Twinky

Anybody heard of George MacIver? Seems to be an American Wayfer who's historically had some Brit connection(s). By accident, I came across this website today: The Teacher Seems to fancy himself as some great one. No specifics on the site as to who runs it, though. Comments on a green card please.

I have come to see that this was a technique that was applied to all in-rez Corps programs - possibly WoW or FL and other programs, whatever was running at the time. Look for some aspect that hadn't been done as well, or got the demanded results, then slam the whole group, tell 'em they were all spiritually asleep and not good enough, threaten to throw them all out, and keep them stewing for a little while. Then, when they feel suitably anxious (don't forget, many had given up decent jobs, housing, and alienated or burned bridges with family and friends), then "graciously" accept them back on sufferance. They'd all be so grateful that the rest of the training (indoctrination) could be ratcheted up a notch or two. It's just bullying and manipulation. And those who refused to be manipulated (theyd had enough and actually packed their bags and left) - well, they obviously weren't the gullible ones that TWI sought to indoctrinate. Those folks were still useful, though, because you could call them spiritual weaklings (when in fact they were quite the opposite) or homosexuals or cop-outs or whatever other slander you choose, before you say that God wouldn't even spit in their direction but call them brave or foolish (or some such) for stepping out of the protection of God's household. More manipulation.

Two good posts at #39 and 40, MRAP. Glad you were able to get out. "Ship" on those who banned your friends and guests from attending your wedding. Despite what we were taught - fear can be healthy inasmuch as it gets us to think about what's going on. And having thought, we can decide to fight or flee. But like so many of our "gut responses" this is one we were taught very early in PFAL to ignore. So the "unease" (aka "red flags") that we had was quashed before it got to full-grown fear of leadership (because that would be giving place to the devil). And, unseen and hidden, it became a fear of doing or saying the wrong thing.

Thanks, Oakspear. EVANGELIST (PREACHER ?) from euangelizo ... eu = good; angelizo = bring tidings, messages I can see "Preacher" as one who brings forth good tidings, or messages. Though all Christians should be bringers of good (or glad) tidings. It would be true to say that some people appear to be particularly adept at what we call preaching, giving the good message from a pulpit or similar. Others are perhaps more adept at speaking to other people on a smaller basis, maybe one on one, and giving them the good word, the message of hope, or whatever you want to call it. So both could reasonably be called Evangelists. PASTOR Occurs only once in the NT and then in the plural, in our passage about the gift ministries. Poimen = uncertain origin, but translated "shepherd(s)" every time except this one occasion where it is translated as Pastors. I'd agree with you, Oakspear, that a wedding officiant is hardly a "shepherd" to the wedding couple, nor a pastor to the same. More inthe nature of (administrative) "helps" - if anything :)

From a previous thread: Engendering this response from DWBH: Perhaps we could have a sensible discussion about those famous "gift ministries" – Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Pastors and Teachers. And let's not forget about these other "gift ministries" that got very little press in TWI: From this whole chapter (sometimes headed Concerning Spiritual Gifts) we see again that there are Apostles, Prophets, Teachers – and also Workers of Miracles, Healers, Guides, and Speakers in Tongues. No mention of Pastors or Evangelists! But lots of mention of other "gift ministries." PLEASE PUT ASIDE ALL TWI-TYPE DEFINITIONS and let's see how mainstream churches (if such a thing exists) defines in particular these ministries " – Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Pastors and Teachers. Who are these people (if they are still existing today) and what is their role? Who decides this? How? What "qualifies" them for these roles? Are the people of both sexes or are only males considered suitable? Has any prophet spoken something that should/should not be done and it has observably come to pass yet? Or is a prophet simply someone of special wisdom? Maybe you go to a church where it is believed that these roles don't exist/ died out with the first bunch in C1. Have you formulated an idea of what these people did? Say what you want and if you want to define any role, please make it clear what role or roles you are discussing. I accept DWBH's point that there are no limitations or qualifications from God's point of view. However, there has to be some particular thing that makes these particularly gifted people different, or more outstanding, in that role, from the general congregation. Otherwise, we would all be doing the same thing, with the risk of there being uncertain sounds and us being clanging cymbals (1 Cor 13). I TRULY DON'T WANT THIS TO BE A TWI-BASHING THREAD – can we have a sensible unhistrionic discussion please?

I agree with you, Skyrider, that there could be pressures within twigs. A lot depended on the maturity of the people running the twigs. It was suggested to me that I give up my professional training (a two-year fixed contract) that would secure my professional career (that already had four years hard study preceding; I was one year into my prof training at the time. Idiots!!! (Of course I didn't give up my job; I gave up that twig!) They could have prayed that the manipulative senior partner, bent upon deriding his junior staff, would have a change of heart... or I could be kept out of his orbit... or ... something. But no, that didn't occur to them. Other people were more supportive including a lovely Corps couple whom perhaps you'd know. They were a bit older and very sensible. Other twigs do seem to have had genuine kindly support - with no pressure. But again - I'm talking of locations outside the USA.

We've been here before, Skyrider. A lot of people enjoyed the people in their twig and genuinely felt friendship and support from them. It was when one progressed from twig level that stuff really started to get pressurised. Which is not to say that twig leaders couldn't exert pressure, subtly or overtly, if they wanted to... the more overt were usually Corps-led twigs - but not all of them. I think also how far one was from HQ mattered, too. Or maybe that's more of an international perspective. If you live overseas, you might see an expectation build to go to the Rock - but not to SNS or to the big HQ events.

Good, everyone just stop name-calling and personal abuse. Stick to the topic in hand and it will all be so much more legible and understandable.

What's your take on what/who an Apostle is, then, DWBH? This might be a suitable time to re-visit "all" the VPW definitions of these God-given gifts to the church. Here's a definition of Apostle from the Bible Dictionary: Apostle which has a connotation of a person who is "sent" or "sent out" to do someone else's bidding.

MRAP, you started this thread with comments about John 11. How's about you start a thread in Doctrinal or some other appropriate place, stating what your thoughts are, quoting the REV verses you want to discuss, and expounding with your own comments on the verse(s) you want to discuss? Maybe that will engender a thread that stays more on topic and (as you seemed to want) to point out inconsistencies (or accuracies) on the REV version of that chapter.

Ya mean, if I say Raf Raf RAF, you suddenly appear in ghostly striped attire and wreak havoc (more than there usually is here?)?

It's good to have another look, and to think for yourself, Tom. I have met some awesome trinis and see they get prayers answered. They sincerely love God and you can see God at work in and through them. I have met some awesome NON trinis (though far fewer non-Ts) and see they also get prayers answered. They sincerely love God and you can see God at work in and through them, too. Conclusion: God and Jesus Christ have patience to put up with puny confused humans. They know we get things wrong. They aren't concerned so much about the details, as the heart to serve. It's important for us all (including that atheist Raf) ( :) ) to know what we believe, and why. Enjoy people with differing viewpoints. Don't start a war over it. Search diligently, open-mindedly, and use your (God-given) critical thinking. Life is more interesting without Kool-Aid. Or (alternative conclusion, that Raf might prefer) - neither God nor Jesus Christ exists. :evilshades:/>

There certainly are some radical trinis out there. I went to a local evening Bible school (to try to get a different non-Way view of things). There were a variety of teachers from different churchy backgrounds – it was interesting considering their points of view, some of which I would run by other churchmen whose views I had come to really respect. One of these teachers had the idea that Jesus was walking about in the OT and specifically referred to Dan3:25, where Jesus himself is in the furnace with Daniel and his buddies. Hmm. Give that one to your pastor, Tom. He’ll like it. Others think it hilarious.

If "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth Jesus is God, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him [Jesus] from the dead, thou shalt be saved " (based on KJV verse), then who exactly raised Jesus? Why not simply say, "If thou shalt confess with thy mouth Jesus is God, and shalt believe in thine heart that he arose from the dead…" There, right there in the verse, is the pointer to an outside agency, not Jesus as God. Did Jesus-God's power fail, then? Did Jesus-God not know how to pre-program his resurrection? You're talking about the creator of the universe, the "hands that flung stars into space" (one popular current song, gag, gag) – and he can't get up in the morning? Does Jesus-God have to rely on one of his side-kicks for a bit of extra help? "Lord" KJV Translation Count — Total: 748x The KJV translates Strongs G2962 in the following manner: Lord (667x), lord (54x), master (11x), sir (6x), Sir (6x), misc (4x). Outline of Biblical Usage [The Outline of Biblical Usage was created by Larry Pierce, creator of the Online Bible, and is used with permission.] (see my note below) he to whom a person or thing belongs, about which he has power of deciding; master, lord the possessor and disposer of a thing the owner; one who has control of the person, the master in the state: the sovereign, prince, chief, the Roman emperor [*]is a title of honour expressive of respect and reverence, with which servants greet their master[*]this title is given to: God, the Messiah Strong's Definitions κύριος kýrios, koo'-ree-os; from κῦρος kŷros (supremacy); supreme in authority, i.e. (as noun) controller; by implication, Master (as a respectful title):—God, Lord, master, Sir. "God" KJV Translation Count — Total: 1,343x The KJV translates Strongs G2316 in the following manner: God (1,320x), god (13x), godly (3x), God-ward (with G4214) (2x), misc (5x). Outline of Biblical Usage (see my note below) a god or goddess, a general name of deities or divinities the Godhead, trinity [*]spoken of the only and true God refers to the things of God his counsels, interests, things due to him [*]whatever can in any respect be likened unto God, or resemble him in any way God's representative or viceregent Strong's Definitions θεός theós, theh'-os; of uncertain affinity; a deity, especially (with G3588) the supreme Divinity; figuratively, a magistrate; by Hebraism, very:—X exceeding, God, god(-ly, -ward). The Outline of Biblical Usage / Online Bible has deliberately changed some of the definitions : "Online Bible also altered Thayer's definitions concerning the Holy Spirit and the divinity of Christ since Thayer was a Unitarian." (my emphasis) https://www.bluelett.../BLBStrongs.cfm (Source: BlueLetterBible – same info on CrossWalk) John Gill's commentary offers: That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, That is, if a man shall make a good, sincere, and hearty confession to God, before the church and people of God, and before the world, that Christ is his Lord and Saviour, whom he desires to serve, and to be saved by; and this as arising from a comfortable experience of the grace of God in his soul, and from a true faith in Christ in his heart, wherefore it follows, and shall believe in thine heart, that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved; for this article of Christ's resurrection includes the several other articles of faith: it supposes his death, and that supposes his life, and the obedience of it; and his life implies his being here on earth, and that his coming down from heaven to do the will of his Father; and this is the rather mentioned, which is here ascribed to God the Father, though not to the exclusion of the Son and Spirit, because that Christ is risen again for our justification, with which true faith is principally concerned; for such a faith is intended, not which lies in a mere assent to the truth of this, or any other article of the Christian religion; but which is concerned with Christ for righteousness, life, and glory; and with such a faith salvation is certainly and inseparably connected. (http://www.biblestud...omans-10-9.html ) Even the sometimes funky Message gives this: Say the welcoming word to God - "Jesus is my Master" - embracing, body and soul, God's work of doing in us what he did in raising Jesus from the dead. Wycliffe gives this: "That if thou acknowledge in thy mouth the Lord Jesus Christ, and believest in thine heart, that God raised him from death [that God raised him from dead], thou shalt be safe." Not one translation offers "Jesus is God" – you can view this one verse very easily in many online Bibles . (Edited to improve consistency of appearance, because copy&paste gives too many peculiar styles) of magistrates and judges God the Father, the first person in the trinity Christ, the second person of the trinity Holy Spirit, the third person in the trinity

Wow, never heard that one before. I'm stuffed then.

What if you never had the perspective of what genuinely helps people? Then you never had "the truth" to start with! What if you had that perspective, but allowed it to slip away? What is "genuine help!" If what you "help" people with helps them into despair, poverty, sexual abuse; breaks up marriages instead of strengthening them; beats children instead of looking after them tenderly, as a nursing mother; destroys family relationships of all kinds (not allowed to family weddings - though allowed to funerals), can't spend time alone with your own family (have to be two by two); causes people to commit suicide and engage in risky behavior with inadequate supports? And so on. What if the help erodes moral and mental boundaries, causes the standards that are generally accepted by the population to be attacked at their root? Like respect for other people's family lives, property, and personal privacy? For sure - help people to overcome obstacles in their lives, deal with inappropriate behavior etc. For sure, teach them that God wants them free and living in the abundance of his love -but don't then ensure that their only freedom is to parrot Bible verses without understanding the very context of those verses. Don't help people to become abusers, rapists and bullies. Don't help them to become incompetent morons who have lost the ability to think for themselves. Don't help them into such low self-esteem. Woe to those that call bondage "freedom" and captivity "abundance." Is "help" one of those Way-words that has acquired a meaning completely opposite to what the normal populace understands?

Yeah, I hear ya, Oakspear. I thought it was creepy too. Especially since he was DEAD by the time I'd got involved. I also thought his self-appointed title The Teacher was creepy if not to say megalo. But I rationalised that to think that he meant a research or communications dept. I wonder if anybody actually did "write The Teacher..." and got any sensible sort of answer? I know a good many respectable clergymen nowadays and they are ALL referred to by their first names. Occasionally the might be referred to as (say) Bishop Peter, because Peter as a name is not uncommon and to add his designation of bishop simply clarifies who's meant. And other than in highly ritualistic situations, none of the church higher-ups expects anything other than the hospitality that would naturally be extended to a visitor or guest.

On another site, someone posted about attending a Geerite fellowship in Tennessee. So it seems as though Geer and his henchmen and his perverted teachings haven't yet sunk into oblivion. Anyway, Raf, this thread needs moving from The Way in Europe, since it's a very long time since Europe has been (dis)graced by his presence.

Lots of the things that were said weren't unique to Weirwille or anyone associated with TWI. They're what some might call "horse sense" (I think that's what VPW called it) - others might say, good common sense, or old wives' wisdom, or some such. Just cos VPW said something doesn't mean he "invented" the proverb. Just like the book of Proverbs is good common sense and no doubt a collection of sayings and ways of thinking that were common enough at the time - relevant then AND now.

Thank God, there are no Wayfers around here that might remind me of what anyone at that place said or did. I agree with you about it sounding a bit sinister. And juvenile, as though those saying it still haven't begun to grow up and think for themselves. But it's a common enough expression... "It's like..." So, where do you start unpicking it? You could startle people by saying, "It's like - that means it isn't..." As in: "It's like Dr W said...." " Ah, it's only like - it's not what he said/did, which was..." "It's like HA said...." " Ah, it's only like - but this is the real deal." Or, "It's not like anything he did, but it is like what my Mom/my teacher/the preacher at church did..." Or, "It's like Dr W did." "Oh, you mean, lied, stole, deceived, coveted money, attacked women, died..." (choose your event) Or simply, "So what?" - or "So what? even HA said sensible things once in a while. Even a stopped clock tells the right time twice a day; you just don't know when."

I am not reading that, you meanie, Raf.

Yeah, Raf, I know someone will try (WW probably). If anyone does, please preface with a warning. Better yet, link to some page elsewhere so that those who don't want to be reminded don't have to look.

That is a good point, TLC. Especially when we were discouraged from reading the gospels (being as they weren't written to us) except for the select bits in PFAL.

Spec - if you want to know a bit more about grace, try a read of Yancey's "What's So Amazing About Grace?" or Swindoll's "The Grace Awakening." Both are a jolly sight more "accessible" than PFAL.

I think WW is right, one of the supposed benefits was "rest to the soul." Isn't is also supposed to build you up in the inner man? And several other supposed benefits? Haven't thought of these in years and please, nobody remind me by posting here!!! :evilshades:/>