GrouchoMarxJr

...The cliches were a good example of parroting. Getting rid of "wayspeak" from my vocabulary was a big step in cult recovery. "God bless, you're the best", "renew your mind", "I'll speak in tongues for the situation", "use it or lose it", "God won't spit in your direction...", etc etc etc. Rational thought was replaced with "waybrain". Instead of thinking logically and giving an appropriate response, people would simply put their brains on auto pilot and spew out cliches. This parroting thing got so bad that some guys even tried to emulate the personality styles, the hair styles, the clothing styles, and the teaching styles of their favorite leader. It became pathetic. I suppose that when substance is lacking, style takes on a greater importance.

The letter by John R is typical of the actions that MANY took during their days of concern, before they left twi....and Rozilla'z response was also typical of how twi handled honest questions by sincere people. It would seem to me that after 20 years of faithful service, he deserved some honest answers instead of the eyewash and veiled threats that he received.

When I was tc in the 70's, our twig was much like Eagle describes... People had fun and we all enjoyed each other's company. Nobody was afraid of being yelled at...it was relaxing and at times inspirational... I still have a hard time understanding why twi began to micromanage everything. It became mechanical and rigid. It became religion. Near the end of my time in twi, the main way to get people to come to twig was to motivate them by guilt and fear... What started out as inspirational get togethers evolved into cult ceremonies...They should have known better. Was control THAT important to them?...apparently so.

Perhaps the two drink limit doctrine would apply to this situation? ...or perhaps in Rhino's case, the two "bump" limit. But...going back to the topic, Yes, there were some very silly and stupid things that people got reproved for: The local BC called me and asked me to drive him all over town (his car was in the shop)...I reluctantly agreed...I drove him about 50 miles all over town and back with no offer from him to give me any gas money. As we were driving, he heard a "noise" in my brakes ( I heard nothing)...He then proceeded to reem me out for endangering his life because of how important he was to God's master plan... I musta been outta my mind....

I'm sure that the dwindling numbers must be a constant source of embarrassment for twi. They probably have a "canned response" to explain why the numbers are so small and why it is no big deal...what else CAN they say? The fact remains that they are dying on the vine because of the rotten seeds they have sown. If it wasn't for all the abs that they collected during the 70's and 80's, they couldn't possibly afford to keep the boat afloat... Actually, the money that they are bringing in now is hardly worth their effort...the REAL reason why twi continues on is because they HAVE to, in order to keep the corporate structure functioning within the legal framework that allows them access to their assets (previously referred to as the abs collected during the 70's and 80's)...As long as they meet the criteria for their tax exempt, religious organization...the assets remain theirs to enjoy. They are not legally permitted to dissolve twi and split the loot...they have to continue with their facade.

anal bleaching?... ...No doubt, to impress the on lookers at the next anal inspection.

Hooner...Belle gives you some very excellant advice. ...But to answer your question...yes, I understand how you feel because I was there myself. ...and this too will pass. There are many "junctures" we cross while recovering from "cult madness"... I didn't seek professional help when I left twi but many do...the important thing to know is that you WILL emerge out of the end of the tunnel and things will be much more clear and you will be much more at peace.

Mountains are evil because they divide people? Hmmm...I suppose oceans, lakes, rivers, streams, chasms, thick forsets, briar patches and deserts are evil too...they also are capable of dividing people. and if you really think about it...political parties, religious denominations, rival highschool football teams, fences, moats, brickwalls, enclosed houses and different brands of beer divide people also. such evil all around us... ...and we can thank the great spiritual giant, king okie for leading us in the right direction.

Putting Craig Martindale in charge of the research department is like putting Moe Howard in charge of the Homeland Security department.

I'll never forget the first time the local LC came to our twig out in a remote area...I was the twig leader because I had been in twi the longest (2 months) The twig consisted of 3 hippies, a biker and a blind guy... Our preparation of the "fellowship room" consisted of clearing out the empty beer cans, hiding the marajuana, and opening the windows to get the smell of dirty socks out of the room... When the LC arrived, the first thing he saw was the poster of Jerry Garcia hanging in the living room. I'll never forget the look on his face when everyone lit up a smoke when he started teaching (our custom)... When the fellowship ended, we asked him if he'd like to have a beer and he turned pale... The guy didn't even know where to begin when it came to "reproving me"... Of course several years later, I was stringing chairs at Emporia with the other mindless chimps... :blink: ...Almost forgot...We had found a "new person" to bring to twig that night...the lady who lived in the apartment next door (very troubled lady)...all through the teaching, she kept saying over and over (quite loud)..."praise jezuz, praise jezus" and then she started sobbing...quite the night, that was.

That sounds about right Eagle... ...If I'm not mistaken, didn't Veepee "prophesy" that one of his grandchildren would some day become president of twi?...twi4? hee hee... Actually the fate and duration of twi's existance will be exactly as long as the money holds out.

Phil Lesh!...You got my attention. Hate to sound like an old hippie, but Jerry Garcia's guitar work still amazes me. The last live performance that REALLY impressed me was a few years ago...saw Ray Davies (singer for the Kinks) and another guy (can't remember his name) doing a two man show...a lot of acoustic stuff...always loved his unique voice. The BLUES! Yes indeedy...the time I spent in radio as a program director for a public radio station introduced me to a LOT of different kinds of music...love the blues! So many great performers.

Orbot...Welcome, you're among friends.

dmiller...Thanks for posting JAL's letter. I had read it years ago but perhaps many here had never seen it before. One thing that stands out in my memory of those times was the fact that certain areas knew a lot of what was going on and others areas knew little or nothing...This, of course, depended on who the leaders were in each respective area (state, region, etc.) I was in a state that knew little or nothing...we were getting the "mushroom" treatment (keep them in the dark and feed them with &$*#)...so...I decided to go and visit a dear friend of mine who happened to be the LC in another state (who had already quit twi)...He told me a LOT of what was happening...when I returned to my area and confronted my BC (clergy)...he began the process of "marking and avoiding" me... It was a confusing and hurtful time for many people...the sins of twi leadership finally caught up with them and decimated the ministry. Thousands walked away. One more thing...I recall several clergy guys who stated to the local believers that they were waiting to hear what Ralph had to say before they made up their minds...shortly after that, we were informed by hdqrts that Ralph was now "possessed" and not to listen to him...these same clergy guys who a week earlier were waiting to hear what Ralph had to say, were now saying not to listen to him! My opinion of these clergy guys was that they were gutless wonders and I started making my exit plans.

I stand corrected. I should have said an ego the size of Oklahoma... ...or maybe I should have said...a forehead the size of Oklahoma... ...

When I disassociated myself from twi partially because of doctrinal differences, the local folks from my branch were told not to have any contact with me...and they didn't. I agree with Raf...they were not really friends to begin with...I never looked back. Today, the people in my life have never even heard of twi...with the exception of my lady... We like it that way.

"Bally's can have him." I suppose one of the big attractions for me personally, when I first got involved with twi (1975), was the fact that Wierwille had an open door policy..."There's no strangers at the Way"...People came and went as they pleased. My first roa was more like a rock concert...You didn't have to sign any loyalty oaths, in fact one of Wierwille's favorite sayings was that "the Way has no members, that way nobody can be kicked out"...followed by a hearty laugh. project 12 years into the future... Vic the grifter is dead and king okie has been on his throne for about two years. Most of the young people who were at my first roa, are now corps grads...everything is strict...legalism became the order of the day. The entire complexion of twi had changed... ...And then the era of pop and the Scheinheit controversy, and the mass firings began...it seemed CLEAR to me that Martindale had gone out of his frickin' mind and was leading twi down the tubes...this was 1987 When Raf says that anyone who stayed after 1989 got fooled, he's making an understatement. I don't want to insult anyone who DID stay after 1989 (everyone's situation was different)...but if I were to put it in "wayspeak"...A "spirit of delusion" had swept into the waytree, from the top down...and was pruning it like Edward Scissorhands. Many folks felt betrayed, hurt and confused...I don't blame people who splintered off into groups, following whoever...as for myself, I went my own way alone...I'd had enough. ...And my earliest memories of Martindale in 1975 was that he was a raving maniac then with an ego the size of Texas.

oldies...As it turned out, the reasons that you got involved ended up being a big waste of time and money also.

"don't give me any of that standing with God crap"... ...Leave it to oldies to defend a statement like that. oldies goes on to say "Fact is, we were all, all of us, standing with some man..." Oh really now? Perhaps you should speak for yourself. In my involvement with twi, my allegience was always to God...not to ANY man. I was always mindful of the fact that I would disassociate myself with ANY man, woman, or ministry that walked away from God. To pledge blind allegience to a man (as Martindale demanded), was not only unbiblical but also damned stupid. Therein lies the difference between a genuine Christian minister and an ego filled counterfeit. The failure to understand this very basic concept demonstrates the lack of a personal relationship with God and a personal committment to the truth. Sorry oldies, you struck out again. PS...I NEVER received a paycheck from twi...I helped supply their paycheck.

Mark...Sure, I understand what you're saying...Considering the amount of time, effort, finances and heart that most of us poured into this thing, it's good to unravel the facts for the sake of understanding. Martindale's mandate for the loyalty letter was most revealing...hundreds upon hundreds of folks saw the handwriting on the wall and acted accordingly. The further off the deep end that he went, the more obvious it became that it was time to leave... ...One of the positive results of being so involved with the insanity of twi, was that so many good folks finally started thinking for themselves...started making some sound decisions and woke up from their cult slumber. Amen and Amen

The problem with trying to sort all of this stuff out and make sense of it, is that these people were working from a perspective that is fatally flawed from the get go... ...In order to accept anything that Geer had to say, one must start off with the premise that Wierwille WAS this spiritual giant with great insight and that the "word" that he taught was the real deal... ...It's sort of like visiting a mental institution and trying to make sense out of what the guy (who thinks he is Napoleon) is saying to you. If you accept the premise that he actually IS Napoleon, then you might follow along and agree with him...but if you see him for the crackpot that he is...it makes no sense and he becomes pitiful. The entire framework of twi thinking was based on being part of their fantasy world. It was a world that was built on the foundations of ego and fueled by self interest and lust. In other words, if you believed the fable of the "snow on the gas pumps", they could twist and shape your mind to conform to their insanity....their pretend world that placed THEM at the center of importance. Why not read a Green Lantern comic book and then spend the rest of your life trying to find the elusive power ring?

...I recall that cryptic message in the middle of the night. I remember thinking at the time that Veepee was only 68 or 69...what happened to the great mog's believing? A time of sadness and confusion. and I also attended that first roa after Veepee's death. rascal got it right...it was one depressing affair. I left after day two...it was the last time I was ever there... ...Of course, the death of grifter Vic was the beginning of the "fog years". Everything unraveled...I left twi in 1987. When the time came to leave, I knew it was the right thing to do...no question about it. For many of us, when Wierwille died, it was almost like a bubble bursting...an awakening...we began to see what had really been going on. For me, "the fog years" were really just the opposite of that...the fog had lifted and what I saw was damn ugly.

...And who could ever forget... "works for saint and sinner alike"...How grifter Vic illustrated this so called "law of believing" with his tale of healing the man's hand in India who didn't believe in Jesus. With Wierwille's teachings, God was no longer needed to bring things to pass...we do it ourselves with our "believing". Essentially, Veepee taught that there was some mysterious power within the human mind that could effect things externally...some folks call that witchcraft. Non biblical?...For a guy who screamed "it's the word, the word and nothing but the word", the nazi cornfield preacher certainly promoted some very non biblical concepts... ...Concepts that served his purposes...

A thread entitled "Sodomy"...started by satori...Who could resist checking it out. Some heartfelt thoughts towards the children who are sexually abused...how truly monstrous! Thanks to excie for her admonitions towards the young... ...As far as consenting adults go...I pass no judgement on the sexual proclivities of others. Each of us is responsible for own lives and our own choices... ...sprinkling the ashes in the chile?...gotta wipe the coffee off of my screen. Tying this whole thing together, I've often suspected that Martindale was/is a sodomite. At his advanced age,If I knew his address, I would send him some "depends".

Father in the word?...How about son of a bi*ch instead? The whole concept is erroneous and is derived from twisting scriptures...Wierwille modeled his "ministry" after the example of Moses...he needed something in the new testament to justify his egotistical position....(drum roll please)... ..."Father in the word"! That's the ticket...Wierwille was consumed by his own image...everything was about him. He was selfish, insecure, mean, dishonest, and hurtful. He put himself up on a pedestal. You want to keep bowing down to his ego?...Not me. He's not my "father in the word"...He's a grifter that conned me for awhile. My Christian faith is based upon the Rock...Christ.