Suda

Page 5 - What’s Happening in this thread? (SECTION 5 OF 5 OF THIS POST) (Page 1 is post #874 on page 44 of this thread, Page 2 post #891 on page 45, Page 3 post #893 on page 45, Page 4 post #941, page 48; Page 6 post #1081, Page55) The Need for Empathy in Reading Post White Dove rejoins the conversation, and voices opinions similar to Deciderator on his unwillingness to accept one-sided stories as absolute truth. (Some punctuation added for clarity). Again, WhiteDove is pointing out the difference between legal and layman definitions. As stated before, to some this is splitting hairs. To others it a huge, significant factor. Deciderator and WhiteDove fall in the latter school of thought. Note both have said one can believe and accept the accounts as truth, but they can not be proven as truth. Neither has denied the accounts. In fact, both have stated the stories could and may well represent the truth. I post about my concern of Catcup’s statements as discussed above asking if it is fair for all twi’ers to accept the responsibility for the abuse committed by leadership, or is that asking us to accept misplaced guilt for something we had no knowledge of nor control over. Some may look at the posts in pages 5 - 10, and feel it would be appropriate to quote a famous line from Cool Hand Luke “What we got here is... failure to communicate.” I would disagree. Many enlightening insights were shared and were communicated effectively. When the tempers started to flare, however, there was more talking “at” each other than “to” each other for a while. I think we would all due well to heed the advice of sirguessalot in a recent podcast, to try to listen to each other with more empathy. To try and see what a person says through the poster’s eyes, try and understand where they are coming from. To try to identify what feelings, emotions, thoughts, and attitudes they are trying to express with their words. Our conclusions may be wrong, and if so, they can clarify them for us in a later post. But even if our conclusions are wrong, I think we’d come to a clearer understanding of the “big picture” they are trying to communicate. And the more effective we are as listeners, the better we become at communicating our intended thoughts, as well as receiving the intended thoughts of others. I’d also recommend we try to implement his suggestion of: If you have not checked out his thread “possibly helpful touchstones for the art of being genuine friends, ...merely an example for the GSC to ponder and explore”, I’d highly recommend it.Suda P. S. Off topic, but Socks, back on page 3, in post #42, you used a term I’ve heard before, but don’t know what it means. Could you clarify it, please? I’m just curious what the “Way Nash” is/was. Dooj, is it related to your post #954 Maybe it’s a trekkie thing, and I am woefully ignorant of Star Trek, Star Wars, etc., that entire genre

Page 5 - What’s Happening in this thread? (SECTION 4 OF 5 OF THIS POST) (Page 1 is post #874 on page 44 of this thread, Page 2 post #891 on page 45, Page 3 post #893 on page 45, Page 4 post #941, page 48; Page 6 post #1081, Page55) The Need for Empathy in Reading Post Jonny replies Some “cool headed” and light hearted remarks are exchanged. Things are calming down a bit. Excathedra has been following the thread. Since has been contributing short, concise thoughts occasionally since page 2. Now, on page 166 she comes further on board, and asks Jonny to clarify his perception of vpw. Jonny answers her well soon thereafter. This is just conjecture on my part. But I think some may be “ticked off” that he describes the acts committed as heinous, but describes vpw as a really bad guy. “Heinous” carries with it strong emotions and extreme disapproval while “really bad guy” does not. It is a bit incongruent to my way of thinking to say a “really bad guy” committed “heinous” acts. A more consistent statement would be heinous acts are committed by heinous (or evil, monstrous, abhorrent, horrendous, odious, or villainous) people. However, I am not trying to put words into Jonny’s mouth, just to point out a striking dissimilarity. WordWolf notes this, too, when he says Excathedra rejoins the thread in post #177. She quotes a portion of Jonny Lingo’s response to her along with the link to m’s story. To me, it is significant where she ends the quote. What is she saying by doing so? I can’t say for sure, but I’ll venture a guess. People’s involvement with twi usually began with the PFAL class. The truth some learned in the class touched their hearts and healed their souls, and ignited a spiritual awakening unknown to them until that time. Thus, the class served as a catalyst for them to align themselves with twi and “go for broke” giving their all to learn more about God, how to worship and serve Him and his people. It changed their lives forever. And unfortunately for some, their involvement led to great personal devastation and decimation. Is Excathedra asking, was the good I gained from PFAL worth the cost I eventually paid? I’m not sure, but that’s my guess. And for each individual, that is an honest question to ask ourselves.I think her statement goes further. By extension, she is asking Jonny is the good he gained is worth the price paid by all? If there had never been a vpw nor a twi, would God have reached us by another means? And would that means have been sufficient? And if so, would that other means not have been preferable if it had allowed those who had their hearts shattered and souls stolen to be spared such personal torture? If that is what she is asking, I can understand how she got from the point a to point be. But is it a legitimate question? Is it logically inferable? Is it reasonable to ask if person a’s decision to take PFAL can make them responsible and accountable for the evil perpetrated against person b? Emotionally, I can see where the question would be asked. Logically, I don’t think it is a fair question, as person a’s action did not cause nor directly contribute to person b’s hurt. Only the violator is responsible for his or her actions. If Excathedra indeed was asking this question, I do not say this to scold or shame her, just to get us all to think about whether or not it is a pertinent question. The link has been supplied for any who wish to pursue the information. Is it an invitation? a plea? a demand? Is it one for some, another for someone else? I don’t know. Catcup follows immediately and copies the link, stating that she can verify m’s story as m ws her 6th Corps roomie. She puts into words what I had been pondering? Rascal follows immediately with a taunt, a dare, for Deciderator. Catcup comes immediately behind and double dares him. It would seem civility has been abandoned at this point. Rascal and Catcup may be thinking, “It’s now or never for Deciderator. Extreme times call for extreme measures.” Page 10 begins with exwaycorps stating he can verify m’s story also, as "M" was his/her branch coordinator/WOW sister in State College,PA. '76-'77, and he/she has posted about that story previously. Rascal points out that 76-77 coincides with “the good old days” of twi1. WhiteDove asks Catcup “what exactly is it that you can verify?” Those the words “what exactly” may come across as sarcastic or caustic, in his later posts you realize he wants/needs specific information (not to pry, but to determine if the word verify is being used loosely, or in the legal sense), thus the choice of words. Catcup’s answer is given immediately. Deciderator does not accept the dare/double dare, but instead deflects them by stating something else he learned from PFAL and still believes. I think some received that as being a smart aleck remark. To me it said “I have said over and over and over again, until I am blue in the face, that I am not going to look at one-sided accusations and given valid reasons for my decision. I have tried to get the thread back “on track” to people discussing what (specific points) they learned in PFAL and do they still believe them (those specific points). Yet people keep disregarding my decision, and keep pushing me. This time I’m not going to take the bait and try to answer them again. It is obvious they will not respect nor accept my decision, so I will change the just change the subject, and do so with some levity. Perhaps that will cool things down and get us off the path we have been on for so long.” But the tone of the responses remains antagonistic. He tries to change the subject again by going back two days in time to an exchange between Jonny and Doojable regarding a quote in her signature from "Anais Nin". Jonny had flagged his question as “Off Topic” and asked Dooj if this was the same author who had written erotic stories, some with older men and very young girls, little children, a subject he had found disturbing. Dooj has answered in the affirmative, but that even though she was aware of those stories, she had never read them, but other things by the author. She also noted that the she was surprised when she learned this quote she liked came from Anais Nin as it was not characteristic of the author. But Dooj liked it so she used it. Deciderator made an interesting comment, showing an apropos parallel, and, again ending it with a bit a jest. Exie comes back in and asks Deciderator and Jonny if they have read m’s story yet. Rascal states she want to know, also, and further wonders Evidently she has taken offense at his choice to ignore their suggestion to read the story, just as he has taken offense at his statement that he will not look into one-sided accusations has been ignored. Further, she interprets his refusal to read m’s story as him not caring about lives destroyed. (I disagree with her assessment and think she may be reading attitudes into his post that are inaccurate.)

Page 5 - What’s Happening in this thread? (SECTION 3 OF 5 OF THIS POST) (Page 1 is post #874 on page 44 of this thread, Page 2 post #891 on page 45, Page 3 post #893 on page 45, Page 4 post #941, page 48; Page 6 post #1081, Page55) The Need for Empathy in Reading Post Oldiesman’s frustrations are growing, as evidenced by his comment to Pond that she can unchain herself from her computer is she doesn’t like reading what Deciderator has to say, and then pointedly asking Rascal What does this post indicate to me? Number one, OM is tired of the “bickering”. Rascal has made her point. When is enough, enough? (Actually a very good question.) But as was pointed out to me recently (and I am thankful I got it), she is not upset because she “can't you tolerate some posts about what some posters learned in PFAL”. She can’t tolerate people saying the other side should not be exposed, leave it in the past, move forward, because she feels passionately for many, that simply can’t be done without first facing the horrors and coming to grips with them. Once they have their minds around the where, when, how, who, then they can understand where they as individuals lost their on following God, and followed the leader, instead. When they have learned from their mistakes, they can determine how not to repeat them in the future. In the processing of doing the above, they have released their confusion and anger, and can come to some degree of forgiveness for themselves, first, and then others. At that point healing is taking place, and they can then move on. For some of us, the exercise only needs to be completed (maybe once?) or a few times. For others, the layers of the onion have to be peeled back one at a time, and it has to be repeated over and over again until all the hurt is faced, understood, and forgiven, and that onion disappears. For some it might be accomplished in a hours, for others it can take years. Time is not the important issue here, healing is. And number 2, does Oldiesman believe such actions are possible? That they may have happened? That they did happen? Does he even need or want to know? Or does he dismiss them completely? I don’t know. Now Rascal lobs a grenade into that trench to see if she can move Deciderator. Maybe, though, instead of lobbing the grenade, it was time to call a cease-fire, and allow Deciderator to move forward at his own pace. Just throwing that out for thought. Oldiesman and Deciderator try to change the subject back to the original subject of the thread, “A Few Big Things I Learned Taking PFAL”. Then Rascal reminds them, that’s only the first half of the thread title. She’s responding to the “Do you still believe them?” half, and giving the “why” behind her “no” answer. In post #135, Deciderator answers Rascal’s questions as to whether or not he will take the chance for the next step in spiritual growth and understanding. His post tells me that he’s feeling people are trying to back him into a corner, or drag him there, either one. He would prefer them to move away and give him some breathing room. The harder the push at this point, the harder he’s going to dig his heels in. As long as he’s fighting for breathing room, he isn’t likely to devote time to reflection. My advice, drop it for now. If he stays active here, the subject will come up again. Between now and then, he’ll have some time for reflection if he chooses to pursue it on his own.The pleads continue. Listen to his answer. I added the bold and the numbers. First of all, he does not deny them, says they may well be true. However, he told us previously that he requires more than one side of the story to be able to weigh the evidence, and determine his “verdict”. Here, explains more fully what he requires. And that information is not available here. Only portions of it, and he will not make a decision based on partial information. Period. End of story. He goes on to again tell us what he will consider. In the next post, at the top of page 8, WordWolf does a good job of presenting information relating to this. Those teachings of vpw are verifiable, and are examples of how he mishandled scripture to at least some of us. Has Deciderator heard those teachings? If so, does he believe the scriptures were mishandled? I haven’t read far enough yet to know the answers to those questions, or if he answers them at all. However, what actions vpw took in private based upon those public teachings is not provable in the legal sense. They can be assumed, they can be corroborated by others, but legally speaking they can not be proven as vpw is dead. And Deciderator requires legal proof to go any further in his consideration of the accusations. So, at this point, we must accept that he does not deny they happened, in fact, believes they may well have happened. That’s as far as he is willing to go, and has explained why several times. We may not like his decision, but shouldn’t we accept his decision knowing that his requirements can not be met? Can we get blood out of a turnip? The hammering continues by both sides. New information is introduced by Doojable in post #148, when she distinguishes between giving vpw credit, and giving God the credit working through many people associated with twi. She expounds on it later in post #153, Giving God the glory is an excellent reminder. However, I’d say the camp is still divided according to previous posts, on whether or not posters believe God did or did not work through vpw. And again, it is a subjective matter, not an objective one that can be proven, even in a non-legal sense.Then Jonny Lingo brings up the example of David and Uriah, and the fact that David repented. He is not the first in this thread to voice his opinion on whether or not VPW was a born-again Christian. But again, all the points raised here are subjective, and not objective. We’ll never know the answers to them, but these topics are hot buttons for many.In post #152, Waysider brings up a point that confuses me to a point. I don’t see where people have made this correlation, that their good experiences = a good nature of the “formal” organization. In fact, I see the opposite. I don’t believe since page 5 of this thread Oldiesman has said anything of a negative nature about the organization of twi, but I think everyone else has pointed to “dark sides” of it. The point of contention seems to be when the change took place, or if it was always there. Rascal brings up a distinction between David being of the flesh and vpw having the “opportunity” to be born of God’s spirit. I say opportunity, as Rascal concludes her comments with the fact she does not believe that he was. Again, a subjective versus objective point. And I don’t know if it is germane to this discussion, or a noteworthy observation. I want to point this exchange out, because I will refer to it later if I post a “Page 6" of my observations. In response to Rascal’s post of

Page 5 - What’s Happening in this thread? (SECTION 2 OF 5 OF THIS POST) (Page 1 is post #874 on page 44 of this thread, Page 2 post #891 on page 45, Page 3 post #893 on page 45, Page 4 post #941, page 48; Page 6 post #1081, Page55) The Need for Empathy in Reading Posts Rascal brings the severity to his attention with her comment in post #102 But we need to remain mindful, that the stories are one-sided, and that he probably is not aware of the numerous similar stories that give weight to each other and lend credence to that one-side. Just a reminder, not a statement of qualification. And Wordwolf, in post #103, restates it well and puts it in question form for his honest consideration. Again, I point out, Deciderator is not covering up, just choosing not to uncover. WordWolf again points out that using light to expose darkness is very beneficial, and that is why it will always be done here at GSC. WordWolf again points out the fallacy of the narrowness of “move on” philosophy proposed by Deciderator. WordWolf also expands on the severity of actions taken by vpw and lcm with The attempts to persuade Deciderator have continued for 2 pages. Jonny Lingo seems to be getting tired of it, and wants to redirect the thread back to the original topic with his post #104. In his post #107, Deciderator does not say he agrees or disagrees with what Wordwolf had posted, only “Wordwolf, what I said I meant.” So we have no further information from him concerning his knowledge of the amount or severity of the different kinds of abuse people suffered while affiliated with twi. We do not know if he is aware of the sexual abuse or those that committed suicide. He reiterates he does not have hero worship for vpw but describes his respect of him as To me that speaks of the due respect I described in my previous post. He goes on to describe his heroes, noting that they, too, had erred (due to being deceived or mistaken is implied by the use of the word falliable), but did not elaborate on those errors (and does not need to do so as they are not germane to this thread, imo), but indicates they were distasteful and/or disturbing to him. The next 3 posts seem to take on the flavor of accusations versus imploring and persuasion. Oldiesman then posts his support for Deciderator, noting that he seems to be type person vpw wanted to reach, one who would become a student of the Bible. Jonny Lingo posts next with additional support for Deciderator’s points of view. A battle seems to be raging now, with platoons being formed. Those opposed to Deciderator’s pov outnumber those in agreement with it. People seem to be getting weary of rehashing the same information, and few (sometimes, no) new arguments appear to be coming to the table. Deciderator’s post #120 address some the accusatory remarks. He seems to be wearing thin on patience, also. (In a later post he notes that he feels some owe him an apology.) He brings up that actions of the severity Rascal has described should have been addressed through the criminal justice system, and since they have not, he will accord those accused the presumption of innocence. (The fact that he has been falsely accused in a court of law seems to weigh heavily on his stance. This fact is stated in his post #135 on page 7). In post #122 on Page 7, Mr. Hammeroni points out that in the case of lcm, the sexual abuse did go to a court of law, although it was settled out of court rather than by a jury. In post #124, Mr. Hammeroni states the scripture basis erroneously used to by twi leadership to justify their sexual abuse The tenor of the thread is starting to reach a new level. Shots fired in the air were ineffective, as were shots fired around posters. Now the machine guns are coming out. Posters have gone to their trenches, dug in and refuse to budge off their causes. Post #127 by Rascal is a beauty.

Page 5 - What’s Happening in this thread? (SECTION 1 OF 5 OF THIS POST) (Page 1 is post #874 on page 44 of this thread, Page 2 post #891 on page 45, Page 3 post #893 on page 45, Page 4 post #941, page 48; Page 6 post #1081, Page55) The Need for Empathy in Reading Posts Empathy: the intellectual identification with or vicarious experiencing of the feelings, thoughts, or attitudes of another. Obviously, my “Page 4" post was and emotional response to pages 5 through 10 of this thread. I revisted them to refocus on my original intent, to understand “What is Happening in this Thread”. To readjust my perspective, and refresh my mind on the “thoughts and feelings” expressed on page 5, I found it necessary to review some of the previous pages. Here are my observations. The first “hint” in this thread that PFAL and “all in New Knoxville” was not as it appeared was mentioned by Bumpy in post #57 on Page 3. It was not mentioned again until post #75, on Page 4, by Rascal. She went on to beautifully summarize her beliefs about PFAL and the darkness it caused in her post #77 on the same page. Then comes Deciderator’s post # 82 on Page 5 that is the catalyst for the firestorm to come. He begins with his favorite one-liner from PFAL “"IT'S THE WORD! THE WORD! AND NOTHING BUT GOD'S WONDERFUL MATCHLESS WORD!" In the body of the post he mentions several times about how “all was not well at The Way” nor with PFAL, and how he applied this one-liner during that time period. (Topics strung together by me, and combined into one quote). So we understand he is aware of politics and upheaval as well as the plagiarism, and that there are other documents and things posted here about the dark side of twi/vpw/pfal, but that he feels no need to know about anymore of the dark side. He never mentions the abuse, sexual or otherwise, so we don’t know if he is aware of it or not. What about his post really sticks in people’s craw? (1) His approach of sticking to the word, holding it forth in love, and not dwelling on the past nor in darkness, but dwelling in the present and living in the light is seen to be too simple, narrow, and focused. (2) His insistence that posters here are wasting their time by exposing the darkness and seemingly dwelling on it and seemingly not moving forward. (3) His ignorance of the purpose of GSC. (4) He is apparently unaware of how vpw twisted scriptures, beginning in PFAL, to justify an ungodly lifestyle, and how the example he set was modeled by so many in leadership (5) He is apparently unaware of the depth and breadth and severity of the spiritual, emotional, physical, and sexual abuse suffered by multitudes of people (not multitudes I each category, but multitudes encompassing all the categories). (6) His lack of desire to look into it, and thereby be able to understand the mission of GSC and why the stories should be told, and the healing that results from working through the darkness and coming to a new light. If he knew, wouldn’t it open his eyes to the point that he could see how the simplicity of his solution would not work for many? Would it not open his eyes to a bigger picture - the contamination of the leaders and how their deceitful handling of the scriptures tainted what they taught and misguided others into spreading the same polluted doctrines and practices while erroneously believing they were the truth and in alignment and harmony with the scriptures? And because so many here feel passionately that those stories must be told, it is brought to his attention in very descriptive terms. Skyrider first brings it up later on that page in his post #86. Rascal adds to it in her post # 88 with In post #93, Skyrider points out that love is just not dwelling in the light, but must also include In post #97, Tbone expands on this idea After reading all the persuasive arguments, Deciderator stays with his passion, and gives us a further reason why he does not care to delve into the darkness in his post #101 on Page 6. If he can’t hear both sides of the story, he doesn’t care to hear only one side. That I can understand (and can accept that some cannot). He fails to realize, however, that people are not holding it in, they are letting it out so that healing can take place and they can move forward. And that the old song “I Love to tell the Story” of the good news of the gospel has a similar application in here, “I love to tell the story, because I know ’tis true, It answers (substituted for satisfies) my questions (substituted for longings) as nothing else would do. . . I love to tell the story, it did so much for me; And that is just the reason I tell it now to thee. . . . I love to tell the story, for some have never heard The message of deliverance (substituted for salvation) . . .” He restates his belief that we must forgive, even extreme acts. But as he may not understand the severity of the acts committed by some in twi, he may not realize his example does not strike the punch he thought it would.

Pogo is what I was going for. What type of cycle? Colors represent what kind of pattern? Suda (giving clues)

Benson. If I'm right, someone else take it away for me, please. Won't be back until late Sunday. Suda

Good thing you guessed it, George. I've never heard of Fernwood Tonight. Can't see your 2nd picture. Recognize the first one as Benjamin Franklin. Suda

Too tired to think, sure someone will guess it. Will see the result when I check back in a few days. Moving week for daughters. Will be glad when they're settled in safely and I'm out the "moving van" phase! Suda

Love you ((((((Exie)))))). Suda

Thanks, White Dove. Looks like lots of good reading available. Will check local bookstores, too. Suda

Beautiful and heart warming post, Eyes. Thanks. Suda

Michigan hospitality rivals "southern hospitality" in my book. Sure loved my visit with Abi, Sushi, Shellon, Oneophile, and Lori earlier this summer. Suda

Another Spot, In answer to your question: I realize that there are posters here, and well as lurkers that are near and dear to my heart, that regard VPW as their "Father in the Word" and that my thoughts and observations could hurt them to read and may hurt more coming from me. I considered their reactions thoughtfully. But I felt more compelled to ask my questions and share my observations and thoughts in order to receive feedback than to protect their feelings. Am I saying God asked me to do that? No, just that I felt compelled. I do feel He has inspired me during my work through this thread, but I will not attribute all my thoughts and observations to Him. Many are just mine. And it's often difficult for me to discern the difference between them. Suda

Rascal, Best way I know how to answer these questions at this time is: First of all, my belief is that a false prophet is of the devil. Do we agree on this point? If what I believe is true, why would the devil lead us to an organization where we would find (for the first time or not) the information to get us born again? What possible reason would he have? Some may say so he could then steal it from us, and kill our relationship with God. But to me he would want to prevent the new birth first and foremost. And if unable to do that then steal and kill it. And I do not believe God brought people to vpw. I think he brought people to the information that he presented which represented God and in was presented in a format that would reach us. And, as importantly, God brough us to the fellowship of believers among whom to grow and mature spiriutally. I've been involved with a lot of Christian groups in my life, but never have I found anything close to the people multitudes I found in twi, not only their caliber, but the zeal and excitement they had for learning to put God first, and helping each other do the same. The people are unparalled anywhere else in my experience. Many of us heard the Bible other places, and were born again, but I don't know how many had the caliber of fellowship, except in those dynamic ministries that vpw so skillfully attracted and then abolished their leaders, kidnapping many of the followers in the process. In PFAL we were introduced to the information of how to discern between truth and error. However, when we say it in twi, we were talked out of accepting the reality, and often brow beaten into submission. But in that process, how many of us had thoughts of "This is wrong." "This is not right according the to scriptures nor morals nor ethics." "Listen to your heart, your guts, don't be deceived". That was God in there trying to protect us. Some heeded to one degree or another, others did not. If we failed to heed the admonitions of God, we got hurt, and badly. But that was not due to God, that was due to the devil. Why were we called to "a ministry" where good and evil were so intertwined? We weren't. We were not called to vpw or twi or PFAL. We were called to God and His people, who, at that particular point and time, seemed to be centered around twi due in a large part to kidnapped ministries of other men. And twi had a vehicle for quick, efficient, widespread reach of those hungering for the truth that the other ministries lacked. So they jumped on the bandwagon, at least temporarily, and added their voices to the call to PFAL. Those men, along with many of the ministers affiliated with twi were salt of the earth men who did truely strive to honestly serve God and His people. Many who saw the evil left, and were so berated that we did not consider following them when we should have. And of those left, the ministers fell largely into two camps (1) ignorant to the underbelly or (2) active in it. Those ignorant could not protect us due to their ignorance. God had to protect us. And if we failed to "register" His warnings, we did not heed them, and we got hurt. How did we get tricked by the adversary? I don't know for sure. But as so much emphasis was placed on discerning the good from the bad, and it was drilled into our heads that twi was the best thing available on earth, we were tricked into thinking "can't be any bad here, must be all good". If they were hiding something, why would they tell us how to detect it? Because that was the devils big trick and it worked wonderfully. We accepted the good and the misrepresented scripture as truth, not the deep, darkest evils. And as we adopted the misrepresenation of scripture and misapplication of it, it led us from God to the devils spider web and we got caught. But God did warn us, we just failed to comprehend the warnings. Those were more subtle than the sexual and emotional abuse. And that's how we were hurt. That's the best I can explain it right now. And on a different note, I've read a lot recently about the "absent Christ". It is obviously one of those things I heard and dismissed. But I do plead ignorance to not having a real relationship with Jeus Christ. I know he is my Savior, I know what He accomplished for me, I know He is my mediator with God, but I don't know how to practically apply that knowledge. I may well be misapplying some attributes of Jesus Christ to God. Any good books on this subject, or body of teaching, anyone can direct me to? I'd love to learn more about it so that Jesus Christ can be as living and real in my life as God is. Many thanks. Suda edited to add Tonto and I must have been posting simultaneously.

What did PFAL do for me? It taught me a lot of scripture I had never read before because I found it hard to read and understand the KJV and most other versions of the Bible I had been exposed to. It taught me how to understand "KJV Bible-ese" much in the same way my English teacher taught me to understand "Shakespear-ese". From those scriptures I found learned more about who God was, how precious I was to Him as an individual, and what the "desires of His heart" were for me as his beloved child. I finally understood in my heart the love God had for His children. I had been exposed to so much "hell fire and damnation" teaching that went at cross purposes with what I believed God to be. PFAL was the first place that stressed his love, and his desire for tender fellowship with each of His children. This really gave me the foundation upon which I developed a personal and intimate Father-daughter relationship with him. The research skills were tremendous. I never knew about uncials (sp), cursives, the lack of punctuation and title headings. That answered a lot of my questions as to how and why there were "errors" in the Bible. I had never heard of a Concordance, an Interlinear and all the research books we were introduced to. I finally had to ability to go to the Bible myself, study it and learn it for myself. That was thrilling! I was glad to have this volume of information presented to me in "crash course" format. It was the scripture alone, on it's own shining as a diamond, and the research skills that I brought away from PFAL. I have no allegiance to the class per se, but the wealth of information provided in the class. And I'm confident other excellent "crash courses" exist in lecture form, DVD form, or a book or series of books. I have not searched for them since taking PFAL because it satisfied what I was looking for at that time. But I think having the knowledge of a "crash course" is a good tool in my belt in helping others to enjoy the same opportunity I had. When I run across something I find to be better than PFAL, I will have no qualms making it my "favorite" in place of PFAL. "Witnessing to put a class together" always sat at odds with me and I never participated in the "crush". What I consistently did was share my thoughts and opinions in everyday life with anyone with whom the subject came up naturally, and not in by a forced means. If we got to know each other better, and they desired to attend fellowship with me, that was fine. If after being exposed to twig, they expressed a desire to take the class, I was glad to help them register. But I never witnessed PFAL or twig, but rather what God meant to me in my life, to people, and the role PFAL had played in my relationship with God often came up. Obviously, I was not a big "bread winner" in terms of new students for the class, but that was fine with me. The majority of the notes I took while working through this thread I have not posted here. But here's a response to Tom Strange I made in my notes that seems appropriate to share at this time. Excellent idea. Is there a B. G. Leonard class I can attend or purchase? This is an question, not a sarcastic remark. I would be very interested in it, if so. Are any of his writings still in publication? That should be easy enough for me to check out on the internet. I have put it on my “To Do List” and will check into it in the near future. If you have any information that would help me in this regard, I would appreciate you pm’ing it to me, or posting it here on this thread for the benefit of anyone else who is interested. I’m always looking for new avenues of things to study and share with my fellowship. We draw our teaching from many different sources. Anything we find that is of interest to us is "game" for sharing. Thanks again for the suggestion! Now that I have read Dot Matrix’s post #483, I would like to ask, "Which B.G. Leonard book you got, Dot? What other of his books do you recommend. And what other books from other authors do you recommend?" Am really learning from all the feedback. Many thanks to each of you! Suda

Oakspear, I think you and I agree on a lot of what you have posted. My visual picture of the class is like a spider web you see after a hard rain. The web itself would be invisible if it were not for the multitude of tiny droplets of water shining off of it's surface. And those shining droplets represent the gems of truth in the scriptures read in the class. Those scriptures stood alone and brought great joy, healing, and freedom to me. Whether it was because I was "as dumb as a door nail" or because God was working with me to dismiss the underlying web of deceit, I do not know. I found it confusing, was unable to understand it, so I didn't spend much time trying to understand it, but rather dismissed most of it. I was very fortunate that most of the leadership I was around did not espouse the "VPW said it, that settles it" or "PFAL=the Word" (I was always taught there were errors in it and that as research brought new light onto the subject, HQ would change their teachings accordingly - don't think that actually happened - so I didn't put much in "abeyance", I just dismissed it) or "The Ministry=The Word=God". They encouraged individual study and questions and did not "fly off the handle" if my conclusions went against "the party line". My stubbornness in not accepting things unless they bore out my research and/or rang true with my "inner being" or "conscience" probably played a large part in what I kept and what I just dismissed. Bottom line, I guess, is I never felt pressured into accepting things that went against my gut feelings. The few times people pulled that "melt you face until you change your mind" crap on me, I called them on it, and told them they were the ones who needed to change, not me. I would not buckle under such pressure, and so dismissed their efforts, and took anything they said in the future, either to me personally or in a "public, group setting" with a lot of salt, not just a few grains. I did not deem them to be trustworthy. And I guess since I bucked against what looked "off" to me, I was not drawn into all the deceit. So I see the class as the water droplets and not the web. I understand my experience was different from many. In reality, I think the class for unique for each of us in many ways. But I think I got more water from class than spider web. And since I dimissed any spider web I felt sticking to me, when I look back at the class, that part is largely irrelevant to my experience, so I don't give it much heed. But that's just my opinion of my experience and how it shapes my view of PFAL. Suda

Another spot, Great post and lots of things for me to consider. And I will as I continue to research this topic. I can honestly say I never turned away from these while in twi, so I could not return to them as I had never left them. They were always of primary importance to me, and have been for as long as I can remember. That will take some real honest self examination, which I will follow through on. At this point, my gut feeling is “no”. I did see vpw as my “Father in the Word” but never saw him as infallible and recognized some of his “berserk” ways. I was confused by them, and chalked them up to “usual human frailties”. But I didn’t give him a pass on them either. So, as I say, some real honest soul searching is needed by me to answer this question. Excellent question. Thanks for bringing it up. Suda

Rascal, That is something I definitely plan to study along with "inheritance" in Galatians 5. You have provided the "jumping off" place for my need "research" project. My notes are full of things you have said that I want to investigate further. You have been a treasure in my pursuits and I appreciate your questions. Consideration of them raises many excellent questions I want to pursue. Please, keep the coming girlfriend. Ham, Your points are solid and well taken. I know little about the history of Capone and his soup lines. From your comments it sounds that they were not altruistic in nature, but rather the bait to snare more people in his web. I defer to your judgment as I'm ignorant on the subject. Suda

Doojable blesses me with each and every post. Her two strongest attributes, imo, are - her wisdom and the clarity in how she expresses it. - her keen sense of humor Truly, a wonderful Godly woman! Suda

And I'll bet the poor were thankful for the soup and doughnuts, and were thankful that Capone gave these things to them, all the while recognizing what an SOB he was in most areas of his life.I recognize the areas in vpw's life where he was an SOB, and detest him and his sin in those areas. But I'm also thankful that he had good things about his life and did serve soup and doughnuts to those who needed them and were in his ear shot. Doojable, great point and well made. I'd have to agree 100%. Suda

LOL, Wasway. Perhaps it would make it clearer if wasn't as clear as mud to me.Will have to go look that one up and see if it becomes clearer then. Suda :blink: Okay, looked it up: (1) a short, pithy, instructive saying; a terse remark or aphorism (2) A terse, witty, instructive saying; a maxim. Guess I need more morning caffeine. Still not getting through this thick skull of mine. Fern wood peace sir, kinda sounds like Fernwood pizza. Is that anything like pineapple pizza? Suda (still scratching her head which encases her feeble mind)

Abigail: Johniam: If that's true then we're all robots. Abigail, in your case it wasn't VP, but it was people, not God, who witnessed to you, agape'd you, taught you the word face to face, etc. Same old double standard: give God the credit, not VP, but give VP the blame, not the devil. Well, I think God is going to give people credit for what they do that is good. If you understand my posts, you will see that I agree with Rascal, Abigail, and johniam. No, I’m not wishy washy nor straddling the fence. I believe VPW was both born-again and possessed. Similar to the “Jekyll Hyde” scenario. When he was operating the power of God in his life, God was able to reach people through him. God always gets the glory. And part of the way that we give God the glory is giving due respect to the source from which we received the information. It is absolutely true that vpw was not the only source of Godliness in twi. It was abundant in the lives of many people there. Ed*ie Col*man will always have a special place in my heart for “witnessing and undersheparding” me. To my knowledge he is still the great person he was back in our college days. Being thankful to Ed*ie and recognizing the vital role he played in my spiritual growth, honors him as an effective servant of God, as well as honors God by recognizing Him as the source of Ed*ie’s goodness. It is quite possible that all of the blessings someone received during their affiliation with twi came from someone other than vpw. In that case, vpw would not be accorded the due respect, but rather the person(s) who acted as the instrument of God in touching that person’s life. Due to possession in some areas of his life, vpw also acted upon the dictates of the devil. In those instances, the devil is to be blamed as well as vpw. It works both ways. God is given the glory for good things, as is the “instrument” through whom he was working. The devil is credited with being the source of the evil things, as well as the “instrument” through whom he was working. The point of disagreement between Rascal and me, is that she can not see how anyone who could act as heinously as vpw did, could have God in them in at all. At this time, we will agree to disagree, but it will make for wonderful discussions and learning between us. I’m sure I will learn much from Rascal in those discussions. Suda

He was ordained clergy. He had made a committment before God to serve Him and His people. He had a salt covenant with God and with us. He turned his back on that. As he said somewhere (it may have been at lcm's ordination) about men who do such things, "God have mercy on their souls. They are going to need it!" It really puts new meaning to his grave marker, imo; I think he realized to some degree how horridly he had failed and why, and regretted it. Perhaps it was God's mercy for him, and his grace for many (and most unfortunately, not all) of us, that kept that Private Persona largely hidden from view. I've mentioned this many times to people, but never understood it until now. At lcm's ordination, when vpw passed the mantle to him, and placed it around his shoulders, I felt a most heavy, crashing thud in my heart. Not a rejoicing but more like a death knell. And it confused me. The ordination ceremony had no joy for me. The fellowship before and after was wonderful, but the ceremony it self lacked life and vitality. It was primarily pomp and ceremony. Some of the teachings were good, but even they lacked the dynamic force I was accustomed to hearing at HQ. I think it was because when vpw passed that mantle, it was the final death knoll for twi as some of us had known it. lcm had many more "bats in his belfrey" than vpw. His "ministy" began with an egocentric, self aggrandizing, spectacle, "The Athletes of the Spirt". That was the first thing I never felt any desire to buy or have anything to do with. It was a "good Hollywood production" but nothing else. There were little pieces of good, but overall it was a failure in a spiritual sense. It probably had great potential, but lcm had to be the star, so I'm sure he quashed what was good. Once he took the reins, the organization spiraled downward quickly. That's when the exodus began, and the mass exodus ended with "the loyalty oath." lcm never had the spiritual "glue" to even keep up a pretext of Godliness, as VPW had. Chas's thread about "What is was then" or something along that lines comes to mind. Yeah, the early days were grand. But why? In addition to stealing a class, vpw hijacked the ministries of great spiritual men at that time. God was alive and vital in many people. So it was not only vpw, but the ministries of those great men, that drew us to twi. It had the potential for "setting the world on fire", but vpw invited the devil in, let him permeate it, steal, kill, and destroy anyone he could, so it turned from greatness and light and became darker and darker until the light faded away completely with lcm. God must have wept sorely that the devil was able to hijack a true (at least one of the true) revival for our generation. It makes it easier for me to understand now how people could come out of twi and chuck the whole thing. It rips my heart out when people equate my dear God to Santa Claus, and the Bible to fairy tales and fables. Nothing could cause me greater hurt or pain, not even the death of my beloved parents comes close, and that was devastating to say the least. If they were born again, the devil has been able to steal from them and kill them spiritually now, but they are not destoyed, for the God in Christ in them lays dormant in them, just waiting to be revitalized. It is my prayer for them that occurs sooner rather than later. I sometimes wonder if it is pride that was their downfall. Tom Strange's post comes to mind again Please note that I am snipping only a part of his quote, and do not ascribe such pride to Tom Strange personally. I don't know what his innermost feelings are, nor do I need to. But that is just my viewpoint. Many seem okay with making that choice, and they are certainly free to do so. Just standing in my shoes, I can see how it may happen, but couldn't imagine myself ever making that decision. So my desires for them are selfish. I can't imagine life without God, and wish that for everyone. To me, to be without God is to be without hope in this world. But I can accept some not feel as I do, and I will accept their choices. I think it will always make me sad, but I can accept it and move on. Suda P. S. And as for lots of VPW's later teaching - he had an expert research staff at his disposal as well as talented Corps writing research papers, often on designated topics if I understand correctly. And "if you work for Proctor and Gamble, your research belongs to Proctor and Gamble" not you, the individual. Those above you are entitled to take it and use it, and if they have no ethics, will not give you any of the credit. Much of the research - when done with the researcher and God, and not under devilish parameters established by vpw - was grand. And vpw incorporated it into his own teachings and publications and some of them were top notch, imo.

Leaf, fern Wood, grain, floor, flooring John Lennon, peace Paul McCartney, sir, honored Don't know, but I bet it's good! Suda