sprawled out

maybe he's making a joke? :huh:

mstar--you're one of the olsen twins??!! (does the "m" stand for mary kate?)

i haven't thought of that in YEARS! i remember sitting in the back of classes, trying to stifle my laughter when that came up, wondering if any of the new students heard it! thanks, rhino! :D

all i meant was it would be a very way-like thing to do, which it is. twi always bent the truth like that, so it seemed quite likely that a former corps coordinator would. or could.

a simple heads-up is all i ask. it could've made all the difference for a lot of us:

thanks ex--that's kinda what i was getting at.

just a note--this publisher has a self-publishing division (like a vanity press). i can't tell whether this book was self-published or not, but it's just the kind of thing a wayfer would do. and tell everyone they got a book published. sorry to be so cynical. NOT.

kind of interesting to me that steve h**fner uses the word "kittywampus." there's only one place i ever heard that term! (i suppose it's commonly used in some places, but it's not a NY expression!)

thanks for all your insights. amazingly, i agree with most, if not all, of what's been said here--especially what belle said about religion being set up to control people. (I just finished reading Guns, Germs and Steel, and the author talked briefly about exactly that--how religion evolved as a method of keeping large populations under control.) but i keep coming back to "what's at the root of it?" i can only speak with any experiential authority about CES, so i'll just talk about that. i know those guys started with the best of intentions. they knew the pitfalls. they knew what they were trying not to be. and yet it seems they became it, anyway. i think it may be just the nature of organized religion. of course, it doesn't help when you start off with people that are creeps to begin with. (i'm not naming any names here!) but even if you don't, once it becomes a going concern, the powers that be are going to want to consolidate their position. and then you're screwed. that's why, to quote the original Groucho Marx, "Whatever it is, I'm against it!" :P

the discussion about CFF in the Open forum got me thinking: what is it about the splinters that causes them to get legalistic and inflexible? i don't have much firsthand knowledge, i'll admit, but there seems to be a pattern. CES started out pretty loosey-goosey, and i understand they became much less willing to listen to other points of view. (to put it nicely.) vince f's thing is legalistic, i'm told. and g**r's thing is, well, g**r's thing. now we hear that CFF is clamping down. is there a fundamental point of doctrine, something seemingly innocuous, grandfathered in from twi, that funnels ex-twi outfits down the path of self-righteous, "our way or the highway" calcification? is it the idea that there's only one way to rightly divide the word? it just seems to me that maybe there's a "trojan horse" of twi dogma that insidiously undermines the splinters. or is it just the nature of the beast, a la galatians? is it ego on the part of the bossmen? mog mentality? what do you think?

thanks for your thoughtful response, t-bone. i do appreciate your taking the time. but as much as i used to get off on that 20/20 biblical hindsight stuff ("the new testament is the old testament revealed"), it just annoys me now. i think someone could probably put together a story to support almost anything by plucking the right pieces out of the OT. i'd just prefer it said what it wanted to say outright. as it is, it so readily lends itself to all that "secret knowledge for the initiated" crap, the same old elitism that religion seems to thrive on. i know, i'm not god, and god can do it any way he wants. my problem is i can't ignore my brain's rational objections anymore. well, i could, but i won't. (so i didn't think you were being contrary at all, sushi. just logical.) dancing--i'll check out that whitehead guy. thx.

when i see that letter from HA to Bo, i wonder who wrote it for him. complete, gramatically correct sentences--he certainly couldn't have done it himself!

the word translated "imaginations" in 2 cor 10:5 doesn't mean "imagination" as we define it. it's the greek word logismos, which means "reasoning, speculation, thought."

i'm bringing this up to the top to reiterate my question. i've asked this here before and gotten nowhere. but i think it's a valid question. hey, wordwolf, it's not like you to shy away from an opportunity to explain things. how about explaining this? thanks.

do your thing, then, johniam. it's a puzzle to me. all i know is, i had honest questions. wrote him thoughtful letters. and he refused to answer my questions, twisted my words to make accusations that were completely unfounded, and wrote me off. as far as i'm concerned, i know who and what he is.

so much of this geer discussion really boils down to what his motivation is. could he be running a business and still be pure of heart? sure--businesses aren't inherently evil. the problem is really with G**r himself. his character, or lack thereof, has been attested to over and over in this thread and others. i haven't done an exhaustive count, but it certainly seems that the overwhelming majority of people who have had PERSONAL dealings with G**r have come away with a negative impression, myself included. so it's really not a matter of whether it's a business or a ministry, whether he should be profiting from the sale of the "Word of God," or any of that. ultimately, it's all about the fact that, according to people with first-hand knowledge, he's not to be trusted. do you really want to be involved with, learn from, give money to or in any way support someone who's proven himself to be so thoroughly despicable?

what i have never understood about the whole devil story is why it's scattered all over the old testament. the old testament is full of stories with beginnings, middles and ends--why is what is theoretically one of the most crucial stories veiled in metaphor and spread hither and yon? (please don't tell me it's because it's too important for "just anyone" to know.) and how can i trust anyone's attempts to put the pieces together when they seem perfectly willing to make statements which are so blatantly untrue, like this (sorry, wordwolf, you just happened to give me the best example): "He's referred to as a star...In fact, this is rendered nearly the same, or EXACTLY the same, as the title Jesus has at the end of Revelation." how is "star of the morning" EXACTLY the same as "bright morning star?" not in english. what about in the original languages? well, "star of the morning" is one word in the hebrew, heylel. (in the kjv, that one word is translated "lucifer, son of the morning.") what does it mean? no one seems to agree EXACTLY. various "experts" say "lightbearer" or "shining one" or "daystar" or "morning star" or something along those lines. but "bright morning star" is THREE words in the greek, aster, lampros and proinos, meaning something like "shining (or resplendent) morning star." my point is simply that THEY'RE NOT THE SAME. but they get put together by bible put-togetherers, just like all that other supposedly-about-lucifer stuff gets put together. and it just doesn't work for me. maybe i'm silly, but i think GOD, THE CREATOR OF THE HEAVENS AND EARTH, should be able to do better than that.

didn't (doesn't?) old hayseed howard look kinda like the joker? or snidely whiplash?

hehe--you said "dick!" :lol: seriously, johniam, is the "veil" down in cg fellowships? do they/you talk about the transgressions? are they/you VP worshippers? why do you suppose so many people here have had negative experiences with people involved with a cg fellowship? i'd really like to hear from you on this. my only experience was with cg himself via the mail in 1987, and it wasn't positive. so i'd like to hear about your experience with a cg group.

the vesper chimes hour or the chimes hour youth caravan or the dodge caravan youth hour starring tammy grimes. one of those.

"alarmists?" did you read the article on that site i referenced? i think it would give you pause. unless, of course, you're already buying into their party li(n)e. and honestly, don't you think it's a bit screwed up to ask for information and then put down the people who cared enough and took the time to look around for info and respond?

i get it, jonny. but too bad.... :(

looks like it's a suburb of tacoma. (towards the coast)

man, i haven't seen those in a billion years. yikes.

mmmmmmmMMMM!