GrouchoMarxJr

mj412...that's exactly what I'm talking about. Real friends don't cut and run just because you won't take a class or go to church with them. True friends stick. For a long time, there were a lot of folks who acted like my good friends until I disagreed with them. The next day, I was a lepor not to be associated with. That's the only time in my life I was ever treated that way. I am fortunate today to have many real friends. Our friendships are not conditional on what church you go to or what you believe. How refreshing it is to live in a world that is not clouded by insincerity.

When I started this thread I was honestly curious about what everyone thought about their corps experience. I didn't expect the same answers from everyone and I sure didn't get the same answers, and that's a good thing. I have no argument with those who found it a valuble experience. I enjoy the debate from both points of view, but honestly, there's no need for anyone to feel defensive about their position. I suspect that you're all really fine people. About the food...all I said was that my rations were cut in half. It WAS healthier food than what I was used to and the reduced portions were healthier for me too. Between the food and the running, I was in fabulous shape. I went into the corps weighing 190 and came out at 155. Today I am about 180...too many cheeseburgers and beer. The truth of the matter is that I could have gotten the same results following Jack LaLaine instead of veepee wierwille...and saved a lot of money in the process. I keep hearing about all the great friendships and even marriages that came about as a result of being in the corps. That's really swell but doesn't really have anything to do with the corps training itself. If you met your spouse or good friend while serving time in prison, perhaps you could expound on the value of your prison experience as well. Sorry folks, I just can't get away from the fact that twi leaders lied to us in God's name about some pretty important stuff. To me that overshadows any incidental nicities that I may have picked up while being in residence. It's sorta like the question posed to Mrs Lincoln after her husband was assassinated at Ford theatre. "Besides the other thing that happened, Mrs Lincoln, how did you like the play?"

Remember hearing "just shake the dust off your feet"? What this really meant was he's not gonna take the class, we won't be getting his money, therefore we have no more time to waste on him. The care and concern we had for people was always being "tempered" by twi leadership. True unconditional love was not allowed. There were always strings attached. When a corps leader would be reassigned to another area, all the "friendship, intimate conversations, and concern for that individual in his previous area would disapear faster than a porkchop in a dog kennel, once he was reassigned. It was all phoney and it was all contrived. The worse part is that we were all taught to treat people this way. Some of us did more than others. How many times did you see a twig coordinator really ream somebody in his twig out because the previous night he himself got reamed out by a leader that was higher up on the food chain? Now it was his turn. How many cute way girls went "witnessing" in a bar, ended up flirting her way into some guys life and then manipulating him to take the class? We were all taught how to put on our "believer face" just to show people how spiritual we were and how loving we were...sorry it was just an act. As soon as we realized that you were not gonna take our class or believe the same things we believed, we cut you loose and never thought of you Afterall, we needed to get that class together by the end of the month so that we ourselves would gain favor from the mighty ones in charge. It was all about looking good and making them money. A lot of the techniques were subtle but they were all meant to use people. Sexual promiscuity was not limited to just top way leadership. I had guys in my twig that were constantly trying to get some way girl into the sack. There were huge arguments about this issue as some of these guys would constantly quote the famous doctrine taught to the 6th corps that it was ok as long as you could "handle it". Well all these guys thought that they could "handle it" just fine. The methods of recruitment and of keeping the "faithful" in line were both manipulative and abusive. We were taught these methods and they became institutionalized . We used bible verses deceptively to get people to do what we wanted them to do. We lied to people and we used them. All so that we could appear to be a "growing" ministry ( which really meant more money). In the process of cult recovery, I think it's important to recognize the fact that we were not only victims, but that many of us were also victimizers. I did my share of manipulating people and I admit it. At the time I thought that I was doing the right thing but in the end, I found out differently. That's why, when I left twi, I went out of my way, seeking all the people that I had a part in recruiting and talked to each one of them. Thankfully, every person that I ever got to take the class has now left twi and I feel better about that. Both wierwille and martindale were master manipulators and screwed up a lot of people's lives. I'm thankful that I finally recognized the truth and was able to disassociate myself from both being a victim and from being part of a system that caused me to victimize others. It's a two edged sword. The twier who was victimized by some leader quite probably victimized someone else below them in the tree. As reprobate as both wierwille and martindale were, thousands of folks weren't taken advantage of by just two guys. It was a corrupt sytem and we all played a part in it.

Let's face it, conservative Christian doctrine relating to homosexuality simply doesn't "line up" with life's experiences or reality. I too was taught the hateful, frothing at the mouth, mean spirited, self righteous, homophobic doctrines of condemnation. About the demons that left one's mind void of judgement. I recall the tone in wierwille's voice as he called them the "lowest of the low". Sorry, it just doesn't float. I know plenty of scum bag heterosexuals who have no business being around children, let alone raising them. I also know plenty of gays that are kind, responsible, caring, loving, honest people who I'm sure would do a wonderful job at raising kids. Of course it works both ways. The point being is that there are good and bad heteros and there are good and bad homos. Sexual orientation should not really be a factor, anymore than the color of one's hair or what country your grandparents immigrated from. Unless of course we should simply eliminate the part in the constitution that seperates "church and state". Personally, I don't feel that "denominational doctrines" should be the criteria for civil law. The operative ideas in formulating civil law should include pluralism and tolerance. In reality, I am a heterosexual who is repulsed by the notion of two men "being involved". I find that homosexual behavior goes against my own preferences and sensibilities but nevertheless, as an American, I must insist on equal rights and equal protection for all citizens.

A little boy touches a hot stove and burns his hand. Did he get anything "good" out of the experience? Of course he did. He learned not to touch a hot stove again, which is a valuble learning lesson. In that sense, I did learn something from my corps experience. Thanks to the corruption and deception of so-called twi leaders, I now have a fully functionable bull.... meter. Perhaps having mud fights and sitting around a campfire, singing Kumbiya validates the experience for some of you, but for me, it falls short. When I consider that we were dealing with very important life issues, I cannot easily overlook the fact that these people were lying in God's name.

Not to change the subject but I just wanted to throw in my two cents about Deadwood. Love it! I can understand how some folks would find the language offensive but it doesn't bother me a lick. I was wondering the same thing myself about how authentic the use of those particular cuss words were during that time. I was amazed at the frequency of the useage of "co** su***r". Seems like they were going out of their way to use that one. Hickock is great as well as the others but the portrayal of the villian (can't think of his name) who owns the bar...scheesh! This guy is as nasty as they come. Just looking into his eyes makes your skin crawl.

For some reason I thought his degree was in physical ed. I know that he was a second rate football player who ended up getting a lot of splinters on the bench. From what I've heard, he was a huge disapointment as an athlete. So, if martindale was such a wizard at getting revelation, how come he didn't know that his "ministry" was about to hit the wall harder than Mr. Magoo playing Hai alai?

It's interesting to see how many folks responded to this thread and the strong opinions that have been expressed. It tells me that evoking the "waycorps experience" still hits a nerve for a lot of people. Catcup made some good points on how they failed to deliver on the corps objectives and also on the "bait and switch" tactics that twi frequently used. I recall signing up for a 4 year training program only to be told later that it was a lifetime comittment! Quite a difference I would say...and you were made to feel "unspiritual" if you questioned it. Twi made a big deal out of this "natural leadership" quality in people when looking for corps recruits. I often wonder how many folks with incredible faith, love, patience, etc. and a willing heart to serve were discouraged from entering the corps because they didn't meet some leader's criteria for "natural leadership ability"...which often times was nothing more than being popular because of an extroverted personality and a penchant for kissing the right a$$es? Let's face it, the majority of the people in the corps LOVED that green nametag and all the prestige that went with it. Whether by design or by accident, the corps produced a lotta big-mouthed, arrogant, bullies that enjoyed their special status in "gawds household". When considering the corps training in the context of understanding twi as a cult, It's easy for me to conclude that the whole experience was worse than a waste of my time. I believe the bad far outweighed the good. Can an evil tree bear good fruit? Actually, as I consider various "affiliations" that I have had over the years, I can honestly say that my time in a college fraternity (Tau Omicron Pi) was of more value to me than my corps experience. At least with the frat they had plenty of cold beer.

Actually it was Harvey Barth a distant cousin but he assured veepee (over several glasses of drambuie) that the snow on the gas pumps...whoops, that was another story wasn't it.

I know that I am not the only one who see's the correlation between martindales "eve is a lesbian" doctrine and his wifes involvement with Rosalie.

How do I do this?

...And as far as jet style packing, it came in handy when I got the hell out of that place. ;)-->

Yeah ex10, now that you mention it, I do remember Richard usually being in a "bad mood". He reminded me of a sulking kid that needed to be slapped. Unfortunately, the rest of us were not so indulged when we were having a bad day. As far as Linda goes, she seemed like a sweet enough lady, but then how many of us knew at the time that she was veepee's mistress?

Thank Gawd I never had to endure the okies version of "Eves a lesbian, I am the great one, give me your money class" Poor Oak spent all that time "working the material" from that class only to be shot down when he showed how stupid it was. Making this class was, no doubt, a big moment for king okie. He was replacing pfal and finally elevating himself to the position of the "teacher". He probably fantasized that all his minions would be clamoring for his approval on all they believed and did in their lives. His would be the FINAL word in any situation. Nobody would dare question the great man of gawd! And some day, sitting around the campfire, he would finally get to call all his followers..."my kids". The man should have been dragged off the podium and had his a$$ kicked in front of everybody.

No Johnny Lingo, I won't flame you. You're entitled to your opinion and afterall, I did ask for opinions. In hindsight, I don't think corps training was supposed to be about learning new things as much as conditioning people to be obedient. Too many components of the "training" were classic brainwashing tools. The actual content of the training was marginal at best in terms of anything scholarly or academic. All in all, it was a total waste of time...and as far as Richard Th*m*s goes, what a jerk.

I had been told all sorts of "amazing" things before I went in but once I got there I was terribly disapointed. I entered the 10th corps at Emporia and soon discovered that this "elite" training consisted of taking all the classess that I had already had 8 times each, trying to stay awake for about 3 hours of either "study hall" or someone trying to teach us how to pack a frickin' suitcase or how to shave "properly". My food rations were cut approximately in half and the sleep deprivation took it's toll. I must admit that with all the running we did, I was in pretty good shape. The brow beatings from martindale and his flunkies wore thin with me after awhile. The so-called "work program" was a total joke with so many people at Emporia and so little to do. They had me tightening screws on chairs for a month and when I finished the last chair I was told to do em all again. Several times I almost packed my suitcase and disapeared into the night...I should have. And we paid good money for this?

I left in 87 and when I first heard about this unbelievable "Eve was a lesbian" teaching, the Dr. Pepper I was drinking shot out my nose. I remember thinking at the time that this was possibly another projection of the extreme insecurity he feels about his own sexual orientation, or he was smoking crack. In either case, he had no business standing in front of other people, pretending to be anything other than the moron that he was. I's almost beyond belief that twi still doles out the same sophmoric diatribe from a defrocked minister who was disgraced in public. I never took this "class" and am curious as to how he "biblically" explained how the serpent took the form of a homosexual woman. Did he just say, "take my word for it?"

Oak, back in 87 (before the loyalty oath), at least half the corps I talked to knew ole craiggers was "off", even then. They would only admit it in one on one conversations with me and in hushed tones. The ones that thought martindumb was right were the ones getting a salary and the ones who were "close" to getting a salary. I'm afraid that many saw things through their "federal reserve note" tainted glasses. I also believe that when a lot of folks started walking away, there were others who stuck around simply because they figured they would "really" move up the pecking order once the dust settled and they were still "standing". One good thing that came out of ....ferbrains demanding his loyalty oath is that people had the opprotunity to hold on to their own convictions and make a statement. They had the opprotunity to "make the word their own" by walking away flipping him the bird as they did it. The spit suckers remained.

I don't mean to change the subject here but I feel that I need to address something that was posted by Catcup on page 10 of this thread. Catcup relates to us a story about an incident of sexual indiscretion that occurred which involved her roomate and R***** P*ny*rd. I am sure that many readers here probably know who the R***** P*ny*rd is, that she is referring to. I would like to clarify a point that came to my mind while reading her post. Catcup, you claim in your post that you knew RP and his wife and that you were surprised by RP's behavior towards your roomate. Well, I know RP myself (very well), and I was not surprised by your account at all. In fact, it made me question how well you REALLY knew RP. Using RP as an example of twi's corrupt system of leadership is really not accurate in this case. I understand that because of wierwilles attitude and behavior towards women sexually, a pattern of sexual corruptness developed among the twi leadership. I believe that there were probably many twi leaders who perhaps started off with good intentions and were corrupted by wierwilles example and attitude.However, this was not really the case with RP. RP was a fly in the ointment to other twi leaders wherever twi sent him. He operated outside of the 9 dots, so to speak. He was a party dude from the "old days". He liked to drink, smoke and chase women. Always did, probably always will. It was only his own charismatic personality that put him into a leadership position with twi. People would listen to him and he could not be ignored. I recall when he was one of the "slated teachers" at a limb meeting. He was scheduled to teach just before the "grand finale" teaching by the limb leader. RP set the room on fire, and when the limb leader finally came out to teach afterwords, it redefined the meaning of "anticlimatic". Rick was an outlaw who did things differently than he was supposed to and he p*ssed off twi leaders wherever he went. Catcup, I am not questioning your account of what happened to your roomate. I am merely asserting that using RP's behavior as part of the pattern of corruption taught by wierwille is not accurate. RP would have been chasing other women around no matter WHAT wierwille or other twi leaders did or said. He was doing it before he ever heard of twi and simply did not change. So why split hairs? Because it gives folks the impression that RP was one of the wierwillite clone stooges (there were many) who did what he did because of the groupthink mentality that swallowed up twi leadership. I don't excuse or condone any of RP's behavior. For gosh sakes, he did time in prison for pulling the old "Ponzi scam" on people. The reason I am taking the time to post this, is because I just wanted to set the record straight. Say what you will about the guy but he kept his individuality and independance in a situation when most didn't. Why mention this? Because in 1987 when people were running around confused and upset, RP was one of the few twi leaders who stayed true to his convictions and sat people down and gave them honest answers about what was really going on. Numerous corps came to him in tears, not knowing what to do and he gave them jobs, he gave them money, he let them live in his house. After walking away from twi, he poured out his life and did everything possible to help everyone he could. I will remember him for that, not for trying to get into your roomates pants.

When wierwille claimed to be pals with all these spiritual heavies, maybe he was referring to the people he stole from.

Good point Oakspear, veepee layed that "our ministry" crap on pretty thick. At one point I actually felt like I could show up there anytime and feel at home. I guess you could ask Doug M. how it feels showing up there these days. Anybody notice how king craiggers spent the whole letter trying to convince his followers that he was being spiritual and not carnal? Then he ends it up by calling em all "employees". I spit my coffee all over the screen. When you think about it, the whole shootin match was handed to martindale on a silver platter. All he had to do was keep the trains running on time and smile for everybody. Twi was a money maker when he took over the reins. What does he do? Kills the two biggest money making scemes that wierwille dreamed up...ROA & WOW program. Then he demands that people swear a loyalty oath to him. You gotta be kiddin' me! Does this guy get the moron of the decade award or what?

If owning a home eliminates an individual from from coordinating the fellowship, then perhaps twi should sell off all it's property and take to the streets. Or is owning your own property only wrong for the rank and file?

Just curious: Back in "the day", wierwille used to control wayproductions very closely. He forced musicians with imagination to conform to his strict formula for writing "spiritually correct" music. He stiffled originality, pulled the plug on individuality, and turned what could have been "from the heart" inspirational music into his particular form of nazi propaganda music. It was horrible to say the least. Who is in control of the form and content today? We know that Mitch Miller is dead. Perhaps some of these "old timers" in wayprod are still following the old wierwille credo of propaganda through controlled content?

To those "leaders" of twi who are reading this: Have you ever wondered what position you would be holding today with twi if martindale had not run off 90% of the faithful followers, which of course included the most experienced and talented people? My guess is that you would probably be driving the "honey wagon" at the ROA. ;)-->

A very good question and a lot of good answers. Let's face it, people are basically "herd" animals. They "need" to belong to some kind of group where they feel they "belong". I think this same inner drive is connected to folks who end up being co-dependant in a relationship. All through life we see factions gathering themselves into little groups. Fraternities, bowling teams, the Elks club, the Methodist church, etc. It's human nature to want to be part of something that makes you "belong" to something. It becomes unhealthy when a person NEEDS to do this in order to "feel good" about themselves. Twi took advantage of this inner human condition. Accepting their elitism, arrogance, and "we got all the answers" position came with the package. Instead of a frat jacket, we wore name tags. Instead of a secret handshake, we all babbled incoherant words out of our mouths on cue. Instead of loving people, we used people. Why did we quit questioning? Probably because we really enjoyed "belonging" to the group. Raising questions only put your membership standing at risk. Once twi convinced a person that an "open mind" was putting you in danger of being swallowed up by a demon, the rest was easy. In my opinion, the folks with "addictive personalities" have had the hardest time leaving and getting over it. Some of us (in thoses years) "held something back". In other words, I never really "sold out" to twi lock, stock and barrel. I tried to, but there was something inside me that would not allow me to give the allegience that was meant for God to people. No matter how loud numbnuts martinbumb would scream and shout, there was "something" deep inside that said...no deal. Twi took advantage of this