GrouchoMarxJr

God showed veepee the "third heaven and earth" in a mighty vision.

speaking in tongues for one hour is equal to getting 8 hours of sleep.

Satan killed Elvis because he knew that everyone would go out and buy his records instead of Stevie Kays new album.

I don't blame anyone for selling twi books on E-bay and making a few bucks but as for me...I burned them all on Uncle Hairy day!

In the overall scheme of things, preacher vic and his band of scoundrels don't amount to a pimple on a frogs a$$.

In the mid eighties when twi started making a big deal out of who was giving how much (on the dreaded blue forms)...I decided to start giving anonymously. When confronted by leadership, I asked the question..."If God knows what I'm giving and twi is getting the money, then what's the problem?" I got a lot of blank stares but no answers. I eventually received a call from the damn limb leader informing me that if I didn't "take credit" for my abundant sharing on the blue forms, that I would not be recognized and "esteemed highly" for my labor of "love". I informed him that I would take my chances on God giving the increase in my life and I would not worry about the accolades of men. He told me that I was making a "spiritual mistake". I then highly encouraged all in my home fellowship to also give anonymously, challenging folks to make their "abundant sharing" a personal matter between them and God, as to not live in the eyes of other people. When word of this got out, I was relieved of my twig leader duties. When I stood up at a leaders meeting and challenged them with "the word"...they all just looked at their shoes and remained silent. The next day the entire branch was notified of my devil possession and were warned to stay away from me. I guess threatening their system of appropriating funds was hitting a little too close to home.

Actually, I think RFR looks more like a diseased Janet Reno. Ever notice that when twi required us to give something to them, it was always something TANGIBLE?...but the "benefits" we supposedly received from them were always NON-TANGIBLE? Give us your money and we will give you "spiritual enlightenment", etc. The same worked in reverse also...The "consequences" for not obeying them were also NON-TANGIBLE. It's easy enough to say that someones possessed...can you say "applebutter"? The truth of the matter is that if there even IS such a thing as "devil possession", twi has lost all credibility in making that judgement. Their sophmoric approach to biblical interpretation fails to stand up to even a cursory glance. My guess is that if lcm is not possessed, then nobody is.

Twi discouraged it's members from giving to charitable causes. They taught us that giving to organizations other than twi was "good" but it was not "best". "Good" was the devils counterfeit for "best"...therefore if you gave anything to another organization, you were being tricked by the devil.

Oak...It was always assumed that the rev's had a "gift ministry"...while the non-rev's didn't. It was just one more subdivision of "haves" and "have nots" that twi utilized in order to control and manipulate.

I could be wrong about this but I think that when lcm began spewing his "grease spot by midnight" blather, he was actually quoting from a comic book. That's right, a comic book. During the 60's and 70's Marvel comic books featured the "Fantastic Four". One of the heros was a grotesque "orange guy" named "the Thing" He was prone to using such phrases as "it's clobberin' time" and "you couldn't scare a second hand Barbie doll", etc. One of his most used phrases was "you'll be a greasespot by midnight"! I'm sure that martindale related very much to the "neanderthal, always ready for a fight" metality of "the Thing". As lcm read the writings of Stan Lee, he probably said... "YES!" Often times when watching him spit all over his audience, spewing out platitudes of ultimatums and "flowery" language...I would be reminded of this Marvel comic charector. (I was a big fan in junior high). I'm quite serious. The greasespot by midnight thing really was used a LOT in Marvel comics. I'm guessing that lcm was HEAVILY influenced by Stan Lee's writings...knowing lcm's personality and low intellect...it fits.

Who remembers when Veepee used to introduce Howard Allen as the greatest Christian layman in the world? Isn't this the guy who was trained to catch Vics suitcoat when he tossed it offstage? Bus driver and pimp? I don't know, maybe because it's after 2am and I'm a little giddy, but this just really hit my funny bone tonight. Can you imagine? We believed it!! Looking back, if Veepee said it, we probably would have believed that Ermal Owens was the 5th Beatle too. Time to go to bed.

This should be good for some chuckles. Remember how twi leaders would often speak in superlatives, when it came to various aspects of life and culture. For example: Veepee would often refer to Howard Allen as the "greatest Christian layman on earth" or... I once heard lcm refer to Don Wierwille as the "greatest secular educator" on earth. or... I once heard Veepee refer to Don Williams (a second rate country singer) as the "greatest male tenor voice on earth"...roflmao....or.... Veepee referring to Claudette as the "greatest female gospel singer on earth"...she was good, but.....or The claim that Veepee has had the "greatest amount of revelation of any man since the apostle Paul" (like as if somebody had been keeping a tally over the years, LOL)...or... That the corps training at Emporia was "the greatest spiritual training anywhere on earth"...or... C'mon folks, I'm sure we got some real side splitters between all of us. Let's hear yours!

Oldies...I have no comment on your posts in this thread...if you haven't been enlightened by the previous posts, then mine would probably fare no better in persuading you. Shaz...thanks for the link...it really hits the nail on the head. Wierwille and martindale are perfect examples of this type of person. I recall an occasion when veepee was sitting with the 10th corps while others were discussing how great this "Tracker" guy, Tom Brown was. Some 8th corps had just returned from the "Tracker school" and were sharing about what a sharp guy Brown was in so many ways, etc, etc. Everybody was obviously impressed and the focus was on a story being told about how Brown snuck up on a deer or something, when all of a sudden Veepee leaps to his feet and shouts angrily, "DO YOU THINK HE COULD SNEAK UP ON ME?"...Suddenly the attention was back on wierwille, where he wanted it to be. He went on with some blather about how acute his spiritual senses were. Everybody ooohed and ahhhed and things were right again in wayworld. Scheeesh! -->

Well, I think it's safe to say that there was no "official" teaching to the 6th corps that made sex ok. I think it's also safe to say that there is no clear cut consensus on the "informal" teaching condoning sex. Different experiences for different folks. Undoubtedly, there was a biblical "interpretation" afoot, whispered behind closed doors by some people to justify what they were doing. Actually, the sexual abuse that occurred did not happen to everyone but the ones that it did happen to suffered dramatically from it. There were other types of abuse that were more common and inclusive of more people...such as losing control of their every day lives and being robbed of their homes, finances, time and right to make simple decisions that they should have been making. The old "group think mentality" that sucked everyone into a cult was abusive in it's very nature. I think perhaps Catcup took Goeys remarks wrongly and too personal and then became hostile towards him. I agree that folks should be accurate in what they say, people's reputations are at stake. However, from what I read, Goey was as accurate or more accurate than many posts I've read here. He was speaking on the authority of what he considers a valid source...good enough for me. We are all attempting to unravel some elaborate and ugly truths here and there's bound to be a little tension at times when someone gets too "close to the fire". I'm sure that when cooler heads prevail, an appreciation of people's true intentions can be seen more clearly...Peace!

Just thinking...I like it better you're way...they were all a bunch of lying dogs ;)--> Actually I have checked out many of Mike's posts. It's hard to believe that there are still people who "bend over" and take mr wierwilles false doctrines right up their old renewed minds. Personally I would rather drink the koolaid.

Socks...actually what you are saying fits right into this thread. It was mr wierwilles doctrine on "all sins are equal" that opened the door for a lot of the abuse that was dished out. I believe that people's perspective on sin was totally distorted. Adultry was no worse than telling a lie or perhaps driving 59 mph in a 55 zone. Sin was minimilized into a "whoops, oh well" type of attitude. Just say the magic words ..."Fatherforgivemeinthenameofjesuschristamen"...and presto!...everything is cool once again. Twi's teaching on repentance was a joke. wierwille loved to teach that repentance is what you get before you're born again and forgiveness is what you get after you're born again. That was about it...very simple to understand and also totally wrong. As I understand it now, repentance is a process that leads a person to "godly sorrow" first and then progresses into some real heart felt, teeth gnashing, fist pounding, type of experience that is soul cleansing and genuine. I've heard of people who enter into some kind of "crucible" in their minds and stay there until honest repentance occurs. I believe that true repentance is an intense experience and nothing at all like the drivel that veepee taught. This all ties in with the arrogant and casual attitude that was rampant in twi. Because sin was so easily desposed of, and so superficially understood, people never developed a healthy and respectful relationship with the Lord...oops, forgot, he was absent anyway. I think most twiers were more concerned with their "leadership" finding out than they were of God finding out. Of course that fits in with veepee (and later lcm) being the head of the body in a practical sense. The whole thing was a joke!

Hey folks...another refugee from the 10th...just checking in.

groucho is a pal of mine...I'll tell him to check it ;)-->

Dear Research Geek, Thanks for your thoughts. I understand what you're saying. It's unfortunate that when folks speak in generalities, specific facts that are relevant are often lost. I guess there's a tendency to paint everyone with the same broad brush and that's not fair. I know there were fine people with honor and integrity who were not a part of the corruption of which I speak. I apologize to anyone to whom the "shoe does not fit" that I have offended. In fact it's to the credit of anyone who was able to function in a godly manner within the context of that climate. After re-reading my own post, I would agree that my words are full of bile. That is by design. It does not necessarilty reflect my emotional state of mind but rather a calculated method in which I choose to communicate. It's not so much for me as for the person who reads it. I believe that it's effective in communicating my point of view. There are posters here who are very polite and convey their ideas in an "easy to be entreated" style...I'm not one of them.

Oldiesman...I seem to detect a connection between "bearing false witness" and the lock box. If they are consenting adults, why do they need to hide it? What happens if you put it in the lock box and then you are asked point blank by someone? Do you lie? Do you simply say "none of your business"? Isn't the lock box...lying by omission? This whole concept of the lock box was promoted by mr wierwille in order to cover his sexual escapades. There's nothing "Christian" about it. Saying that fornication is not as bad as adultry may be true but what's your point? Shooting my neighbor in the foot is not as bad as shooting him in the head either. I agree that wierwilles idea of all sins being equal is nonsense but it's nothing more than rationalization to try to justify fornication on those grounds...Of course I'm speaking from a "biblical" point of view.

Hmmm...I see a 42 page thread about vics lost teaching but who knows what you folks are talking about at this point... Anyway...if it's been lost for 17 years, why bring that sucker back now? Let sleepin' dogs lie.

Grizz...good point! There was a great burden lifted from folks as they left and it WAS noticed by others. Good to see ya again Grizz...Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

LittleHawk...you're more than welcome Al Poole...thank you for one of the most insightful and honest posts I have ever read.

My wow year was in 1976 in Chicago. As it happened to work out, my wow brother and I both had skills in construction. We subcontracted jobs as partners and made a bundle of money. Both my wow sisters worked and pulled their weight but the money that my wow brother and I made put us into a category that seemed to disturb the twi leadership dealing with us. We followed the rules, worked just 20 hours a week but together we were pulling down about $800 a week...EACH! The problem (according to twi leaders) was that we didn't get these jobs by "prayer and believing". We were actually accused of being supplied work by devil spirits in order to distract us from our mission. Looking back, I think that the local wow coordinators were actually jealous of our success. Everytime the area wows would gather for some "event", they would all be crying about how broke they all were. We would be sitting back smiling. We actually started slipping money to other wow families to help them out...and got reproved for doing it. We lived in a beautiful 4 bedroom apt near Lincoln park. We had done work for many of the local merchants and instead of taking money...we had tabs at restaraunts and different stores. We were rolling in dough and living the good life. At the end of the year we split up are saved assets. I got the vehicle we had bought for our work, my wow brother had his entire tuition paid for the waycollege of emporia, and we gave my wow sisters a bunch of cash. During the course of the year we were never held up as an example of success but rather we were swept under the carpet. Several times during the year we were threatened with being removed from the field if we didn't get our "priorities" straight. Of course we shut the mouths of our critics when we ran more classes than any other wow family in the state. I guess they were upset at our financial success because we were not in the same position of desperation that most wow families were in. We didn't need to "pull together and rely on God", We were not at the mercy of some corps leader who would condescendingly bless us with his marvelous words of wisdom that would lead us out of the wilderness of dispair. In other words, we didn't need the "blue book" in order to pay our bills...that seemed to disturb a lot of people. Oh well, the way I look at it...they were getting a free sales force to push their money making piffle class. They should be happy that THEY didn't have to pay me to push that crap.

I knew my little statement about the 6th corps "teaching" on sex would get some responses. I never meant to imply that it was formally taught as doctrine. I was not in the 6th corps, I was in the 10th. During my 13 years in twi there always seemed to be this reoccuring theme that would pop up, no matter what part of the country I was in, in situations, where invariably, someone would refer to the "fact" that the 6th corps was taught that sexual promiscuity is ok if you "can handle it" spiritualy. I don't know where this originated from but in my twi experience, I heard it often enough to become curious about this "alleged secret teaching to only the highly initiated ones". That was usually the disclaimer that was attached to this "mythical doctrine" when people spoke of it in hushed tones. Am I the only one who recalls this? Thanks to everyone for the amazingly insightful posts on this subject. Thanks to you too, Oldiesman...After reading your thoughts on this subject, I have a greater appreciation of my own diversity and open-mindedness. I'm flattered that you would take the time to disect my post and respond to each phrase with your calculated observations. I'm sure that it's a reassuring thing to be surrounded by people who agree with you and help you to "shore up" the foundations of your renewed mind. Even as some fish swim the open seas, others are content with the safety of their aquariums.