GrouchoMarxJr

58 years old...I remember the craigers when he was in his twenties...all full of high hopes, great aspirations and boundless energy...and 58 isn't that old...at one time, he probably saw himself as a spiritual giant who would, by the age of 58, have reached mighty levels of spiritual understanding...who would have taken the work of Wierwille and increased it ten fold... ...but no, that's not what happened...is it Craig?

How ironic...that Emporia could possibly turn into a minimum security prison. ...and they took the wrecking ball to Kenyon Hall!...That would have been fun to watch. Maybe they could put a big fence around the place and turn it into an interrogation center for suspected terrorists...make em sit on the top floor of Wierwille library for hours and listen to lcm teaching tapes...over and over and over...they'd be talkin' in no time.

Actually...Chris Geer was not really born in the conventional sense...at least, as rumor has it. I was told once that Geer came from one of those pods...like in the horror movie. When they wiped the slime off of him, there he was...standing there with a bible in one hand and a revolver in the other. With a dead cold stare and with the smell of death around him, he hissed..."Gaaawd sent meeeeeee"...many fled.

I had nightmares about those little blob things...you ready for a flogging?

I checked out the NCIC website...they're goona give ME access...right! I can almost see Vic sitting in a chair...just wet himself...spit running down his chin...screaming "I didn't touch that girl, where's Howard?"

Linda...Pray tell, are you saying that Donna might be a rugmuncher? and you're so politie about it too...but wait! I thought that homosexuality was devil possesion! Old wineskins?

Well...C'mon Chas, you gonna keep us sittin' on the edge of the chair...or are you gonna spill the beans? :)

potato...How long have you been out?...I see that you are a relatively new poster. Take comfort in the idea that the longer you are out, the better life becomes...it's true. I've been out for nearly 20 years now and I feel (and have felt for many many years), that whatever twi did to me...well, I've recovered... ...it's true that their love was fake...but there's much love that's real...unconditional love where people accept you and genuinely care...we call them family and friends. People who are willing to extend a hand and MEAN it...people who are willing to invest themselves in you...and to be there when the chips are down. Don't despair my friend, better days are coming for you I suspect :) ...and don't forget that many of the folks I speak about are right here on the GreaseSpot Cafe...salt of the earth. :)

...And what's so sad is that twi considered itself to be "spiritually sharp"...so many "sincere leaders" trying to "be their best for God"...gimme a break! If they were so spiritually sharp, this should have been a no brainer. Lording over people, controlling every aspect of thier lives...and these guys went for it?... ...Either they went for it, or they knew they were wrong and went along anyway...in EITHER case...they failed! They failed miserably. They were either spiritually NUMB or they were agreeing to evil...take your pick. I won't be happy until the entire organization is defunct...dissolved...disbanded...and...neutered.

The stiffling legalism in twi was so obviously repressive, so obviously controlling, so obviously wrong... ...It almost seemed at times that the "leaders" who tore into you were getting even for when someone higher on the food chain, tore into them. It was this cruel little chain of command that would sneer at, and disregard the individual... Slash and burn...public humiliation, lording over other people, invading their privacy, manipulating their time and finances...and they thought that they were right?...They thought they were "blessing people"?... In hindsight, I can think of better ways to live my life, than by subjecting myself to a relgious hierarchy...but that's just me. :)

I would love to see someone post a mug shot of one of the former twi leaders as they were booked at 3 am... I can just see old Veepee...hair all messed up, dark sunken eyes, unshaven,...it would make a great poster.

...Neither did Rosie or Donna.

Time capsule?...Seems to ring a bell with me...Isn't that where they buried the list of all the people that Wierwille plagiarized from?...and the list of names of all of Wierwille's sexual conqusts?...along with a full bottle of drambuie and his glass eye? ...bet that eye would bring some real bucks on Ebay.

There's no doubt that Harvey and Linder are both glassy eyed losers. During the late 80's, a lot of very talented people left twi...some of the spit suckers stayed, hoping that with the departure of so many top leaders...they would eventually slip into a cozy job and take a position that they never would have gotten otherwise...Harvey's one of those guys. A hanger-on whose corporate loyalty has rewarded him with a life of mediocrity and religious titles... Linder is a different story...I remember him in residence. How he was ever named to the bot is one of the great mysteries of this cornfield cult. The guys a natural born wallflower with the personality of paint drying...and a little short in the brains department. If these two are indicitive of the quality of twi's current leadership, is it any wonder that the splinter groups are growing faster than twi? I can't believe that ANYONE would join up with that bunch of losers.

rascal...You bring up a very good point...age. I was 24 when I first got involved with twi and by the time I left in 1987, I was 36. I know that for me personally, I was wiser, and more confident and mature at 36 than at 17. Had I been 17 I'm sure that I would have tolerated more abuse than I did at 36. ...and yes, I also was subjected to "obey leadership" doctrine...Having realized that God is perfect and humans make mistakes, I "walked out" on this doctrine very gingerly...I tested it...and guess what? Twi leadership decisions were wrong MOST of the time...from my experience... ...Therefore, it was a small jump for me when I decided to leave twi. I had been seeing the handwriting on the wall for a number of years and was becoming quite skeptical of the whole organization. When martindale began his legalistic programs, the realization that twi was "off the word" hit me like a ton of bricks. The day that I finally made the decision to leave twi was one of the most liberating days of my life...Knowing that MY decisions were now free of and superior to, twi's decisions...felt like breathing fresh cool air after being locked in a closet.

no police reports but plenty of personal experiences and other first hand accounts to understand what this guy is about...Chris Geer, IMHO, is dangerous and should be avoided like the ebola virus.

I really can't think of any legalism stories like the ones that I've read...This micromanaging a person's life boggles my mind. I can't believe that they were reduced to such controlling weinies. I left in 1987 when Martindale required that twig leaders start reporting (on a weekly basis), who was faithful in their fellowship and who wasn't....I flat out refused...that was the end of it. No offense intended...but to allow this guy to micromanage your lives the way he did!!!...Why didn't you just quit? I never would have put up with that crap. Get permission to attend a cake baking class?...What, you're kidding me right? My attitude was always...twi will get what I give them...nothing more. When they pushed me, I pushed back... In the early 70's, twi believers were smoking dope at twig, getting drunk in bars and doing what they damn well pleased...nobody ever had to account for themselves...it was none of their damned business...and they knew it! It wasn't until an evolution of mind conditioning and group think mentality that saturated twi..did the legalism begin to take root...they convinced people that they were responsible to THEM (twi leaders) for their actions...they began to live in the eyes of other people and they lost their way...so very sad.

So...was Geer arrested for exposing himself?...Who knows? I haven't seen any police reports yet... ...but what we DO know is that he was a bus driving pimp who solicited young girls and led them into the back of the motor coach for Vic to molest....he was a pimp. For those of you who are involved with his "franchise"...can good fruit come from a screwed up tree..."Walking in God's Power"?...no thanks boy, no church with you.

It only makes sense that a young person would want to live their own life...to make their own choices... ...and how many kids would choose a repressive religious system when the whole world awaits them?

It seems inevitable that a dissenting voice will always be a threat to the status quo...When someone sets themselves up with authority, they eventually have to find an effective method to quiet the dissension in order to maintain their power... ...Why is it necessary to "give yourself a name and hoist a flag"?...Once they do that, they become a religion and fall prey to all the trappings that go with it. The bible says something about Christ being the head of a spiritual body...Why does man insist on injecting his ego into this?

It would appear that RumRunner mixed up CFF and CES...There's so many spinoffs these days, that it takes a scorecard to keep track of them... ...but I agree with his general sentiment regarding, "from hell's heart, I stab at thee"... ...It seems to me, that many of those who were indoctrinated into the upper echelon of twi have an insatiable desire to continue their roles of "WE are the humble servants of Christ who, incidently, are also building an orginzational structure that appropriates funds, sets agendas and establishes US in authoritive positions"... Not that being in charge of other people's belief systems (and making a living at it), is necessarily wrong...it's just that there is a tendency to draw masochists into the fold on a large scale...and this only leads to people BEGGING to be controlled...You can't impose legalism on people unless the people are willing to subject themselves to it...and perhaps this is the legacy that twi has left behind...a lot of spiritually co-dependant people.

I think about those men and women of the first corps and then I think about those who are running twi today... To run those people off...to reject them out of hand as being "tripped out" or whatever they called them...is to reject the roots and history of twi. The people with talent and brains...the people who were committed to the truth...the real leaders of twi...simply run them off with a legal warning! It seems clear to me that the lowlifes who did this, hijacked the ministry that thousands dedicated their lives to. If they felt they were wrong...why didn't they all sit down and work things out? How could they have simply run these people off without sitting down and talking the matter over? Were they ever interested in grounding the situation in God's word?...These people were the heart and soul of the leadership of twi...they were the talented ones..If it were me, I would have thought twice before dismissing their collective opinions and booting them all...but there was Martindale...king okie, sitting in the "presidents chair", couldn't wait to get rid of the lot of them...why?...because they saw through him like a cheap suit...they wouldn't kiss his arse...and he needed to surround himself with flunkies who would submit to his ungodly wisdom and condone his evil behavior without question...sick, really sick.

Really good post Eagle...I think you hit the nail on the head. The true servants of God don't seek self acclaim or titles...they don't try to lord over other people and are not vindictive s.o.b.s...and because of the that, they left twi...and they continue to walk the path of life, touching those who they meet in that path...many of them are here at GreaseSpot...

My WOW year was filled with sex, alcohol and hangin' out... The guidelines were a joke. My WOW family consisted of 2 gals and 2 guys...all of us in our mid twenties. They sent us to Chicago and we had a blast....by midyear, we all had members of the opposite sex that we were "undershepparding"...The two drink limit really meant 8 or 10 and we witnessed about 4 hours...a WEEK! I was feeling guilty at the roa when they gave me my wow pin...that is, until my wow brach leader told me that I was one of the best wows in the branch!!!...

Howard Allen...An interesting study in human pathos. The guy starts off as a handyman who pounds nails and mows lawns and at the peak of his career, he is pimping for cornfield Vic and wearing a 3 piece suit. From bus driver to sec./treasurer of twi...and what exactly qualified Howard to be in charge of the books? It certainly wasn't his raw intellect or his academic background... ...Simple...he was Wierwille's pal. He was the one who knew where the bodies were buried and who Vic had in the back of the motorcoach...and according to various reports, he had his own share of sexual conquests. Where is he today?...he's probably living off of the fat of the abs collected so many years ago...wandering around in the land of the prevailing scam...fondly remembering all the "good times" that he and Vic had as they got drunk and laughed all the way to the bank. When he finally croaks, will they bury him at the fountain of dead waters?...or maybe in the haunted woods of twi?...or perhaps they should cremate him and pour his ashes into the gas tank of that wretched bus.