GrouchoMarxJr

Well...Anybody who goes to a church is associating themselves with a "distinct group"...that distinction is generally specified in a "Statement of beliefs" document. Every Christian organization that I have ever seen has their own distinct beliefs...otherwise, what are they doing, calling themselves a church? The fact that CES has embraced a good portion of twi's old doctrine is not a surprise, nor should it be. If you like the teachings of EW Bullinger and all the other writers that Wierwille stole from, you will probably like CES also. Of course they have added a few twists of their own to the doctrine, tweak it here, turn it there...but that also is to be expected. The real question that should be asked is, how does this "ministry" actually work? How do the "leaders" interact with the followers? Is there any manipulation, elitism, abuse, sex, financial pressures placed upon followers, etc. etc. etc??? I have gone to "church" often enough to know there is a MASSIVE difference between the way a "normal" church operates and interacts with their church members and the way that twi operated and interacted with their followers. Twi wasn't just looking for you to come to church on Sunday and tithe, they wanted your ENTIRE LIFE! Time, allegience, money, etc...twi bled people dry! Class after class, meeting after meeting, seminar after seminar...go WOW, go corps, get ordained, wear the right nametag, be a limb coordiantor, be a trunk coordinator...climb the waytree, be all that you can be! Now, is CES more like this, or are they more like going to a "normal" church? It's your life... ;)-->

I think it would be interesting to see JAL post here. Let him respond to the various criticisms of CES. He would be leaving the safety net of a controlled CES meeting. He would not be revered as the "answer man", as he is, perhaps by the followers of CES. He would be on equal footing to state his opinions just like anybody else here, but I doubt there will be too many ooohs and aaahs. Some of us are no longer impressed with the need to start and promote our own organization. The body of Christ seems to be able to survive, even when certain non-profit, Christian corporations do not. C'mon John, tell us all how buying your books, tapes and attending your meetings, will bring us closer to the Lord. Tell us also that we no longer need to call you, John or Mark... "reverend" anymore. What's in a title anyway?...just as long as we send you the dough and continue to look to you for the answers to life...right? Just don't start promoting Momentus here, or I will get pi$$ed off and let you know about it. Other than that, c'mon in John...the water's fine.

Danny hit the nail on the head. Twi totally misused "reproof". It became a component of control. Reproof was to the twi hierarchy, what bullets are to a soldier. It was their excuse for telling people what to do and to delve into their personal lives. They used it as a weapon against people. Egomaniacs used it to justify their "spiritual supiority", Meanspirited leaders used it to humiliate and hurt others, it was THEE excuse for telling others what to do. "Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual restore such an one, in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted". spirit of meekness? Never saw it from twi leaders. They were too busy trying to rip you a new a$$hole. Besides that..."ye which are spiritual"...that just disqualified the whole bunch of em as far as I'm concerned. My advice to anybody who is approached by a twi leader with "reproof"...knock them down on the ground and put the boots to em'.

Grizz...I know a fair amount about Momentus but have never taken it. Anybody who asks me...I tell them to run from it like the plague. You don't have to step in front of a train to know that it's a "bad decision". Without looking to far, it's easy to spot a red herring like this one...The "hold harmless" clause is un-Christian and they claim to be a Christian based group..."red light should be going off"...they are secretive about the training and have that elite smugness about the whole thing..."another red light should be going off". They claim a life changing experience in just 4 days..."this red light should be blinking". There are people whose lives have been destroyed because of this training (some are actually in mental institutions! "This red light should be strobbing!" There are numerous church's, cult awareness groups, and mental health experts who warn people of the extreme danger in getting involved with this thing..."At this point, every red light in the room should be glaring into your eyes!"...and to boot, I have personally seen it REALLY mess up a whole lot of folks. That's enough for me...I can say with a clear conscience to anybody...DO NOT TAKE MOMENTUS! But you say...even if it would do that person good? YES!...even if it would do that person good...it ain't worth the risk for what you "might" get out of it, IMHO. With all due respect to The Evan and Ex10 and others, I really do question whether this thing does ANYBODY any good...It's possible that a person could THINK that it did him good, but...did it? At one time I thought that pfal was the greatest thing since sliced bread...but I was mistaken. Who knows what REALLY happens in the subconscious mind after taking Momentus? What seems to be "emotional resolution" and "cognitive enlightenment" may actually be a little green man crawling into your mental hiding places...who knows?

Addicted to the faith? Hmmm, well, they're addicted to SOMETHING...that's for sure.

Pfal promised to change your life in three weeks...Momentus promises to change your life in four days. As Leonard Cohen once said..."Everybody's talking to their pockets, everybody wants a box of chocolates and a long stem rose...everybody knows". As P.T. Barnum once said..."there's a sucker born every minute". There's nothing more annoying than talking to some punk who thinks his "4 day seminar", somehow, is superior to experiencing adult life for 35 years. It's the same concept as "get rich quick"...with the emphasis on "quick". I'm sorry, life just doesn't work that way. Perhaps the Momentus people should consider hiring Ron Pompeil to help with the marketing.

I can't help but see a similarity in extwiers joining splinter groups...and junkies switching to methadone. I guess some folks just "need" it.

Spoiled?...I never lost my faith but I was angry with God for about ten years. That anger ended about 8 years ago and today I consider my twi experience to be valuble in the sense that I now have a well developed bull.... meter. I, like others, do not affiliate myself with any church or group of any kind. My faith is a personal journey and needs no validation or reinforcement from any institutions. I prefer it that way. C'mon George, don't be so shy...tell us how you really feel.

I noticed the same thing with the "I'm soooooooo spiritual" attitude. The whole thing started for me, when I reluctantly agreed to attend a CES based fellowship meeting...by the time the meeting was over, I didn't know if I was at a CES fellowship or a Momentus fellowship. Curiously, I watched, as the Momentus grads seperated into their own little click, while the rest of the CES gathered into their group. The recruitment for the upcoming Momentus class was intense...they laid it on me heavy..."life changing", "more powerful than pfal", reaching levels of spirituality never before imagined", "able to leap tall buildings in a single bound", etc. I had never heard of Momentus before and because I exhibited some curiosity, they were on me like hungry dogs on a meat wagon. I was genuinely interested in what this thing was about but had no intention of taking it. I asked a lot of questions about it over a period of time from different "grads"...the things that I began to see were scary. The common thread amoung them was that they all espoused to have reached great heights in spiritual understanding and deliverance...but, they were all (everyone of them!) NEUROTIC as HELL! There was one man in particular who had sat through Momentus several times and was part of the "team" putting together the next one...we became friends of sorts...he confided to me that he was preparing to confess to his wife that he had had several affairs, to repent from his heart and come clean. He claimed that his guilty conscience of deceit was keeping them from getting as close as they could be in their marriage...repenting this sin to her was the only right thing to do, he said. I tried to talk him out of it...I told him that he was selfish...that he was going to put her through a lot of pain in order to make himself feel better...I reminded him that his affairs had happened nearly ten years ago and were over, and that it would be better to suck it up and simply live with it and not assault his wife with this information. He scoffed at me and told me outright that because I was not a Momentus grad that I simply did not understand. Well, to make a long story short...about 4 months after he "repented his sins" to his wife, she left him and filed for divorce. He was devastated...he lost his wife, his children, his job, his home and his dignity...this all happened because he was living in "Momentus world". Before somebody else says it, I will...this really happened because he was an adulterer. But nevertheless, I believe that in this situation, his Momentus training led him to make a very wrong decision. I think his "common sense" was clouded by this "doctrine of repentance" that he picked up in his Momentus training. The boy was not thinkin' for himself anymore, if you know what I mean. Some of you may disagree with my analysis of this situation and that's fine...just my opinion.

Yikes!...Steve, that's quite a detailed explanation about the lifeboat excercise...it matches pretty close to what was told to me by a gal who took it in Houston about 5 or 6 years ago. I suppose the thing that bothers me the most is that they claim to be a "Christian" based group...Obviously, they are not, and at the very least, that calls into question their basic integrity as an organization. Wordwolf asked me a question concerning the secrecy and "hazing" that I experienced in my college fraternity. I was in a college fraternity in upstate New York back in 1969! For those of you who are too young to remember, Have you ever seen the movie "Animal House"? I was not in a fraternity based on scholastic achievement or any other high standards...I was in the off campus, party fraternity...These were the days when nobody thought about sueing anybody over fraternity hazing...There was no oversight of any kind from anybody! Things are different today. Another point to consider...The Momentus folks readily admit that this class is not designed for those who are emotionally unstable and having difficulties in their lives, however, I can see a conflict in the recruiting process...when you consider that it is imperative to "fill all the seats" in order to recoup your financial investment...there is a potential to compormise on the screening process. Case in point...when a certain Momentus class was being put together in Houston about 5 or 6 years ago (the one I declined taking)...There was a certain woman who was initially told that she had was too emotionally unstable and should not take the class...as the "deadline" approached, the good folks running this training program, changed their minds about this woman...suddenly, she was told that they had "reconsidered" her situation and that they now thought that it would be a good idea for her to take it. She took it...she had a nervous breakdown within 2 weeks after becoming a "Momentus grad"...Had to fill the seats dontchaknow...it also explains the SEVERE hostility that was directed my way, when I politely declined to take it. Projecting an image of wanting to help people, when actually it's a money making scheme, puts the whole thing into a category that I call...A SCAM!

I want to thank everyone for their honest answers and for the obvious efforts made to clarify and relate personal experiences with a cooperative and kind attitude. In all honesty, TheEvan's and Ex10's experiences are quite a bit different from those related to me by others. I gather that the Momentus training has been "modified" or at least is presented differently, depending on where you took it, who administered it and what year you took it...and of course, the most important factor... WHO took it. Again, some benefitted and others did not. I guess this whole subject came up because of the JAL letter that was re-printed. I've never taken Momentus (and never will), so I am limited to conjecture and speculation. I do find the whole thing curious and must admit, am suspicious of both the techniques employed and the motives of those at "the top" of the Momentus organization. Be that as it may...let each decide for themselves as to which flavor of Koolaid to drink.

In an earlier post I made a comparison to the Momentus training and eating LSD. I was actually serious. LSD was an "enlightening" experience for many and a "nightmare" for many. A lot of it depended on the "state of mind" of the individual consuming it. Although I would never recommend it to anyone, I do think there is a potential for good in it, under the proper circumstances. Therein lies the similarity to Momentus. Whether it's good or bad for someone, my objection is the "hold harmless" form that must be signed. It has been explained to me that the "surprise element" of the training, is essential in order for it to be effective. Sorta like...if I jump out from behind a tree and yell "BOO", it would scare you a lot more if you did not know that I was behind the tree...When I was a part of a college fraternity, our initiation was kept secret from the new "recruits"...the secrecy element was actually more effective in un-nerving people, than any other thing we did to the new pledges. OK...but is this REALLY a Christian ministering technique? The training sounds a lot like "new age psycho- therapy" and I find it offensive that they do it under a Christian banner. ...and again, NOBODY has answered my question: If Momentus is recruiting folks into a "traing program", and keeping the details a secret, are they morally right to avoid responsibility for those who are harmed in the training? I understand that when a person signs a "hold harmless" agreement, there is a legal out for the Momentus folks...but if they are indeed Christian...should not they be morally responsible? I am not even addressing the issue of whether it is a "good" thing or a " bad" thing. I simply would like to have my question concerning responsibility answered.

Ex10...I make it public because his letter was posted publicly...if Jeff is misrepresenting JAL by printing his letter against his wishes, then shame on him. I somehow think that it was posted with JAL's approval...I could be wrong, let's ask Jeff. Hey Jeff, is JAL upset because you posted his letter without permission? If not, he's fair game. I understand that JAL is a personal friend of yours...believe it or not, he's a personal friend of mine also...but friend or no friend, I will not remain silent when I see elitism and egotism rearing it's ugly head...manipulating trusting people, in order to have a "flock" that reveres him.

Don'tFenceMeIn...You make your point well. I don't disagree with anything you said...in fact, it's the "we're right and everybody else is wrong" attitude that turns me off the most...it a carry over from twi. That attitude makes no sense to me at all, it's when you get caught up with "intellectualizing" God instead of experiencing God...then, the ego gets involved and presto!...religion at it's finest. I also agree that it's inappropriate for a Christian minister to slander another minister over a doctrinal issue. Lcm made a career out of doing that. I don't think that JAL is the only extwi leader to be guilty of that. I guess it shows how deeply rooted this notion was implanted by both Veepee and lcm. That's why I don't associate with any splinter groups. They act as if you believe differently than they do, you are worthy of, if not contempt, then certainly pity...you are somehow not quite as spiritual as they are. I often wonder how the first century Christians managed to do the things they did, without the benefit of the new testament to "rightly divide"...or without a non-profit corporate structure that provides a "safe haven" for your tithes and an alternative to having to think for yourself. The fact that I acknowledged that JAL was a benefit to many wayfers, in terms of accurate information of twi corruption...should not be confused as an endorsement for his splinter group. As DFMI stated, "...everyone does not always get everything exactly right all of the time..." I would take it a step further and say that NOBODY always gets everything exactly right all of the time. This, of course, would include any individual or organization such as CES, Jehova witnesses, the catholic church, or the glee club. It's the self righteous, arrogant attitudes of those who claim to have superior knowledge, that annoys those of us who really do.

Well, there ya have it...some people took it and had a great experience, others are in therapy. When I was MUCH younger, I had a great experience with LSD...but I sure wouldn't recomend it to anyone. My question is this...where do you draw the line, in determining who can handle it and who can't? If there's a chance that somebody is going to have a nervous breakdown or that there marriage might fall apart because of Momentous...is it really responsible for these "Momentous recruiters" to be herding people into these classes...after making them sign a release form to not hold the Momentous folks responsible? Especially, because much of the classes content is secret...which means that you're signing a paper, absolving them of any responsibility, when you don't even know what they are going to do to you...and they do! Should not they be responsible if they hurt someone?...signing a piece of paper may free them of a legal responsibility but not a moral one. I mean, afterall, aren't these folks supposed to be Christian? I have nothing against psychotherapy when it's administered by professionals and people know what they are getting themselves into. It's when they disguise it as being "Christian" that they are given a different litmus test. Could you see Jesus asking someone to punch a pillow repeatedly, screaming mommy, mommy?

Don'tFenceMeIn...Sure, he tried to recruit as many extwiers as he could...just like a number of ex-leaders did, who started their own splinter groups. Does he want to be the leader?...I think he does. Does any of that make him evil? I think not...there's nothing wrong with a man wanting to be a Christian leader and have people follow him...but the devil lies in the details. The question is...does JAL (CES) manipulate and use people like twi did? Do they coerce money out of people and sexually abuse them? Is it a scam, like twi? Those are the real questions that should be asked by people considering CES. JAL has admitted to and apologized for the wrongs he did to people while in twi...that's a hell of a lot more than most of them have done. All I'm saying is that at one point in time...around 1987...JAL was the ONLY source (at least that I knew of), of a top twi leader, who was giving any answers to what was going on. Perhaps later, others joined in...but initially, it was JAL who reached out to members of twi with the information. What was his motive? We can speculate about that all day...was he jealous of lcm because he was passed over for the presidency? was he just blowing the whistle on twi because he had been fired and he wanted to take everybody with him and finally be the "leader" of his own group?...or was he sincere, feeling an obligation to at least explain to people what he knew and then try to help them by continuing his ministry? I guess you can put any spin on it that you like. Apparently, there's still plenty of folks who didn't get "enough" while in twi...that's why there's plenty of splinter groups...personally, I keep my distance from the whole bunch of em'...

Yeah, Bo is the one who turned JAL on to it. I guess some folks just love the punishment. About five years ago I was being pressured into taking Momentus from some exwayfers I knew...I checked it out on the internet and found several negative things about it. One thing that I did notice was that all the Momentus grads that I knew (about 6) were neurotic as hell and had nothing but problems in their lives...The time came when I politely told them that I was not interested in Momentus...They started screaming at me "WHAT HAVE YOU GOT TO HIDE?"...I'm serious, this really happened! I walked out and never had anything to do with the lot of em again. I don't generally post links...I'm appreciative of those who do, there's a lot of valuble info...I'd rather just put things into my own words. Momentus is an emotional rollercoaster ride. They make people dependent upon "the group", they send people off into a mental frenzy of trying to make amends for every lousy thing they ever did in their lives...They confuse repentance to God with repentance to other people...it's a combination of primal screaming, Korean brainwashing techniques, and a host of other clever parlor tricks...this same scam was being pulled on people under a different name...Tocini or whatever his name is, gave it a new name, put a thin veneer of Christianity on it and found a whole new market to buy his product. The only thing I would say to the folks who run these Momentus classes is a quote from the great Frank Zappa..."Jesus thinks you're a jerk".

Although I don't agree with everything that John has done or is doing since he left twi, one thing is for certain. Back in about 1987 or thereabouts, when most of the twi leadership was scrambling to cover their a$$es, John stood up and did the right thing. If I remember correctly, at the infamous "clergy meeting" when Geer was doing his nazi thing...only three clergy had the guts to stand up and walk out...John was one of them. John was also there to help people and give them answers when the rest of twi's "leadership" disapeared into the woodwork. John's not a bad guy really, just full of himself a little but he means well. There were a lot of things about twi that JAL carried over into CES...his save the baby but dump the crappy water schpeil illustrates that. I really did check out CES when I first got out of twi (before I regained my senses), it seems like twi without the hierarchy breathing down your neck. A "kinder, gentler" version perhaps but still too close to the original...gave me the willies....and I really do like John.

I've known JAL for many years...He told me personally, that he has never had a real job before and that teaching the bible is the only thing he knows how to do. If that's the ONLY reason that he does what he does, it's a sorry a$$ excuse for being a "preacher". This diatribe about choosing to be a victim...I believe this is part of his suspicious affiliation with "Momentus". You've all heard about Momentus, haven't you? All three (JAL, Graeser, Shoenheit) have been involved with it, have promoted and defended it. I guess because of all the negative results that have occurred in the lives of "Momentus grads", CES has distanced itself from it in recent years. Momentus is a revised version of "Springlife", which is a derivative of the old EST training. It's a high pressure "seminar" in which people are reduced to screaming fits and deep sorrow. This "seminar" promotes a twisted and perverted view of "repentance", amoung other things. Momentus training employs classic brainwashing techniques and "switch and bait" gimmicks. I personally know of marriages that have been destroyed because of it and numerous folks who are still in therapy after taking Momentus. One of the big concepts promoted by the Momentus folks is the idea of choosing not to be a victim... I like others, checked out CES years and years ago...watching all the old waybrains hugging and crying at the CES meeting I attended, reminded me of a heroine addict who just discovered methadone. Same church, different pew. No thanks John...but you might consider talking to LCM, he has recently discovered what it's like to find a real job for the first time.

OK...I'm really trying to figure out what the point of this thread is. There's been some sound opinions as to the nature of anger and how it effects us...but this post was started by Zshot with a specific complaint about "certain posters" expressing themselves in a way that Zshot describes as "overheated" and finds to be "disturbing". Zshot then goes on to "very strongly consider going to a mental health professional". Hmmm...In the old days, we used to just say they should have their "head examined". Was this an attempt to throw an insult at someone under the guise of "offering a suggestion" in order to help some poor soul?...or were you honestly making a mental hygeine diagnosis, based on what somebody posted? MY point, is why should you give a second thought to somebody else's "anger" in some post, allowing it to "disturb" you? If I honestly believed that someone that posted here needed some kind of professional help, I would either E-mail them privately or mind my own business. I will let you in on a secret...there are certain posters here that I DO NOT READ! It's like George Carlin once said, "there's two knobs on the radio, one turns the channel and the other turns it off". It makes little sense to me, to read posts that disturb me and then make a public announcement of that fact...and I would never be so presumptuous as to actually think that I know the mental condition of anyone who posts here.

Yeah, I agree with the Moshmeister...I find venting on some of these forums to be somewhat cathartic. Besides, when I log off of the GS, my mind is instantly elsewhere. This is a "compartment of my mind" that I leave as quickly as I enter. There ARE some folks who are thin skinned and take this place AND themselves far too seriously...and there are probably some who have issues with anger in their lives...anger management would be a tremendous help to those with anger problems. Of course, anger can also be healthy at times, when it is both justified and kept under control. Most of the posts that I see here seem to indicate adequete control...I guess there's a few that are "over the top" and I sometimes wonder about that individuals mental hygeine. There are a variety of different forums here...some are of the "bunny rabbit" nature, others are a bit more caustic...let each poster get involved with what is "right" for them. If ya can't run with the big dogs, stay home on the porch.

Hi Jeff...hope you're doing well. Tell John Lynn that he's welcome to come in here to "chat" with us anytime...of course, we are not sitting quietly in our seats, listening to him pontificate from a pulpit. He would be sitting at a normal table in a normal chair, here at the GS cafe. We are not his audience, but he is welcome to converse here like everybody who follows the rules. Same goes for Shoenheit and Graeser...but if they're looking for the "lost sheep of twi", tell em to keep looking...someplace else....Oh, they might rope in few strays, but they better be ready to face those who are not impressed with their "biblical research".

My retirement plan is called death.

Why is it that everytime somebody wants to leave the GS, they have to give a big speech about it first? Sounds to me like somebody is taking themselves too seriously. The folks who run this site have always been fair and honest in their dealings with posters. If somebody wants to leave because they can't make personal attacks, well, don't let the door hit ya in the a$$ on the way out.

"...there ain't no devil, theres just God when He's drunk." -Tom Waits