GrouchoMarxJr

My position on twi's "debt doctrine" is slightly different from what others may think about it...I firmly believe that whether or not a person is in debt is NONE OF TWI's BUSINESS!!! This is a personal thing and no church has the right to delve into this area of a person's life. I left twi in 1987...had this doctrine been in force when I first got involved in 1975...well, I never would have got involved. The only time a twi "clergyman" ever asked me about my personal finances, (he asked me how much I made, as he wanted to calculate my tithe for me)...I squinted my eyes at him and told him it was none of his damn business..nobody ever asked me again. Anyone who opens their personal financial status to a church (upon demand), is a gutless wonder to begin with...It's bad enough that the IRS sticks their nose into it.

Can't you just see it?...This drunken, womanizing "preacher" sitting there copying word for word...from people he was impressed with...passing it off as his own...and then strutting around like a peacock, the "great man of gawd"... ...and how much money did I give to this grifter? <_<

In my humble opinion, lcm is probably a closet homosexual. Usually, the people who are screaming the loudest against "homos", are the ones who are a little light in the loafers.

..."You gotta be in alignment and harmony" (with who?...you?) ..."You're corps material" ( the ultimate set up) ..."You need to go wow" ( like hell I do!) ..."Take your foot off the hose" ( and maybe put it on your neck?) ..."get your needs and wants parallel" ( huh?) ..."You can't outgive God" (means, gimme more money) ..."just sign the green card" (just bite my crank, matey) ..."that's old wine skins" (lcm's delusions of grandeur) ..."we're athletes of the spirit" ( jock straps in heaven?) ..."just take the class, it will answer all your questions" (kiss my aura Dora)

It was always about him...Veepee always had center stage...it was his nature, his psyche, his life. Interesting posts...and who could ever forget in pfal when Wierwille talks about Simon the sorcerer? "That I may become the great power of God"...this is who wierwille was. He was an insecure egomaniac. It wasn't good enough for him to be a successful preacher..no no...he had to be the great apostle who knew the "werd of gawd" better than ANYBODY since the 1st century! The farkin' MOG! Even as convicts learn lessons from their time in prison, we too have learned some lessons from our time in a cult...My motto is "don't sh it me, I got a turd in every pocket!

...And I remember right well how king okie would condescend, with that look of contempt in his eyes, screaming and blathering on about "commitment"...about "walking circumspectly"...about "being spiritually aware"... ...And this guy screwed the whole thing up himself, singlehandedly! When I think back on those "special times" with king okie...I now think of him as arrogant, aloof, cold hearted, meanspirited, unprincipled, immoral, disgusting and last but not least, stupid. At one time, twi had more than their share of very talented people...as an organization, it could have thrived...but thanks to loy the bufoon, it disintigrated like styrofoam in a bonfire...and let us not forget who handpicked the moron from Oklahoma...the same guy who saw snow on the gas pumps...gettin' the picture yet? Twi was a money making scam from the get go...but the flim flam man died and left Moe Howard in charge...today we are witnessing the complete humiliation of this sad little cornfield cult...Rozilla!

I would say that during the late 80's...87, 88, 89...twi lost 75-80% of it followers. The result of pop and the following events, torn twi to shreads... and yes, lcm was dumber than a bag of hammers. He not only ran off the top leadership,but he single handedly dismantled the 3 major vehicles of twi's growth...the roa, the wow program and pfal... I belive that his cheese slipped off the cracker...he became delusional and paranoid...his lust for self recognition nd power and control, led him to become quite insane (IMHO).

The implication was always "if you're not corps, then you're a schmuck"... I recall lcm chastising people, telling them that if they couldn't cut the mustard in the corps program, then they should just go home and "go to twig"...as if he was leveling the supreme insult at them... ...This attitude was contagious. It fueled the arrogance of corps people. To your face, they would be nice (sometimes)...but behind your back, they thought of you as some sort of spiritual cripple, unable to find your foot with both hands. The waytree was a place where you looked down on anyone perched below you in the hierarchy.

What am I bid for the old violin as he held it up with the bow I'll give you a buck if you throw in the eye, he said with a voice deep and low one dollar once, one dollar twice, going and almost gone... why so cheap said the thoughtless crowd they cried, we just don't understand quick came the reply, from the back of the room it was the touch of a basta*ds hand sorry...

...but which one of them is the "woman"?...I have a hard time picturing either of them in that role. :blink:

During my twi years, the concept of "unworthiness" versus "completely completly complete" was rammed down my throat...just "claim your sonship rights" was what I was told...like walking into a convienient store and cashing in a winning lotto ticket. It was a state of mind...simply concentrate hard enough (stay your mind), and viola!...Suddenly you could walk on water and cast out demons...but of course, if you didn't cash in your spiritual lotto ticket, you were just a scum bag loser... ...I believe that twi over emphasized the "free ride" concept for several reasons: 1- As Garth said, it gave twi a certain element of control over people...whenever they wanted to put you in your place, they simply reminded you that you born a lowlife until THEY showed you how to scratch off the winning ticket. 2-It gave them a license to sin and still be okey dokey (that way, Vic could get drunk every day and take girls into the back of the motorcoach and STILL be the great mog) 3-self realization and accomplishment didn't exist...you had to wear the twi decoder ring or else it didn't really count....which translates into "give us your money". Life is not that black and white...one moment you're "in fellowship", the next moment you're "out of fellowship"...nothing in between. Just say the magic words and all is well. No...we are all fragile, have many weaknesses and eventually will die. Our lives are made up of a multitude of moral decisions, mistakes and events that are quite out of our control...thoughts that are layered and complex...self realization and personal accomplishments come through hard work and painful experiences...and just when you think things are going well, some doctor gives you "the bad news" or somebody robs your house or your dog gets run over...life is tough and there's no free lotto ticket. Where does God fit into all of this?...We struggle to maintain our faith, when things go our way, we thank God...when things go bad, we wonder if there IS a God...We are born with genetic predispositions, a skin covered skeleton stuffed with bodily organs that deteriorate with time, living in a world where evil runs rampant and very few people give a rat's foot whether you live or die. The challenge of life is to find value and meaning...and to hope that someday God will rescue us from our graves...I find it very difficult to believe in the twi mentality of " believers go to heaven and unbelievers are destined for eternal death"...if personal accountibility doesn't fit into the equation, then why are we even here? Life is hard... ...have a nice day.

Hmmm...sounds like "twig" to me... Manifestations?...based upon what?...twi doctrine? no thanks

Standing with twi, I prayed from a list provided to me Standing before God, I pray from my heart Standing with twi, I shunned people who wouldn't cough up the money for the class Standing before God, I extend my heart to those in need Standing with twi, I sent money to a religious corporation Standing before God, I give to those whom God inspires me to give to Standing with twi, I was an arrogant know-it-all Standing before God, I realize how little I know Standing with twi, I wore a nametag that people could read Standing before God, I am known for who I really am Standing with twi, I felt immune from the sins I committed Standing before God, I am fully aware that I am accountable for what I do Standing with twi, Jesus was absent Standing before God, I know that the presence of Jesus is my only hope in life

The crown of tidy bowl?

Maybe I'm not "liberal" enough...but the sight of two men kissing makes me want to "whistle carrots"... ...and I don't care if they are cowboys or work for H&R Block. Now, two girls kissing...for some reason that doesn't offend me as much...but that's just me.

In hindsight, the "ethics" of Wierwille stand out in my mind as being totally self centered. It was always about him...He had to be the center of attention at all times. He twisted the bible to meet his own ends and his actions showed no regard for others... He passed off the work of others as his own and his adultrous and drunken lifestyle provokes only contempt from me today. The teachings and ethics of Victor Paul Wierwille?... ...If Wierwille DOES make it to heaven, he will be cleaning toilets.

igotout...As far as I know, Donna doesn't "like" men anymore. ... ...and Chas beat me to it...but I was gonna ask the question...what is Donna doing with her right hand that would cause such a sh it eating grin on her face.

As a professional chair stringer, making a triple figure salary, I owe everything to my corps training.

Yes...I remember her. I was in Missoula, Montana in the early 80's for awhile...I worked with her husband Mel for a few months. They both seemed like nice people...have no idea where she is now.

I would have to say that the will of God is the will of God... Is it contained in the bible? I think that fragments of God's will can be found there...but it's not this "fits with a mathematic exactness and scientific precision" idea that wierwille promulgated... Funny thing...wierwille was always emphasizing that the written word should be our standard for truth and that experiences were not to be trusted...but wasn't the bible written by men who had experiences? Had Paul followed wierwille's advice, would he have trusted his own experiences to write the church epistles? How about Moses?...or Peter...or even Jesus?...Did Jesus trust his own experiences? If a person never trusts his/her own experiences to understand God's will, they are living vicariously through the experiences of others. The bible is chock full of exortations to have fellowship with God, to try the spirits, to enter the thone of God with boldness, to pray, to listen for God's voice, to follow the Lord, to discern the spirits, to receive the things of God...that our understanding might be enlightened... The bible is an OWNERS MANUEL! Twi turned "God's will" into an academic excercize...to study OTHER people's EXPERIENCES!...but not to trust their own? Turning the bible into an idol? Twi taught that the middle wall of partion was broken down and that we had our own access to God...but they never believed it...why else did twi followers have to have everything "cleared" through a hierarchy? As long as wierwiile could get people to question their own experiences, and turn solely to the bible for truth (which HE interpreted for us)...he had CONTROL over people. How can you tell people (out of one side of your mouth), to have your own relationship with God, and then proceed to micromanage their lives for them (because their own experiences are not to be trusted)...out of the other side of their mouths? If you cannot know God's will though your own experiences, what good is the bible anyway???

...You tell me what you think of Veepee Wierwille and I'll tell you how far you've come in your cult recovery. May God open your eyes...

Eagle...Sure, I think the devil spirit scare was prevalent throughout twi...especially after martinfart got into his dwa classes. I cannot recall all the times that some wc punk would make a pronouncement that so and so was possessed and that was the cause of the problem... ...I was never accused of being possessed UNTIL I pointed out from the bible that lcm was wrong about some things...that was the final straw for me.

Absolutely obscene!... ...It was the lavish ego and lifestyle of Veepee who set the standard for self indulgence...I recall the motorcycles, jets, buses, clothing, etc etc etc... ...Gee, I wonder why the lavish lifestyle of Veepee wasn't tossed out as "old wine skins" along with his teachings. <_<

djs...Keep looking my friend...keep looking. :)

Like many others here, I left twi before Waydale or GS was around...I understand exie's sentiment about being alone and isolated. Twi counted on that very thing in order to maintain their facade... Once we "rallied" together on the internet, their house of cards began to crumble. So much can be accomplished when there are open lines of communication. I've been helped by many many folks here, with the accounts that they have related...thank you one and all...and if I have helped anyone with my own words, I am glad to have contributed. My heart's desire is to see all of us come to terms with what happened and to find peace and happiness in this life...May God bless you all.