GrouchoMarxJr

Sure...the name tags were what twi was all about. They symbolized the superficial ego trips that abounded. A little piece of plastic on your shirt for all to see...I'm a WOW...I'm an advanced class grad...I'm corps! I threw all mine away....don't need no stinkin' nametag.

Twi has always had the knack of twisting scripture and various words to achieve their own self serving interest. Wanna get blessed?

The House of His healing presense...In the sedate and peaceful way woods...where numerous believers would sit quietly and pray...a time of refection and hope...a time of faith, when God would answer prayers and touch the hearts of the humble...a time of healing for many weary souls... .........CUT......... Enter king okie...OK boys...bring that bulldozer on in...that's it...knock that sucker down!

I like to tell people that I went to a "bible college"...it seems to impress them... ...I never bring up the word "cult" in my conversations with them...nor do I ever put it on a job resume. Were the people who bought Enron stock "brainwashed"?...naw, they just bought into something that wasn't quite the way they thought it was...they got conned....just like we did. Only the guy who conned us did it in God's name...makes it more personal...the lousy bas* tards.

I dunno Chas...I googled it but only came up with the anti-way sites that deride it as being phoney... Jeeziz...when the whole picture comes into focus on how docvic pulled off this con job...you gotta laugh! It's hysterical...I mean, if you don't laugh, you might cry...and laughings a better medicine for the soul. ...I'll bet the place needs a paint job by now...

Where?...at Pikes Peak seminary? No...I showed up for orientation but there was nobody home!...just kidding I think it was from Karl Kohler's book..."the cult that snapped", where I read the documentation of Veepee's extra curricular activities at his old denomination...he was having an affair with a woman in the church and got caught...he was told to resign or get fired...that's when he made up the story about quitting because of a rift with the foreign mission money...I'm 90% sure that's where I read it....It was from an interview with some bigwig from his former denomination that Karl did....it's been awhile since I read the book...like I said, I'm 90% sure that's where I first heard it...but I have heard it numerous times from various sources...let me work on it a bit and see if I can come up with the actual documentation of this incident...maybe someone else remembers better than me...

Looks like my old, off campus college fraternity house... Ya gotta click on it to enlarge it and "really see" this institute for higher learning. Maybe I could get them to send me a sheepskin too... ...Dr. Groucho? PS-By the way, this wasn't the back of the house...this was the main entrance!

Before the cornfield conman began his cult, he was known as Rev. Wierwille...of course he was fired by his denomination for sexual indiscretions (in case you didn't know) In 1948 Vic Wierwille (who "invented" the hook shot), started calling himself "DR." ...sounds impressive doesn't it? In fact, we all called him Dr. Wierwille...damn, that sounds impressive. The only problem was that his "doctors" degree came from a place called Pikes Peak Bible Seminary in Colorado...this institution has never been accredited or recognized by any reputable agency. It has no resident instruction and no published list of faculty. Wierwille claimed that the president of Pikes Peak (Dr. H. Ellis Lininger) had been the head of the Department of education for the state of Colorado. However the department of education for the state of Colorado says that this is absolutely false...Vic just made it up. For your entertainment...I will post a picture of Pikes Peak Bible Seminary:

...Good point...A face that could turn anyone's stomach. This "old wineskins" is a curious thing to me... ...I left in 87 so I never experienced it. It would seem to me that all these changes occurred after the fog years, when between 75% and 90% of the ministry left...the numbers had dwindled horribly. Was this an effort to try to "revamp" twi to bring in more people? ...or was it a case where king okie realized that he was living in the shadows of the legend of Veepee and wanted his own glory? ...or maybe a combination of the two?

...Maybe it was just lunch time.

One of the reasons that I enjoy it so much...

When you fit all the pieces together (like a jigsaw puzzle), the picture that emerges is one of VP Wierwille with horns on his head... Looking at how Veepee hijacked the ministries of Doop and Heefner through manipulation, declaring himself in charge and grabbing all the money... combine that with how he stole the works of BG Leonard and others... You got a guy who stole the academics of other men, and then stole the practical ministries of the Jesus movement...got himself a "Dr.'s degree" through a phoney mail order "college" and then set himself up as the MOG! ...and through it all he was a drunk and an adulterer... He was a conman and a grifter of the first degree. It was always about self glory and money for him...he couldn't have done any of it without being a ruthless liar and thief. ...and this is the guy that Mike and others STILL put up on a pedestal...ouch!

...And the funny thing is that I have talked in length with some of twi's "early leaders" who knew Martindale when he first showed up...what a f*up he was...I don't think Loy ever had a clue...for him, it was always about flash and pomp. He was just TOO impressed with himself...why?... got me. He was a chump.

Gosh.....dmiller...thanks for bringing this thread back to our attention. Some great testimonies from folks who were there in the early years. A reminder of the heart that people had...the way that it evolved...seeing how Veepee stepped in and grabbed the power and glory for himself. I hope that some of the "innies" venture in here and read this stuff...this was how it started. Doop and Heefner were SO instrumental in the early years...great hearts, humble men, men of faith who worked hard for the Lord...and then came the great ego...VP farking Wierwille. For anyone who really wants to know about twi...these years tell the story of how the cornfield preacher stepped in and proclaimed "I am the great one!"...grabbing the money and trashing the honest work that had begun.

...and there I was on a roll...thought I had hit on something ...but Jim brings up a very valid point. Nobody...and I mean NOBODY smootched Vic's foot more than king okie. ...and no doubt, templelady makes a good point too. Lcm did know where the bodies were buried. All in all, Veepee did view Loy as his protege. The one who wore the brown lipstick, who knew the dark secrets and had the personality to hog the spotlight....Although, I doubt that Vic ever dreamed that Loy, once he had the much coveted mantle, would turn on him like a wild dog turns on the old sick and weaker dog...mauling him by destroying every program (WOW, ROA, PFAL) that the cornfield preacher had spent much of his life building....even called his teachings "old wineskins". ...Just goes to show you how heartless Martindale was. Of course today, the Craiggers is picking sh *t with the chickens.

I think that Wierwille's selection of Martindale to replace him as president of twi is very revealing... In a career filled with wrong choices, VPW's final decision to replace himself with king okie led to the rapid downfall of twi. In hindsight, VP SHOULD have known better. Martindale simply wasn't qualified for the job. He was arrogant, self centered, egotistical and not that bright...so why Martindale? My theory is that Veepee decided to find the most "charismatic" person he could...why? Because in his heart he knew that twi was a personality cult. He could have chosen Walter (who left LCM far behind in terms of biblical knowledge and an ability to make more level headed decisions)...or a host of other candidates that had more organizational skills, more experience in Christian ministry and more Christian qualities in their lives... My belief is that Veepee knew that it was his own personality that held twi together throughout the years and he needed to find someone who could fill his shoes. It's a common occurence for a cult to die when the cult leader dies...Wierwille was hopeful that Martindale's charismatic personality would be sufficient to keep it going. Had Wierwille truly believed in the power of God and the integrity of what he taught, his criteria for selecting a new president would have been different. ...So, in a very real sense, his selection of Martindale not only revealed his own lack of Christian faith but also sealed the fate of his cult...relegating it to continue on as a personality cult...and we should thank him for that. His selection of the loud mouth from okie land, ultimately led us to the realization of exactly what we were involved with...

Garth...If you have a problem with the term cult, perhaps you can suggest a different term to describe twi? Personally, I have no problem with calling twi a cult. I acknowledge the points that you brought up but, as of today, I have not found any other term that describes twi as well...Let's see if we can come up with one: "Dysfunctional denomination"? "BG Leonard Offshoot"? "Biblical research, teaching and fellowship orgainzation"? "misguided chair stringers"?

About 6 months ago I spoke with Jim Doop on the phone. We talked for about 2 or 3 hours...He told me many things about those days...things that I won't discuss on this forum. He's a great guy who's been through a LOT... ...and yes, "The cult that snapped" summarizes it quite well.

You were right the first time Mark...everything IS Bush's fault. That's gonna be the new religion that I start: BIRFAT (Bush Is Responsible For All Troubles) Our symbol will the flag of Texas hung upside down.

Two crack heads were standing on a corner one night trying to solicit some drugs when a nun passed them by. Seeing the two wayward youths, the nun stopped and went over to talk to them. She advised them that they were doing something very wrong and that they should go home and stop doing drugs. One of the crackheads just smirked at her and turned his head...but the other listened intently and said "you're absolutely right, I'm going to heed you're advice" When the nun left, the one crackhead asked his pal..."why did you agree with her?" ...He replied, "Any friend of Batmans is a friend of mine"

Groucho clears throat.... "Know my people that time flies like the wind but fruit flies like bananas"

Roy...thanks for the compliment concerning my Bart Simpson avatar...but as you can see I changed it last night to something "different". :)

I often wonder where Martindale got the chaputz to change so much of what Wierwille taught...I mean, it's common knowledge that loyboy wasn't too sharp at "working the word"...his knowledge of Greek and Aramaic were dismal, and he had nowhere near the overall knowledge of the bible that many of his peers in twi had...but yet...once the "mantle" was laid upon him, he thought that every fricking idea that entered his numbskull was revelation? I can still recall listening to king okie give his 15 minute words of prophecy while at Emporia...he would go on and on and on...........................................and on. :blink:

Roy... I think you make some good points. When I think of the complexity of life and the magnitude of God, I think that it's foolish to try to put it all in a bottle and lay it out in a formula. I'm sure that God reveals truth to each of us in different ways...when a person is honest and loving, they reflect something that is godly...You have a good heart Roy. Thanks for the post.

...and while were on the subject...anybody ever catch Robert Tilton? Don't know if he's still around (he might be dead by now for all I know)...but I recall watching him years ago... Talk about a money hound!...He was relentless in his broadcasts, shaking people down for more and more and even more money. Want God's prosperity in your life?...just send your dough to Tilton and God would know that you were really "sincere" about receiving his blessings...your money would trigger the "THIS ONE'S OKAY" blinker on the Big Ol' Jesus of Our Father's Tally board and ...voila, prosperity is raining down on you from heaven. This guy was straight out of the depths of the fundamentalist talent pool On a really good show he would spread the pray requests out on the floor and CRAWL across them...and he would squint his eyes. Ever see an echidna? It's an animal from Australia that looks like it has venereal warts all around it's eyes...when Tilton would squint, he looked like an echidna. Most Europeans think that American culture is all about Big Macs and levis...if they ever caught wind of this guy, they would run for the hills everytime an American tourist would show up in their country...afraid that maybe they had made one of those "vows" to Tilton and was preparing to multiply their "seed" all over the airport. PS- portions of this post were paraphrased from the book, "The Real Frank Zappa"... Funny stuff to be sure.