Mr. Pipes

Highway, thanks for the heart. I've not been attacked nor hurt here. I'm out here for my wife, whom I cherish. I'm not going to add any more drama. Middle school was a LONG time ago and I don't have the energy nor interest for drama. There are GOOD folks who post frequently here. There are some of the other variety here, too. Dooj, you know how highly I think of you.

Tom, You are one of the members I ENJOY reading immensely. This is in About the Way beause it's where it started. :)

Highway, You make a point. However, I've stressed to my wife that standing in GreaseSpot is meaningless. There are some wondeful folks who make good points on this site. Also, there are wackos that post here. There is more middle school drama at this site than most middle schools could muster. I don't have any friends at this site, but do consider some members to be very logical and wise. Regardless, I don't need the approval of any or all members here. Apparently now, neither does my wife. For those of you living true, God bless you. For those of you playing games and living half-truths to outright lies, you are not fooling anyone that matters - just yourself and the cyber world.

T&O, first I appreciate the insight you've provided here. Your knowledge of the recent interworkings of TWI is revealing. You contribute infinitely more value here than me. I'm not defending every church, ministry or group who has a book, class, etc to sell. I am defending an organization's right to charge a realistic fee (or donation) to cover the cost of their books, tapes, etc. The TWI class format is absolutely wrong. I beleive the CFF format is quite reasonable, buy a class, do with it what you want because you own all the materials, not just granted access to them in a limited manner. No need to involve another soul if you don't want to or else involve all you want. I think they will even allow you to make copies of thes syllabus, no need for each person to purchase their own. The groups who give away their materials do so because they have the financial means to do so; i.e., a generous group of followers or "earned income" from other sources. I respect those groups for giving their materials away. But back to part of my post you omitted, there is no such thing as a free lunch (modified this time by "unless God provides it"). Books, tapes, programs aren't without cost. How are they to be paid for? Or do we not need books, tapes, etc.? (I know Blarney's and some others answer). This is interesting stuff. Maybe I'll agree wholeheartedly with y'all before it's over.

Guys and gals, It's true the love of money is the root of all evil. It cuts both ways, taking or charging when it's not necessary and WITHHOLDING it from whom its due. I forget the scripture, you can look it up, our Saviour was financially supported by some of the women who followed him. (YOu'll find a reference in the gospels). TWI should not charge for it's classes. They have (or had in October 2005) over $20 million in liquid investments. Organizations that are just starting out need $. None of us work for free. If an organization doesn't have the funds, it gotta get 'em to survive. (Example, the author of "The Dreamweaver", tried to operate a ministry gratis. It went under, not because he didn't pray, work hard, etc. But because they had no source of income). Americans are generous to a one-time cause. They're stingy in continual financial support to non-profit groups, whtether religious or service oriented. I speak first hand, when CFF charges for it's classes; then sends a syllabus and CDs for the class. The syllabus is practically a transcript and the class is yours to keep or give away. So the purchaser of the class could give it away (I suppose) to another person/family. That would let the "giver" literally give the class/Word away. Last I checked, ALL businesses charge for paper, CDs, shipping, etc. There is no such thing as a free lunch. When Jesus was ministering here, other humans financially supported him. Are you supporting anyone (not limited to TWI and its offshoots) who teaches the Word? If not, why the he!l are you complaining?

The Heels have had another memorable season. Roy Williams is a wonderful successor to Dean Smith. What a pis*ser for the season to end this way.... Wait 'till next year ;).....

Hey Blarney, I spoke harshly as an emotional response. (I have much good to say about CFF - but that's not a group I'm pushing on anyone). My apology for being hard on you. Hoping for peace here. My bad for not being more considerate of my words. Hope your day/life is grand.

Blarney, read the effin thread! Bagpipes provided the story (she was the friend Oneophile mentioned) and explanation. Looks like you're much quicker to judge without having the whole story than the person you accused (if she ever did so). Rev. Shroyer didn't label and did offer a solution. Whatcha got to say for that? My wife (Bagpipes) has dealt with more physical and mental health problems than 98% of the population. She was not labeled by Tonia or anyone else with CFF when she was ministered to and healed on a couple of occassions by CFF ministers. Get the facts before jumping to a TWI conclusion!

ILB and I have been married 22 years (9/15/84). We've experienced the highs and lows all couples do in their relationships. We met in TWI. We are VERY happily married since leaving TWI (she in 10/05 and me in 03/06). For the previous three to four years we stayed together because of our children and $ (or the lack thereof a divorce would have caused). No doubt had I not left TWI after she did (or had we stayed in), we would be separated if not offically divorced tdoay (through a psychologist we learned kids and $ adjust after a divorce). The organization puts itself ahead of marriage, children, other family, and any other person or thing in the guise of "doing the Word". I'm thankful for quite a few things I learned in TWI and I would never have met my wife without it. However, the organization (I'm not referring to the many good hearted followers who haven't seen the light yet) has been a blight on Christianity the last 10-15 years. (Some of you would say since its inception, that's a different thread). From my point of view, marriages that stay together in TWI are because of (1) genuine love and commitment between the spouses or (2) the kids, money, and such issues, or (3) to look good in the eyes of the followers and leaders of the group. I respect folks in the first group, understand the motivation of the second group, and pity or loathe the folks in the third group. Hats off to all you long term couples. Sympathy to you who are no longer married and are heart-broken. Cheers to the rest of you.

Pink Lady, You need to go where you are comfortable. Here are the positives on CFF, IMO: 1. They do not ask for your allegience. They encourage people to either find a church or home fellowship they are comfortable in and FUNCTION. They send their weekly teaching tapes/CDs for free. Most of the teachings are quite positive and motivating. You don't have to attend one of their fellowships to be on their mailing list. 2. When you buy one of their classes you get the CD and syllabus for the class. The syllabus is almost a transcript of the class. You listen, read if and when you want in YOUR home, car, etc. Use it as you want or give it away when you're done. You're not recruiting people to take a class. 3. They do not ask you for $. 4. I've seen healings first hand and been the beneficiary of a couple as a result of CFF teachings on beleiving, miracles, and gifts of healing. My beloved wife had an instanteous healing on more than one occassion when ministered to by a CFF clergy (even over the phone). Now, any church or home fellowship can have a wonderful or average or poor leader. If you're not comfortable with the folks in the CFF fellowship (church in the home), go to the church where you're happy or keep looking. Maybe you want to listen to some of their teachings on your own. Maybe you don't. Don't be afraid of CFF. Do be aware of ANY organization you commit your heart to, the Girl Scouts and PTA can be every bit as demanding or demeaning as a bad home fellowship. Bad vibes and experiences are a warning. Abusive leaders or lazy parents (in light of Girl Scouts and PTA) can be anywhere. Walk boldly. Trust God. Go where you want to go and believe He will put who and what you need in front of you. Good success in going where you want without FEAR.

My wife and I have had great help from CFF the past year. Tender treatment, good teaching, gifts of healing, etc. My belief in God's goodness and ever ready supply was re-established. I was never taught by CFF to go to "the household" to get my need met or take a class or any other TWI equivalent work to get deliverance. No allegience was requested. At their Family reunion in August, people were exhorted to find a LOCAL fellowship or CHURCH in which to function. No long distance "membership" program. In this Monday's newletter folks were encouraged to participate a local fellowship or church where they were blessed or to start their own fellowship/church if their current group or leaders was not satisfactory to them. :) So in my context, maybe the "spies" were sent, maybe someone just took it upon themselves to spy in the name of CFF, maybe the "spies" were invited. Maybe it never happened. If it did happen a logical point my wife raised was when someone represents a business or church as an affiliate, the "name" group wants to know if their affiliate is representing them as they want to be represented. That said, going into a meeting with the motive of "being a spy" for someone else is wrong. My and our experiences with CFF are recent and VERY helpful. No group is perfect nor does one have the whole truth, but some are much closer to the truth than others. I think CFF falls into that category. And FYI our local fellowship is not affiliated with CFF, but several people listen to their tapes, classes, etc. We do not solicit money for CFF. I/we are not recruiting for CFF, but I am standing up to say any comparsion between them and TWI is like comparing citizenship in the US to Russia or China

Hey Eagle, You'd be one of the supporters ("heppers" as the true southerners often say) I mentioned. Thanks for "heppin' out". Heard you'd recently moved into the state - welcome to it. The Mrs. is equally as happy to have met you. "Take care now, ya hear". (Gotta git ya properly indoctrinated to the dialect)

Tom, I think in about 1983, right after becoming Prez, LCM had consecutive articles; "The Tithe Doth Still Provide" and "The Spiritual Abundance of Abundant Sharing" that set up 10% or nothing as the standard. Of course the second article pushed the above 10% agenda. Those two articles are appendinces to the latest foundational class. There's no true bbiblical research in the articles, just LCM's private interpretation. BTW, if I remember correctly, Dr. W taught tithing was based on pre-tax income - some time in the mid 90's LCM changed the standard to after tax income. When our then 16 year old daughter applied for the Advanced Class in 2004, the application asked the question about tithing to TWI. I don't know if the answer to that question is ever verified by fellowship coordinators or HQ staff. I do remember a long ago burning doctrinal question was whether class fees were to be included as part of one's tithing/abundant sharing or if the fees were in addition to the tithe/ABS. Seems as if the answer locally was thithe and God will provide the funds for the class fee. History as I remeber it, Tom. Good question.

My beloved Bagpipes grieves for both of us. I had no WC experience - just coordinated fellowships, classes, and showed up to help out at many a meeting and class.. I've regained our marriage, a lot of time and money, and lost the sense of embarassment of being part of TWI. I have also lost a good bit of stress. A very good ex-TWI minister who has helped Bagpipes and me make the transition told us repeatedly, "The later rain will be greater than the former rain". That is coming true. :) Thanks to all of you who have supported us. Life is immensely better outside the confines of TWI. We have made HUGE gains in our lives the last three months. Obviously the WC experience takes a real hold on one's emotions. Must be quite the program. :unsure: Thanks again for the insight and support to my beloved and me.

Groucho, I'd like to mix your alternatives: Misguided biblical research, teaching, and fellowship ministry formed as a BG Leonard offshoot resulting in a dysfunctional denomination of chair stringers. I supported TWI for over 20 years with time and cash. I did receive some worthwhile teaching. I also wasted much effort that properly belonged primarily to my wife and then our children. Any group that inserts its teachings as THE WAY to God instead of Jesus Christ is practicing idolatry. Hence maybe rather than being involved in a cult, I got tricked into idolatry. Substituting chair stringing and class promoting in place of real worship. Replacing wide lens truth with tunnel vision that could only see narrowly. Seeing the tree, but missing the forest. Looking for evil instead of good. Expecting God to treat me better than folks outside the TWI bucket, because of what it made me. Not accepting God loves equally - because TWI had The Answer Man who could get us more favorable treatment than a "simple" Christian due to our advanced spiritual understanding. What a misguided (and immature) man I was. Today, I readily admit to being duped. I can admit I was duped by a cult leader. I can admit being a follower of a cult leader. I'm not ready to admit I was part of a cult - pride is perhaps the greatest reason. But one day I can tell my grandchildren, "When i was a young man I was duped into joining a cult."