GrouchoMarxJr

...and let's not forget Paul Richards (I think that's his name)...the former Olympic gold medalist and Wheaties guy on TV... I was at hdqrts for corps week when VP pranced him out on stage to address all of us...I remember thinking at the time...Is this the best you can do?...The Wheaties guy?

I seem to remember that the glass floor in the center was covered with plywood to protect it or some such thing... ...if you didn't know it was there, you didn't know it was there... It was a very kewl building...I recall when the bod dedicated it...VP was there, others...on the front steps...a big ceremony...when a townie drove through and starting honking his horn with some guy hanging his bare arse out the car window... ...I thought that I would die laughing...you really had to have seen this with your own eyes...Vic's jaw dropped, Dorothy was aghast, the others were in shock...some young corps guys chased the car with righteous anger...me?, I hid behind the bushes so nobody would see me laughing. Jonny Lingo witnessed this also...but I guess he's taken a hiatus for awhile...

Yes...we have covered this before but it's worth repeating... ...I have given this great thought and if it's to be done properly, it should be done by the Coen brothers...their dark comedy would be perfect. I agree with Anthony Hopkins as VP Wierwille...Steve Buscemi should play Howard Allen, Col. Sanders as Uncle Harry, John Turturro as Don Wierwille, and Jeff Bridges as LCM... ...You could throw in Kathy Bates as Rosie...and maybe Ron Pompeil as Lynn...

Famous people that took pfal?...there were some marginally famous people...Mac Davis, Irving Fryer, Tony Collins, and a few others... ...God may not be a respecter of persons but Vic Wierwille sure was...he never passed up an opprotunity to recruit people who had money, fame and influence. He chased after them shamelessly and fortunately, most of them laughed in his face.

Fair enough...being a moderator is not a job that I envy...you gotta do what ya gotta do... No need for people to get personal and ugly...

I guess I wasn't one of the mudslingers because I'm still here... ...but I agree with exie...it's too bad the thread was shut down, there were some valid conversations going on...

Yeah right...IF you happened to be "blessed" by a visit from his holiness, it's like Rumrunner said...there was a buck in it for him or the chance to get laid... He didn't care about anyone that didn't fatten his wallet or kiss his big behind...he was a drunken lowlife. ...and make sure you break the mints into little pieces.

Ever notice how religious people are the most intolerant people in the world?... What gives anyone the right to impose their religious beliefs upon others? Seperation of church and state?... There's a difference between tolerance and acceptance...You don't need to accept something in order to tolerate it. Thomas Jefferson talked about the pursuit of happiness...and God is the author of freedom of will...why do so many religious people try to deny people, whose lifestyle does not meet THEIR approval, those things? In Salem, they burned witches...today, they persecute "homos"...wasn't that Martindales big thing too?

It's absolutely amazing to me that these guys used "Christianity" as a marketing tool to get rich and get laid... ...and Ham brings up a very good point...Vic left his children with NOTHING...all the money he scammed, the massive fortune that he accumulated, millions of dollars...and his kids got none of it...in fact, they got booted from the family farm! In order to avoid taxes, Vic left his children in the lurch....just as well...who wants to inherit blood money? What a selfish, self serving, egotistical lowlife he was...yuck.

So...going back to my original post on this thread... ...This girl killed herself because of what Wierwille did...If this thread does nothing else...I hope that it gives the name "Sandra Ann Sullivan" some meaning to those of us who were involved with twi. If this were the ONLY trangression of VPW, it would be enough to disqualitfy him as a legitimate Chriatian minister...but sadly, this is just an example.

Ah yes...it will be 33 years this July for me...when I did a full gainer off the high board into the cess pool of the false prophet... ...and spent 13 years dog paddling through the sludge of false doctrines, sex scandals, and money schemes...thinking most of the time that all was well... ...They fed me sh* t and told me it was steak...as Bob Hope might have said..."thanks for the memories"

...and it's all built into their "catch 22 doctrine"...the law of believing...This so-called "law" allows the "rule makers" to eliminate any other possibilities than what they are saying...it closes the mind and stagnates objective reasoning. Even considering other options means that you have failed... :( ...and who wants to fail?...Thus the cult gains compliance from it's glassy eyed followers...and then the victimization begins.

...and furthermore... :) ... ...Personally, I wouldn't want to see all pro-Wierwille posts to be eliminated...extreme callousness and disregard for the majority of posters here?...perhaps. ...but not all pro-Wierwiile posts!...When I see a pro-Wierwille post, it's like seeing the guy stick his head through the hole in the wall at the carnival...I can't help but pick up a few tomatoes and start throwing them...

Not really...If the government were to order the owner of this website to eliminate pro-Wierwiile posts, THAT would be censorship...If the owner himself decides to eliminate pro-Qierwille posts, it's called programming. The GreaseSpot Cafe is not a democracy...it's a privately owned establishment. Even as a radio station owner can program the kind of music he wants to play...and thus, eliminate other kinds...the same is also true here. You may disagree with a decision...but it's certainly not censorship.

Would the same be true of a woman who is raped while walking through the park? She was responsible for what happened to her because she chose to go to the park?...or maybe it's a "shared blame"? He was wrong to rape the woman and she was wrong to put herself in that position? ...or perhaps the guy who was mugged when he walked out of the building towards his parked car?...he didn't have to park his car where he did...he thought it was safe and made the decision to park it there...was it his own fault that he was mugged? ...Your logic falls flat and fails to pass the smell test. There is a certain "logic" that WhiteDove and OM both promulgate...it is also promulgated by the "Momentus" folks and by certain others that John Lynn has endorsed in the past. This so-called logic deals with the concept of eliminating the "victim mentality"...The problem with it is that it denies the reality that there ARE victims in this life...bad things DO happen to others through no fault of their own. Attempting to place the blame, even in part, on the victim's of twi is nothing short of complicity in minimilizing the evil that was done by the guilty...and the harm that they alone are responsible for. Did anyone hold a gun to their heads?...Of course not. When a person falls into a world of "group think mentality" via a cult, a gun pointed at the head is usually not necessary to enforce compliance. I think that the psychological state of mind of people involved deeply with cults renders them into a very vulnerable position and I think that it's self evident... and only people who have "other agendas" fail to recognize the obvious. ...

Thanks for the warning...I would be terribly upset if you put me on ignore...NOT!...

Just when I think my opinion of Vic can't get much lower.... I think that most of us here are compassionate, caring human beings...that's why it is so difficult to understand how a so-called Christian minister could be so callous and mean spirited towards anyone who stood in the way of his hedonism. He not only falsely accused Nave of murder but he was "taking advantage" of Nave's wife at the same time! Is there a man here who could do such things and justify them in his own mind??? ...I can still see him riding around on his Cushman, waving at the crowds, soaking up their adoration as he enjoyed his Drambuie buzz and was plotting his next victim as he scoped out the "flock"...is lowlife too good a word?

...glad I started this thread... I think it's only right to linger for a few moments (at least) on those who lost their lives and were personally destroyed because of the monster of New Knoxville...and he claimed to have more love than any of us! Love?...the ONLY love this man knew was the love of his own belly and his own lusts...he thought NOTHING of destroying another person's life when it suited his purposes. ...yet...there are still those who hang their hats on his "divine doctrines"...HA! Whatever happened to "you will know them by their fruits"??? I wish I knew then what I know now...I'd have taken a flamethrower to that place...

...If "Estimated Prophet" inspired you to go WOW...did "Ship of Fools" inspire you to leave twi?

Forget Vic and Howie for a moment?...try putting myself in the shoes of whom?...the scenario you describe is not the scenario that we are discussing. Perhaps it would be more accurate to say: ...try putting yourself in the shoes of someone IN AN AUTHORITATIVE POSITION SUCH AS TEACHER OR COUNSELOR being accused of causing someone else's suicide IN WHOM YOU SEXUALLY ABUSED...something that was never intended, BUT HAPPENED ANYWAY... I would never be in such a position to start with...but I can only imagine the feelings of guilt would be devasting...of course, from all indications, Wierwille never felt a hint of remorse for his actions...he was sociopathic in his victimizing of people.

That just about says it all...The guy was a huckster, a flimflam man... a con artist. His "research" doesn't exist...unless of course, you desire to read the books that Wierwille copied from...He spent most of his time getting drunk and chasing skirts. ...but what about God?...As far as it goes, I don't seek God through the filters of money making organizations. I think it's a personal thing...it has nothing to do with "study habits" but in how I live. ...and "research" just isn't part of the equation for me anymore.

I agree that too many religious organizations sweep it under the carpet...and yes, eventually, it all comes out. An interesting observation...the more authoritative the organization, the more likely they are to sweep it under the carpet. Twi was spouting off thet they were the ONLY ones with the right answers..."God's true ministry"...it then becomes difficult for them to admit "they were wrong"...it undermines their self-proclaimed authority as God's spokesmen...same is true of the catholic church. ...on the other, a church that is truly humble and doesn't elevate themselves and trusts in God rather than men...they seem to have an easier time dealing with these problems in an open and honest way...they immediately send the guy packing. ...I think there's a lesson in this somewhere.

The posts by oldies were predictable...His previous posts on other threads have established his "blaming the victims" attitude that he so insistantly holds on to... ...but his posts serve a purpose...because it's a reminder to all of us that we live in a society that does not always protect people from abusive situations...it underscores the importance of properly educating people and being on guard against those who close their eyes to these horrible situations. It should be clear to everyone that the top leaders of twi failed to conduct themselves as Christian ministers...Their abusive treatment towards others left thousands of people "damaged" and some of them lost their lives as a direct result of being involved with these men... The truth be told...the pile of money that twi sits on today came from an abusive system that cared nothing about the people who had given so much to build it...and they cared nothing about the people that died as a result of what they done to them... ...blood money.

Allright then...I agree but let's not mix apples and oranges... Taking sexual advantage of a young woman, under the auspices that you're doing "God's will", is risky business...if the girl is strong enough and stable enough, she probably will not commit suicide...BUT, there is a percentage that is unstable enough that this act will trigger suicide in them...and even if they don't actually kill themselves, what about the psychological damage done? So what is it?...Wierwille gets off scott free?...You honestly don't hold him responsible for his part in the girl killing herself?...Wow!...Your analytical views leave you in a very "cold place"...IMHO.

...Some powerful and heartfelt posts...The subject of suicide is intense and can often be personal. I think that life is a precious thing. It's fleeting and it's profound...To have disregard for another human being...to use them and not care what happens to them...watching them kill themselves and then moving on to another victim...This is the picture that I see... oldies...If you punch someone in the nose and they cry out...is it their fault for crying out?...I mean, they have freedom of will and should be able to control their own actions...right?...and if they DO cry out it was their own decision and therefore their own fault ...right? :blink: