Suda

Can't see the third picture on the first line. Kelly's Heroes? Hogan's Heroes? Three Heroes? Kelly's Error? Three Errors? Something's ringing a bell, just too dim to recognize right now. Suda

Page 3 - What’s Happening in this thread? (Page 1 is post #874 on page 44 of this thread, Page 2 post #891 on page 45) Hot buttons, Passions, Raw Nerves, and Pet Peeves Page 5 starts off with a bang with Deciderator’s post #82. It is awesome. It also hits some raw nerves and hot buttons. You can tell by reading it that his passion is “THE WORD! THE WORD! AND NOTHING BUT GOD'S WONDERFUL MATCHLESS WORD!”, and his passion is of itself a hot button, for some, Rascal included, as delineated in my previous post. The point I believe she may have missed in his post was “(Bold added by me.) Actually, they agree on this point. However, their passions differ significantly. His passion is stick to the Word, focus on it and nothing else. Study it, teach it, and apply it correctly. It works for him (but not for others, thus, making it a hot button for some.)A pet peeve of his seems to be (several separate comments I have “strung together” and highlighted for purposes of clarity). His pet peeve is another’s hot button. Focus on the good, dismiss the bad. Speak the truth and make the darkness dispel rather than dwelling on the darkness. Very good advice for those like him that “I was spared some of what others went through”, but not too sound for those who were not spared and need to work their way through the darkness so they can dwell in the light. What he interprets as “ego” may actually be “id” or “superego”. When someone’s psyche has been damaged, exploring the causes probably will require revisiting and reexamining the darkness. For most here at GSC this must include close examination of the organization, the leadership, the teachings, the whole shebang. To repair the damage to the psyche, they must understand the “what, when, where, how and who” of it to be able to overcome it. Wading through the cesspool is not pretty, but for many it is necessary. Also, “feeding their ego” could be received as “egotistical”, and that can put readers on the defensive. If taken as “fighting” words, civility is diminished. Another hot button, some of his wording may come across as “Way Speak”. Some here interpret that as being “Way brained” or “still being brainwashed by the cult” or “incapable of independent thought”. Deciderator comes across to me as being an independent thinker. He does adopt ideas from others, but only after thorough and careful consideration. I think his screen name speaks volumes on this note. I have found here at GSC that many avoid anything resembling “Way Speak” with as great an intensity as we adopted it when in twi. We celebrate the freedom of shouting “Christmas” in the same degree to which we avoid saying “bless” or “share” or “The Word” or “hold forth”, etc. Personally, I think lots of the “Way Speak” is great and a perfect expression of some of my thoughts and feelings, and I do not feel it necessary to avoid “being me” by using other words that do not convey my meaning as well, but would not offend others. I’ve got to be honest and “keep it simple, stupid” and can’t hide behind words that are not “me”. That to me smacks of lying, people pleasing, and conforming to fit in, in order to be accepted. And I’m not comfortable with any of those things. He also hits the plagiarism hot button. To some people, take Raf for example, who is a professional journalist, plagiarism is a big no-no, no excuses, never, no way, no how. I respect that about him and others who hold a similar view. As I’ve stated before, I was always under the impression that vpw did learn from other sources and incorporate their ideas into his teachings because he made no secret of it. I still have not looked deeply into the whole sections that were lifted word-for-word and published as his own. I have no reason to doubt it’s true, and agree that it was wrong, no if, ands, or buts about it. Eventually I’ll get to it - just not a priority to me at this time. At the same time, I agree with Deciderator on Some can accept that, some can’t, and that’s why it’s a hot button. And he hits another biggie - Chris Geer is a major raw nerve and hot button around here, and for good reason. The following statement wasn’t the way to “win friends, and influence people” in the opinion of many here at GSC, but he still has the right to state it without being ashamed. And this comment really hit home with me. It reminded me of my early days here. I walk into the café, scope out the place, and am soon surrounded by the welcoming committee that is eager to show me their favorite exhibits on display here. It was overwhelming. I was like “Jump back, Jack! Give me a chance to meander around the place at my own pace, and pick the exhibits I want to see in the order I want to see them. I appreciate your enthusiasm, but give me some space. I have no desire to as much as glance at some of your exhibits now, but I've made a mental note of your suggestions for future reference. Give me some time. Let me get comfortable. Let me establish a rapport with you folks, get to know you better. Then I may decide to check out your favorite exhibits. If I can’t find them, I’ll ask for directions. People here are welcoming and friendly so I’m sure someone will point me in the right direction when I am ready.” Thankfully, they did.When a newbie comes in and makes a confident, bold post that hits hot buttons, raw nerves, pet peeves, watch out - a food fight is on the way. How could it not be? Notice I did not say the newbie tried to incite a riot, nor threw the first punch, nor anything along those lines. But because he “stepped on some toes” and stirred passions, people will react, some more aggressively and passionately than others. But that’s what GSC is all about. And it can be overwhelming to the newbies, for better or worse. That's all for tonight, folks. Good night and sweet dreams! Suda

Page 2 - What’s Happening in this thread? (Page 1 is post #874 on page 44 of this thread) Hot buttons and Passions No questions or comments pertaining to page 3. Both pro-PFAL and con-PFAL “arguments” were presented well. Many good points made on both “sides” that were explained fully. Page 4. More good discussion. Some posters noted that PFAL gave great freedom due to new information they learned from the Bible, other noted they already knew these things prior to PFAL and thus did not experience the same feeling of enlightenment. Others seemed bored, and found no useful Biblical information at all, but did gain good life lessons from their involvement with twi. Hot button “the law of believing” arises. Some see this as “I want it, so God must give it to me”, others see it as prayer answered. Must admit, when I first heard about “the law of believing”, I thought it sounded very much like the popular ideas at that time of the “Power of Positive Thinking” and “Mind Over Matter”. No doubt those concepts help, but they are not “absolutes”. It is God who answers prayers. We are the askers. He may or may not answer them, that is His business. But I see great power in prayer and cannot imagine any harm it could ever inflict. But the “law of believing” did inflict much harm, as well discussed and documented here at GSC. Mr. Hammeroni gives good advice that prayer is but one tool in the belt. Often it works best when accompanied by professionals and experts in the field; i.e. (my words) if you are having a heart attack pray on the way to the ER; don’t rely on prayer alone to heal you. There’s nothing wrong with 2nd, 3rd, and any “level” of aid. Seek them all out! Rascal introduces her passion(s) quite well in several posts. It is evident from replies on later pages that what she says is often “lost in translation”, and some of the same “usual suspects” chime in and their mutual “song and dance routine” starts again in this thread. Below, I’ll try to summarize some of the points she makes that seem to be “lost in translation”. Rascal, if I am misrepresenting what you meant, please do post and correct me. (Rascal #1) Indeed, there are truths in PFAL, but they are not exclusive to PFAL, nor is taking the class a necessity to be able to operate the power of God in one’s life. Non-PFAL grads receive answers to prayer and experience miracles in their lives just the same as PFAL grads. (Rascal #2) Your relationship with God is personal and unique; it is not based on formulas nor magic words and your ability to operate them. Bad things do happen to good people, but the individual is not necessarily at fault. As the saying goes, “S hit happens.” God didn’t promise us a rose garden with no thorns. (Rascal #3) Knowledge can “puff on up” if learning new things and having a scholarly knowledge is the only goal. The purpose of the knowledge is to use it as your guidebook for living and apply it lovingly as Jesus Christ did. It’s a means to an end, not an end in itself. In fact, there’s a real danger to knowledge if it takes priority over lovingly applying it in a Godly manner. (Rascal #4) Biblical knowledge does not guarantee a Godly lifestyle. It must be applied. If ignored, self-confessed Christians can lead very evil lives. It is imperative to change your actions to line up with your knowledge, not twist the knowledge to justify your actions. People with a lot of Biblical knowledge can also misuse the scriptures to manipulate you and hurt you if they twist the meanings to suit their desires and “guilt trip” you into accepting their truth over what your gut tells you is true. The intent of the scripture is as important as the scripture itself. Beware of those who bend scripture, or take scripture out of context, and try to sell you on it. A person who has knowledge of the scriptures is not necessarily a Christian. A better indicator is the “fruit of the spirit” that is manifested (or not manifested) in their lives. If their behavior lines up with the “carnal” man, then they are most likely carnal, and not spiritual. (Rascal #5) Because of the misuse of PFAL by the teacher, she feels his example makes PFAL dangerous because people were/are/could be motivated to follow the example of the teacher in his private persona as well as his public persona. (Rascal #6) She celebrates the miracles and good memories that happened in her life as well as others while with twi. However, she is devastated by the evil she allowed in her life because she thought she was following God, as well as the evil perpetrated against other innocent believers. These things, coupled with learning of all the “behind the scenes” evil knocked her for a loop and pulled the rug out from under her. It left her shaken to the core of her being, doubtful, and confused. She’s working her way out of the quagmire slowly but surely, and finds GSC to be a haven in her recuperation. This healing process, and all her doubts, fear, worries, and anxieties are her passions now, and she has a heartfelt need to share this with others who are unaware and/or who are also in the recovery process. She still yearns for answers to many questions, and her passion in telling her story is to aid her in finding those answers through the help of others. Major questions that still haunts her include: Where was God? Was the good we reaped worth the cost of abuse to others first, me second? Due to Rascal’s tenacity and willingness to continue to “the fight to post” in the midst of “accusers”, I believe she will find that peace she longs for. End of page 4 (of 45 as of now)

Grand information, thanks! Looking forward to listening to today's podcast. Had guests arrive right after I tuned in, so missed 99% of it. Suda

Powerful. Suda

Scout, Thanks for telling us about the goodness of the people. It comforts us as we pray for such a disater. The goodness of people is a healing balm. Suda

Great thread, exwaycorps - thanks for starting it! I'll add just one at a time. DotMatrix, your example of prayer is astounding! Your words jump off the page. I can hear the confidence and authority in your voice, and feel the fervency of your spirit and it's power. Your words of tenderness and compassion towards the one you are praying for feels like a strong, comforting hug that cradles them and keeps them safe from the storm blowing about them. As you cradle them, you command the storm to stop and disperse. Then you call on the rescue squad to surround the one you are praying for, and transfer them for your loving arms to theirs. I can see the deliverance taking place. Your prayers are so powerful, that as I read them, I feel compelled to join in them, speaking in tongues and I read them, and apply the same confidence, authority, power, and fervency you modeled. Prayer must be one of your long suits. Please keep blessing us here with them. You are one dynamite woman! Suda

What's Happening in this Thread? Page 1 Hot Buttons and Passions Finally I have some time to devote attention to this thread. Here are some of my observations, be they right or wrong. All was going “smoothly” until post #9 when Oldiesman stated I added the bold to his statements to identify two hot buttons that were pushed and seem to always get a lot of response in the forums because many posters here have a passionate points of view on these (and some other) subjects, and, because of their passion, feel a need to express their point of view. That, imo, is a main purpose of GSC, to allow people to dialogue and express their opinions and passions, and for all of us to learn from the input. Groucho responds in post #10 to the hot button with In post #5, Catcup had also stated that she had knowledge of the things Doreen had first learned in PFAL through the Southern Baptist Church and a charismatic movement. Was the fact that she learned these truths outside of PFAL a hot button for Oldiesman? I’m not sure, but it has crossed my mind in observing his passion for speaking about his thankfulness for the PFAL class because of the many things he learned from it. Then in post #12 exwaycorps points to the distinction some here make: He clarifies his thoughts, and makes an observation familiar to many posters here His post brings into focus another hot topic - how do we untangle the incongruence between who we thought vpw to be (to some, the kind grandfather whose sole desire in life was to teach us the Bible and how to apply it to our lives and only had our best interests at heart) and how our trust of him led some to accept his words without question (to varying degrees) AND what we think of vpw now, and how this hindsight influences our trust in his teaching now, today, as we view them in light of who he was in private verus in his "public persona". This, to me, is the biggest dilemma and quandary faced by those who were associated with “the early days, or twi1, or the era of vpw” whether they discovered the incongruence during their time with twi or after severing ties with the organization. The incongruence was so shocking and bewildering that it plunged many of us into a deep quagmire of uncertainty and doubt. Some took the plunge quickly, others tread slowly into it, some may still be fighting entrance into it. For those who entered, we had to fight our way through and out of that quagmire, and it required much deep consideration and soul searching to resurface. Upon emergence, our thoughts about PFAL and vpw fell all along a continuum, from “Believe all I was taught” to “Believe nothing I was taught” and everything in between; and “vpw was a good person who had human frailties like all of us” and “he was an evil person lacking of any good”, and everything in between. And because of the emotional turmoil we experienced and overcame to varying degrees, many are passionate to expound their viewpoints on the subjects. Often, the intensity of the passion is equal to the intensity of the emotional turmoil experienced. I doubt that there will ever be a “like mindedness” of the posters at GSC on these two questions nor should there be. Instead we must each come to our individual conclusions. But we should be able to allow each person the freedom to choose their own opinion, and respect their right to their opinion, even if it is completely different from our own. Whenever this incongruence and quagmire surface, the passions run deep, hot buttons are pushed furiously, and another food fight at the café starts. In the case of this thread, and many others, it continues in full blown intensity for a time. Another hot topic, first posted by johniam in #13 is forgiveness. What it is (how is it defined Biblically or otherwise from our personal point of view); under what circumstances it is to be given (does the offender have to ask? Must the victim give it without being asked to relieve themselves of the bitterness? Etc.); is it always appropriate?; what does the Bible say about it (filtered through our own mind); etc., etc. In post #17, skyrider points out one of the many reasons there will never be “likemindedness” on the incongruence and quagmire by when he states, partially in jest, We all had different levels of exposure to vpw. For some it limited only to the PFAL class or other “public persona” times such as on stage at Limb, Regional, or Trunk functions such as the ROA. The more exposure we had to him, and those who represented him (those in leadership positions, corps), the more we learned about him as a “whole person”. His “human imperfections” affected us in different ways, depending upon whether they were received as direct or indirect, viewed as being within the bounds of acceptable behavior or overstepping our boundaries of comfort and extending beyond our concept of “the norm”. The incongruence became evident to some, remained hidden to others. Some could overlook or dismiss it, some could not. Some saw the variance to be wide, others narrow. Personal perceptions differed widely.*****End of review of page 1 (of 42 at present) of this thread***** Humorous but truthful observations, such as the one above by skyrider mentioned above, are received as literal by some, such as johniam in post #25. Some people are staking their ground, limiting their focus to their passions, and becoming intolerant of and blinded to anything outside that limited realm of vision. In post #29, TheHighWay brings out another important difference between posters here - at what point in our lives we came in contact with twi. It can have a huge effect on how we received the information presented in PFAL and other avenues of teaching of twi. Those who were younger and not equipped with many life experiences tended to be more impressionable and accepted more things at face value without questioning. Those who came from backgrounds of manipulation and abuse, and suffered low self esteem from such, tended to be more pliable, also. Those who were older and more grounded as a individual when introduced to twi, had an easier time sifting through the information presented and choosing to accept some and discard other “facts” presented to them. On average, they seemed to find it less difficult to “stay true to themselves” and act according to the moral compass established during their lifetime to date. They were more aware of the attempts at manipulation and coercion and were better equipped to avoid succumbing to them. Bramble, in post #31, points to the downfall of twi, when loyalty and commitment were transferred from God to an organization. Those with greater exposure to and/or involvement with the “organized structure” of twi were more aware of this proposition; many out on the “field” were ignorant of it. Some saw no proposition nor distinction, but thought loyalty and commitment to God and twi were one in the same as they believed twi to be the only “real source” of truth. End of page 2 (of 44 pages to date) All the time I have now. Hope I can return soon. Suda

Hope you get your fill of fun! And cake... and ice cream... and chocolate... and candy... Happy Birthday Suda

Failure to Launch Sarah Jessica Parker The Family Stone

Man, can't wait till I have time to respond to all of this. In rape court cases, when the only two eyewitness are the rapist and the victim, "second hand" testimony is gathered from those who were in contact with the victim, what she said, what she did, how she acted, etc. From this, the jury makes a decision on who to believe, him or her, as to whether it was consentual or rape. I know, been there, done that, hope to God I never am again. And yeah, I got the t-shirt, but felt too dirty, ashamed, guilty, confused, any emotion you can think of to be able to be able to "wear it", i.e., openly and comfortably talk about it, for years. And it was a STRANGER who broke into my apartment - not someone I respected and trusted. What I went through was horrid, what they went through was "horrid times a gazillion". One gives you nightmares, the other shatters your heart, steals your soul, and yeah, there are nightmares. But the nightmares are nothing in comparison to the rape of the heart and soul. Ever heard the term "preponderence of evidence" - not from eyewitnesses, but circumstantial evidence, like from "second hand" witnesses. Suda

Right again, Ca dreamin Suda

Yes, she was in Sounder, played the mother, wife of Paul Winfield. Good movie, imo. But I'm not a trekkie, so will have to pass on this one. Actually can't do Sci Fi at all - never even made it through ET and hear it is fabulous. Suda

Funny. Thanks for the chuckle. Suda

No, I haven't. But does sound interesting. Is this where you sell all your property, and abs on the gross, not the net profit? Suda

She does have a face, you know. Silly boys! Here, maybe this will help keep you focused on the second clue (as I'm sure you have no idea ) If that one doesn't ring a bell, how 'bout this one? Suda (enjoying seeing the boys having fun)

Was there a movie Handel's Messiah? Or Handled Returns? Only other things I can think of. Am truly stumped. Suda

There is so much I want to respond to on this thread, but am incredibly busy trying to get two children off to college in two weeks, and the other child is in 2-a-day football practices already. When I have the time, I will post. My lack of activity is not evidence of lack of interest or desire to participate, just inability at this time. Suda

Rascal and Catcup, I appreciate your replies. First let me apologize for linking your thoughts together and treating them as one. Though they are similar, they are not identical, and linking them was an error on my part. It seems we agree on more points than we disagree on. My problem is with the extreme nature of only one of Catcup’s comments: “So do you think all the sacrifices these women and others were forced to make, were worth your "blessing"? That's pretty damn selfish, knowing their lives were sacrificed so VP could sell you on a pack of lies, which you obviously STILL BELIEVE” . Because they are so extreme, they are incredulous and unpalatable to me. To me they indicate a dichotomy of choices that is unrealistic - either twi was all good or it was all bad. And yet we all agree that God was present in the goodness of many people affiliated with twi. Here’s the best analogy I can think of the express my concerns. I had an Jr. High English teacher (9th grade) who loved Shakespear, and that passion made her a fantastic teacher on the subject. Before her class, reading Shakespear was boring and confusing, I just didn’t get it. But she made it jump off the pages for me, she made it alive and dynamic, and to this day I enjoy reading the Bard because of her instruction. I will always feel thankfulness and gratitude towards her for this accomplishment in my life. I was in Jr. High back in the 60's, and this English teacher was the epitome of that culture. She looked like she dropped right out of a Yardley commercial with her hair, make up, and dress. And she was a rebel, she enjoyed pushing the envelope. I have no problem with any of these traits. But she carried them to an extreme, and crossed the line of morality. This was done in her private life, not at school, but was still reprehensible. She lost her job a few years after I was her student because the School Board learned that she and her husband enjoyed an open marriage, and she recruited current and former male students to be her playmates. She threw wild parties that involved alcohol, and then liked to have sex with multiple students as the grand finale to the party. (I don’t know if her husband brought his own playmates, or if he just enjoyed watching her pull the train.) I don’t know how many of her students were willing participants, how many participated due to peer pressure, etc., but some of the students were very disturbed by it, and that is how it came to the attention of the school board. Also, their consent or lack of it was really not the issue. The issue was that she abused the power and authority of her position as their teacher to involve them in amoral behavior. That is unacceptable any way you cut it. That facet of her personal life was so amoral and repugnant to me that I lost my respect of her as “Jane Citizen”. However, I still have great respect for her as a teacher of Shakespear. Now, if I take the statement above, and apply it to this situation, it might read as follows, “So do you think all the sacrifices these male students and others were forced to make, were worth your "blessing" in learning to appreciate Shakespear? That's pretty damn selfish, knowing their lives were sacrificed . . .” To that question, I would have to answer, they are not related. Her passion in teaching Shakespear was not based on her amoral behavior. They were two separate issues. One was good, one was bad. One was acceptable, one was unacceptable. My learning to love Shakespear under her tutelage was in no way related to her abuse of some of her students. So my “blessing” of learning to love Shakespear cannot be interpreted as being selfish. Nor were their lives sacrificed in order for me to learn about Shakespear. They are separate issues and totally unrelated. Therefore, if such a statement were made that tried to link them, I would find those statements to be unrealistic, unpalatable, and unbelievable. Suda (who will take time this evening to catch up on the other posts made since my last entry last night)

Never could buy into the organized "Witnessing Times". I witnessed then the way I witness now. When an appropriate situation comes up in everyday life and living, and questions are asked that require a "witness" type answer, I give that answer. Some people are eager to hear, and ask more questions, some are not and after a comment or two, they drop or change the subject. It's not something I plan to do every day, I just take advantage of opportunities as they knock. It's natural, it's easy, and my focus is on helping others deal with a situation, not to invite them to a worship service with me. Usually takes several conversations with that person before the ask if they can attend with me, and I'm glad to have them come along because I know they want to be there. Never saw any profit in trying to coerce someone into coming. And it was okay with me if they never wanted to attend a fellowship but did enjoy meeting one and one and discussing things. Guess it's obvious I never signed a lot of people up for the PFAL class, but people often seek me out for spiritual advice and counsel and prayer. And that's the way I like it. Suda

Sounds like "Gloria" but have no idea who the artist is. Suda

Is that a British comedy about homosexual couples? If so, that's where I knew the name. My daughter loves the show. Here's an easy one. Still love watching it. Suda

(Bold and Italics added by me) I see that here, too, quite often. If someone says there were gems of truth in PFAL, some assume that they believe every word that proceeded out of the mouth of vpw, and, therefore, have placed him on a pedestal and worship him as the MOG. They miss the reality that the poster is very aware that (1) These gems were interspersed with vpw’s private interpretations. When their personal research shows them that vpw’s pi is not true, they did not hesitate to call it error and discard it. (2) vpw was not beyond reproach, but, in fact had some despicable traits. However, despite that, he did teach some truth, and thank God for that. They don’t magnify the man, but rather the truth he taught. The title of this thread is "A Few Big Things I Learned Taking PFAL, Do you still believe them?", not "I Believed Everything in PFAL, and I still do, do you?" Seems it’s just the “Same old song, new verse” that goes on here all the time. If you post something good, someone else feels obligated to show the bad, and vice versa, so that the whole experience is revisited. Suda

I enjoy reading Catcup’s posts. They are very enlightening and she adds much to the healing process here at GSC. Her participation is an great asset to this place. I do struggle with her response to Deciderator on m’s story, though. Maybe I’m just missing what she, Rascal, and others are saying. After reading my thoughts, if that is the case, please enlighten me. My feelings on this were covered somewhat on the Misplaced Guilt thread I started. The good experiences during twi most people post about have to do with how God was living and real in their lives, their spiritual growth, and the way in which the majority of people really cared and ministered to one another. The role PFAL played was in imparting some knowledge on how to make this lifestyle a reality in their lives. With the exception of one poster here, I have never heard anyone say that every word in PFAL was true, but rather that parts were true and changed their lives. God was at the center of the “good times” - that’s what made them good. Most people here also agree that vpw had evil flaws in character which resulted in innocent people being violated and suffering great harm, physically, mentally, emotionally, and spiritually. They do not excuse that behavior, they detest it. And they can make the correlation between the evil in his life and the false teaching that resulted from it. Many of us spend quite a bit of time here in our early days making sense of the incongruity between the evil in the organization, and that despite it, God was able to reach, teach, heal, and deliver people and ignite the holy spirit in them. It seems illogical to then say that because they enjoyed the goodness of God while associated with twi, that they believe the sacrifice of innocent lives was worth their “blessing.” I have NEVER seen anyone post this. To me it is an unrealistic and twisted thought pattern. Certainly, if we had known on the front end that the cost of our deliverance through twi was the sacrifice of innocent people by evil leadership, we would not have made that choice. But we were never given that choice. It would have happened whether we took PFAL or never heard of it. So it would be untruthful for us to say that someone was sacrified for our deliverance. They were not! They were violated because those in authority and power abused it. To say is an illogical and untrue statement on two fronts. First of all, it is not the “pack of lies” but the “gems of truth” that delivered us, and it is those gems we hold so dear. It seems most have left the pack of lies behind. And for us to accept the guilt for the violation of others by vpw and others would be unsound and misplaced. We are not to blame for their actions - they are - period!Nothing we can do will change the horror of the evil things that happened it twi. It is beyond our control, and always was. What we do now is shed light on those to help people heal from those atrocities, get out of similar situations or avoid entangling themselves with them in the future. By the same token, nothing will change the fact that Godliness and goodness also came out of association with twi. And it need not be hidden or discouraged from display due to the evil that was going on in the inner sanctum. One does not negate the other. Both the good and the evil were real and happened. Both should be open for display and discussion. We should rejoice in the good and keep it alive. We should scandalize and shame the evil, and help people overcome it and avoid being manipulated it by it in the future. IMO, healing at this place comes from discussing the totality of our experiences with twi, the good and the bad. To accept only one and shun the other would not seem to allow a person to attain wholeness in their healing. Suda

Two words . . . Handled up? Hand gaze? Handed up? Boarded up? Still thinking . . . Suda (stumped as usual)