... Q. How many sopranos does it take to change a lightbulb? A. Ten. One to attempt it, and 9 to stand around saying she can't reach it.

I hear ya, JJ. The good stuff - like better empathy etc. The lemonade from the lemons. And the bad stuff - that we all had and have to wade through to get to the empathy. But how is it that some people manage to develop the empathy and real heart for others, without having had to go through all that TWI dange? Were those of us who fell for TWI' and their methods especially bad at empathy, etc, and needed a specially tough dose of medicine?

Would be funny if it weren't so very true. That "thinking evil" stuff was a wicked way of making us all shut up - permanently. Perpetrated by the Father of Lies and foisted upon us by his ministering angels (heh, when did you ever see VPW, LCM and Rosie as ministering angels before, LOL?) Actually, JJ, you're a woman. And therefore fair game. OF COURSE they were out to get you. But you only realize that when you find out it was a common pattern. When you find GSC.

Right now I think my NY res has to be to get my tax return done by 31 Jan. Otherwise I get a fine of £100 plus interest on tax adjudicated outstanding. Happy New Year to y'all. May it be a peaceful but challenging year.

Absolutely NOT you, Tom! Was thinking about some people in the church I go to. And specifically some people in my house group. They think I'm weird when I say, Open up and talk to people! (Oh, we have to wait for and listen to the holy spirit before we speak to ..., you can't just start talking to people.) They think that because I do mention God to people, I'm a "real evangelist." No I'm not, I'm just saying what I think and what I do. I challenged this housegroup for the next week (just for one week) to say to people, perhaps upon parting, "God bless you." They thought that was a really difficult challenge. I don't think any of them managed it beyond two days. I frequently wonder why I was assigned to this housegroup. Should I believe (as I once believed at TWI) that that was God's will for my life? Or more pragmatically, that leadership in my church thought we were all more or less of an age (read "older people" - most of the group is retired, I'm not)? Or maybe it is God's will - to wake up these people to be more active in speaking out to new people. Actually they are all active - in the church. Serve meals, tea, coffee, sing, clean up, set out chairs, preach sermons, etc. They might talk of God to people in that "safe environment" but even then they're quite likely not to. Fine, but who gets the newbies through the door in the first place? A dear friend of mine is a Methodist minister. We had a long conversation over New Year. She has run, and will be running again, a short course to encourage people to speak out what God has done for them. It frustrates her that people in her congregation won't speak of what God has done even to each other. And yet they are a "lovely" congregation and welcoming to visitors. After last year's short course, they did speak out to each other just a little bit. For a little while. But mostly, they don't bring visitors/other people. I have to say, if someone simply says "God bless you!" to me, it always gives me a thrill. I want to talk to them.

It is a significant annoyance to me that people will speak of ... the football match, what was on TV last night, a movie they saw, what their kids are doing, and so on. But many Christians won't speak of what matters to them (or doesn't matter?) - how they saw someone healed, a great point from the sermon yesterday, deliverance seen in the church, exciting things happening. Some Christians think they have to "wait until the spirit prompts them" to speak. They speak of choosing their moment carefully. Yeah, so careful that after years some have never spoken to friends or colleagues of Christ. Some witness that is.... Why is it that there is no fear in speaking of secular things - and great fear in speaking of things Christian? Those enthusiastic for football (say) bore others to tears - but there's no doubting their commitment. But Christians? And in free countries? I can certainly see the "silent witness" in countries where speaking out is very dangerous and carries a significant risk of injury, long imprisonment or death - Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, some parts of China etc. But in most western countries? Where all there is to fear is that your neighbour might think you a crank? For fear is the only reason one would not speak up. Is it a hangover from TWI, or is it that I see complacency, and concern for what others think, as significant enemies in western society today? It's no surprise that the biggest, fastest, most enthusiastic growth in the church today is seen in formerly very repressive regimes - Russia, China, Korea - and in countries where there is a less desirable standard of living - some African countries. Living life, acting on what you know, and speaking what's really in your heart have to go hand in hand. It's not too difficult to say, "Thank you! God bless you!" if someone has done something nice for you - and it can be surprising what doors even such a gentle statement opens up.

Catcup, good to see you :wave:/>.

I sometimes think that churches are an excuse for people not getting involved in such things - they leave it to others - and it can end up with just a few doing all the Christian "outreach" type of work. I sometimes wonder how much the original Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Pastors and Teachers would recognize what passes for these people's ministries today. A lot of church ministers would like to be "pastors" or more often "teachers" and will openly state that they aren't any of the other people. I believe these gift ministries can operate in the body of the congregation as a whole, and the people often don't receive the recognition they deserve because they aren't "trained." The new minister in my church presented the church budget to the congregation recently. He ended with words approximating..."And these all need money to carry out, so increase your giving." No no no no no. These things the church wants to do require PEOPLE who are willing to undertake these tasks - not necessarily people who undertake these tasks and get paid for doing so. (For sure, someone to coordinate what's going on may have a full-time job on their hands and need some recompense.) We should want to be involved. To have an outworking of our love for God, our walking in the way Christ did. There is plenty of work to do. There are plenty of unreached people. And there are plenty of things that are perhaps shorter-term or less demanding in nature. Some people won't give in terms of themselves. Some people won't give in financial terms. And some won't give anything, either time or finances. They like to be passengers. So it would be better, if some of the latter group did give to help pay someone - but it doesn't really absolve them of the need to contribute themselves. One of our church ladies died recently. Sheila. Awesome woman. Sheila had MS, I think Americans call this Lou Gherig's Disease. Sheila took to a wheelchair at age 50 but was still active in the church. As she became less mobile, what she did reduced in physical activity but not in spiritual. In later years, she had a prayer book. She went to a Focus group and people wrote down what they would like prayers for. Sheila took the book home. Her carer turned the pages and Sheila read them, or was read to. She prayed for every one and every thing. She saw answers to prayer. Things happened. In the last couple of years she couldn't speak intelligibly, couldn't do a thing for herself. She could just smile. And pray. Her brain still worked, slowly, but it still worked, and she still believed. Until the day she died she believed for complete healing in her body. If anyone could have sat back and said they couldn't do anything to help the church, Sheila could have. No-one would have criticized her. But that's not what happened. She wasn't a passenger at anything. She was active until the very last day. Sheila was 73 when she died. She was joyful. She expected to receive a new body forthwith.

That strikes me very much as "not having a mortgage" - you don't have a mortgage because you borrowed from your parents and pay them back, ie, you get someone else to do the "dirty work." Rosalie can pride herself on not having a computer because basically she keeps it in someone else's office. :offtopic:/> On that note, I reckon if he'd been born in our time, Jesus would have been computer literate, had a computer and a mobile phone. Not sure he would have had a Facebook account though, too much else going on in his life. And certainly not a Twitter account.

Just found this entertaining thread. My current cats are called "Tuxedo" and "Crypto" - Tuxedo because she is all-black except for a white V on her chest, white toes (only - not feet), and white whiskers. Looks so beautiful. Other cat is Crypto because she spent her first three months with me hiding under the cabinets in the kitchen. She is all-black. My previous cat was called Twinkletoes - he was quick on his feet and would sneak into the house if the door was ever left open. Not just my door - anyone's door. He also adopted my next door neighbour - she called him John after her recently deceased husband. Very good at giving comfort, that cat...he first started appearing on my doorstep as a tiny kitten when I was utterly devastated after TWI. I needed something to love...and Twinkletoes invited himself in. (There's a thread in Pet Memoriam or whatever it's called, RIP Twinkletoes). Growing up, we had a cat called Mr Pod (no idea why, named before I was born) who was also known as Podgy (he was a bit fat). Lived to a very old age. Very affectionate cat. Later, I had a longhaired Persian cat - he was grey in lighter and darker stripes round his body and a darker stripe along his back. I called him Possum because I had an idea that that's what opossums look a bit like. (I don't know why I thought that) A place I used to stay was occupied by a man with one arm, who had a 3-legged cat. We called the cat Tripod...and tried not to call the man the same name...! Oh, Twinkletoes was later nicknamed Twinky...and when I needed a name here, that's what I eventually settled on. So I guess I'm named after a cat.

JJ, you surely have stamina. You managed two years on staff? At that period of TWI's existence? That takes stamina or complete numbness - and you weren't numb. Or dumb. I thought at one time they might call me onto staff. The thought made my skin crawl. I had to go on some seriously long walks with God to get my head round it and accept that as a possibility. The thought of it still makes my skin crawl. you've got stamina, girl. Live life to the full. Abundantly, in fact.

Gotta agree with you, Ron. Nothing much seems to have happened. Nobody "gathered" and everything seems to be working okay.

Or a New Start / New Era party. I know...let's have one in a couple of days time, give us chance to get organized. Let's call it ... a New Year's Eve party. :smilie_kool_aid:/>:smilie_kool_aid:/>

Thanks, Kit.

Hampshire, glad to have you here and glad to hear that your life is back on track now and you're enjoying it. Probably most of us here tried most of the options - and then some! - whatever it takes to get you over it. It's good to live life joyfully. :eusa_clap:/> :dance:/> A happy and peaceful new year to you.

I still think that "The Subtle Abuse of Spiritual Power" is a scary book - like they had taken the lid of TWI and were analyzing the contents. But actually it never refers to TWI at all and refers only to spiritual abuse in other organizations. Regrettably we find ourselves in a rather large company of abusees. Enjoy Kahler's book, OS.