Twinky

Is that a dig at someone, John? The Healer of Broken Hearts surely can bind them together again. There sometimes remains scars; you can remember why the scar is there. Maybe the scar is a little tender, so you avoid touching it. Maybe the scar is not fully formed yet, and underneath still hurts. Maybe the scar is in a really obvious place and you can't avoid encountering it daily.

I looked at that post-cult website; there was an introduction by 4 of them (lasts just over an hour) - they could have been us. Their cults chose different scripture verses to hang their hats on, but the treatment was just the same. And these are highly intelligent, well educated people - one even had several years seminary teaching before she got drawn into "her" cult. I've bookmarked the site for further reference.

I looked at that Cult Awareness site too. And yes - they could have been us. Well-educated people too - before they went in - got more quals afterwards. Having smarts doesn't mean you don't get fooled. VPW and all these cult leaders - need us more than we need them, actually. Without followers, they can't lead. Can't bully. VPW started with a few problems in life. Hit upon something that didn't require a lot of physical work. Stole the materials so he didn't need to do the mental work. Got a few followers, his ego grew, no-one to keep it in check, ego got bigger, got more followers, ego got bigger, and so on. Enough material to keep people interested while he perfected his bullying techniques and the co-dependency with his followers.

Well, you uncouth person, Jim. Definitely worthy of being hung, drawn and quartered. You got off lightly. :evilshades:/> The "throw you all out" thing was standard fare. Wouldn't be at all surprised to learn that it was actually scheduled for about 3 or 4 months into every program. In rez, WD, WoW, whatever. Bloody fools, the lot of them. ...and us, too, for playing along.

Sounds like a typical in-rez Corps Coord trick. Get y'all together and then say you're not good enough and you will all be thrown out. Look sad or hurt by the pitiful bunch of [slaves] in front of you. Get them all ansty. Then "forgive" them and let them back, if they work harder/are more committed/drink more KoolAid. Thing is with this one - it's always the peons who are to blame. Never the CC or WoW Coord or other higher-up, because of his poor leadership. In fact, it seems that the peons are dragging this top-flight super-duper leader down. :smilie_kool_aid:/> <<Kool-Aid

Slow learners, cats, I think, Keith. Slow trusters, certainly. My girlies have been with me since they were about 15 months old and were born at the Cats Protection League. Their mother was fierce and attacked the carer regularly, hence the girlies were not fondled as very young kittens - has to be done within the first few weeks of life, when they learn that it's okay. When I got them, it was three weeks before I had a glimpse of Tuxedo, and three MONTHS before I saw Crypto, and that's with them living in my small kitchen! They are still very wary of anyone who isn't me and hide - most people don't realise I have cats at all. I long for the day mine behave like your BJ. He sounds cute.

Here I am, back on this really old thread now. Some more progress. Tuxedo has this week started to jump onto my lap and push around wanting fondles. Yep, she jumps up entirely voluntarily. And she is pushy wanting the fondles. Hasn't decided to sit or settle on my lap, but perhaps that is to come. Other cat Crypto is still wary but does allow me to walk by the food bowl - well, 2ft from it - without taking off and hiding now. Stupid creature, she knows I put the food there! I was putting food out one day recently and without thinking really, just seized the nearest cat, which happened to be Crypto, and parked her on my lap. She didn't fight me but allowed me to stroke her. Leaped off at the first opportunity, though, and was wary of me for the next two or three days. They must be 7 or 8 years old now (oh hello Tuxy on my lap) - you'd really think that by now they'd have got the message that I'm not going to hurt them.

Just another example of their outrageous hypocrisy. But no, we have to have a decorated tree (a pagan custom, tree being symbol of fertility - oops, giveaway!) and give little gifts (I still have a couple of (used) slim diaries that were gifts from Dorothea or Mrs Owens or some such). And a day or two off. But on what TWI states is the true birthdate of JC - is there a celebration of any kind? No! I knew a Corps girl who was always happy to work/be on call on Christmas Day. She didn't see it as a holiday/celebratory day but knew others did - so she volunteered - and got double or triple pay for it. Heh, heh. Good for her. Rewarded for her beliefs, if you will.

I second (or third) what JJ said, and that's why I never read AV (KJV) any more, too many tainted word studies. I think: The thief - TWI - but there really is a much more abundant life there, working with genuine Christians who truly love God and Jesus. And with that, I have peace of mind - which is life more (than) abundant.

"I" (meaning Jesus). and "life to the full" (other versions, not AV).

It's not just Christian cults. There are all sorts of cults. The ones that bother me at the moment are the Muslim cults, the ones that talk terrorism and "training" overseas. These young people that go on their misguided trips to "fight" for their beliefs are just as badly treated as we were, wrongly taught in the mosques by leaders who hide behind a face of legitimacy. I do not believe that mainstream Muslims condone such behavior and no doubt many of those kids' parents are just as appalled and concerned as our own parents were as our involvement in TWI increased. Heck, I myself went "overseas" for "training" and we did weapons training. You could make something of that! Prior to my time there were those MALpacks in preparation for a warlike status. You could require leaders of small groups to be properly educated/accredited - by a reputable organisation - but where do you draw the lines there? VPW had a fake doctorate degree but perhaps a real theological degree (to be accepted as a priest in Van Wert). DonW did have a degree and reputable status as a teacher. But what if it's just a cult around guns where people develop outrageous ideas? Or around motor vehicles? Or flying planes? Very difficult to legislate for those who hide behind the scenes.

Too many facemeltings to think of one single reason. However...was on housekeeping once, and cleaning in the Auditorium. Was told that I needed to get in the creases of the steps, working my fingers deeply into the crease to remove dust, etc. Not to just use the crevice tool on the vac. The inevitable happened - I ripped a finger on the gripper rod - only slight, but it bled quite well for a while. I asked for a band-aid to staunch the flow as I didn't want to get blood droplets on the carpet. Guess whose fault following instruction and thus ripping my finger was? Wish I'd just wrapped a tissue round it and kept my mouth shut about the injury.

No sh!t, Allan. For real? Who was that, W@yne?

That's pretty much the way I explain it too, if anyone asks, which is rare. I don't mind telling people I had been part of an abusive Christian church, but few and far between are the people who enquire further. Notably, ones who are least sympathetic have been a few ex-Wayfers near where I live. They all left voluntarily - having done little more than gone WoW and so not been involved in major set-tos at higher levels. It was reasonably sweet in this country, far away enough from Ohio's reach unless you encountered a lot of US-trained WC, until CG came and set up at Gartmore, and then things got really noxious, and the E-corps was noxious too. Those local ex Wayfers don't want to hear how bad TWI was nor do they really understand how difficult life has been (for me) as a result of TWI's cruelty. In my church, people are busy with church life - but in the parent church to my current church, it was the quality of the sermons that caused tears of relief to run down my cheeks. Every week, for six months. I didn't need to talk to anyone, but those near me usually asked if they could so anything to help, when they saw me crying. Friends at church have asked about it (they've seen the effects) and listen and offer sympathetic noises. They've made some effort to understand but don't quite get the interweaving and entanglement and blighting of all one's thinking processes. Only one person has really tried to understand and truly wanted to know more. He has made a very good job of understanding, too, and really does recognise the impact (and continuing effects) upon my life. It may be that's because (one of) his roles in the church is as the Child Protection Officer, checking creds of people who do children's ministry or come into contact with children in small group settings, etc, and so is therefore more aware of the devastating effects of abuse of trust. Perhaps we are ashamed to talk of our "perceived gullibility" at being sucked into a cult? Perhaps we have been hurt and half-expect others to hurt us again, like TWI did? Perhaps we are hiding this unpleasant time of our lives? And undoubtedly most people just really don't want to know. They really don't want to take the time to understand. Perhaps it's hard enough to understand their own thinking processes, without trying to understand someone else's.

And then you'd have a shedload of people jumping up and down and saying that it was unconstitutional, and that the constitution guaranteed freedom of religion. If you are talking about (pseudo) religious cults like TWI, the answer is surely in more mainstream churches, to teach and live the gospel more effectively. If taught properly, thoroughly, and with conviction, then potential cult joiners will know when something has been perverted; if lived effectively, there will be both a calm expectation and a joyful excitement about daily life. It was the zeal for life, and the lifestyle, that drew people to the early Christian church. Where's that, in many churches today?

I saw the Dr Phil item. I felt really ill during and after watching. Even with an understanding of the background/cult indoctrination. I'd imagine the feelings of the general non-Wayfer population would waver between total incredulity and furious rage. I liked that Dr Phil offered Lindsay some counseling to help her get over it. But not just offered to the "Maiden" - he also offered counseling to the father, Carmen, to help him come to terms with his own responsibilities and failures. Notably the mother wasn't featured in the interview. She's just as culpable as the father.

Not to mention that burning oil and petrochemicals releases stuff into the environment that doesn't "vanish" but merely vanishes from obvious view. Global warming? Hole in the ozone layer? There might be enough fuel; is there enough clean air, or clean water (as Waysider points out), and what becomes of the waste products? It befits us all to be cautious and sparing with what we use. Nuclear power, for example, is considered clean energy. Yeah, right. Just leave the debris for future generations to deal with. We're smart enough to make the stuff but not smart enough to deal with the waste in a totally harmless way. PS I just got back from the US. You pay only $2.60/gallon for gas? (and less in Texas) The equivalent volume in the UK would cost around a staggering US$7.30/US gallon at current Brit prices. Wince at that one.

You might find this article in Wikipedia helpful: Cult It's quite lengthy, but readable, and the main theme is about "deviant" beliefs ie, beliefs that deviate from norms - eg, deviate from Christian norms (but cults can and do exist around many beliefs - extremist Muslim beliefs, beliefs in extra-terrestrials, political views, TV programs, or even that one type of motorcycle or car is "better" than another). Here's an extract, from the introduction to the Wikipedia article: From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia In the sociological classifications of religious movements, a cult is a religious or other social group with socially deviant and novel beliefs and practices. However, whether any particular group's beliefs and practices are sufficiently deviant or novel is often unclear, and thus establishing a precise definition based on these criteria is problematic. The English word often carries derogatory connotations. The word "cult" has been controversial. One reason is that it (as used in the pejorative sense) is considered a subjective term, used as an ad hominem attack against groups with simply differing doctrines or practices, and without a clear or consistent definition. It has also been used selectively by proponents of mind control theory. Beginning in the 1930s cults became the object of sociological study in the context of the study of religious behavior. Certain groups have been labeled as cults and opposed by the Christian countercult movement for their unorthodox beliefs …

LCM took it to a new level, Rocky. The man was perpetually furious (aka spiritually angry). And his "teachings" were full of vitriol and vile language. (I learned some horrible swear words and expressions.) Yeah, LCM was a great Christian witness.

And yet ... ancient rabbinical teaching was based very much on the question/answer/dialog model. We see the young Jesus sitting at the feet of the temple leaders of the day - and they were amazed at his ability - his questions, responses, etc. I'm sure the young Jesus asked some very challenging and searching questions. And he probably got honest attempts to answer those questions, too. And since that was the modus operandi for teaching - it appears to have carried through into Jesus's ministry and that of the apostles. That is - those very apostles who set up the first century church that TWI supposedly modeled itself on.

If the way that a husband treated his wife is supposed to personify how Christ tends his "bride", the church - wow, I don't want to know that Christ - as personified by VPW, LCM and other "leaders". But as to how I see some church ministers today interact with their spouses - tenderly, courteously, respectfully, and giving appropriate honor - now, that's the Christ I want to know.

Thanks for posting that, Charlene. I wonder how long it will take before TWI starts proceedings or some other effort to get this removed? Someone ought to post this on the FB page for VPW's followers: FB page It's a closed group so I can't do it. I doubt it would last long there.

Interesting... It is (was) a "research, teaching and fellowship" ministry. Well...we know the research was plagiarism. Teaching...well that they abundantly, nay beyond abundantly, shared. Fellowship...was great at lower levels. Note what it is NOT: > Not a practical ministry > Not a "service" ministry > Not a healing or deliverance ministry > Not even a Christian "outreach" ministry!! A Christian organisation that I volunteer with has the strapline: Caring, Listening, Helping. And that's exactly what we do. A different Christian organisation that I volunteer with has the strapline: Compassion in Action. And that's exactly it does. Compare and contrast with "research, teaching and fellowship."

Newlife, it is a lovely location and an impressive big house. Which was run down at the time of TWI purchase. As well as the big house, there was a less pretty functional block the other side of a large parking area. This block housed a gymnasium and several classrooms/ offices. When first purchased, believers came from all over the UK and near-Europe and we slept on camp beds in rows in the gymnasium. There were some showers in the main house but not enough hot water. Nobody cared; we were glad to be there. As the months went by, the place gradually got upgraded. It was sold off quite a long time ago and became a Christian conference centre. It seems to be in other hands now. No doubt it was sold at a fair profit (having been upgraded). I wonder who got the sale proceeds? Probably not the Way in GB or the Way of the UK or whatever they were calling themselves at that point. Interestingly I found this website: The Way and it's NOTHING NEAR that organisation!!!!

Raf! CG impressed you?? :confused:/> with what??