GrouchoMarxJr

Sadie...thanks for responding to my question. It was a sincere question. My experience is similar to yours...I was always taught Jesus the son and didn't even know what the trinity was until I got into twi...I am not a trinitarian. I was just curious how others dealt with that particular doctrine when "sorting" through Veepee old teachings in their minds. :)-->

Mike...I still have all my original pfal books and many other books that wierwille "authored". I am aware of the fact that twi did not function in a way that was compatible with wierwilles written books...that's true, I will concede that point to you. I believe the "waytree" doctrine was introduced into the mainstream of the "ministry" sometime in the early 70's by J.T. and his unbelievably boring seminar..."The way tree"...Of course this was masterminded by wierwille...nothing like this could have happened without his close scrutiny. I believe that when wierwille came up with his waytree scheme, he compromised greatly on what he had written in his earlier books...just like he compromised on his earlier teachings against tithing...when he saw the growth begin...he changed his teaching to "Christians should be prosperous"...a scurrilous little pamphlet that laid the foundation for twi's financial empire. (it was always the FIRST assignment in pfal...get it?). Wierwille actually stole some halfway decent material from some fairly decent Christian writers and thinkers. The problem was wierwille lack of charecter...He would twist the scriptures to suit his own ends. I mean, I actually think that the works of E.W. Bullinger are valid...I just don't like the "spin" that Veepee put on a lot of the things that he stole from him as well as others. Wierwille's obvious lack of originality was apparent when comparing his works against those he stole them from...much is reproduced verbatim. He even stole the names "Maggie Muggins and Henry Baloko"... Whenever wierwille would venture into the realm of "something on his own", he invariably looked a buffoon. His over simplified approach was both naive and sophmoric. When critiquing his "works" from a scholarly perspective, he falls far short of having even a modicum of any depth in his writings. I maintain that if wierwille's doctrine is of interest to anyone, they would fare much better by going to the several serious writers that wierwille copied from. Why? Because wierwille's "packaging" of these other men's work was seriously flawed in a number of ways. First of all was wierwille's tendency to oversimplify...his inability to comprehend much of the material that he was stealing becomes painfully apparent when making comparisons of wierwille versus those he stole from. His understanding of certain aspects is often flawed or skewed. Wierwille included many WRONG doctrines when he put his "class" together and wrote his original pfal books. Believing does not equal receiving...etc., etc. Wierwille's selfish way of thinking led him into a spiritual cul de sac. He was void of proper judgement in determining biblical interpretations and he lost his credibility as a Christian leader. Charecter flaws and spiritual perception are not independant of each other. The man cannot and should not be trusted...and that means his "works" should not be trusted either. Wierwille should never be compared to any of the 1st century apostles, or to any of the serious Christian theologians, or to even a legitimate Christian minister. He was none of those things...he was a grifter. He was defrocked from his own church for having sex with one of his flock and he never stopped this behavior. Mike...do you honestly think that God would give this great "revelation" to a man of such low charecter? You cannot ignore the grievious sins of the man and simply point to his books...life doesn't work that way. The man and his books are interconnected...the writings in his books are an extension of his mind...a mind that is contaminated by dishonesty, greed and lust...and therefore CANNOT be trusted. If there is any value in wierwille's writings, it's because of those he stole from. The easiest way I know to seperate the truth from the error in wierwille's teachings, is to simply take wierwille out of the equation. Go back to those he stole from and examine their works...whatever is missing of twi's doctrine in THEIR writings was probably the error that wierwille added. I know you worship veepee and piffle, but in my opinion, wierwilles's written works are a cheap, inferior, knock off of something that was done by someone else...much better. So Mike, if you want to keep watching for snow on the gas pumps, that's you're priviledge.

Oldies...none of that is fruit. All you did was post a laundry list of wierwille's doctrine and then claim that just knowing this doctrine is the fruit... You don't need a big nose to smell bad baloney.

For the most part, witnessing was something that most people loathed but were willing to pretend that they liked because of the associated guilt. Many corps took it seriously and were good at recruiting...others simply made sure that the rest of us were witnessing, while they attended to something else "more pressing" at the time. I thought that the folks who genuinely liked to go witnessing were "weirdos" and I usually tried to avoid them. Some of the most dread filled experiences of my life include going out "witnessing"...especially door to door. It took every fiber of my being to not feel like a Jehova witness...it was painful. When I was a wow...it was a year filled with guilt. We never spent 8 frickin hours a day witnessing! I would slip into a neighborhood bar with my wow brother and we would spend 4 hours drinking draft beer and shooting pool...on the way home we would eat a box of breath mints and try not to slur too much when we got home for twig. ;)-->

I find it most curious that so many folks here still adhere to wierwille's most controversial and heretical doctrine. It seems that if so few Christian writers back up wierwille's claim, and so many extwiers still adhere to this doctrine...hmmm, can anybody say "waybrain"? I think that "wierwille's most significant contribution"...as it was described by many twi leaders..."Jesus Christ is not God" was a joke to say the least. The book was an embarrassment...sophmoric at best. It was an indication, that when wierwille was not plagerizing other people's work...his own work resembled something written by a high school freshmen. Why would any intelligent Christian toss out centuries of theology, written by some fabulous minds...and replace it with the anomaly doctrine of a slow witted cornfield preacher? I mean, c'mon, the whole book was about 100 pages of double spaced, one syllable words...I could have written it better myself. I'm not saying that I personally agree with the doctrine of the trinity...but I am curious as to how and why so many of you still cleave to what wierwille taught on this subject. Besides giving credibility to wierwille, what other reasons do you non-trinitarians base your belief?

Mark S...I'm flattered that you re-posted my humble thoughts on this subject. ;)--> Mike...No, I am not religious. I am a Christian...and it seems as though you have given me a choice of 2 things...either admitting that I lied (which I did not) or getting into a theological debate over wierwille's teachings. Let me ask you a question? Why should I allow you to define the parameters of my responses to you? Mike...you erroneously attempt to seperate the actions of twi from the doctrine of wierwille. I'm not sure that is a good idea, if you are really looking for truth. Why? Because the bible says that you will know them by their fruits. What is the fruit produced by wierwille's teachings?...I'm not talking about the emotional "good times" that people had when wierwille was still running things...I'm talking about the long term effects that adhering to wierwille teachings have produced in people. The fruit that wierwille produced was rotten fruit that led to his own ego rather than to Christ. The absent Christ...Because twi declared him to be absent, he was not allowed to participate in the functioning of twi. In fact he was replaced by the "written word" which really means he was replaced by wierwille (wierwille, afterall was the ultimate authority in twi for what the written word said), therefore, Veepee became the head of the body. Wierwille taught that speaking to Christ was sinful and that it was a trick of the devil when Christians tried to speak to their lord. That is why wierwille used the old testament dynamic in defining himself...MOG! He saw himself more like Moses than any Christian leader in the new testament...Of course that's why LCM considered himself to be like Joshua. It's true that wierwille taught that we can each have a one on one relationship with God...but in practice, he would not allow it. The "waytree" was designed for each person to go through a chain of command...this was a direct counterfeit to the true body of Christ, in which each goes directly to Lord for direction...instead of the twig coordinator. In other words, wierwille version of the bible was ..."Christianity without Christ"...sorry Mikey, he led people away from Christ...I stand by what I said.

Perhaps the best way to deal with an abusive boss, is to simply confront them. Boldly look them in the eye and let them know that you are not being paid to listen to anyone's meanspirited or nasty tone. Tell them that you are happy to follow directions and to do your job properly but that you are not willing to take verbal abuse from anyone...Speak with boldness and authority and make sure you look them in the eyes when you say it. There's a chance that you will soon be looking for another job, but it's equally possible that you will gain the respect of the boss, and he will treat you differently. If he doesn't, treat you better...maybe it's time to find a new job anyway. Life is too short to put up with needless crap.

Let's see now...There seems to be certain folks who INSIST on kissing the hem of wierwilles garment. Look...the guy was a lying scumbag. If you feel it's worth even 1 minute of your time to "consider" his theology...to study the "great man's" teachings...go for it. I can't imagine spending any of my precious time on this earth trying to seperate the truth from the error that some cornfield preacher pasted together from other Christian writers. You like pfal? Read Bullinger's "How to enjoy the bible"...it's where wierwille stole his material from for the first 8 sessions of his "class". Why give this plagerizing bastard any credit for anything? Mike...he lied to us in God's name. He hurt countless people with his obsession for booze and illicit sex. His false doctrines have put thousands into mental bondage...and he turned people AWAY from a relationship with Christ, substituting himself for the absent savior. You should be ashamed of yourself for supporting such evil...did you say you were a Christian?

Mike says: "All the biblical writers were sinners..." I understand that all the biblical writers were sinners, but Wierwille should not be counted amoung them because one of his sins was that he pretended to be a biblical writer. I believe that the bible is quite clear concerning the behavior of Christian leaders. Are not Christians advised in the bible to be wise in whom they choose to follow? ...of good report and all that...Wierwille trashed his ministry and therefore his credibility, when he decided to violate the "principles of God" in order to satiate his own belly. If he was right about anything he taught, it was because Bullinger or some of the others that Veepee stole from, were right. Wierwille was a perfect example of a carnal Christian...he confused godliness with gain...his own gain, that is. It's doubtful that Wierwille EVER received any "revelation", and the only spirits he truly understood, came from a bottle. The guy was a grifter and a sleaze. He was a dirty old man who bedded down young girls and then called them his "kids". ...But yet, the wierwille apologists continue to worship their "father in the word"...kinda pathetic, don't ya think?

After he was totally disgraced, defrocked, and thrown out...I believe he got a job somewhere in Ohio, as a delivery boy.

You make some good points Roy...Definitely following Wierwille instead of Jesus Christ was a "fundamental error" that should have tipped us off from the gitgo.

As far as I know, nobody here has put their hand on a bible and sworn to tell the truth, in order to register at GS...In fact how can anybody even PROVE that my nextdoor neighbor isn't typing this and pretending to be me?

Invited to study at Oxford...yeah right...let me tell you a stowwwry about Veepee getting an invitation. When Ronald Reagan was elected president, Veepee claimed that he was "invited" to attend the president's inaugeral ball. In fact, he claimed that he was "hand delivered" an invitation from one of Reagans aides. I recall this incident quite well...heard it from Veepee's lips myself. Well, he wasn't quite honest...Actually, what happened was, when Reagan was elected, they sent out several hundred invites to the ball...the main ball, that is. They also sent out several thousand invites for the smaller balls that were to take place in various parts of the country...for folks who didn't make the "main ball list"...the one that Reagan, himself was to attend. The smaller balls that took place were attended by numerous contributors, prominent business people, various clergy, and other supporters. They sent out thousands of these invites...THAT's the invite that Veepee got...and on top of it all, he had to ask for it!...I was told later, by someone who knows, that ANY "clergy" who asks for one of these invites to one of the smaller balls...will receive one...Veepee attended and nobody there knew him...he was treated like any other spitsucker that weasled himself an invite. He ate his roasted chicken and slipped out the back door...somewhat humiliated. Wierwille had made it sound as if the president was asking for him, like an old testament king calling on the prophet...LOL! So, what's my point? The point is that Veepee was an incredibly insecure man who constantly needed to pretend to be some "great one". He lied on numerous occasions to further this myth. He allowed other people to lie in order to maintain this myth...snow on the gas pumps? When considering his "doctor" status, it would be totally inconsistant of wierwille NOT to lie about his credentials! It would be a major shock is Veepee were to be found telling the truth about his miserable self!!! Pikes Peak bible college? What a joke...the guy was a grifter and a con man...wierwille was a doctor, just like he invented the hook shot...

I suppose there are plenty of people in this world like Martindale...usually we commit them to mental institutions. The problem arises when people like this are allowed to speak into a microphone.

Because the "...complete collection of his teaching record" was a compilation of all that he stole from other writers, Veepee never did "make it his own" in practice. What came out of his cornfield piehole was a far cry from how he lived his life. Wierwille the hypocrite, was a liar, cheat, womanizer and a drunk. The level of intolerance he had for others was profound. Wierwille was both anti-semetic and racist. I recall Veepee telling the story of how his brother was killed in a car accident by a black guy...he claims that it took a long time for him to "get over" his negative feelings towards blacks. I assert that he never did get over it...He ordained Lonnell Johnson and kept Claudette on center stage because he saw an opprotunity to expand his marketing base... He hated Jews even more...During a couple of Advanced classes that I attended, he promoted such books as "Myth of the six million" and other anti-semetic publications. He often claimed that it was a mistake to make Israel such a close ally and to give them so much money. He claimed that the "so-called" Jews in the world today were not genetically, the Jews of the bible. He claimed that the Jews were no longer God's "Israel"...or His "chosen people".It was easy to see his "proud German heritage" come out when he was on one of his anti Jew tirades...I even heard him say once, that Hitler was "right on" with a lot of his ideas! No Mike...Satori is right...you are more of a specimen than a spokesman. To hold on to the myth of Veepee is disturbing to a rational mind and to promote the "complete collection of his teaching record" is nothing more than an attempt to extend the damage that these harmful anti-Christian doctrines have already caused. Although I find you to be a source of amusement, I am also concerned for your mental hygiene. Have you considered any professional help?

I remember hearing a teaching from LCM sometime around 1980 or so...where he went into a rant about how we should use nuclear weapons against our enemies and wipe them off the face of the earth... I imagine he must really like George Bush...whoops, that shoulda been posted in another forum. ;)-->

Such drama!...these delusional, egotistical, morons actually believed that the future of the entire human race depended on them... -->

Several years after I left twi, I ran across an old friend who was a recent "outie" at that time...we started talking and he told me about this song...I just started laughing and laughing...During my years in twi, we sang songs that had words like..."Christ is coming", "We are sons of God with power...","Turn your eyes upon Jesus", "Precious Lord", etc....but..."I wash my feet in the blood of the wicked"? Holy crow!...Martindale was consumed with hatred...did he burn crosses when they sang it?

Didn't they have a billboard up near hdqrts?...Hmmm, maybe not. ;)-->

That's right InvisibleDan...and we can all thank Craig Martindale for pulling the plug on that bathtub filled with rancid swamp water. Had he played his cards right, they could have owned 5 or 6 colleges by now... king okie successfully dismantled everything that Veepee had put together...what WAS he thinking? -->

Accredited?...ROFLMAO! :D--> :D--> :D--> Sorry toto, but you can take that waycorps transcript and put it in the outhouse, right next to the Sears catalog.

From the sounds of things, she's dug in there pretty well. How come Rosie doesn't want the chalet? Is her pad nice? ...and just what does Donna do all day? Let me guess...at about 8am, her housemaid has breakfast ready for her, this is followed by her morning walk through the woods. After reading the morning newspaper and catching a little of CNN, she looks over some "memos" that were faxed into her office. After her midmorning latte, she jumps into the golf cart and heads out to meet Rosie for lunch. After her poached Salmon with Bernaise sauce and a crisp garden salad, she pecks Rosie on the cheek and heads back for her afternoon nap. At about 3pm she arises from her nap and prepares for her rubdown and time in the steambath...After a romantic dinner with Rosie, she is escorted back to the chalet, where the two of them pour a little red wine and slip into something more comfortable.... Feel sorry for?...yeah, my heart bleeds purple p*ss.

I've got no argument with JAL's doctrine. I mean, go to one church or go to another...They all have similarities and they all have differences...If I wanted to criticize a "Christian" organization's doctrines, I would probably start with the Catholic church...but that's just me. My concern is how Lynn's organization effects people's lives. Do they manipulate people and motivate them with fear? Do they put an undue financial burden on folks? Are the followers of this group devoting much of their time in recruitment efforts? Is there a hierarchy of authority? Does JAL's group employ the same "cult tactics" that twi did? Are people being sexually abused? In other words, is it a cult or is it just another "Christian group"? I don't think it was necessarily the doctrine of twi that caused so much damage in people's lives, as much as the structure of the "ministry" and the way that people interacted. (I do believe that much of twi's doctrine WAS very harmful)...but, nevertheless, the harmful doctrines had to be put into practice before people got hurt...and it was the beloved "waytree" hierarchy that was the beast with fangs. The control of people...their finances, where they live, who they associate with, their sex lives, etc, etc, etc. So again, my question is how does JAL's organization operate and effect people's lives? I know if you ask them, they will say that we are all "blessed"... -->. But...how does it stack up? When examining Lynn's group from an honest and critical comparison...is it more like twi was, or is it more like a church?

Yeah...I met Mel in 1976...we were wows in Chicago...me and Mel and Penny and Debbie. Mel married Dorothy, she was a wow in the other family...Mel and I were partners in a remodeling business during our wow year...everybody called him "work like hell Mel"...really liked him...good guy.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't D.M. approach Veepee and put a bug in his ear about her marrying LCM?...and then didn't Veepee actually "suggest" to LCM to marry her? Did I dream that...or did that actually happen? Yeah, D.M. has always been a very calculating conniver...she always covered her own a$$...but how does twi justify letting her live in the chalet? Lcm poured in millions in security and state of the art whatever...the place is huge! It's really beautiful and should be used for something more appropriate than housing the defrocked minister's ex-wife...errr, I mean "seperated". I mean...REALLY! Maybe the corps director and his staff should be in there, with some offices and a steady flow of people in and out. Don't the innies mumble under their breath about how the corps chalet is being wasted on Donna? I think that there should be an "official" campaign, to remove D.M. from the corps chalet. Put the b*tch in one of those old trailers they keep on the back forty...that's where trailer trash belongs anyway.