GrouchoMarxJr

Twi's doctrine of the "absent Christ" was the nefarious doctrine that Wierwiile used to place himself in the position of mog (man of God)... Yes..."the word takes the place of the absent Christ"...and Wierwille was the ultimate authority on what the word said...thus...Wierwille took the place of the absent Christ. When Jesus was about to depart, he said that he would send a "comforter"...the spirit that would lead us into all truth...he did NOT say that the written word would take his place and that VP Cornfield would be the authority of that word...Wierwille made the whole thing up.

Yes...absolutely.

Everybody sing along... "There goes my faaaaamily, I can tell who they are...they're the scum that are sitting on their asses in the back seat of their caaaaar..."

I believe that the proper acronym is: Fornicating Under Carnal Knowledge, which was a description of sex outside of marriage, rendered by the catholic church....

During my time in twi, I tried hard to become scum... The Way Tree progression of achievments: (1 being the start and 10 being the highest achievment) 1-gullible 2-spit sucker 3- pup tent dweller 4-egomaniac 5-bottom feeder 6-foot biter 7-koolaid drinker 8-mildew 9-scum 10-motorcoach dweller ...I'm afraid that I never got any higher than bottom feeder... :(

...and therein lies the rub. These folks are NOT mental health professionals. Their group identifies itself with being a "Christian" based organization. By going the route of religion, they avoid the entire academic approach and operate under the flag of Christianity. The fact of the matter is they are an offshoot of a group called "Lifespring" which makes no pretense of being Christian....and "Lifespring" is an offshoot of the original "EST" training from the 70's. The founder of Momentus was actually an instructor with "Lifespring", who quit and started his own thing (sound familiar?)...only when he started up Momentus, he put a thin veneer of Christian jargon into the training. The Momentus training is almost identical to the Lifespring training... The question that should be asked is are the techniques used by Momentus biblical? I see NOTHING in the bible that even hints at this type of experience. Can you see Jesus asking you to sign a hold harmless agreement?...or putting you through sleep deprivation and then screaming at you and ordering you to punch a pillow screaming, "mommy, mommy"??? If a person finds value in Momentus...that's their decision....but let's be honest about it....this is new age psycho therapy...and definitely not Christian in nature. I realize that if a Christian takes Momentus, they can internalize their belief systems into the training...but that's only because of what they bring into the training themselves...The same could be said of the experience of an Ozzy Osbourne concert.

You're quite welcome ex10... :)

In all honesty, I think this thread IS balanced. There are pros and there are cons concerning Momentus...A number of folks have expressed their experience as being positive and found value in the training program...others found it destructive and negative. Even as those who fall into the "con" side could be called "bashers"...those who fall into the "pro" side could be called koolaid drinkers?... automatic bashers?...what's automatic about it?...Personally, I spent a significant amount of time investigating this thing. I talked at length (face to face) to about a dozen folks who had taken it and were in favor of it. I went to the Momentus "public explanation" meeting and heard the presentation by the 3 trainers, I studied the internet and other sources for information...and found much. I personally discussed this thing with both JAL and Schoenheit...I allowed all the information I had on Momentus to "incubate" in my mind and considered it at length....my conclusion to not take it came after much deliberation and thought... ...and yes, I bash it...but it's not AUTOMATIC bashing. If everyone thought the same way, and were likeminded on this thing, there would be no need for this thread. There is an element of debate in these various posts and that's a good thing...there's no need for anyone to be upset because there are others with opposing views... ...if everyone had the same opinion of Momentus...THEN it would resemble a cult mentality. Differences of opinion reflect individuality...and this is healthy.

In my opinion, Wierwille never imagined that he would be "pushed aside" into the background and disregarded after Loy became president. I think that the master conman finally realized that he had been conned himself. Nobody kissed his foot like Martindale did...that is, until Martindale had what he wanted, the "mantle"...then he turned on Wierwille like a mean dog. Much of what Wierwiile said after that was probably nothing more than sour grapes. If I had the opprotunity to say anything to Wierwille today it would be "I want my money back!"

After reviewing this entire thread, which extends over a period of 2 years, I have come to the conclusion that I should start my own training program for people... ...I will call it "BOJNOC" ...In this training , which promises spiritual growth and enlightenment, I will take a group of " new people" out into the middle of lake Erie in a "lifeboat" and play old Alice Cooper tapes until they beg me to take them back to shore...Of course, I will not do this until their checks clear into my bank account and they finally realize that "BOJNOC" is CON JOB spelled backwards...there will be no repercussions against me because of the "hold harmless clause" that I made them all sign... ...and when it is all over, some will say that it was a bad experience...while others call George in order to get some of those smart pills.

Most here, totally disagree with this quote...The Way never delivered any of these things.

grand daughter...welcome to the GreaseSpot! It's true that Veepee promoted the book "The Hiding Place"...but I think it was more of a case of the example set of tenacity and determination than it was pro Jew. In my considerable experience with Wierwille, he seemed extremely anti-semetic...as did Martindale as well.

Galen...I have to admit that I admire your spunk and determined attitude in your Christian endeavors. Wanting to fellowship with other believers and to be bible centered is a noble thing, IMHO... ...I just don't understand how you can hold on to the phoney twi doctrines that, IMHO, are so obviously wrong....C'mon now, you're obviously not a dumb guy...haven't you re-examined twi doctrine and discovered the NUMEROUS errors in pfal like the rest of us? No hard feelings towards you...I just disagree with what grifter Vic taught.

Thanks everybody for the responses...I think Karl Kohler could shed some light on this but he hasn't been around Greasespot for some time now. There are definitely people who know about this...I have a feeling that most of them are either dead or in an old folks home somewhere...

I take no joy in his death... ...He did what he did and a lot of people were hurt tremendously. I would rather have seen him live and go to prison.

jr4jc...Yes, I am a Christian and believe in the ressurection of Christ...and I also believe that God works when and where He can in individual's lives and also in the lives of collective groups... ...That being said, I'm not so sure that twi even qualifies as a Christian organization. Their "absent Christ" doctrine discouraged a personal relationship with the savior and instead replaced that relationship with being a follower of a man-made hierarchy that was fueled by egotism, wrong doctrines and deceit. In the final analysis, twi used and abused people. Learned to walk with God while in twi?...Good for you, but I dare say that if you did...it was in SPITE of twi, not because of them. Many folks have been convinced that they were "tapped into the truth" while being involved with such illustrious groups as Hari Krishna, the Moonies, Jim Jones, David Koresh, and L Ron Hubbard...Personally, I have dismissed the "feel good" experiences of cult involvement and written them off as phoney baloney. V.P. Wierwille was a con man. He stole the works of other men and then fashioned them around his own ego and ulterior motives. He was a drunken womanizer and the fruit of his "ministry" is clearly bogus. The great lesson that I learned from twi was that "there's a sucker born every minute". ....a bad tree simply doesn't produce good fruit.

Pfal was such a cash cow that twi started pumping out every conceivable thing that they could think of in the form of a "class" ( cough up the dough sucker)... I think one of the most destructive classes that I took was "The Way Tree" class... It was taught by little Johnny (Wierwille wannabe) Town***d. This is the class where he equated the first century church with twi's oppressive control structure. It solidified, in people's minds, that the body of Christ functioned best with a centralized hierarchy that relayed God's will for us through a chain of command. This was the doctrinal basis for controlling people's lives. ..."The first century church in the 20th century" was perhaps the most twisted, convoluted piece of garbage that twi ever put out. More people were turned into chumps because of this "class" than perhaps any other (except pfal of course)...I can still see all the little "leaves" digging deep into their pockets when the "horn" was passed around... ...Grifter Vic sure was proud of little Johnny for THAT one.

Hee hee...Yep, Ol' Bob was really sharp wasn't he? I watched him leap over a table once to cast out an "epileptic spirit" from a guy who went down because of a cramp in his leg...

...Of course it was always about the money. Twi became a multi million dollar corporation by charging filthy lucre for "Gawd's werd"...(not to mention the dough that rolled in from seminars and "advances" and how could we ever forget the abs)... What was the very first assignment given to the new students in session 1?...Read "Christians should be prosperous"...Plant the idea that they were about to be shook down every week for what they owed Gawd (twi) from their paycheck. If you reduce the pfal class down to it's basic message...it was that Wierwille was the mog and we want your money...the rest of it was filler. ...By the way Galen, how much do YOU charge for teaching this diatribe?

CONNERRON...Welcome to Greasespot. Sounds like you seen a few "things" in twi...welcome to the Mickey Mouse club where we all take turns slapping Goofy around a bit...

I really don't consider "bad words" to be vulgar...I use them all the time. What I find vulgar is an inconsiderate , selfish person whose actions disregard others. Actually so-called "vulgar words" are, at times, quite appropriate in communicating. :)

In a thread that I started not long ago concerning Wierwille's phoney Dr's degree, I stated that Veepee had been caught having sex with someone in his church and was given an ultimatum to resign or be fired... ...I believe this to be true but have been unable to document it for sure...for this I apologize. Any legitimate documentation of this would be appreciated. If I am wrong, I stand corrected.

Just reading these posts raises the hair on the back of my neck...Stevie Kay Louis was one of the bright spots in twi...she was an extremely talented person who poured out her heart and stood faithful for many years with twi...her music inspired thousands for many years... This is a good example of what a grade A jerk*** Martindale was...How DARE he? Who the frick did he think he was? The moron was continually cutting off his nose to spite his face...did someone molest him as a child or something? This thread was the first I had heard of this story and it's just one more example of the total lack of love, heart and vision by Loy C. Martindale...the man deserved what he got...

I agree...

Sure it's funny...in hindsight. The bible says "you shall know them by their fruit"...in twi it was "you shall know them by their nametag" ...Perhaps the reason twi pushed the nametag thing was because there was so little fruit to know them by otherwise?