GrouchoMarxJr

To all the Wierwille apologists...make no mistake about it, Wierwille made a LOT OF MONEY selling "God's word". Is it wrong to make a lot of money?...of course not...but is it wrong to make a lot of money selling "God's word"?... Back in the prosperous 70's and 80's, twi touted it's financial success like a scouts badge of honor...Emporia, Romecity, Gunnison, the developement of hdqrts, Tinney, N.M....private jets, a Scottish castle! Are you kiddin' me? Veepee was on a roll. Say what you want about the old grifter but in the final analysis, he was a topflight salesman...he was the Ron Pompeil of religion. If I were a con man working the circuit, Veepee Wierwille would be my idol...But the question remains...Where does it say that you can sell "God's word" and make millions? Jesus never bought any properties...neither did Paul. Oh, I get it...Veepee was more like a levitical priest that collected tithes!...yeah that's the ticket. I mean, should a son do less than a servant?...I still remember that beautiful Harley Davidson we gave him...what a scam!

Oldies claims that he's just trying to make sense of it all...ok, here's a parable that might help to enlighten him: A man was crawling through the desert, dying of thirst, when he spotted someone sitting under an umbrella, sipping iced tea. The thirsty man crawled up to the other and asked him is he could have some of his iced tea...the man replied, "no, but you can have some water out of the well over there if you give me a dollar"...The man pulled a dollar out of pocket and crawled over to the well and drank. A short time later a beautiful maiden came stumbling along, also dying of thirst. She asked him for something to drink and the reply was the same, "you can drink from the well if you give me a dollar". The maiden handed him the dollar and turned for the well...only the man wouldn't let her proceed. He knocked her to the ground and forcibly raped her. When he was finished, he kicked her in the head several times until she was unconsciencious. Sometime later, the first man to drink from the well, overheard a group of people talking. They were talking about how evil the man was, who raped and beat the woman...they were saying that he was worthy of contempt in every regard because of what he had done to the woman...Suddenly the man spoke out in defense of the rapist...People were dumbfounded! How can you defend this brutal abuser? The man replied and said..."The water he sold me was good". End of parable.

Congrats to all those who made the "honor roll"...My motto continues to be: Even the smallest dog can lift his leg and pee on the tallest building.

Isn't it ironic...At one time anybody could walk onto the grounds and they were always made to feel welcome. When Martindale was booted, Rozilla had the perfect opprotunity to go back to an open door policy and begin to act like Christians again...but no, she chose to follow after the hardheartedness that was "prevailing". Makes me wonder how much of Martindales policies that she was responsible for to begin with...Who would of ever imagined that a hate filled dyke would end up running the whole thing... -->

oldies...I'm not exactly sure what you're talking about when you say "throw the baby out with the bath water"...I think that both you and John Lynn are guilty of over rating what twi actually offered by way of it's teachings. To me, the "word" represents such values as love, faith, trust, compassion, forgiveness, honesty, gentleness, caring, giving, integrity, kindness, goodness...shall I go on? Much of the new testament deals with "behavior". There's not much emphasis placed on splitting doctrinal hairs and arguing about the "4 crucified" or whatever...The message of the new testament is to have faith and endeavor to incorporate godly behavioral traits. I don't know about you, but I was taught all these traits LONG before I ever heard of twi. I am thankful to my mother and father and all those who provided examples of godly behavior for me growing up. In church,I learned the basic "Christian doctrine" of salvation LONG before I had ever heard of twi...So, to equate rejecting "twi doctrine" and rejecting "the word" as being the same in invalid. Just what did they teach that made them singularly significant? What part of your "baby" cannot be found or was not found by most of us without any help from twi? If there was part of their doctrine that WAS true...well, that's swell but I think you're over rating them. The "word" is something that is intangible and either lives within a person's experiences or it doesn't. You can't lable it with earthly credentials and then assign the credit to some corporate entity. So Veepee taught you some cool stuff...big deal, who cares. It has nothing to do with Veepee or any other person...it has everything to do with your own personal faith or lack thereof. To assume that the rejection of twi as a whole means rejecting "the word" that they purportedly taught, is both arrogant and wrong.

I hear ya George...I plan on seeing this movie as soon as I finish my Momentus training, that is, if my twig coordinator will allow it...but then again, I don't want to miss my weekly psychoanalysis appointment or my practice sessions at "spoon bending"...decisions, decisions...

I left in 87 and was the first one in my branch to walk...I was a twig coordinator at the time and within a couple of weeks, my entire twig walked also. I stood up at the weekly twig coordinator's meeting and told everybody I was quitting and why...the next day I was marked and avoided. That didn't bother me too much because it was like the boss telling you that you're fired AFTER you already quit. ... I remember at the time, being aware of the fact that I was the first one out of about 60 people (branch) that was walking away...and I felt pretty good about myself because of it. Within a couple of years, the entire state had just about walked away...That was always the thing with me...I always refused, in my mind, to committ unconditionally to twi...even when I was in the corps, I always reserved for myself the right to leave twi anytime I felt it to be appropriate...When I left, I never felt as though I were leaving God...I felt that twi had left God.

Being a Bills fan is not easy this year...0-4 !

What do you suppose Veepee would say if you told him that his children and grandchildren are not welcome at TWI hdqrts? So the Wierwille farm now belongs to Rosie and Donna?...The way, living in love...Where's Elaina's sequel?

A Special poem on the anniversary: THE WAY All these years you took a stand, to teach us God's true word. We trusted you to hold it high, until all the people heard. But then the rumors, then the facts, we couldn't let it pass. To think our trusted shepard screwed his own sheep in the a$$.

I'll bet that in that line of work, it can be a REAL exciting adventure. ;)-->

I think that a key in understanding twi-1 was that it grew suddenly and it grew quickly. There was a large influx of young people that all came in at once during the early and mid 70's. A large number of these young people were hippie types. The lifestyle of these youngsters bordered, at times, on hedonism. That's why the early ROA's were somewhat unstructured and were more reminiscient of a rock concert than anything Christian. Wierwille's followers were not ready, at that time, to become the disciplined corps that Veepee so wanted...it took time to instill discipline and structure. These same hippies all got haircuts, began washing windows and became the 6th-10th corps. By the time Wierwille had processed a few thousand of us through the corp, twi was ready for more structure and discipline out on the "field". There was an evolution in the development of the whole thing. I believe that Veepee always wanted the military type discipline but was smart enough to know how far he could push people. Martindale on the other hand, was clueless when it came to knowing how hard and how far he could push people. I don't think there was much difference between twi-1 and 2 when it came to intent. In both cases, the structure and the workings of the cult were the same...centralized control. What Veepee started, LCM simply continued. What made the biggest difference between 1 and 2 was the doctrinal changes. Where Wierwille emphasized "grace", Martindale emphasized "legalism". This eventually changed the general attitudes of the followers from warm and accepting...to cold and suspicious. It went from a friendly Christian, extending the right hand of fellowship, to a hardassed corps guy extending his middle finger. So, I agree with Oak, in that "Martindale was more open about his position". Martindale could give his pitch, but he could never close the sale...that's why everybody told him to stick his loyalty oath in his arse. Veepee knew how to play the crowd perfectly. That was the big difference...style. Content was about the same. But because of this "evolution", there was a difference between 1 an 2, in a practical sense. The early unstructured years were much more enjoyable than the later years of heavy legalism.

...I doubt it. I agree with Mosh.

Yeah...when you think about it...say there were 7 people in a class, at $200 a pop...$1400 profit for twi and the cheap bastards couldn't even pony up the equipment for this huge money maker! They got us to work for free...and to supply all the equipment for free!...while they hauled in some major bucks. No wonder they could afford to buy all those properties.

The differences between John Kerry and George Bush are distinctive enough to make a clear decision. Kerry represents "business as usual"...a liberal senator form Mass. who plays ball with rich and powerful lobbyists like most politicians do. On the other hand, Bush represents a radical right wing agenda, which includes, aggressive "empire building" and repression of freedoms here in America. Thankfully Kerry won the debate and has almost caught up to the oil pimp in the polls.

There were stories of people who took whole states with them when they left twi...especially in the late 80's when the great purge happened. Some folks walked silently away by themselves, while others went out of their way to encourage others to leave. When I left, my twig left with me and I went out of my way to contact each and every person that I had ever got into twi...I can honestly say that each person that I ever talked into twi is now out. A close friend of mine was a state coordinator and when he left, he took the entire state with him...while all of this was happening, he actually received death threats from a member of the bod, whose name I will not mention... How did your leaving twi impact others?

That's right dabob...I remember quite well when Veepee made all those statements about his family standing with twi. I left in 87, so I missed Loyboys reference to it in his letter concerning Geer...interesting that he eventually is convicted by his very own words. A false prophet by every standard.

...Sorta like when you hear an old song that you haven't heard in years...suddenly you are singing along, word for word...even when you can't stand the song! It has burned it's way into your circuitry. Each session of pfal has it's own triggering mechanisms, that will reopen the passageways into cult hell. A stroll down memory lane, if you will, only Freddy Krueger is your tour guide. Thanks to the skinny tied cornfield grifter, we all have, as a permanent reminder, an emotional scar, similar to Captain Picard's when he finally escaped the borg...standing on the observation deck of the Enterprise, staring off into space, he finally understood the value of his individuality. ;)-->

She started the 10th but dropped out...she re-entered into the 12th. I last saw her in Texas in about 1986 I think...but I know she wasn't there long...sorry.

The actual "ministry" may be shrinking and dying but twi's investments are doing just fine I imagine. With the multi millions that they have invested, they probably have a steady income for themselves. The "work of the Lord" is not really a major concern because of all the money secured during Veepee's hayday. I mean, how much was it? 44 million plus whatever they have in their "credit union"? Who owns all that dough? If it's just the members of the bod, I would say they are fairly "comfortable" without having to "Go, Stand and Speak", if you know what I mean. ;)-->

It was a cold, dark October night. The full moon illuminated the evening sky and the wind whistled through twisted branches, sounding like a demon's hiss. Suddenly dominitrix Donna emerged from the shadows, her black stilletto heels and whip silhouetting against the corps chalet. Crawling slowly behind her, making obscene grunts, is her slave, "Pig Rosie"...

...just kiddin'

Daryl...only in your fantasies.

J.P. can speak for himself if he wants to. ...and that's NOT an invitation.

Back to the subject... Session one was always, and I mean ALWAYS, the time that the main hook was thrown...and you all know what I'm talking about ;)--> CHRISTIANS SHOULD BE PREPOSTEROUS ! This doctrine of convienience emerged from the cornfield preacher at about the same time that they incorporated and decided to make a living by running a cult. Contrary to his previous teachings, der fadder in der werd decided that Gawd decided to make an exception to the old testament law of tithing and apply it to Christians...sorta. I mean, could you do less than a servant? What a "hook line"! C'mon, give the old adulterous drunk some credit here...he was a master grifter! He could talk a hungry dog off of a meat wagon...and when it cam to talking you and me out of our money...he was the master of disaster!...and it all started with that little red book...FIRST assignment of pfal...the very first frickin' thing that twi hit us with was...gimmee your dough.