GrouchoMarxJr

I think you hit the nail on the head with that remark...These splinter group leaders are in their element when they are pontificating, unchallenged...to their "followers". They will not stand on equal ground and dialogue with us on a level playing field. The arrogant position of "I'm right and you're not, I'm godly and you're not, I talk, you listen" was instilled in them years ago by Wierwille. They have learned how to make a living out of it... ...Talking to us here would be counterproductive to their bottom line...If Vinny were to post here, you can bet his followers would be popping in and reading every bit of it...including some things perhaps that Vinny would prefer them not to read...

Thanks folks! I appreciate the birthday greetings... :)

...I slipped out the side door and lit a smoke. No longer certain what reality was, I stumbled along the blacktop in a daze when suddenly I heard a groaning that raised the hair on my neck...looking up I saw an inhuman mass of distorted flesh, bleeding and oozing a green substance from various bodily orifices...walking towards me! Fear froze me in my tracks as I watched this monstrosity of decay drawing closer. Finally I realized it was Uncle Harry!...or, I should say, the dead remains of this walking ghoul. With sweat pouring down my face, I tossed my Lucky Strike on the ground and...

I live in Ohio and I've been hearing a lot about the problems in Mexico...much of it is word of mouth... I'm not in a position to know where the facts end and the bulls **t begins. It seems there are definitely some escalating problems with the drug cartels in some areas...but does the media have an agenda to demonize Mexico?...seems unlikely to me.

...That's because he never went to any schools, colleges or seminaries. His ministry is based on his twi training and he still hangs his hat on Wierwille ordaining him. If that's his gig, he can have it...sounds like it's a better paying job than hanging wallpaper.

VP Cornfield Wierwille was a victim in the same way that Charlie Manson was a victim...in other words, he wasn't. Wierwille was a predator. I don't care if his brother Rueben gave him wedgies every day when he was a kid...Vic had no excuse for his behavior...it was cold, calculated, and premeditated. He destroyed the lives of people for his own gratification. He was a worm.

...I am writing the first paragraph of the story entitled "my life in a cult"...each poster then adds their own paragraph based on the previous one...let the story be serious, funny, make crazy twists in the plot, whatever... try to keep your paragraph (not chapter) to a reasonable length...feel free to end the paragraph in midsentence if'd you like.... "My Life in a Cult" The crashing sound of a fist pummeling my door at 3am catapulted me out my sound sleep and onto the floor, eyes wide open, in a cold sweat. The voice bellowed "BE AT THE TOP OF WIERWILLE LIBRARY IN 10 MINUTES!!!" As I quickly threw on half wrinkled clothes, I pondered as to when this madness would end and why I was subjecting myself to this "training". At the time that I signed up, it seemed like the right thing to do but now I was having second thoughts. I had, for some time, been noticing inconsistancies in the behavior of those who were in charge. Something wasn't right. As I rushed out my door and towards the library, I recalled the afternoon before when I had been walking past Craig's apartment and looking in the window as I walked past, I had been shocked and stunned to see.....

Wacky!...Long time no see. I have to agree with waysider...but it's very nice to see you posting again.

What "power for abundant living" meant to me in 1975 and what it means to me today is totally different. At the time I first got involved, I didn't realize that I was being conned by a total rip off artist. Too bad that the old pervert didn't end up in prison.

...and there should be no doubt that when twi leadership condemned this letter, they were in effect, showing their cards, so to speak. Twi twisted scriptures to justify their hedonistic lifestyle...sex was certainly a big part of this.

Actually Ham, you're not entirely correct on this point...J.S. submitted his paper to Cummins (head of the research dept.) and Cummins, in turn, went to the top twi leadership with it...they decided that J.S. was possessed, and fired him and anybody else who read the paper...by doing this, a controversy started...which led to much unrest and division. I actually heard about this paper at the time of J.S.'s firing and the subsequent firings of many others...in fact, I even had my own copy at the time. What Cummins SHOULD have done is thank J.S. for his submission and then bury it...throw it into a filing cabinet somewhere and forget about it...instead, twi decided to make an issue of it and there were many at the time (by your account, certainly not eveyone) who became aware of this issue.

So you don't like Alan Ginsberg...gosh, I'm really devastated. Should I recant?...drink your V8 juice in silence if you so choose.

My two cents...Twi was an elitist organization. If you didn't hear it from twi, it was "of the world" (devilish)...this included music. I was told by twi leaders in the 70's that Jerry Garcia was "off the word"...as well as many other fabulous musicians. ego problems?...HA! The drambuie sucking sex predator had the biggest ego that I've ever seen...and from what I can tell, his taste in music was that of an Ohio corn farmer (if that tells you anything). It seems to me that twi leadership hindered the creativity of some very talented musicians...but what else is new?

..."And the MAL packs were gathered, two by two, male and female, until all were safely scattered abroad...hidden by the protective hand of Hank" quote unknown-

AS the turd whirls?...or could it be stated...as the sh *t flies?...I've yet to see a thread consigned to this new forum... ...perhaps this forum is set aside for those who have brown eyes?

Holy mackeral...I agree with White Dove!!! Never thought I would say that! As far as I'm concerned, as long as I am still breathing, I will speak truth against power. In the final analysis our personal integrity and what we believe in is all that we have. ...the rest is just fluff.

Perhaps that "moment" was when Wierwille hijacked the ministries of Heefner and Doop...maybe when he put the class on film... I believe the twi disease began at it's inception...when Vic started palming himself off as a mog...and yes, clearly geer recognized that his own future depended on his sanitizing Vic and building on the original con that worked so well. He discredited lcm who was deviating from Vic's doctrines and Vic's money making programs (wow program, roa, and pfal class)...lcm was a dumb okie with a big mouth whereas geer was a calculating sociopath who, it seems, had ulterior motives.

I will also add, that from my own experience, the day that I decided to walk away from twi...the day that I confronted them and told them all what I thought...was one of the most liberating days of my life. A breath of fresh air that is hard to describe. It was like carrying a 50 lbs sack of sand on my back for several miles and finally setting it down. As far as other people that I cared about?...ultimately they had to make their own choices, even as I did. Putting up with this intrusion into your life will eventually do one of two things...Eventually a person will say enough is enough and put the boots to them or it will turn a person into a compliant follower who no longer thinks for themselves... ...life is too short, I vote for putting the boots to them.

As waysider said regarding the theology and the behavior "the two are inextricable"...true enough and answers the rhetorical question by Ham...""what did the messege produce?"...It produced the only thing it could produce...sexual abuse and exploitation. In the final analysis, Wierwille, his theology and his behavior have become unified into a single thing...an honest consideration demands this and by the standards that I believe are right, he was a sexual predator who opened the doors for wide spread sexual abuse.

I appreciate your honesty and openess in disclosing this situation and I encourage you to remain strong and to dismiss the intrusion of your private life by these religious jerks. Every man gets up in the morning and puts his pants on and goes about his business...these people have NO RIGHT to intrude into your personal life. We all stand before God...not religious leaders. Life is hard enough...tell them to go p* ss up a rope my friend...and smile as you do it.

While life is short and fleeting, the principles that Jefferson wrote in this document are eternally inspiring. I had a lump in my throat as I listened to the reading of this fabulous document. Let it be known that as long as people's hearts hold on to the sentiments of this document, we shall be a free people....amen and amen.

As I said, Wierwille led people away from Christ and to himself. The book of Timothy sets forth the criteria for Christian ministers and Wierwille falls "WAY" short of even getting close to the standards that are set. It is quite clear from the bible that you cannot get good fruit from a bad tree...in spite of what you claim. His theology was hopelessly flawed and his behavior was deplorable...You use the word "fraudulent"...you mean as in the methods that Wierwille used when he plagiarized and claimed to hear God's voice?

The theology of twi oftentimes justified the immoral behavior. ...Was all of twi's theology wrong?...Absolutely! Why?...Because twi theology led people away from God and replaced God with men. Christianity is not an academic exercise...it's supposed to be about a practical relationship with God. Wierwille's theology was the antithesis to this...afterall, Christ was absent. Wierwille's sinful lifestyle was merely the bad fruit that came from a bad tree.

I think there was some of each... Some folks were already that way and others decided to become that way...and of course there were many who refused to become bullies...much to their credit.

This thread is about comparing the waycorps experience to the flying monkey's of the wizard of oz...not about "criminal guilt"...it seems that you have strayed ...and if you never went through the in residence corps program at any of the root locales, it is no wonder that you fail to understand the analogy or to see the connection...