sprawled out

not to get all doctrinally nitpicky with you, groucho, but don't you mean Robert Hunter? :P (great quote, though! perfect, in fact.)

seems to me there are very few 11's around here. a handful, maybe. too bad. it was a good bunch!

looking for any acknowledgement of STFI's dilemma on their websites, i noticed the centerpiece of their "truth or tradition?" homepage is a link to an article titled "Is Prophesy Biblical?" no references to the current situation, just a nice thick coat of doctrinal whitewash. there now, that oughta handle it!

"official feminist policy?" and what would that be? (i'd like to read it before i start disagreeing with you!)

i guess i don't get out enough. in the 20 years since i left twi, i have NEVER bumped into a current innie, or anyone in a splinter group. where are you hanging out that you meet these people? are they lurking at churches?

maybe you'll get your chance, t-bone! (i'm sure it'll be a welcome break for them, after hearing "Why is there evil in the world?" like 50 gazillion times.)

chas--thanks for the info. it really is a sweet-looking guitar. i have a mid-60s 335 that i almost never play because i'm addicted to my tele's maple neck--that's what really caught my attention when i saw that vh1 clip. too bad it's so far out of my price range. funny that you mentioned "some cheap Squier-strat thing." i just got a Squier '51. it caught my eye somewhere and i started reading all the enthusiastic reviews online. so i dug down deep for the 99 bucks it cost--and i love it! the fret ends need a little work, but it plays and sounds great. like the starcaster, it has a unusual hybrid look. plus it's light as a feather, which is important in my old age. thanks for the pic of your ibanez. it's purty.

i saw them in the 70's, the "Welcome to the Dance" version of the band--a couple of times in NY and once in CA. it was such a loose scene that i just walked backstage after the show. had a great conversation with haggerty where he told me about being backstage with george benson the night before. he was all excited, and said, "do you know what it's like, hanging out with your favorite guitarist?" i just grinned at him until he got it. i also saw them recently in LA, kickin' a$$ in a nearly empty club. :( fyi--if you like the original lineup, you can get their first (unreleased) album, Fat City. at amazon. it's just them being an R&B band, with some 60s sanfran-pop thrown in. but i like it. his L-5 sound was my favorite, too. i've got an mp3 of that gold mine cut, if you want it. no charge!

wouldn't it really be the other way around?? isn't "wanting our own way" (i'm eating that fruit, no matter what god says) what caused the fall?

socks-- ha! i was reading through this thread from the beginning, trying to find chasufarley's post about the Starcaster (all while i'm supposed to be working), and ran across a link to some of your music. listening, i thought, "i gotta tell this guy about the Sons." they are one of my all-time favorite bands, top three, at least, so i got a kick out of seeing this post from you. they are still the sh!t. though i must admit i really miss haggerty. you're ok, socksie. no matter what they say.

thanks, chas--i forgot about my question in the holiday rush, and suddenly remembered it today! it's an odd-looking platypus of a guitar, which is what caught my attention. i'll check out your earlier post. waysider, the one i saw on vh1 looked just like the pic on wikipedia. thanks, all!

i'm sure people find those books, and others like them, helpful. but i would suggest to elizabeth and whoever else that this might be a good time to steer clear of others' remedies. and do the thing that "believers" of all stripes seem so loathe to do--look within YOURSELF for the strength, the validation, you need. looking elsewhere is what got you in this mess to begin with. i know this is the opposite of what twi, ces and others insist is true ("you need a standard of truth outside of yourself..."). but my experience (oh, no! not the dreaded "experience!") is, if it doesn't come from inside YOU, it can easily be taken away again, by the next seemingly well-intentioned group with "answers." but if you find what you need within yourself, building your own reasoned stronghold, NO ONE can take it from you. if this seems to fly in the face of "casting down imaginations" and all that, i'm not saying you should fortify yourself against the knowledge of God--just against those who claim they have access to that knowledge that you do not.

i asked a similar question a few months back, and the discussion was lively for a bit: If God is love, who needs Jesus? not that anyone convinced anyone of anything. just fyi.

go for it, paw!

the platypus is all the proof you need

wherever? why, tom, elvis is EVERYWHERE.

this is the crux of it, to me. but i don't know how many would agree with me as to the nature of "the lie." for me, it's all about turning over your freedom of thought. IF you decide to believe the bible (or any other fixed set of rules, standards, etc. that aren't to be questioned), you have relinquished ultimate control of your life. if you do that within the context of an organization, there's bound to be a person or persons happy to take the reins for you. for me, that's the first step down, and it's two-pronged. first, you're admitting you aren't able to be in charge of your own life. and second, you're at least allowing the possibility that maybe someone else should be. (god, via a representative.) from there, it's not a long way to where JAL has obviously ended up. is the bible true? yes. were there prophets in bible times? yes. has god changed? no. so what if the things a modern-day prophet (or prophetess) says are wacky—aren't there plenty of wacky visions and revelations right there in the bible? from where i stand, it's just a matter of where you draw the line. some of us here have decided we're not playing at all anymore. some still believe, but with reservations. others believe wholeheartedly, but refuse to give anyone else any control. those who slid from twi straight into a splinter seem to be more likely to swallow ever-bigger whoppers. but why not? they've been suppressing their gag reflex for a long, long time.

hey, biblebrain, you sure jumped in with both feet! i guess i don't see the "bitterness" you speak of. but am i complaining and judging? you bet! i'm complaining because i think there's plenty to complain about in this STF business--many of the same complaints i had about twi, and anyone else who espouses what i JUDGE (there i go, judging) to be nonsense. when i left twi, i told myself my new philosophy was "if what you believe makes you happy, it's cool with me." twenty years later, it's really not my philosophy any more. not when it's so obvious to me that so much of what people believe, especially in this category, damages other people. as for your perception of "most people" on this site, isn't that judging? (and snap judging, to boot) or do you hold yourself to some other standard? can you say hypocrite?

good point, dot.

i agree, wholeheartedly. but you and i both know it ain't gonna happen. and again, i agree. but i also understand that it HAS to be, for him. not that i agree with it in any way, but i see it as just the nature of the beast. if you thought your "package" was so R-I-G-H-T that you'd devote your whole life to it, every fiber of your being, then the flip side must be that you think everyone else has to be wrong. so your whole life is a "we/they" thing. no matter what "willing to dialogue" rap you give lip service to. to be fair, there's nothing i see in the bible that would refute that position. moses, jesus, paul...there was a whole lot of "we/they" in them, too.

i have to agree with oldies here. (hence the saying, "there's a first time for everything!") i have NO stake in CES/STFI/whatever they're calling it today. and i put NO stock in ANY of the ex-twi folks running ANY of these splinter groups. (i've said for years that i think every last one of 'em ought to pack it in and live in the real world for a while. like forever.) and i have no problem whatsoever with sticking it to anyone who thinks they have the best "package." but i'm taken aback by how nasty people have been about this. skyrider, i understand what your friend might've experienced. but to be fair, i had the opposite experience. john told me about how great momentus was. i asked what it was about. he told me i'd have to take the class to find out. i told him i fell for that bs once with pfal and wasn't about to do it again. AND HE NEVER BROUGHT IT UP AGAIN. (this was a number of years ago, when he and i would meet for lunch once a year when he was in town.) in fact, i'd made it very clear to him that not only wasn't i interested in momentus, i wasn't interested in CES, or in christianity of any flavor. and he still called me every year, to have lunch and chat like humans about our families, mutual friends, etc. he is a thickheaded, one-track-minded guy, absolutely. and he thinks what he's doing is right, and has no qualms about telling you so. but he's not the guy you're making him out to be.

i can't make the "distinction" you're able to, oldies. to me, if God led people to twi, he put them in harm's way. period. EVERYBODY'S "sinned." but not everybody did the things vpw did. there's a huge difference, to me, between a flawed human being and a predator. i don't know why THAT seems so difficult for some to accept!

ah, i see. so let me tell you about this bridge. it's in Brooklyn. not even 125 years old. and i can let you have it, for the rock-bottom price... i'm sorry, but it's out-and-out ridiculous to me. how can you have the benefit of all this hindsight and still insist on believing that God would intentionally put you in harm's way--at the mercy of a lying, stealing, cheating lunatic--KNOWING that you were too ignorant and inexperienced to separate wheat from chaff, AND that you'd waste precious years of your life there, thinking it was "HIS" ministry? that's love? that's NUTS.

this could get us way off topic (30+ pages later), but it's also very topical, because it ties into the whole personal prophecy thing ("the lord told me..."). you were hungering and thirsting, and God led you to a stolen class taught by a lying plagiarist? because as long as you get "the word" it doesn't matter where it came from? because he had no better option? because he was unaware of where the outfit was heading? i'm sorry, therebut, but i think that's a deeply flawed position. especially if you think the lord showed it to you. yes, it's only my opinion. but you might think about it.