GrouchoMarxJr

During my 13 years with twi, I traveled to numerous states and experienced numerous twi leaders...Women were ALWAYS treated like second class citizens...If there seemed to be any "courtesy" extended, it was always under the guise of "keep your mouth shut and do what your husband tells you to do"...some twi leaders were nicer in how they said it...that's the only difference. I believe that there are still many ex twi women (some of them post here), who still believe in their "Gog given" subservient role...no thanks, I'm not interested in women who bow down to me...did it ever occur to anyone that Paul's "letters" were his own opinions based on his cultural prejudices?... OH!...but Groucho, Dr. Wormwood assured us that every verse in the bible is God's will!...Hogwash!...Paul of Tarsus was a pyschotic Christian killer who bought into the strict thinking of the pharisees (before he converted)...and all this was 2000 years ago! He wrote these letters to people who had a TOTALLY different culture and way of thinking than we do today....and you're going to hang your hat on THAT?

...and by the way, it wouldn't surprise me one bit if kids were being sexually molested...a lot of these guys that were in charge of "something or another" gave me the willies...they weren't the kind of guys that you would hang out with and have a few beers with...they took themselves WAY too seriously and walked around trying to be a combination of Bob Moneyhands and Craig Martincreep..."spiritual spoon carriers"... ...Hindsight is always 20/20...I wish now that I would have stood up at one of their "mealtime sharings" and told them all what I thought of them...I feel badly for the kids that grew up in that environment... I think that when Bob Moneyhands finally dies, God will be waiting for him with a big wooden spoon...and I mean, a BIG wooden spoon.

I put this one in the open forum because it's not so much about baseball as it is about steroid use... When Roger Maris hit 61 homers and broke Babe Ruth's record of 60, they put an asterisk next to his record because he did it in 162 games and Ruth did it in 154 games... ...I wonder if they should put an asterisk next to Barry's name?

Francee and I used to do LSD together before either of us ever heard of twi...we became great friends

...My real question is...Has anyone ever conducted a hormone test on her to see if she's really a female? Maybe Donna knows something that the rest of us don't know.

While in the 10th corps (I was married but we had no children), we were sent to Rome City for nearly 4 months... One of the very first things that I saw when I got there were kids "getting the spoon"...EVERYBODY had a frickin' wooden spoon in their back pocket and I thought it was lunacy... My first week, I was issued a spoon and when nobody was watching, I pitched it into the trash can...never carried one...ever. Bob Moneyhands stopped me in the hall one day and asked me where my spoon was...I told him that I thought there were enough spoons already and that I didn't care to have one. He called me into his office the next day and asked me why I was there...I told him that I had no idea and that it wasn't my request...I was simply told to report there...He told me to "pray about it" and that God would reveal to me the reason I was there...(HE never did)...and thus, I was clueless. During my time there, I witnessed a multitude of "spoonings" and I was always revolted by it. I eventually learned how to avoid being around the kids...I would see a group of them and walk the other way ( I didn't want to be accused of being a "spoonless wonder")...One thing I knew for sure was that I had no intentions of EVER hitting a child with a wooden spoon and I never did. My time there "creeped me out"...I always thought that there was something very wrong about the whole thing...Bob and Dotty were total jerks and most of the staff were the same...I never felt that I belonged and I didn't like any of them. I found an area in the attic (which was off limits) and hid there (taking naps and reading) for hours at a time...I hated my experience there...and I hated the wooden spoons.

Here ya go Captain Spiritual...this one's for you Barry Bonds, who was a good hitter (hitting about 35 homers a year) suddenly showed up one year looking like the incredible hulk and smashed 75 homers in one season...Babe Ruth's best year was 60... So what do you all think?...steroids or "Mr. Natural"???

"Dr." Bronner?...I'm wondering if he got his doctors degree at Pikes Peak seminary.

Yeah Captain, I'm here... ...My remark about Bonds was used to illustrate my point about Donna and Rosie...perhaps another thread in the open forum would be appropriate to discuss "Mr. Natural"?...after reading some of your responses, I imagine you probably think that Mark McGwire was clean also, that Amway is a good career move, and Jimmy Hoffa is buried in the end zone where the NY. Giants play football.... ...by the way, I have some land in Florida that you might be interested in.

"God would never allow that type of evil to function within a group who is trying to do right period"...??? That's a huge assumption you are making...You are assuming that twi is trying to do "right"...and you are assuming what God would "allow"...I've seen far worse evil in this world that God "allows"...I think it has something to do with people's freedom of will. ...besides, there are many people (Christians included), who do not consider being gay as a "SIN"...As George said, I was stating what is obvious to me...I would be flabbergasted if I were wrong about that...and if I am to be held "accountable some day" for those remarks...well, there's a host of other things that I have done that are of greater concern to me in my "accountability". Be that as it may, I think that Rosie and Donna having a gay relationship is as obvious as Barry Bonds doing steroids, Lee Harvey Oswald shooting JFK, and VPW being a sexual predator...and NONE of those things have ever been proven in a court of law. Captain S...No offense intended towards you, I was just speaking off the cuff.

...And Wierwille never mentioned these great groups to his followers...instead of blessing "his people" with this great music, he attempted to copy it under the big tent of "Wierwille world"...it had to have HIS blessing upon it or it was, no doubt, a counterfeit from the "god of this world"...the guy was a cheesy counterfeit from top to bottom.

...Well, at least he didn't call them the "Vicksters"

Hmmm...Has anybody ever met these people?...I suspect that it's just one person posting under two names...split personality?

Something I learned recently... There has been a tremendous group of extremely talented gospel singers around for a long time that Wierwille "borrowed from"... I have recently watched a number of videos put out by Bill Gaither (homecoming series), featuring such gospel legends as the "Happy Goodmans", The "Blackwood brothers", the "Cathedrals" and "Jake Hess"...among many others...truly inspirational music. While watching these videos, I couldn't help but notice many songs, mannerisms, and formats that Wierwille attempted to copy with Way Productions..."He touched me" was written by Bill Gaither and when I watched him lead it, it reminded me of how Wierwille would try to emulate him...I heard JD Sumner do the "Touch of the Masters Hand"...wayyyyyyyyy before VeePee did it...Vic's obsession with forming a quartet, no doubt, was motivated by the success of the Blackwood brothers and the Cathedrals... did Wierwille EVER come up with anything on his own???...ever???

Actually, I think that Rosie keeping her head stuck in a hole in the ground provides a service to all, who would otherwise, have to gaze at her face...unless of course, she decided to simply put a bag over her head, which would give her more mobility...

Cynical?...Perhaps...but also honest. Wierwille embraced the concept of chauvinism because it suited his desires and his disregard for women...not all men who grew up during that era were as calloused and selfish as Wierwille...many adapted themselves according to compassion and love...Wierwille was void of those things (IMHO) I'm sure that Wierwille had experiences in life that encouraged him to be the way that he was...but he had freedom of will and chose to treat women the way that he did...I'll make no excuses for him.

I always felt that Rosie was chosen to be president because Martindale thought that he could easily return as president and replace her...she has no teaching ability, has no charisma and as a woman, posed no threat to his being the man of Gawd...(she was merely keeping his seat warm and posed no threat to rise up on her own and replace him) Rosie is a cut throat administrator and could keep the trains running on time...plus, she was sleeping with Martindale's wife which almost made her part of the family...

Whatever led to his conclusion, he was being a hypocrite...Mr. Wierwille taught repeatedly from the bible that "all men are liars"...in other words, why did he believe the woman's husband?... Wierwille came from an era of male chauvinism and a background that kept women "in their place"...his entire life was saturated with this belief system. He used the bible to justify his position...it made it much easier for him to sexually abuse women when, in his own mind, they were "inferior" and deserved to be treated as objects. Many of the women in the "early years"of twi that were ordained, paid a high price for their "ordination"...I know of several of them that were Wierwille's personal mistresses. Christian minister?...No, I'm sorry, the man didn't qualify for that title...he was a sexual predator who cloaked his evil deeds under the thin veneer of Christianity.

...and this is the guy that was the "authority" on marriage, relationships and the proper way to treat women... ...I rest my case.

The real problem is that we believed in a fundamentalist view of the scriptures that took every word as being literally true. When one considers the fact that the bible (new testament) is a 2000 years old document, was translated from one language to another to another...when one considers that religious dogma was a major consideration in the translations...and when one considers that cultural norms were VERY different than they are today...it seems ludicrous to me that anyone would take the bible literally. I believe in the major themes and concepts of salvation in Christ that are contained in the scriptures...as far as every jot and every tittle being God breathed...sorry, much of it simply doesn't pass the smell test. There are numerous "books of the bible" that were excluded and many others (whose authenticity is questionable) that were included... Once an individual bought into the twi fundamentalist approach to the scriptures, they fell prey to Mr. Wierwilles interpretaions of it. ...and once again oldies blames the victims of twi for being victims of twi. Any man who still adheres to the chauvinistic twi doctrine of degrading women, deserves to live alone with a blow up doll.

When considering Christian ministry, I don't think it's appropriate to compare it to "for profit" businesses... Christian ministry is a service and labor of love that is a calling...not a calling to provide a paycheck...but a calling to minister in Christ's name. I would never even consider charging money for sharing my knowledge of Christianity. This is not a business that is designed to produce a profit...it's something that is done from the heart...for free. Once sombody incorporates and "gives it a name" and raises a flag over their place of "business", it ceases to be a person to person communication and it becomes a business with expenses, overhead, etc...this is not what I am looking to be involved with... if this is your "calling"...go for it...but it's not mine. To me, it's like starting a business called "friendship incorporated"...I'll be your friend and I'll send you newsletters and tapes telling you what a good friend I am to you...but gosh, this costs me money...therefore, I have to get some money from you in order to cover my expenses...and by the way, because I do this full time, I don't have time to work a regular job...therefore, I need to be compensated in order to pay my rent and buy groceries... No thanks...my friends don't charge me money for being my friend, my savior doesn't charge me money for being my Lord and God doesn't charge me money for being my God...If you want to charge me money for your "services"...fine...I'll consider you as I do any of my other bills, such as my electric bill, phone bill or rent...I'll pay you out of obligation for services rendered... ...but don't be surprised when I don't subscribe to your "business" and pay you nothing...you want to sell tapes and books and make a living out of it?...good for you...look elsewhere because I'm not buying stuff that God gives me for free... I want nothing to do with the "God business"...been there, done that.

As I read Greg Hill's description of Chris Geer, I feel my dinner coming back up my throat...His posts are a testamony of GreaseSpot's tolerance of free speech and free thought...if we let THIS guy post what he's posting...then anybody can say just about anything. Mr Hill...I honestly feel sorry for you. Chris Geer has been a meanspirited lowlife for his entire adult life...He knows God in the same way that I know Derek Jeter...in other words...he doesn't...he's a fake and a conman, just like his "father in the word" VP. Wormville ...Most of the twi "leaders" were puffed up jerks who enjoyed stroking their own egos...Geer, on the other hand, was a dangerous man...his self righteousness and false humility were astounding...From the things you have said about him, I would highly suggest that you seek professional councilling ASAP...

Jonny...Living up there in Alaska almost makes you a Canadian...doesn't it?...eh?

Most of us did...I'm afraid that's there's still some puddin' heads out there that scarf up the bile that VeePee dished out...A mind is a terrible thing to waste.

Psychopaths, sociopaths..give him any label you want...he is still a gutless wonder. Isn't that right Craig?