Twinky

Bliss, it is sad that the staff at HQ so abused your family member and had so little respect for him as to take and squander his loving service for them. I perceive that that was his motivation... There is much more to "giving to God" than giving money or things. We should be giving in loving kindness, generosity of heart, and reliance upon God (to name but a few) and, as others say, we will get those things back in abundance. There were some awesomely wonderfully giving, generous, genuinely helpful and caring, people at and associated with HQ. Mostly they were people at lower levels, people who came in for SNS or events, and such like. Those higher up the leadership ladder began to expect what was given in good heart, as their right to demand. They themselves didn't know how to give - nor how to receive. Don't know how to give physically, don't know how to give "heartily" - hence all the "loving" tongue-lashings and vilification and excommunication of those who didn't adhere to the party line. Those are the ones who blamed the victim for mishaps, for illness, for undesirable things happening in life. Unfortunately this attitude did permeate to some of the lower levels. It's an attitude that leads to abuse and "taking advantage" and overlording. It is also not confined simply to TWI. The way in which giving and receiving was taught in TWI was, like so much else, too shallow, too materialistic. It's not simply a question of putting a dollar in the box and expecting ten dollars to materialise in your pocket (that would be trying to buy or bribe God!), any more than expecting instant results with anything else. Sure, there are instant healings and instant other responses to prayer recorded in the Bible; and sometimes things took longer. As those who pray for anything in our day and time also find. Sometimes the answers to prayers (or the response to actions) comes years later...maybe not even in one's own lifetime. If your family member looks back on that time, he may well find that he has learned some things that stand him in good stead now...not just about money, but about hypocrisy, honesty, and giving in general. And about not listening solely to what church leaders say about God, but in building his own relationship with Him (even if he did walk away thinking it was all "hooey"). I hope it hasn't put him off being a giving person and he hasn't become a greedy b*******.

That doesn't look a comfortable place to be (shiver!) Actually I saw a letter today in my local paper - presumably sent to many newspapers, local and national - from an Animal Aid charity explaining that this challenge isn't a good idea from the animal welfare point of view. The funds raised go to research into Motor Neurone Disease (aka ALS in the USA) - and that research takes place on animals. According to this letter, only one animal experiment out of many has shown some (dubious) positive results. Here is the text of the letter:

Oh well, everything within reason. Don't go collecting the wrappers from every candy bar you eat. We'll think you have Asperger's Syndrome if that happens.

Ice bucket challenge seems to have been picked up in the UK by the Macmillan Society (cancer research and support charity). The Motor Neurone Society isn't best pleased.

You've got some great photos and really intimate facial portraits. Lovely. (even the calf lets you see what it's thinking...it has a little ... anxiety ... about what's happening)

Allan, it could have been really interesting if your rellies had treated it as a normal church housegroup, where people can interject and discuss the topic, refer to external sources, and say, "Well, I think it means..." or "What about [some different related section of scripture]? How does that fit with what you're saying about ..." How nice it is to have freedom of speech!

Every point of view (or set of beliefs) has a load of assumptions attached to it. Some of those assumptions are right, some are wrong...some might even be somewhere in between. It's no bad thing to examine and investigate assumptions and reassess one's PoV. If you are confident in your assumptions then you should be able to debate with someone with different assumptions, and one or both can change their minds or retain the same PoV. It's not a bad thing to air assumptions. And to test out one's critical thinking ability and interpretation of those assumptions - heck, our critical thinking ability was pulverised enough in TWI. You can probably pick up a load of Bible commentaries that will come up with yet other PoVs, explanations about why this did or did not occur - the flood, and historical inaccuracies and anomalies, for example. Some of those appear to be more "wish list" than "what happened.". I welcome Raf's "actual errors in Genesis" commentary. He might be right. He might be wrong. He's stated his assumptions. No need to shoot the messenger, if the message is wrong. Maybe the message was wrongly recorded by someone else before it got to this particular messenger (Raf). "Maybe" lotsa things (shrugs). But to think about what might underlie the Biblical record and the truths or errors therein, is no bad thing. (And nobody shoot me either, please. I'm just saying - get back on track, let Raf have his say, and consider what he says on its own merit)

And even later than that, it became "Acquire an in-depth spiritual perception and awareness of the Word." Kinda, when they realised that common sense had totally vacated TWI thinking, they changed their definitions ... again.

Just looked at what the video was for point 32. If only the tantrums in TWI were that mellow. Instead of spitfests and vile language.

Sure it makes room for them, excie. Makes room for them in the punishment cell. They used talents and abilities and secular skills if it suited them but woe betide you if you had some better skill than the leader of your work group. If you could point out a better way to do something, then you were "leaning to your own understanding" and not listening to the work group leader, who had the revelation on the best way to do any task. Yeah right.

There is therefore now great condemnation to them that are in The Way Ministry. Always.

Is it not that the first 5 books were attributed to Moses (ie not written by him) and only some time later actually written? (In the same way that the gospels were circulating as oral stories rather than written ones for quite some time before being committed to papyrus). Some say the "Moses" (and other) books were actually written down by scribes retained by Soloman. Others say that these books were redacted by scribes in the Ezra/Nehemiah restoration period. And by either time, camels would have been domesticated and would have been a symbol of wealth. So would that then be adding something later that demonstrated the wealth at the preceeding time? (You could say, for example, that the Conquistadors had "thousands of doubloons" to spend on their invasions...wouldn't mean as much as if you said they had "millions of dollars," which conveys the value/amount better.) Some versions of the Bible in the English language attempt to do something similar by substituting common names - pounds (weight) for example or inches (as cubits don't mean much nowadays to the average reader). Whose image is this on this "penny"? But that isn't what the unit of currency was called (denarius), and neither does the apparent value (penny) convey the amount/meaning, which was actually a day's wage. In our time, we might have said, whose image is this on this $50 / $100 bill? So perhaps saying Abraham had camels might be a reasonable way then of expressing his wealth, that "communicated" at the time the books were written down. Maybe nowadays we'd say that he had top-of-the-line motor vehicles, luxury yachts, transport fleets, or football teams. Or Cayman Islands bank accounts. He was uber-rich.

IIRC is "If I Remember Correctly" Google is a wonderful thing. I wondered that, too.

Thomas, look at the dates. Steve posted well before Raf's latest thread on Genesis.

:offtopic:/> You're surely not telling me that in litigious ole USA people were not required to have at least third party vehicle insurance? What happened if someone had a vehicle accident where a victim was seriously injured? Does the vehicle driver sell his house, wife and kids to pay the medical bills, or just declare bankruptcy? Or are you talking about comprehensive insurance, which covers third parties and also one's own vehicle? Actually, at least in the UK, that's (perversely) often cheaper than TP-only insurance. What a false economy - not to get insurance.

Wasn't The Way's view that the earth was created - some time - and became void and without form (tohu bohu). Then, some undefined time later, the spirit of God breathed on the waters and all the things in Genesis took place and that was 6000 years ago. And creation of the things that we know took place. Didn't that wellknown playwright sorry plagiarist VPW declare that dinosaurs etc occurred in the time before tohu bohu, way before the 6000 that the earth as we know it was (re-)created? I have trouble with the firmament as a sort of membrane holding back earth-sized quantities of water. Much more it's something figurative or, as you put it Raf, the Hebrew worldview of the time. And WW, what you write may or may not be true. We don't have the length of knowledge to say that (yet). Granted, it seems plausible to us all now. Maybe theories will change in 300 years time. Just as 300 years ago you would have believed, quite reasonably, something different from the current Earth-story.

One month later: The underlings were highly skilled when he wanted them to be - and inexperienced and useless when he didn't want them to be. Sound familiar? Blatantly disregards orders. Both in the incident Waysider reported, and in the extract above, just a month later. Sound familiar? Brought to book( and even relieved of his command) - so goes and starts up something he can command - absolutely. Sound familiar?

Nice one, Excie.

Strange, but all these reports of clergy refusing to pray for unbelievers/those who no longer fellowship brings (now) to mind that dozy PFAL story of the man who heard VPW was on the train and sought prayer "but I do not believe in your Jesus." And the man was healed. And VPW was granted the freedom of the city. If the story is even remotely true, it shows VPW or some of the entourage was willing to pray for this unbeliever male - not only that, but that the pray-er expected the prayer to be answered. Which is apparently was. And yet - that is so not the behaviour of TWI as a whole. Pray for unbelievers? Pah! Pray for those who no longer fellowship with the Way? Double Pah! Forget it! Did Jesus pray with the Samaritan woman whom he met at the wellside? Doesn't say. Did he pray with the citizens of Samaria, when he'd stayed for a little while? Again, doesn't say. But as he was welcomed to preach and teach, it would be surprising if he didn't pray with some of them. And also teach them how to pray for themselves. ... Spot the difference ... !

Unbelievable!! :confused:/> The rain falls on good and bad alike - but clearly prayers don't ...

I occasionally look at online Daily Bread and this week’s topic is the book of Job. There is an introductory section outlining the background to the book. This includes the following: I’ve heard in TWI teaching of Satan the Accuser – never that it is some sort of functional or legal role. And I thought of Jesus being our Righteous Advocate- always there, defending us. His role, his position, his choice. I think maybe TWI might have described him as our Defence Attorney. Also, (the) satan had come into God’s presence from walking to and fro upon the earth. But Jesus is always there, always ready to defend. He doesn’t need to walk about to and fro. Hmm. I’ve never seen these roles put together quite like this and thought the juxtaposition was interesting and brought out a new aspect of the “role” of both. A new perspective. Or perhaps that’s just my legal background speaking.

Bumping this up. I just found this thread by accident today. Shocking.

newlife, I understand your problem here. Something I wrestle with too. I feel I know God ... but Jesus? Sometimes. Not enough. A one-time poster here recommended a teaching in March 2014 by K Guigou at CFFM. He talks about this very thing. And talks about praying to Jesus and getting to know him, Jesus, more clearly. I found it helpful. And (being Kevin) you know what his background is and where he's coming from. Here's a link: Guigou teaching (Try to ignore the applause and standing ovation - other recent threads in this forum refer.)

Soon after I got into TWI (which was in the UK of course), Gartmore was purchased and many of the Brit believers went up to help get it ready one way and there was an opening ceremony. We slept on camp beds in the gym which also doubled as the auditorium. Quite good fun. But then, the gym turned into the auditorium with a stage and lecturn etc. I was with some WoWs and we ended up in the front few rows. Enter CG at stage right. Everyone stood up for his entrance and applauded. I was bewildered by this but at the prodding of the WoWs who'd brought me, also stood up. And this beaming EGO bounced onto the stage, basking in the applause, and then gently shushing the congregation whilst egging them on a bit too. It gave me the creeps. Other things happened and I rapidly understood that very weekend that he said one thing publicly and was quite different (nastily so) privately. I saw right through him that weekend. I was unsurprised when the split from Ohio took place. No decision for me.

Time to go to Soap Opera, methinks.