GrouchoMarxJr

If you suppose that my words are worth remembering, then by all means, remember them...however, I don't think that I have ever told anyone what they can or cannot post. Perhaps you are confusing my disagreement with what they post as me telling them what they can post...

Right you are Jonny...the idea that the bible was wrongly taught in twi is a reoccuring theme here at the GreaseSpot... and again, there's a doctrinal forum for those who wish to discuss biblical doctrine...which I think is a valuable service for people. I would guess that most posters here are still Christians (myself included)...but irregardless of a person's belief system (or lack thereof), they are welcome here. I began my discussion here with addressing the question why people who say positive things about twi are criticized...I drew the analogy of saying positive things about war in an anti war website...perhaps it would be more appropriate for me to draw the analogy of speaking positive things about Hitler in a holocaust survival website? ...and I understand that the bible was central to experiences in twi and that's why I passionately like to point out that twi taught wrong doctrine that hurt a lot of people...and when someone defends twi doctrine, I am free to state an opposing view...I do not state my opinions on atheism here, nor wicca, nor catholicism...nor Hari Krishna, nor the religion of Hank worship...I come to the "About the Way" forum to discuss the Way...and attempting to stay within the context of the mission statement, I point out the "other side" of twi...those who defend twi are like the guy who sticks his head through the wall at the carnival and everyone throws tomatoes at him...and no one should be surprised when that happens.

I very seldom quote bible verses in this forum...I chose that opprotunity to do so because there seemed to be a "rebuke" directed towards those of us who were pointing out the evils of twi...he misquoted the verse and I was merely correcting him as to what the verse actually said. Besides...I never told anyone not to quote bible verses...I may have expressed my opinion about them doing so...but in reality, I have no authority here to tell anyone not to do something.

Point taken...I read into his remarks. I do not agree that it's "The word, the word and nothing but the word"...from my point of view, that's what's called making the bible your idol instead of experiencing God in your life. If that's what Deciderator took away from it, good for him. As far as your other remarks...Many people here attempt to justify their actions by stating their opinions on what the bible says and oftentimes, the implication is that we should all heed those exhortations...I am merely pointing out that there are many here who no longer subscribe to this theology (or their version of it), and that "preaching" to the other posters is oftentimes an annoyance...this is NOT twig...as far as me going somewhere else, I would prefer to stay here and point out that I don't like it. :) People are free to post their opinions here...you can sing the praises of twi and applaud the virtues of pfal all day long...you can talk about the wonderful things that Vic Wierwille did for you in your life and you can encourage people to "renew their minds"...go for it!...HOWEVER, I am free to post my opinions also...which is what I do. My suggestion to find a Christian website, go to church or find a twig was not an exhortation to leave the GreaseSpot...it was an attempt to encourage people to find a more "user friendly" place for their religious views in addition to posting here. and by the way...there is a doctrinal forum here for those who enjoy discussing their necro destiny and other matters of a religious nature.

So who says they are Christians?...holy and without blame? My bible says that we SHOULD be holy and without blame...unfortunately Mr. Wierwille and Mr. Martindale are/were NOT holy and were to blamed for the damage done to other people. I refuse to sweep under the rug, the truth of what happened via religious platitudes.

I disagree with the point. Again...this is NOT a Christian website...if you want to open your bible, go to church, twig or an actual Christian website

I didn't say that you considered your whole life as a "has been"...my comments were within the context that you were talking about...my point was that being a "minister" in twi was bogus to begin with.

Hey, if Jonny wants to consider himself a "has been", who are we to disagree? All joking aside, to look back at your time with twi and to now consider yourself a "has been" because you no longer are doing what you did in twi...is very revealing in and of itself. Personally, I look back at my time in twi as a waste of time...I am not a "has been"...I am a "Now is"...my life is better in every regard...financially, spiritually, mentally, etc, etc.

...And the fact remains that people ARE allowed to make positive statements about twi here...THAT is courtesy enough.

The simple answer to that question can be found by clicking on the "About us" on GreaseSpot's homepage: "Our mission is to provide information that tells the other side of the story about the Way International and it's trustees." Coming to this website and saying positive things about twi is akin to visiting an anti war website and posting positive things about war...Perhaps if this were a "neutral" website that encouraged differing points of view, positive statements regarding twi would be more appropriate. When one considers the purpose and mission of this website, is it any wonder that positive statements about twi are not treated with courtesy???

He also taught that Christ was absent and that we should never speak to him in prayer... If Mr. Wierwille was a Christian, he wasn't leading anyone towards a relationship with Jesus Christ...not as I understand it anyway. The difference between Wierwille and Simon the sorceror is that Peter pulled the plug on Simon...nobody pulled Vic's plug.

Concerned uncle...Welcome to the GreaseSpot!...and you should be concerned! What you are describing sounds very typical of cult behavior. It's the "us versus them" mentality. They become indoctrinated with the idea that their knowledge is unique and superior to anyone outside of their group and this lends itself towards an elitist attitude. Seperating themselves from you is what they are taught to do...it "protects" them from being contaminated by outside sources...sources that do not "line up" with the doctrinal views of their group. This is standard operating proceedure for the Way International...The family camp that they just attended is fresh in their minds and the effects of this experience is, no doubt, responsible for these decisions...I'm sure that they were highly encouraged to eliminate "non-Way people" from their immediate environment for the purpose of their individual "spiritual growth". Try not to take it personally (easier said than done)...because these decisions do not reflect upon you (other than you're not a part of their cult), but upon them and the influence that this cult has upon them. I would encourage you to explore all this website has to offer as it can provide information that will give you a greater appreciation of the situation. Do not be too discouraged as many people here were in the same boat and have since, come to their senses and re-established strong relationships with their families...Twi offers no real solutions and hopefully, in time, your family members will recognize this....Good luck.

I suppose at this point it should be mentioned that the GreaseSpot cafe is NOT a Christian website. Every poster in free to express their opinions (within the framework of the rules), and certainly Christian thought is appropriate within the context off these various threads...as are secular and non religious views. That being said, it should be understood that many here are approaching this topic with a view of historical accuracy to the end of exposing factual information. Each person will respond differently to this information and understandably, emotions, passion and belief systems will come into play. I am sure that many here will have an appreciation of "anotherDan"'s evangelical exortations with regards to this subject...as I am equally sure that others will not. How you respond to this information is your business. Personally, I approach the subject as I would if we were discussing Charles Manson, immoral pyramid schemes or the corruption in politics. I find nothing "unChristian" about bringing to light evils and deceptions that hurt people...in fact, I find the information in this particular thread to be both helpful to people and consistant with the purpose of this website. If you believe that forgiving Mr. Wierwille for his behavior is the right thing to do...then do it...but the question that I pose is: How can you forgive someone for something they did if you do not know about it?...In other words, the suppression of facts does not lend itself to making an informed decision in regards to your response to the actions of Mr. Wierwille and twi. If you keep your head buried in the sand under the idea of "judge not"...you are not being honest and "religious ideas" replace honest evaluation. So many people have been hurt by twi...so many blaming themselves for what was not their fault, so many buying into deception...if God judges me for what I say on this website, I am willing to "take my lumps"...sometimes the truth is unpleasant but is important to be told if people are to learn and to recover. and what was it that Peter said to Simon the sorceror when he tried to facilitate a false ministry?...or should we comment on Jesus' remarks to the pharisees?

Some very enlightening posts in this thread....especially for the newcomers here who perhaps, have not heard these things before. Rev JD told me the same things about Veepee's trip out west...his strong interest in sex orgies, and his preoccupation with pornography. Wierwille was a phoney in every regard. Self absorbed, sociopathic, uncaring of the damage that he inflicted on people for his own gain...and when the skunk pelt was passed on to king okie, Wierwille faded into oblivion...the irony of course, was that Martindale had spent years smooching Vic's arse to get into that position and as soon as he wrapped the skunk pelt around his neck, he turned on Wierwille like a wild dog who thins out the pack by killing the old weaker dog. I am not sure that Wierwille was even a Christian...afterall, during Vic's "classes", Jesus was always the absent one.

Throw out the dirty bathwater, the baby and the bathtub... and then search your heart...the Christian message is a simple one...it's not about studying books, accepting church dogma or memorizing the bible...it's about faith and developing a relationship with God...and then living your life honestly, being motivated by love and trying to make a difference in people's lives. I no longer follow men...I seek to do what I believe is the right thing and I trust that the spirit of God within me leads me in my life. Be careful of who you pledge your loyalty to...the guys on TV are under pressure to make money and keep their ratings up...and that's not where my head is at. Maybe a local church can provide you with some substantial fellowship and encouragement. The body of Christ is a spiritual body...not an organization with a tax exemption...

We, here in America, want not only the gay community to be prepared but for everyone to be prepared.

Exactly!...The early Christians didn't have the new testament and they had to rely on their personal experiences with God and how the spirit worked within them. Imagine that!...The Christian message is simple and requires faith...being a Christian is not an academic endeavor. It's an experiential endeavor where we walk in love and apply our faith to life's situations...trusting in the Lord...not our concordance. People get bent out of shape trying to "put together" bible verses and study what they deem to be the "right stuff"...I guess that means that illiterate people can't know God?...Twi led everyone into bible worship and studying the owner's manuel instead of driving the car...The spirit leads us into all truth...not a bible class, a denomination, a guru or an academic approach to knowing God...

That was a nice story about Jerry Garcia and your experiences watching him play at the Fillmore (I saw him myself about 4 times )...but I fail to see any legitimate comaparisons whatsoever....From what I gather, you are saying that you were in the presense of both of them and failed to detect any evil...So what? Jerry was honest about who he was and what he believed...Wierwille was not. I spent a fair amount of time with Wierwille and I never detected any evil from him either...So what? A pattern has emerged through numerous testamonies that indicate otherwise. Wierwille was not stupid...he was a master conman who knew how to "play people"...he knew how to present himself as a "common guy" and also how to act like a modern day Moses on stage...I am convinced that he was always acting...He was always presenting himself in a calculated manner that he thought would achieve his goals...He was a grifter. and as a side note, I find it disrespectful to Jerry Garcia to compare him to the cornfield preacher in any way, shape or form...

...the days not over yet.

Let's not forget that the underlying theme and reason that this website was created was to expose the evils of twi...GreaseSpot is the "follow up" to WayDale which was started by a husband whose wife was sexually assaulted by Craig Martindale...as a result of these two websites, hundreds, perhaps thousand have been enlightened as to what was really going on in the Way ministry, at the top levels...These forums and various discussions have provided the necessary information for people to make informed decisions and to begin a healing process... People who were "marked and avoided"...thrown out and isolated and filled with guilt and grief...What we have done here is to give these people an opprotunity to mentally and spiritually rebound in their lives. It's a huge step to eliminate guilt...people who thought it was THEIR fault now realize that they had been conned by wolves in sheep's clothing. It's true that Wierwille is dead but the damage he did to people's lives continues to resonate and live on...both through the residual damage in people's lives and also by virtue of the fact that twi still exists and still continues to oppress people. I have no interest in "punishing" a dead man...but I AM interested in seeing people liberated from the bondage of twi There's absolutely no question that Wierwille was a sexual predator...Anyone who still defends him is ignoring reality. This is not a court of law, nor is it an excercise in the art of debate...it's people pouring out their hearts and speaking of their experiences. It's a cold hearted soul who insists on blaming the victims of this monster in order to preserve some kind of false image of this man that they precariously cling to...and in my opinion, defending Wierwille demonstrates a true lack of spiritual perception. The blinders have been lifted off...the scales have fallen from people's eyes and we now know what a selfish, self serving, dishonest, uncaring, drunken sleezeball Wierwille was...To continue to wear your "twi colored glasses" is harmful to yourself, to others and is patently dishonest.

We have a GreaseSpotter who's a dentist...where's Sudo?

What about the false doctrine of "believing equals receiving"?...the doctrine that screwed up people's lives and sent them into a tailspin of guilt and condemnation...did you,like that too?

Nor should you get a pass...I've had a belly full of you twi apologists who insist on reliving your wonderful times and all you learned from the great Wierwille...Hey...if it was so great, why don't you go back?...I'm sure that Rosie could find some use for you.

clinical proof?...bullsh *t.

So...should we all sit around the campfire and sing Koombiya?...sorry for your disapointment but twi was a harmful cult that screwed up a lot of people. You want to to talk about the good times you had and the great things you learned in twi?...Well, I'm sorry that you still live in a make believe world where you can look at your good times and ignore the horrors that occurred in other people's lives... This is a website that is designd to expose the evils of twi...some people insist on romanticizing about the "good old days" in twi...wake up! There were no good old days...you were conned...and from the looks of it, you still hold on to your "waybrain" like it is something to be cherished...makes me want to puke.