RumRunner

Dot/Hap I don't have the citation because I am not going to dig through my divorce papers - heck I don't even know if I could find them. However in CA a divorce requires mediation. Court mediation is a 20 minute perfunctory process. On the advice of both attorneys we opted for private mediate... provided by a licensed psychologist who specializes in divorces. Indeed I remember signing a "release" about being required by law to report if a client showed danger to themselves or others - then went on to list a few things - suicide - assault - I can't remember them all - but I do remember the release. Also in FL - where my BIL is a practicing psychiatrist - the same rules apply. In fact in FL if a person is admitted to a hospital for things like self-inflicted wounds, even a drug overdose, a psychiatric evaluation is required and the same "rules" apply. Now - given that since I did not give any citations - in all honesty it is hearsay from me.

Tall order DWBH - since I am not a medical or mental professional (I suppose some who know me would argue about the mental part) - I can only respond in part - perhaps more in contrast to your later successes and compare them to what I saw as frustrating failures. In my opinion there was a double whammy. People were being increasingly abused and the "clergy" (yes I admit it) had little, if any, real counseling skills. For brevity I will snip out your text which I am not competent to reply to and intersperse where I think I have valid comments or opinions.

Just a thought...that post ought to annoy a few...sounds like TWI to me

While I completely agree - I also would have more sympathy for (of the men) for those who had there wives abused as opposed to getting a castoff. A lot of the castoff "takers" took the women like a piece of meat off of the kings table. What about the man who wakes up to find out his wife is now doing the MOG? The abuse of both men and women (and indeed mostly women) was a wholesale slaughter of emotion and humanity...all for one more pass around of the horn of plenty - and one more ride on the "coach." The "castoff takers" were being trained to abuse women and other couples...and in some cases had no idea how or what they where being trained for.

My apologies then Linda

Linda - I submit to you that indeed Rocky can raise hell and go against the tide - however I think there is a fundamental difference between Rocky and some other folks here. Rocky and Rhino go at it weekly on pols and tacks - but there seems to be a tacit agreement to disagree. I see no difference between the two of them or any other heated political debate - we see it daily in the news. Rocky however - to my knowledge - does not use the bait and switch tactics that I have come to see all too often here. He states, Rhino states, the fight goes on - and it stays there - in fact some of us have come to affectionately call it the Rocky and Rhino show. In my mind the topic of this thread is far more serious at a personal level (not a national level); and therein I make the distinction. All of us are used to the campaigners, the media pundits, etc - but the topic of abuse... Never mind - Actually you can logically shut m argument down - I just also - on occasion have personal views about TWI vs. nat politics

Then - while Karate is Japanese and TaeKwonDo is Korean (long history there we won't delve into) - here are some traditional Korean drums to urge her on for her test. Best wishes on her pursuit.

Spot on Rascal - her last test - after the required 4 pooms (over 200 moves each), board breaking, etc, also required 100 vertical snap-kicks, followed by 100 sit-ups followed by 100 push ups - and in TKD they require the parent get down on the mat and count with their child. I'm very proud of her - thank you for your congrats and that same back at you.

Sweet Rascal! My daughter is a 3D in TaeKwonDo and is on her university TKD team. I think TKD was a really good investment for her. She has studied since she was five and is now 19 - almost 20. What you call a kata is called a pooms or "form" in TKD. Phenomenal discipline with some pooms having well over a hundred "moves." Makes the corpse look like a joke. Wanna know why I think that? (Doesn't matter since I am gonna post anyway)... TaeKwonDo RESPECTS others - even your opponents - the corpse (yes I admit to being a grad of) was about making money and recruits for an abusive cult - It really had nothing to do with self-respect and respect of others. OH BTW TaeKwonDo did not tell parents to use a wooden spoon.

This is a father and son relationship that makes TWI look sick

Yes sir - and that one line is a good summary. Rode on a colt - not a coach. Well stated...

Succinct and I concur.

Flawless and well stated. Thank you.

WD - I travel a lot internationally - It is my experience that it is worth the $50 (USD) or so for a travel agent fee. They have always been able to get better ticket prices for me than Orbitz or Travelocity etc. If you are traveling on short notice the savings tend to be even better from an agent.

Why thank you Abigail! That exactly my point. I prefer never to forget what Hitler, et. al. committed - there is a reason for history beside just spiritual worship - maybe to learn and remember

Funny how it goes to court all the time eh? Hey WD - know anything about a fellow named Adolph Hitler? He went to trial once - pre-Nazi Germany - in the somewhat famed beer hall putsch trials. He was convicted and found guilty - barely. He indeed was never tried post WWII because he was dead - suicide. Since he was dead there was no way to convict - sounds just like your illogic - do you deny that Hitler was a global criminal? While Wierwille was nothing on the scale of Hitler - your illogic still fails the same way. Hitler committed crimes against humanity on a global scale - Wierwille committed them on a corn-field scale - however the crime is the crime. OH YEAH WD - ALL THAT ARE LEFT TO "CONVICT" Hitler are EYEWITNESSES - with freaking tatoos on their arms - most of whom will be dead in a few years anyway - so WTF - I guess we can put Hitler to a polite sleep as well just like you want to put Wierwille down with no conviction. Oh MY I forgot something - Hitler didn't kill all of those people - HE JUST STARTED THE ORGANIZATION THAT LED TO IT AND PERPETUATED IT AS BEST THEY COULD. You WD should be wearing a freaking swastika and chanting Sieg Heil - and that is your composite worth - nothing but a Nazi

Interesting point WB. I've noticed that a number of posters have referred to GSC as a "public forum." It is NOT a public forum. Let us use a simple analogy. One block from me is a "public" library. It is paid for by my tax dollars - oh BTW it also still has rules of behavior and conduct. Don't be loud, returns books by X days etc etc - but it is public which means anyone - whether they pay taxes or not - can come in and get a card and get book loans. This site is run by the private funds of one or more people - most likely Paw - but if we toss in the mods and what their time is worth then it is their "personal" funding as well. A private forum has no requirement to let people post whatever they want. They have rules (hopefully), and if those rules are not adhered to, need make NO apology for busting you out the back of your net connection. IMO - If Paw wants to bust out WD, OM, Groucho, or me for that matter, he need make no explanation...it is his site. And... I (as well as WD, Groucho or OM) am/are free to find some other site. WD posts the way it does because IT can and is graciously tolerated. It is not a right however; not a freedom; nothing guaranteed. It's abuse is beyond measure to me - WD is no different than someone who would walk into my children's HS and slew racial/ethnic slurs around - which in CA means immediate suspension from school. HEY! A PUBLIC school - and you get suspended for using the kind of slurs he routinely uses ( yeah yeah not racial but you and all intelligent posters will get the point). He (dunno is WD a she?) will just somehow fabricate that since he/she/it made no mention of race with regard to VPW's crimes of rape and incest my point is invalid. The point on public behavior still stands and the points on administration of private forums still stand. I kinda tried to take a middle road with this whole WD sexually harassing rape victims - but I am done with that now - I think Paw should bust some of their logins and be done with it. A) It ain't public B) Follow the rules and C)???? well never mind

It's OK Krys - sake is over-rated and horrible. Ya need a couple of shots of Korean Soju - much better...oh yeah - HEY GEORGE - HAPPY B'DAY

Sorry Abigail - I used the phrase "dirty Jew" semi-randomly - since I was called that as a child in a very Catholic - very small town. I in no way meant that directed at you for whatever your ethnic heritage is. I will agree with your mixed opinions to some degree - yes we have to learn to deal with "real" life - and that is for OUR children. That in NO WAY lets the child off the hook who calls them Mayonnaise, etc (hell in CA you got hundreds of ethnic slurs to choose from). I will also be called on the carpet for suggesting that they be banned - in CA they get suspended. I guess my point is that words can be as harmful as any material weapon. Not the same way...maybe more painfully and slowly - when the person who gets named called enough goes home and commits suicide? Rare? True! But happens? Yes! Shalom

I concur to some degree Lifted. I go through that training every year since I am a DoD contractor. One does not indicate to a fellow employee that the dress looks nice by bending down and staring at her crotch (ludicrous example but used by the fed training very well). On the other hand is it sexual harassment to tell a fellow employee who is involved in a rape case to prove it to you? I would say - by fed rules - the answer is yes. That is not for you as a fellow employee to decide unless you are on the jury - and any court would dismiss you from jury duty simply because you ARE a fellow employee. You might be subpoenaed to testify but would not be allowed on a jury No there will likely be no U.S. court date for wierwille and others who committed similar acts - and hence many allegations will never be provable. But when provided with overwhelming testimony that these things happened - there will always be people who are (in some cases appropriately) angered.

I guess Abigail my thinking on banning is like this (going back to the school behavior post I sent above) - If a student walks into a HS with a .357 pistol - then yeah - banning is in order. I don't want them around my kids. Now we can extrapolate this to no end - and someone will attack me for this extrapolation. One could easily say that a gun could cause immediate physical harm whereas a web forum post does not. On that I would disagree. There are reasons that students are not allowed to use ethnic slurs - and indeed if anyone called you a 'dirty Jew" as a child - you would feel the immediate (though probably not life threatening) harm. I don't want those people in my childrens' schools either.

Yeah - seems I missed her point - read further interactions between Abigail and me as above. Please also note that the interactions between us were - hmmm - polite?!?! It took only four or so posts to come to a consensus. How weird is that?

My apologies then Abigail - seems I missed your point. I read it with the flavor (which I tried to explain) seemed to me as if you were suggesting there were not alternatives. Or perhaps we both missed each others points. My main point was not so much about alternatives as it was about behavior. My teenagers are expected to act with better behavior than I have seen exhibited on GSC. I am not picking on "the usual" names, the Wierwille apologists, etc. I've seen it all over these boards BTW - if you go in "the way back machine" (an early 60's cartoon) - you will see the same thing happened on even early 70's social boards - no GUI's - no way to post youtube (didn't exist) - but the social behaviors where not that different. Just for fun look up MUSH, MUD, Mu. Same story - not religious cult background - just that when you get a couple of hundred (thousand?) people in the same room these behaviors will, pretty much, always crop up. I ran a MUSH for many years - longer than GSC has been around - it's all a "re-run" if you will let me use that figure. This re-run is generally centered around TWI - with notable exceptions in Politics and Tacks - but the posting is all of the same flavor I watched over 20 years ago. Humans eh? - I would post a smiley for you here but I hate the damned things. yeah edited for grammar - I wish I could type....