Suda

Sorry, unfamiliar with Grandview, USA. But I'll jump in next time I see something I know. Finally finished with that LONG thread and will spend some more time on the fun stuff. Suda

You're up, anotherDan! Don't get overheated mowing the lawn! Suda

Bumpy, I understand what you're saying. This is the first and hopefully the last "long winded tangent" here at GSC for me! This particular thread just brought up lots of things I needed and wanted to delve into for some needed paradigm shifts for me personally. Once I started posting the notes, I received requests from others to continue to do so. So I have posted the notes for them. I realize most (if not all, by this time) people will skip them entirely, and that is okay by me. Know the style is boring - just notes - not manuscript style. Sorry, but didn't have the inclination to spend even more time making it "pretty" and "user friendly". I do have a life, hee hee! Actually, all the notes were taken about 3 weeks ago and I have just been posting them as time has permitted. Glad it's all over now! Suda

Page7 - What’s Happening in this thread? (Section 5 of 5 of this post) Oakspear #1156 Result of the misused scriptures: Doojable #1034 and #1058 If we had known, we would have left. Who’s to blame for the abuse?Groucho #1030 Impact upon those who were abused hearing about goodness of vpw: But Now I See #948 Result of the good:jeaniam #1051 Skyrider #1154 Deciderator #1141 A bottom line for me is that God was able to reach many through vpw/twi/pfal. Most of those reached wised up and left twi, complete with the truths they had learned from scripture and the hurt they endured due to misuse of scripture. Many of us are now together again at GSC where we clarify "old" truths and share new truths, and where we help each other heal from the wounds inflicted during twi. And what keeps us coming back is the sweet fellowship among grand people who have great love in their hearts and a desire to help others. Suda (glad to have finally posted the last of her notes, and sure you are glad, too!)

Page7 - What’s Happening in this thread? (Section 4 of 5 of this post) WhiteDove, re your post #899 I’m unfamiliar with the thread. Not sure if this comment is in earnest or jest. Have I stepped on your toes by something I have said? To everyone, if I have mis-characterized you, please do correct me. My posts are my observations and likely have errors in my understanding. I welcome feedback and constructive criticism.Oakspear’s posts always challenge my thinking - guess that’s why I like them so much. In Post # 1,001 That is my current belief, Oak. I welcome further information you have on the subject. If you or anyone else has a different perspective, I’d enjoy reading it. What do you think it means, Oak? As stated in my post #1,162 on page 59, Tom Strange’s post # 573 hit a paradigm for me I needed to work through. Stated below are some “quotable quotes” that may help those new to GSC to unravel the incongruence between (1) the public and private personas of vpw, (2) the truths taught in PFAL and the errors in doctrine due to misuse of scripture, and (3) where and when God prevailed in twi and where and when the adversary did so. I don't necessarily agree with all of them, but all caused me to think carefully.Why were people “led” to twi? Larry N. Moore #1101, 1106, and 1112 Doojable #1118 (I added italics) Misuse of scripture: Groucho Marx#968 Oakspear #1072 Tbone #977 and 1131 (Sorry, don't know who to give credit for this one)

Page7 - What’s Happening in this thread? (Section 3 of 5 of this post) Excathedra is not wallowing, she is doing all she can to peel layer after layer off until she is left with only that core, and then she can dispose of it. And I think she is close to that point. His comment of her (implied - wanting and enjoying) being the queen victim of the GSCafe, clearly illustrates to me he does not understand her healing process. And due to his misunderstanding or ignorance (not used in a derogatory fashion, in a descriptive sense), he sees her actions as trying garner attention and be hostess to a pity party. Nothing could be further from the truth, imo. This comment is hurtful. Her reply in post #436 makes this quite clear. as does her post #449 WhiteDove, I’d like to give you a point of constructive criticism if I may. Your posts would be much easier to read and understand if you used punctuation and capitalization in all of them. I find I have to re-read them several times to find “the natural pauses” where a “.” or a “?” or a “,” should be inserted. I think others would have an easier time understanding the excellent points you make in your posts if you helped them by using punctuation. In post #362, Doojable makes an excellent point that I think bears repeating. Deciderator’s post # 466 is quite illuminating for a number of reasons. (1) He has decided he will take a look at Excathreda and Catcup’s story. Currently the posts are not “badgering” him to do so. Rather, several posters have come forward and spoken descriptively about how the view the despicable behavior of vpw as a minister treating some of his flock so cruelly. (2) It would seem he either (a) is willing to look at more details than have already been shared on this thread, or (b) did not see what has already been posted on this thread, or ( c) say them but did not read them, and does not know where to find them now. I’m confused as how to interpret his reply. Things are heating up again. Punches being thrown. And, imo, still because people aren’t reading what is written and understanding what the poster means. But I could be mistaken. Dot Matrix’ posts 483 and 484 are jewels: As many have stated, it was God that attracted us. For some of those who continued to get more and more involved with the organization, their focus and allegiance was slowly but surely transferred from God to the organization, and there was no escaping the effects of both the sound and the unsound doctrines at play. Thus, good results and bad results were experienced by them in varying degrees. The good results caused gain with no adverse consequences. The bad results came with adverse consequences that ran the gamut from slight to extreme. Thus necessary healing will cross the same gamut, slight to extreme. Slight can take very little time, extreme can take a lifetime. There is a linear correlation between degree of severity of an offense and the degree of severity of the damage inflicted. However, the relationship between time required to inflict damage and time required to recover from such damage is not linear. I know of no objective unit of measurement that can gauge this phenomena. Therefore, it is impossible to say if x happened it will take this long, i.e., a specific unit of time, for the person to heal. And thus the assumption that “Since I have healed from the wounds inflicted due to my association with twi, so x should have been able to do so, also.” is invalid. No valid comparisons can be made. Each case is individual with unique parameters, this reality should be recognized and accepted as such. And to put this understanding into practice requires empathy and practicing compassion, imo. Post #485 is a beaut! And puts this into more perspective. Pond makes some valid points in her post #490 People continue to misunderstand WhiteDove. In post# 495 he sets one record straight, if one chooses to believe what he says, and I do, If you listen to his posts you will hear “I do not deny the accusations leveled against VPW. I have reason to believe they did in fact happen. But, my belief that they happened does not make them a statement of truth. Truth concerning such accusations in the USA can only be proven in a court of law in the presence of a judge and jury.” And, “I have reason to believe they did in fact happen. However, with only being able to learn one side of the story, I cannot know if each and every detail occurred according to the poster’s pov. With every accusation made in life, there is at least Side 1 and Side 2, and what actually happened lies somewhere between the two. It may be very close to Side 1 or to Side 2, or it may be in the middle, or anywhere else in between.” And, “It usually takes two to tango. In many instances, both bear some responsibility for what happened, however slight it may be. But because someone bears some responsibility, it does not mean the action taken was correct or deserving. For example, if you walk down Main Street at 3 a.m. and get mugged, it does not mean the mugger had a right to do so, nor that you were asking to be mugged. It does mean you put yourself in a potentially dangerous situation and reaped that potential danger.” So where does that leave him personally? He sums it up well in his post #614. (I added some of the punctuation and capitalization for clarity, hope it does not skew his intended meaning. I also added the bold.) Oldiesman, some of your posts make me think you must live in a deafening world of silence, and you will do anything to break that silence. Therefore, you type posts just to hear the sound emitted from hitting the keys. Any logic or purpose in many of your posts is lost on me. The golf talk starts. I really don’t feel they were trying to minimize Excathredra, just uncomfortable with how to respond. So they tried to bring in some levity. Rascal states it well in #498 But those who are uncomfortable need compassion also, in teaching them how to respond in these type situations. I posted some ideas near the end of my post #1081 in the paragraph beginning “All you posters out there”

Page7 - What’s Happening in this thread? (Section 2 of 5 of this post) The first part of Oldiesman’s post riled me. I think it's much more selfish to antagonize folks who still love PFAL and the concepts they learned from it. If someone were to believe that their receipt of a blessing was worth the sacrifice of someone else, they would be the epitome of selfishness. And to say that Catcup’s passion to expose the underbelly of twi is done in order to antagonize those who still love PFAL has failed to comprehend what she has written. Altruistic would describe her motivation, not selfishness. To his next statement of comparing VPW and Solomon I admit to being rusty on my knowledge of Solomon, but find it heartening to see OM does accept that VPW did commit evil acts, even if in his opinion they were much less worse than those committed by Solomon. To Oldiesman post #224, all I can say is to repeat his words : Wow, what spin! Compare this clear description here with what he said earlier. Post #213 Post #224 Huge distinction between holding someone in high regard and honoring someone for his works sake. The former is to highly esteem a person in totality; the latter is due respect.To Catcup’s post of #228 - I love your honesty and integrity. You are a excellent example of a Godly woman, and have my upmost respect. Later, in reading post #254, I see your father’s hand in forming your sterling character. I’m proud of him, too! (Just love typing out these notes, so I can refer back to earlier topics!) Post #251 from Oldiesman made me hoot. It sounded so ludicrous! Oldies, you’re right in that most posters here were affiliated with twi and not BG Leonard, but it was God who touched us through them. I laughed when I read you thought Tom Strange was trying to exclude an organization from the Body of Christ. In fact, I’m still laughing about it. I thought the Body of Christ was made up of people God called individually. And I don’t think God relies on Tom to tell Him who to include or exclude. Tom’s a mighty fine fellow, but probably not that fine yet! But we’ll see what God puts him in charge of for eternity. I agree with you (and I know, others do not) that VPW was a member of the Body of Christ. And then burst out laughing again that someone would need CFF to help them decide whether they believed this or not. Personally, I choose to make up my own mind about things, and rarely need confirmation from someone else to do so. And I think that goes for most everyone here. Catcup’s post #295 is an excellent answer to Deciderator’s question of why don’t people move out of the darkness and dwell in the light. Catcup has dealt with the devastation she must have felt after learning what her sister had held in for 22 years, and realizing, that due to her twi mentality, she had “guarded” herself from her sister, and not reached out as she probably would have in any other circumstance in her time of great need. It took great honesty and courage for her to face that truth about herself, and realize she had withheld sisterly love she would have otherwise poured onto her sister. And to admit that if she had learned earlier, she probably would have cut her sister off, completely. And it takes even more courage to come here and openly admit her failing to others so that others can learn from her example. She has gone through the healing process, and now dwells in “the light” to use Deciderator’s phraseology. But she does not hesitate to revisit the darkness when she sees a benefit in it. Bravo, Catcup! Excathedra rejoins us in post #297, and shares more than just a few words, and they speak volumes. In post #416 she succinctly describes the atrocity of vpw’s sexual abuse of those in his charge as a minister of God. Thanks, Exie! too bad dr. wierwille didn't know that From reading some of Excathedra’s posts and talking with her during podcasts, I believe she is one of the ex-twi’ers who have had to “peel many layers off their onion.” She seems to consistently be working through one layer after another, and making progress towards getting rid of the onion all together. What some fail to realize or understand is that each layer stems from the core devastation of being abused at the hands of the religious leader she trusted. That’s the core she is working to dismantle, but it had so many different effects on her life - thus the multitude of layers on her onion. But dealing with each layer starts with that core, and that core must a be addressed in shedding in layer. Jonny’s post #432 evidences he can not understand this component of her healing process.

Page7 - What’s Happening in this thread? (Section 1 of 5 of this post) (Page 1 is post #874 on page 44 of this thread; Page 2 post #891 on page 45; Page 3 post #893 on page 45; Page 4 post #941, Page 48; Page 5 posted in 5 Sections, posts 1216-1217, and 1219-1220 on page 61, and 1221 page 62; Page 6 post 1081 on page 6) As discussed in “my Page 6", page 11 started with Jonny Lingo’s response to Excathedra about m’s story. His post concerned me because he appeared to be reading it from the viewpoint of “an armchair quarterback” watching the re-run of a game. It lacked empathy and compassion. He placed as much responsibility on m as he did on vpw and his accessories to the crime. There is a striking contrast, but consistent similarities, between this post and his previous one to Exie concerning the sexual abuse accounts, and his current perception of vpw in light of the abuse stories. In response to his pov of the accounts, he refers to his previous answer to Rascal to a similar question, and then expounds upon it. Both are quoted below, along with his current perception of vpw. Note the contrast: previously heinous was used to describe accounts; m’s story is sad. It is logical to assume that since he has said twice before such acts were heinous, he sees no need to repeat it here. He acknowledges people were hurt, but I hear no sense of outrage in his reply concerning m’s story. As to his perception of VPW, it conjures up memories of teachings I heard (maybe in CF&S or the Advanced Class, or both) when VPW was recounting the story of David and Uriah. He noted that since the dawn of time, the devil got to people through pressure or pleasures. And the primary pleasure that overtook men was in the sexual arena. How understandable it was that David, looking out his window and catching a view of the beautiful Bathsheba bathing, would get overcome by the flesh and desire her. She was so enticing, and maybe purposefully so. And then he gave examples from the Bible of others who had fallen to similar temptations as David. And didn’t all of us know of men that it had happened to? A chief problem in marriage “in the world” was infidelity by husbands. Even JFK was renowned for his sexual escapades. It was couched in such a way that you might go “Yeah. That’s pretty typical. That must be all men’s Achilles heel. It’s so common, it’s almost to be expected.” So the fact that he, VPW, was overtaken by that very same conduct, could be viewed by some as “it just shows he was as human as the rest of us, fell for the same trick that gets most men”. That part of him was “the bad guy”. That term in my mind minimizes the offense when taken by him, versus being heinous when committed by others. But in truth, there are many men who eschew adultery. It is also one of the few (if not only) reasons given in the Bible that is grounds for divorce. While some men commit adultery, most I know have not. Or they are so discreet, no rumor mill has ever picked up on the fact. The reverence for clergy is a part of our culture. You show respect for the vocation he has chosen, to dedicate his life to the service of God. Much as you show respect to a judge for his office, or a policeman for his public service. This reverence was emphasized even more in twi with the attention focused on protocol. There was a real stigma placed on speaking evil of a man ordained by God. In my mind there is a big difference between due respect, and a forbiddance to note evil in the life of a man of the cloth. But also note that Jonny was asked for his perception versus his opinion of VPW. In both instances he cites his belief that he started out with pure and honest intentions, and later lost his footing. And due respect for the benefits gained from him is justified to be accorded, imo. But Jonny does seem to have a reluctance to use the same strong words in reference to VPW as he does to his “sins”. Perhaps that is and example of how we are the love the sinner, but hate the sin. Don’t know. However, in post #285, Jonny responds to a post from Tom Strange, and states, “ I'm not a VP defender, so I guess I can't help you out there Tom." I take him at his word. Note his posts #422 and #735 As for his ending comment it seems that Jonny is sticking tenaciously to the original topic of the thread “A few things I learned from PFAL, do you still believe them?”. I certainly don’t fault him for that and actually admire his tenacity.In Rascal’s post #203 she states regarding Deciderator I think she misunderstood what he was saying. As discussed previously, to some people there is a huge difference between stating something is true versus stating you believe it to be true or hold it to be true. And from a legal perspective, they are correct. And to say it is not true from a legal pov is not to say it is false, but that is unproven in legal terminology. That leaves room for anyone to come to their own belief concerning it, and holding their belief to be true. Catcup responds to my post. It was excellent and cleared up my confusion over what she was trying to communicate in her earlier post. Thank you, Catcup. I see that she intentionally made an extreme comment in order to Much later, in post # 270, Lifted Up presents the perfect follow-up to my question. My answer to her question would be an emphatic YES! And I believe many here feel exactly that way. Jonny’s post #210 made me smile. I strongly disagree with his characterization of Rascal; as discussed above, she was responding not to “a good thing” being said about PFAL, but to the admonition to stop talking about the past, and move forward. He brings this subject up again in post #422. That statement leads me to believe that Jonny is having a hard time distinguishing between people’s passion to expose the underbelly, with them still being “as angry and injured as they were 3 years ago.” He is talking about Rascal here, and perhaps others. IMO, Rascal has healed tremendously. She does not think of this everyday, it’s not a thought she entertains unless and until it is brought up here again in a thread in response to an admonition to stop talking about the past, and move forward, because there is no value in exposing the darkness. And, Jonny as you are aware of the underbelly, accept the allegations as true, and find them heinous, it is true that you probably do not benefit from it being resurrected from time to time. But please note that Rascal’s motivation for bringing this information to this thread was in response to Deciderator, not you, for at least two reasons. (1) He questioned the benefit of exposing the underbelly, and (2) She did not know if he was aware of the underbelly, and believed it may have a bearing on his evaluation of some of the teachings of VPW if he did, and, therefore brought it to his attention, not yours. Of course you read it as you are following this thread, but that does not mean it was addressed to you. And I think you misread her passion as being in a constant state of anger. No, the passion only arises when the subject is revisited. Rascal does not wake up each morning and go “Man, I’m angry about what vpw did to some of his followers”. And think about it all during the day. And then think about it last thing before she goes to bed at night. No, it never even crosses her mind unless it comes back up here on a thread or is brought to her attention again through some other means of communication. She is not obsessed with this idea. It does not fill in thoughts every waking moment of every day. But every time it is brought to her attention, her passion flares. I don’t take it as an indication that the bitterness regarding this subject is still deep in her soul, eating at her and tormenting her daily, but rather that indignant anger is expressed again whenever the subject is brought up. Remember, forgiving for mankind does not always equate to forgetting. God is capable of that, we are not. If some kid beat your butt on the playground in the 2nd grade and it was traumatic to you, you are likely to never forget it. It resides somewhere in the recesses of your mind. You have probably forgiven that person and moved on. But if you run into them at your High School reunion, that thought may well resurface and when you think about it, you remember and express the anger you had at that time. That does not mean you are dwelling in bitterness, just that you remember it when it is brought to mind. In post #424 pond addresses the issue well: I have to admire Jonny for ending his post with yet another good thing he learned from PFAL and that he still believes. He is as tenacious about speaking his passion as Rascal is about speaking hers. I love the tenacity in both of them. He also reminds me of how many gems there were compared to the rubble we had to sift through to find them. To me, many of the individual verses were the gems and stood alone, outside of the context which VPW was teaching, like scripture build-up, for instance. It took several times of sitting through the class before I was able to see the “big pictures” he was drawing. Most of the errors were in the big pictures, not the verses. And once I finally saw them, I realized why I hadn’t gotten them in the first place, because they were so confusing, I couldn’t comprehend them. Never could understand them, so never did believe them.

Chorus: Big deal So what? Who cares? Ya just got lucky that's all it was Shut up Don't wanta hear another word about Candelight and long stem roses And how you're fallin' head over heels In love, so what? Big deal Clue, name of the song appears twice in the chorus. Clue, I like the version by Leann Rimes. Suda (gets airplay here in TN, guess cause of Nashville)

Hope you have a happy one, Rummy! At our age, the best we can hope for is to crawl out of bed and glow ever-so-dimly! Sleep in and have a Happy Birthday. Rummy, looks like this little lady could use some of your TLC and charm. Looks like she's all talk and no action, too. Why don't you invite her over to share this special birthday cheesecake I made especially for you. Just don't try to break her heart - looks like she can swing a pretty mean frying pan! Happy, Happy to You! Suda

First verse of lyrics I posted above: Well he used to be mine Not so very long ago I was crazy to ever let him get away But girl you should know better Then to go braggin' in my face So forgive me for what I'm 'bout to say

Would opt for white gold over sterling silver. You have to clean sterling too often, and the cleansing paste or liquid gets all over the jewel, and then it has to be cleaned or it loses it's shine. Also think sterling prongs would wear out too easily, and the stone could be lost. Sterling is much softer than white gold. No experience with buying jewelry online, so no input there. Suda

In answer to Sunesis's question: I have had my hand guided towards such a discovery on numerous occasions. Sometimes my hand "hit the target" and then my hand hit his face. But when I was aware of the intended target, I avoided said target, and pushed him away. All such attempts were intentional, none were "without thinking". Lots of thinking was going on in their minds. Now inside marriage, such guidings are acceptable and wecolmed when in the privacy of our home or in another private setting. Never in public! And my husband is gentleman enough to know that. And Sudo, honey, don't throw that "Gift Ideas for Suda" list away. The only box I want your "special endowment" in is my "box". It's one of my favorite gifts on holidays (or any day). But I like the presents I can open in front of everyone, also. So keep giving them, sweetie! Suda

Don't wanta hear another word about Candelight and long stem roses And how you're fallin' head over heels Suda

Yes, Raf is correct. Good Disney movie. Suda

4 pictures, 2 on 2nd line. Suda

You're all I Need to Get By Diana Ross Suda

I was living and working in Eau Claire, Wisconsin when I heard the news. Was not much of an Elvis fan then, but have come to appreciate his music more since moving to Memphis. Especially love his Gospel music. Remember seeing him as a child and thinking he looked like a "greaser" with that slicked back hair. And never appreciated his flamboyant costumes. But now love lots of his music and have several CD's I enjoy listening to. And when you look at him in his early days, he was a nice looking fellow. Was sad he had died, as I am when I hear of anyone's passing, but was not earth shattering to me. I flew to Ohio and joined my then-boyfriend at the ROA for the weekend. My first ROA and pre-PFAL. Could not understand all the protesters about "Jesus Christ is Not God". Raised in the Presbyterian Church, I thought I believed in the Trinity - The Father, The Son, and The Holy Ghost - but had never seen them as one in the same, but more like a Board of Directors running the show up there in the heavenlies. Always thought they were distinct. My main memory from that ROA was sitting in the Big Top surrounded by multitudes of young people, all who loved God to the utmost, and everyone singing "Family of God". It brought tears to my eyes. I had always wondered how you knew if you were in God's Family. From all I had been taught, you did your best to live a Christian life, and you'd find out on Judgement Day. That always seemed so crazy to me. And what a cruel joke it you did your best and ended up burning in hell anyway. That's why speaking in tongues really hit my heart in PFAL - the token of our inheritance - I was overjoyed to know I was born-again and heaven bound. That was something I had longed to know since a wee child. And, yep, I still SIT bunches. And believe it is very real. Suda

Night and a reed show? The Donna Reid Show? Suda (still guessing with limited TV Title vocabulary)

Well, I'll be! Sudo a lesbian. That sure explains some things. Suda (NOT a lesbian and proud of it!)

T- Bone, I agree with you completely that exposing the underbelly of vpw is very beneficial. Your synopsis of vpw is excellent, I find no disagreement with it. Have enjoyed all your posts in this thread. I learn a lot from you. Thank you. Suda

Groucho, You, Catcup, and I all agree that 100% of the responsibility for the abuse lies in the hands of the abusers, and not at the feet of all twi'ers. She explained this in her post #209 in response to my questions. She used the extreme statement as a means of challenging the thought processes of those who thought any good they received was worth the evil underbelly. It is an exageration for emphasis, not to be taken as "fact". I have seen many post about this over the past 10 years on WD and GSC. Several posters believe the good accomplished by VPW outweighed the evil he and his organization wrought, they themselves got a lot out of their involvement, their lives were changed in a positive way, and if a few people got hurt along the way, then, well, that's life. Too bad. All the rest must surely be people exaggerating. It is THAT attitude I detest, and it is that attitude I challenge, because it is that attitude that in its very nature, suggests that the sacrifice of a few virgins was worth what they got out of it. Those who have been around a while and are reading this surely recall right now the names of more than a few posters over the years who have expressed this sentiment. I appreciated her explaining her reasoning and purpose to me, so that I could understand where she was coming from and what she wanted this illustration to accomplish. Suda

Yes, I know, GSG. Just a wild guess. Suda

Ted Knight Anna Kournikova reeds Margaret Cho Night in Rio? Hmmmm . . . Suda

T Bone, You and I interpreted Deciderator's post differently. I thought he was drawing a contrast between his heroes and vpw/lcm/et. al. as noted below from the same post you quoted. I may have misunderstood his meaning, though. Guess he can clarify if he wishes. Suda