GrouchoMarxJr

BikerBabe...Better be careful about the offer with the cuffs and horsewhip...I suspect that some of these wierwille apologists might actually enjoy this type of treatment...afterall, look at the degradation and humiliation that they subject themselves to by worshipping the cornfield preacher. It seems apparent to me that Vic, besides other things, was a serial abuser. Seeking young, naive girls to either seduce or drug...There's no defense of his actions and those who try, are sad little people.

In response to jonny's post... Ask yourself this question: Who were the people who took pfal and became committed to twi? I believe that those folks were searching for answers...people whose hearts were inclined towards God and desired to do the right thing. Thousands upon thousands of us. Most of us were kind and decent people before we joined. It's true that many of the "recruits" became corrupt as they climbed the waytree but most of the rank and file remained kind and decent. Speaking only for myself, I was raised in a Christian home and learned about the love of God from my mother. I had a biblical foundation of truth laid in my life before I ever heard of twi. It's true that I learned a lot of bible from twi (some was accurate some was not)...but I do not consider my life to be the fruit of Veepee Wierwille's ministry. Twi was a stepping stone along the journey of life. I doubt that my life would be all that different today had I never heard of twi. So... When we look at twi in hindsight, you can look at the lives of thousands of people who were really great people...people who loved God and treated others with respect and kindness. I suppose you could look at any Christian ministry and see similar types of people as well. The question is whether all the great folks in twi were great because of Veepee's ministry...or...because they were great folks that just happened to sit through pfal. Even as I don't blame Wierwille for my own personal sins, I also don't give him credit for the good qualities about my life either. Did Wierwille's ministry impact my life? Yes, it cheated me out of 13 years of my life when I could have been finishing college and building a secular career...it filled my head with some very wrong and destructive doctrines...it alienated me from my family and friends...and in the final analysis, they rewarded my faithfulness with callous indifference. What Wierwille had to offer, I could have found in other places. The years that I gave to twi only served to bolster their bank account and their egos. The pfal class is discredited not because of the fruit it produced but because it was loaded with error.

Twi's renaming of Christmas was yet another example of how they felt compelled to redefine accepted terms to fit into the mold of their cult reality. Afterall, the terms of the world weren't good enough for "gawd's household"...Had Martindale been given enough time, he probably would have made us all change our names to fit into his convoluted perspective: "You say you're name is Simon Bell?"..."sorry but Simon was the name of a sorcerer and Bell rhymes with hell...so you're new name will be Craig HoHo (Craig, after the great prophet and HoHo after our esteemed household holiday")... ..."Ladies and gentlemen, leading songs tonight on the main stage will be our beloved brother Craig HoHo" ...Far fetched? I think not.

As far as the original question posed to start this thread... ...Yes, I was told that we were on the verge of "losing our country" back in 1976...All the previously stated conspiracy talk (Gary Allen stuff)...I also heard the same stuff. Supposedly twi came to the rescue and pulled the fat out of the fire at the last moment...same thing happened in 1980. (That's what MAL packs were all about...I was 10th corps) During the time frame from 1975-77, many twiers attended John Birch Society meetings...I believe that Wierwille and Martindale both got much of their conspiracy info from them. Perhaps the folks with the best insight in to that time frame would be the 6th corps.

Twi never imagined in their worst nightmare, that the internet would do them in...They thought, as they ran people off one at a time, they would be done with them. It never occurred to them that we would all "reorganize" (so to speak) under the anti cult flag. Ain't communication a grand thing? B) By the time twi found out about Waydale, it was too late. I mean, what could they do? They did the only thing they knew to do...they announced the internet as being evil and told people to stay away from it! ...even as the Amish avoid the use of electricity, twi was going to "move on" without the use of the internet....It would appear that they have been less than successful with this tactic :blink: It appears to me that the information on Waydale and now on the Grease Spot has been seen by more people than twi has members (by many fold)...In the long run, twi will be remembered (if at all), by the things said about them here and at Waydale...and it seems only right to me, that we, the former members, should be the ones to call bull&$*# on these losers. Much credit should be given to Paul and Fern

"Does it seem like 20 years?" No... "...And I'll stand on his grave til' I'm sure that he's dead".....Bob Dylan

Like tonto, I was a wow in 1976 and also went to the American Awakes show when it came to our town... I thought it was the best overall production that twi ever did...I remember getting a "lift" from that show that carried me through some tough times during my wow year. ...Socks...You should be proud. :)

...Now back to the "ratting out" thing. I personally saw the results of so many people who were ratted out, I cannot begin to catalog all the incidents... I've seen people break down crying over the chewing out they received as a result of being ratted out. It was encouraged, if you held out, you were "spiritually out to lunch"...They kept tabs on people and used fear to motivate the whole system. Makes me think of the movie "Scent of a woman"...When Al Pacino yells out "But at least he's not a snitch". One of the major issues for me is when king okie started demanding that twig coordinators report on a regular basis as to who was "faithful" and who was not. To me this was unacceptable...anyone in your fellowship that was not "towing the line"...you had to rat out on a regular basis! There were other issues as well, but this "ratting out thing" was definitely instrumental in my leaving twi.

jonny IS a class act. B)

Our name is Greasespot for we are many.

Bottom line was that twi was nothing more than another version of Amway with bible verses thrown in... Let's give the devil his due...Wierwille was a slick salesman. He not only had the personality to draw people in but he also set up a pretty snazzy recruitment organization... First it started with pfal, then the roa, then go out wow and finally, you're ready to go into the corps... EVERYTHING that twi did was about shaking people down for their money...and like an animal that eats it's own young, twi not only recruited people into their cult but also turned them into a free workforce. Exploitation was their forte and bait and switch was their tactic. Wierwille was a grifter who should have been selling cars instead of lying in God's name...and to think that he twisted the scriptures to equate his own "ministry" with the apostle Paul's was one of his crowning achievments. Today, when I look at the ministry of Paul (as depicted in the book of Acts), I am astounded at how totally different a true Christian ministry operates when compared to the pyramid scheme that Vic and his band of snake oil salesmen used to pile up the money. ...and the funny part is how Martindale dismantled the entire thing! He eliminated the pfal class, the roa, and the wow program...INCREDIBLE!!! Everything that Wierwille built, Martindale tore down...and today, there's nothing left but a fruity lesbian trying to protect what remains of their corporate profits made during their salad days... ...In hindsight, I think that I made a terrible mistake by going to that first roa instead of the Grateful Dead concert that I had been talked out of.

When I first saw Martindale prancing on stage in his leotards, I realized that he could have soiled his trousers and a lot of folks would have thought is was the tenth manifestation.

Do I really think that a lesbian is running twi? No question about it....

Perhaps in our zeal to expose the evils of twi, we often neglect the fact that there were MANY really fine people in the waycorps...afterall many of US were waycorps leaders So many young people gave up promising careers and other secular endeavors to join a Christian ministry and to do the right thing for God...this in itself was noble and godly. I suppose that in the course of climbing the corporate way tree, many became jaded and corrupted from their original intentions... ...Maybe the greatest example of how many good people were in the waycorps can be seen most clearly by the fact that most of them departed from twi.

Yeah...I think that the term "fog years" was invented to describe the overall condition of twi leadership at the time. The wrong doctrines, the ego trips, the dissention, the wrong decisions, etc, etc...Of course there was a lack of "godliness"...there was a lack of "godliness" in twi from the time Veepee saw the snow on the gas pumps until this present moment... ...The problems during the "fog years" was so obvious to everyone that they had to come up with this term in order to assign blame and rationalize themselves out of their situation...of course they never did. Looking back, the "fog years" were probably the most enlightening years for many of us in twi...the veil was indeed lifted and a large number of wayfers (including myself) had the "eyes of their understanding" opened. We saw the hypocracy, the evil, the uncaring attitudes, the power plays...and as twi leadership became more and more confused, they assumed that WE were also confused...Twi's leadership couldn't fathom the reality that their followers were snapping out of waybrain and saw them for what they really were.

I leave this thread for a few days and suddenly Mike is flapping his gums about "mastering pfal" again... ...pfal (THE WRITTEN FORM) is nothing more than a scattered collection of other people's writings that Wierwille tried to pass off as his own. There is very little of value contained in this collection of plaguarized writings and in fact contains numerous HARMFUL doctrines... ...Mike...get a life

Deserve a second chance to be president of twi? Not hardly...I can see forgiving a person for their misdeeds but put him in charge again? ...I'd give him him a pooper scooper and put him in charge of cleaning streets.

...And people wonder why I am so cynical and harsh towards towards twi ?... ...It's one thing to be a con artist and scam people...but it falls into another "category" when you do it in God's name.

HCW...Great post...very informative. Many of us here recall those events vividly but there are many others here who were not around in those days who will find your post extremely enlightening. I recall when the infamous "clergy meeting" happened...folks all over the country were rife with questions, Many clergy went to that meeting with an attitude of "I will get to the bottom of this and report the facts to you when I return"...some did and some wimped out...glossing things over with cliches and blanket statements... The clergy in my area wimped out...when they returned from that meeting, they were "white as sheets" and simply told us to "stay the course", etc, etc...I decided to go visit a dear friend of mine...a guy from my home town that I had grown up with, that I had got into the ministry, a guy that I lived with for a number of years, one of my best friends in the whole world and whom I trusted totally...he was also an ordained clergy (limb leader at the time) and was at that meeting...WELL...He told me things that made the hair on my neck stand up...he spilled his guts and told me EVERYTHING he knew...He was one of only 3 clergy who got up and walked out of that meeting. After I returned to my area, I reported to the clergy and told him what I knew and started questioning him...three days later, the entire area was told to "have no contact with me"...and the believers that I was living with ( a married couple) were told to boot me out!...Much to their credit, they told me I could stay with them as long as I wanted... In the final analysis, I felt that the choices were clear...either stand with twi or stand on the word...it was not possible to do both....and I was very disapointed in a LOT of twi leadership that chose to stand with twi, when it was clear that twi was "out to lunch"... A side note...My clergy friend that I had visited had received numerous threatening phone calls from HA...I was present during one of them...My friend put the phone call on "speaker" and I heard the entire conversation...I couldn't believe my ears! As far as the "conflict" between Geer and LCM and the rest of the top dogs who were involved...I thought that they were ALL wrong...Geer's POP paper was iconoclastic and inflamatory ( if it was to be believed at all)...At the time I felt that if Geer was the guy who they were turning to, that the problems were even worse than most imagined... Wierwiile's personality and charisma had held everyone together for years...after his death, the fruit of all the wrong twi doctrine and the ego trips came crashing down on twi like a sledge hammer. The details of this time period are enlightening but looking back, the end result was predictable.

The question of why LCM hasn't started his own "offshoot" remains...possible answers are: 1-He was so discredited, he is afraid to crawl out of the shadows in which he hides. 2-He has simply lost interest in "Christian ministry" and is enthralled by being a personal trainer at Balleys 3-He never really left twi and is still pulling the strings from behind his curtain 4-He is too lazy to begin from scratch and is awaiting his opprotunity to return to twi and all their assets If he DOES return to twi...many Grease spotters will be extending their thoughts, as well as their middle finger towards him.

Sorry to hear about the illness of Geer's wife...but I'll stand by my opinion of him... ...Wierwille liked him a lot because of his unquestioning loyalty to Veepee...Geer was one of the few people to be ordained before he went into the corps. I think that after Mr Wierwiile died, Geer decided to lob a hand grenade into the organization...and yes, he was instrumental in a LOT of folks walking away from twi... ...I could never understand why twi's BOT and other top leaders allowed the guy to do what he did at the famous "clergy meeting" and how they went along with "POP"...I mean, others who disagreed (Ralph D, JAL, and many others) were shown the door when they spoke up...but for some reason Geer was treated with awe and reverence...of all people to listen to...scheeesch! My experiences with Geer were unpleasant to say the least...I think that Geer's attitude and personality would have fit in nicely with the "leadership" that Adolph Hitler surrounded himself with...the guy was ruthless.

My twi experiences began in western NY (near Buffalo) in 1975... ...Twi had sent six "in state ambassadors" to my home town for several months and I was the first and only person they got to take pfal...After they all left, I recruited several of my friends to take the class and we began a twig. There was no "oversight" and we regularly smoked dope and drank beer during twigs. After about a year, our fellowship had grown to about 20 people...it was loose and unstructured...everybody had fun. In 1976 I went out wow to Chicago and was introduced to some corps and began to see the legalism and heavy handed approach to dealing with people...I also began to see the hierarchy in action... While I was out wow, twi had sent some corps into my area to coordinate the "new work" that had begun in my home town...Upon my return, I discovered that EVERY person had quit because of their experiences with the corps that had been sent there...there was NOBODY left!... It was during my wow year that I learned from some 6th corps folks of the twi "doctrine" concerning sex...it was ok if you could "handle it"...THAT was good news for all the wows...We could only have 2 drinks but by gawd we could "bump uglies"! (I and my wow brother had found a bar that served 32 ounce drafts, so our 2 drink limit amounted to a half a gallon of beer each)...hic ;) The twi "leaders that I was first exposed to were Johnny T, Randy A, and Duke C. My observation is that when twigs were self governing and autonomous, they thrived...when they were controlled by the heirarchy, they were stiffled and stagnant...

themex...From what I've heard, Chris Geer "runs his own ministry" from behind a curtain. By this, I mean that he doesn't travel around as a "front man"...he knows that his personality is akin to a rattlesnake so he prefers to stay hidden in the background "selling franchises" of his own version of pfal (Walking in God's Power)... Mr Geer is one of the most cold hearted, vicious, people I have ever had the displeasure of knowing. During Wierwille's hayday, Geer was known as the bus driving pimp who carried a gun...Just visualizing his face makes my skin crawl.

I suspect that there are a handful of "waycorps" that are still loyal to king okie. You know...the ones whose brains have turned into apple sauce. I imagine a few of these mindless monkeys still see themselves as a kind of "remnant", tending to their mog...but don't worry...these people are so hypnotized by waybrain that they are nothing more than meat puppets who live in a world of total delusion and are probably as harmless as a fly whose wings have been pulled off.

"is it possible to fix the Way-Corps?" To "fix" something, an assumption must be made that it was, at one time, NOT BROKEN. I assert that the waycorps was an ill advised, half baked, unbiblical idea to begin with. It was screwed up from the get go and only got worse. The waycorps was an extension of Mr Wierwille's ego...Mr Wierwille took the place of the absent Christ and the waycorps took the place of the body of Christ (or at least the "household" of that body)...the structure of the waycorps and how it operated was unbiblical and only served to bolster egos and put people into bondage. Christ was not allowed to be Lord, Individual revelation, inspiration and decisions were suffocated with an ungodly hierarchy, and corporate policies. George Aars remark about the Hitler Youth program was definitely appropriate. Fix the way corps?... As Al Pacino once said..."I'd take a flamethrower to the place..."