Suda

Started as a sluggish snail, and ended as a bobbing bobcat. Fun!

Made it to 18.697 today.

When LCM tried to usurp the throne from God, he fell flat on his a**, and took twi with him, leaving the whole place in shambles, without God and without hope.

Got to 11.997 seconds today. Close, but still no cigar.

Belated Happy Birthday. Enjoy the last year of your 40's, and look forward to turning 50. Like the old saying goes, "Life begins at 50." I've loved my 50's, they have been the best!

Happy, Happy, Birthday From all of us to you. Happy, Happy, Birthday May all your dreams come true. May you have happy birthdays All your whole life through. Happy, Happy, Birthday It's God in Christ in You! Enjoy reading your posts. Have a wonderful day! Suda

Agree, it will drive you crazy. Made it to 8.783 seconds. Guess it's proof I should stay in coach rather than the pilot's seat. New high score, 9.123. Half way to the 18 second mark!

She is married and living in Memphis, TN. Doing great! Helping with the spanish speaking children in Memphis City Schools.

Is this the Esther that married Rick Roy? If so, she is doing well and in the Virginia Beach area.

ex10, I think the differentiation between the general and the specific is made clear to us when God tells us something specific and personal. It can be related to a general promise. For example, we know that God wants us to enjoy good health. But we can receive specific revelation concerning our own health. I remember vividly being awaken one night by God, and Him telling me to go get my heart checked. I was asymptomatic, and it surprised me. In the next day or so I had some slight discomfort in my upper back, and a bit of tingling in my arm. But I obeyed, and went to the ER to have it checked out. They admitted me and did tests for two days and found nothing, told me it was in my head, and discharged me. I had my results sent to another cardiologist to compare to a baseline from about 7 years previous. He said there may be an area of concern and scheduled me for a heart cath. The next morning at 6 a.m. I had double by-pass surgery. I had a congenital defect, some kind of bulbous growth, and 60% blockage. I knew my blood pressure had been up since February, and this was September. But if God had not told me, I would have never suspected anything was seriously wrong, nor would I have pushed the situation. But knowing God had told me, I kept pushing until it was checked out completely. Glad I did as my mother and uncle both dropped dead of sudden heart attacks. As we did not do autopsy's don't know if they had the same defect or not, but think it's quite possible. This may not be what you were asking at all. But it seemed like it fit.

I always laugh when I think about what ex10's mother once said about believing. Why is it that every time one of my corps children believes God, it costs me money?

Richard, I spent a lot of time with John and Mary Ann during the 2 years were we all in Greenville, NC in the late 70's. Rochelle was their only child at that time. Mary Ann was a lovely person, and John was a great teacher. However, I found him to often be arrogant, callous, and chauvinistic on a personal level. He put down women a lot. Once remarked that all women were the same, so he found one that was good looking and rich to marry; he wasn't saying it as a joke, he was quite serious. His demeanour may have changed greatly once he left twi, however. I still study and appreciate the teachings of Dr. Wierwille. They hold many truths to help you learn how to study and understand the Bible, incorporate it practically into your everyday life, and build a solid foundation for an intimate relationship with God.

Ex10, Oakspear, and Little Hawk, Happy Valentine's Day to all of you. Thanks for your sweet greetings. Ex-10, glad we could be with your family at your nephew's funeral. I hated the circumstances, but it was wonderful having so many of your clan back in Memphis. I never see V & D, even though they live here, and they're such a hoot to be around. You're whole family is! Oakspear, sounds like you are more of a night owl like me, rather than a morning person like Sudo. When he realized that sudden death was imminent for disturbing my peaceful slumber in the morning, he quickly learned a valuable lesson: Sometimes he wakes up grouchy, but usually he lets her sleep. (Maybe another trick would be to get him to gargle with Littlehawk's pear mouthwash in the morning - that would be a jolt to his morning!). Suda

Happy Valentines Day, Sudo! I love you, Suda Roses are red Violets are blue Chocolate is nice And emeralds are, too!

ex10, I chose the words naive and shallow as thought they were apropos to my lack of interest at this time of digging any deeper into someone elses garbage. I thought some might feel that unless I took the time to diligently read all about it myself, I would not be armed with sufficient information to have/make an informed opinion/decision. I visited Waydale in the past, and have perused GSC over the years, and have heard accounts from various sources. At present, I have read and heard as much I care to. I am aware of the major accusations being made, and feel they are based on solid reasoning, and that's all I need to know at this point. I appreciate the graciousness welcome everyone has extended to me here at GSC. I have not felt offended in any way. Many have been thought provoking, and I appreciate that.

laleo, Sudo and Jed Clampett . . . both love overalls and have a country demeanour, but thankfully no longer share the facial hair. Sudo had the beard and moustache thing going for a while, but I couldn't stand to kiss him (too scratchy on my tender face), so he shaved it off. Sudo does loves to hamm up the Tennessee Hillbilly image - the kids just cringe (and so do I sometimes!). Don't think he can tap dance the way Jed did, either, but here he's a real hoot when it comes to hugging close to trees at the weenie roasts.

ex10, Raf, Oakspear, outin88, I can follow and appreciate your reasoning for your feelings and opinions about VPW. They are very similar to those of my husband, and we have had innumerable discussions about it. Call me naive, shallow, whatever, but at this point in my life I do not care to delve deeper into the garbage in someone elses past, as I have spent too much time shoveling the garbage out of my own life. I'm tired of garbage. I want to move on to bigger and better things while keeping the many positive things from all aspects my past. I agree all teachings from any source must be carefully considered and researched on your own, not just taken at face value. I have never been one to just accept what someone else said, nor have I ever shied away from questioning anything I had a conflict with. I do not accept all that Dr. Wierwille taught as "the God's honest truth" but he gives good backround and thought as a starting place to begin researching a topic on my own. I don't put anyone on a pedestal and deem them like a pope - one who speaks for God and everything they say is to be taken as divinely inspired. Only Jesus Christ was capable of that, and he has no close competition of which I am aware. From my earlier post, you can see examples of things I vehemently disagree with Wierwille/twi on. And there were many others. I never had any respect for people who just accepted his teachings on blind faith. Seemed they had no real interest in learning, just filling themselves up with information they could regurgitate on cue. I agree, it would be wonderful to hear Oakspear teach the Bible.

act2, Yes, the Self's are in my fellowship. A neat couple that are now grandparents to a one-year baby boy, born around Christmas time 2004 to their son and daughter-in-law in the Memphis area. Another son and wife in Baton Rouge, and the oldest and his wife out of the military and now living in Kentucky, I think in the Louisville area. Both are doing quite well. They were m&a about 2 years ago for associating with the people in our fellowship, and have been a part of our group ever since. I only met one couple and their kids in their twi fellowship, and can't remember their names, but think the wife was related to Mal and Jan George. Just met them briefly at a reception our fellowship hosted for their oldest son when he was in town visiting. Seemed like nice people to me from our brief encounter. Thanks for asking.

Ex 10, Am enjoying the menu very much. I've been away from twi for about 20 years now. Was involved for for about 10 years. When I look back over my past, the one affiliation (outside of my family, of course) that most shaped my life and helped me to grow into the person I am was twi. If I were in college again, with complete foreknowledge of my future 30 years hence, I would still choose to be involved with twi. I still have a lot of growing and changing and improving ahead of me I hope as a good life is always full learning. But despite my many imperfections, I am quite comfortable with who I am and like the person I see each morning in the mirror. The central reason why is my relationship with God, and my desire to live a life of service to Him. I had searched all over in my spiritual quest to find the information that was presented in twi. The truth truly set me free, and I will always be eternally grateful to the man I feel was most responsible for setting me on the proper course in my spiritual journey, and that was Dr. Wierwille. Since twi, Daniel and I visited many churches, and finally found one we felt comfortable joining in the early 90's. I was even invited to be a part of their "corp" program, The Training of the Twelve. It is a very large church, and only 12 people per year are asked to participate in this training program. It such a pathetic joke, and each week I ended up in heated arguments with the senior minister about how topics he presented were so opposed to the Bible. It became quite funny, because many Sunday he would teach from the pulpit about 'you won't believe what a person I counseled earlier this week told me she believed about the Bible. She said . . .", and all of the 12, and soon many members of the congregation knew exactly who he was talking about and would turn and look at me, some frowning, some giving a thumbs up. The class was about split equally on who they sided with, me or him, and 1 of the 3 ministers leading the training program came to rest of my side of the bench. I was quite involved, teaching adult as well and pre-school Sunday School, taught Children's Church for several years, vacation bible school, worked with children's choir, everything. I finally left after about 7 years when I was told I was no longer welcome. It was so dead spiritually, I was not upset about leaving. For me it had been all give, no receive, although I met a lot of wonderful people I still keep in contact with. Then the children and I continued to visit other churches with friends, or on our own, and there never was place that I could call home. So I went back to twi type fellowships in about 2002, and have loved every minute of it. I give and receive and grow. We study materials from various sources, but most are VPW's as they are the best we have found. And I see signs, miracles, a wonders constantly in my life as well as those of my fellow believers. Daniel likes the church, I like my fellowship. And unless something better is introduced to me, that's where I'll be. Give my love to your family - Just not the same without you here. I love all of you bunches.

Excathedra and Raf, I agree wholeheartedly that the sexual abuse by Dr. Wierwille and other leadership, from headquarters all the way down to the twig level, was unconsciounable and inexcusable. And it filtered it's way down to the "rank and file believers" as evidenced by the rampant sexual activity among so many members. It would not surprise me to learn that the majority of hurt inflicted by twi had it's roots in this sexual sphere. I know it certainly caused me enormous amounts of confusion, anguish, condemnation, and hurt that took me years to overcome. Twi came into it's heydey in the 60's and 70's when the young people in the society at large were in the midst of the sexual revolution, and twi jumped on the bandwagon. Instead of teaching abstinence like the Bible and churches did, they had Christian Family and Sex. While not directly encouraging pre-marital sex and adultery, it put a hefty gray wash on it, and did not discourage or prohibit it, either. Their stance seemed to be to leave it up to each individual to decide for him/herself based upon faulty teaching given in the CFS seminar. The most glaring example to me was the inaccurate handling of I Corinthians 7:1 b " . . . It is good for a man not to touch a woman." and from the context it is apparent it meant in the way he would touch his wife. Obviously if it was not good, then it was bad, and something to avoid. But instead, from my (somewhat faulty) memory, the gist of what was taught was something like 'well, it's not the best thing for you to do, but it's not the worst thing either'. I remember discussing it with the seminar leader and saying that was contrary to what verse 2 said, "Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife,and let every woman have her own husband." His response was something like it never specfically stated do not have sex outside of marriage, but he could see where I was coming from in thinking it was certainly implied. So with faulty doctrine such as that, it's no wonder that most people jumped on the "if it feels good, do it" bandwagon and freely experimented with sex with whomever they chose. But there's a huge difference between two unmarried people consenting to be sexually active, and someone being pressured into a sexual liasion. Seems to me that crap about serving a mog (in whatever leadership capacity he was in) sexually was based upon another CFS erroneous teaching about David being the king, so all the women in the kingdom belonged to him, so technically there was nothing wrong with him sleeping with Bathsheba. His error was in having Uriah killed in battle to coverup the pregnancy. Well, if it was okay for David to bed her, and it was known that sexual intercourse often resulted in pregnancy, then why would there have been a problem with her becoming pregnant? Why a need to cover it up? Coverups aren't necessary for things that are right, so David bedding her must have be wrong even if he were the king. Somehow, David's status as king and was equated to that of a mog, and a King's access to anyone in his kingdom was equated to the a mog's access to anyone in his realm of influence. As it was complete bull and, therefore, confusing, I was never able to understand it then, and have trouble restating it here. And then there was that malarkey about Paul being ministered to by the women in the areas he visited. And somehow their ministering was stretched from the customary components of hospitality in meeting his physical needs for food, drink, and shelter, all the way to meeting his sexual needs also. And all the loosey-goosey teaching then led to it being okay for brothers- and sisters-in-Christ to bless each other by taking care of each others sexual needs. I even heard junk like it being perfectly acceptable for a married, male twig coordinator to minister to the sexual needs of his single, female twigettes. Yes indeed, the whole sexual arena was out-of-control inside twi and outside during that horrid sexual revolution, the effects of which are continuing to ruin our society today. And, yes, against my better judgment, I got caught up in it also. After being raped in college (thankfully by an unknown intruder, not someone I knew and trusted) I decided if my chastity belt could be ripped off by a stranger, I might as well choose my partner(s) and enjoy the ride. Stupid decision, devoid of logic, but one I made just the same, and paid hell for it. And after CFS, I assuaged my guilt with information I knew in my heart to be untrue. (My, how far we will go to try and defend to ourselves the poor decisions we make. But our conscience is always in there fighting for us to face the truth and get back on track. The majority of my hurt stemmed from me letting myself down, from allowing myself to get involved in a relationship I knew was wrong deep down in my heart. But under the influence of youthful lust, and persuasion based upon CFS bull by a mog I trusted, I rationalized it and allowed myself to proceed. The hard part for me was for forgiving myself, not forgiving others.) Excathedra, my heart goes out to you for the abusive way he treated you. As I said earlier, it was both unconsciounable and inexcusable. I pray that God will heal your heart. In the sexual arena, I agree with you Raf that Although he never directly harassed me sexually, the CFS school of thought led to me being sexually harassed on numerous occasions by others (leadership, corp, and lay wayfer). And when I went against my better judgment, it resulted in the immense heartache I mentioned earlier in this post. I accept my responsibility for the poor decision I made and have finally been able to forgive myself. I have also been able to work through the hurt, anger and confusion towards the other party, and forgive him, also. And I pray for both healing for and forgiveness from anyone hurt by my actions as I know that poor decisions always hurt others, also. But despite all that has happened, I will still focus on the postive, and be thankful for the many benefits I received from Dr. Wierwille's right teachings and my time with twi. To me, the positives do outweigh the negatives. As for I do not see how expressing my opinion of my experience equates to me making a unilateral decision (nor declaration) representing everyone ever associated with twi. I speak for myself only, and hope that my opinions will not be misinterpreted as insults directed towards anyone. And, yes we agree that

Bowtwi, So sorry for your evil treatment in twi and the hurt and confusion it caused you. Am glad you seem to have worked through a lot of it and experienced healing in those areas. I doubt that anyone has walked away from twi, or any other organization for that matter, without hurt and confusion because of the actions and words of some leader off their rocker. I am thankful for all the healing in my life related to twi and am glad I have reached a point where the past is the past, I can leave it behind and enjoy embarking on my future. As for I appreciate the prayers for our family as I am sure they helped us through some very difficult times. It has not been easy making the transition as a couple from "like-mindedness" to "polar opposites". In fact, it has been and continues to be dam* hard work. We have to remember to respect as rascal stated. Yelling matches are minimized now, but it has been difficult for us as well as our children. Unfortunately, because their parents were at such great odds, they pretty much chose their own paths, so we are totally disjointed spiritually as a family. I go to a home fellowship which my husband refers to as "a cult, full of lies, total bullsh**"; he attends and teaches Sunday School at our former church, a Christian (Disciples of Christ) congregation, because it is what he feels is socially acceptable and expected, which I call "hypocritical"; our eldest daughter occasionally visits the First Chinese Baptist Church with her boyfriend (who is not Asian, but Caucasian, and it always tickled me when I picked them up and they were the only non-Asians there); our middle daughter joined a local Baptist Church several years ago and did not even tell us for fear of what the news might cause in our household (which really hurts my heart deeply that she does not feel comfortable discussing spiritual matters with me, but I'm thrilled she has found a place to worship that she enjoys); and our son limits his "church" attendance to weekly Chapel services at school, and has recently started reading his Bible daily, and does discuss spiritual topics with me occasionally. As a mother, I feel that my primary responsibility towards my children is to bring them up in the nurture and admonition of God, and that is a major challenge daily due to the spiritual mayhem in our household. But God continues to answer my prayers related to them, as well as to healing to marriage and relationship with my husband. The situation is not what I envisioned when we married, but I am thankful for our mutual respect for one another, our similar morals and values, and the hope that our relationship will continue to grow better and better each day. He is a good man, I love him, and we do the best we can in resolving our differences.Well, sorry to go off on that tangent. Sudo keeps warning me that GSC is addictive. We'll see if that's true for me. Sure am enjoying the posting so far. God Bless!

Thanks for all the welcomes to this thread. It's good to know we can disagree, but still share ideas and learn from each other. In reading through threads, it seems one of the major points on controversy on VPW's teaching was that he plagiarized from others and did not credit them in his teachings and/or written works. Plagiarism is unethical and if he is guilty (and seems he may be from the research many here at GSC have done) it is a flaw in his character. Call me naive or whatever, but I was always under the impression that he had learned much from the research of others and taught those portions he believed to be true. I was more interested in the content of teachings than the sources from which they were gleaned. In written works, I agree sources should have been noted. But I don't really care who the source of right doctrine is, as long as I have the opportunity to hear it and judge for myself whether to accept it or not. Maybe I was lucky, but I never felt pressured to accept or believe something just because he or any other person taught it. I always felt free to question, and felt encouraged to do so. How many times were we told not just to accept something at face value, but to research it ourselves, see if it fit with the rest of the Word, and decide for ourselves. That was the only way to "make it your own" and have it become a part of your belief system. From some of the posts I've read, it would seem that many did not feel free to question, and that is a tragedy. I am thankful they escaped such an oppressive environment. Had I ever felt that my twi experience was dominated by "If VPW/Leadership said it, that settles it" versus "God said it, that settles it" I would have left immediately. In fact, that's when I did leave when the mark and avoid teachings came out. They did not ring true to me from the beginning, and I realized that the twi I had loved and enjoyed no longer existed and I wanted no part of the shell that was left in it's place. When that weekend seminar ended, so did my affiliation with twi as an organization. I still kept it touch (and still do) with friends I made during my twi tenure, and highly treasure many of those friendships. I guess I received the mark and avoid stamp, also, as some people chose not to associate with me after that. I counted it their loss, not mine, and kept on living my life. I will always be immensely thankful for the time I spent with twi and for the foundation it laid enabling me to develop a personal, intimate relationship with God. And I credit Dr. Wierwille's teachings for the majority of this, whether it was his "original" knowledge, or that he gleaned/plagiarized from others. I will always be thankful for his life and ministry and the positive effect it had on my life and many others. Since my twi days I have continued to grow spiritually, and cannot imagine life not centered in God and His Word. My heart goes out to all of those who were hurt and threw out everything, including God and the Bible. I am thankful I was able to leave the bad behind, and take the good forward with me. It is certain that if someone chose to examine my life there would no paucity of garbage and imperfections to be found in both the trail I've left behind and my current path. Along the way I have tried to right the wrongs I made and I know that my future holds many more errors I will make. But I hope that despite the bad in my life, I will have made positive contributions that will outshine and outlive the negatives. To me, the good in Dr. Wierwille's life and ministry far outweigh the negatives. I choose to focus on the good and not the bad, and build from there. Thanks for letting me share my thoughts, from one non-greasespot to another. (Will have to check with Sudo on that terminology - think greasespotters are those who post here, and a non-greasespot is one who left twi and did not end up a greasespot by midnight. So I guess they could be one in the same.)

After pop, I decided to go to the seminar about "what really happened" and heard the teachings on mark and avoid. I confronted the leader on how off the Word that was. That seminar proved to me that the Way I had known and loved was no longer is existence, and I had no desire to be a part of what had taken it's place.

Thanks for replying, Kathy. It was nice chatting with you, also. I know my beliefs will differ signficantly from those of many people on this site, but I may find that they are similar to many, also. As my husband and I disagree on so much regarding God and the Bible, I am learning to not get emotionally involved in such discussions, just to listen and glean whatever jewels there may be in the conversation.

Yes, Mrs. Sudo I am. Thanks for the welcome. My husband spends so much time here, I thought I'd drop in for a while and get to know his on-line freinds. I've met several when we've traveled to places they live. Like everyone I've met so far.