GrouchoMarxJr

Evan...How would you define "rejecting Christ"? Would that mean failing to observe his lordship on a daily basis?...or on an hourly basis? Does rejecting Christ simply mean "sinning"?...or is it a decision to "unbelieve" the word?...Our thoughts come in a linear fashion...some thoughts may be "Christ affirming" while others may be "Christ rejecting", depending on what time of the day it is...is salvation like playing musical chairs?...Whatever your last thought happened to be before the bus ran you over?...I'm not trying to be sarastic or a smarta$$...This is an honest question.

Kit, Thanks for the reminder...I salute all vets and am thankful for their service to our country.

...They call it a prairie town? Didn't anyone tell them that Emporia, Kansas is the former home for the illustrius waycorps training? The Spiritual elite? My goodness, such a significant spiritual movement...and they totally overlooked it!... The thing I remember most about Emporia is the smell of the meatpacking plant...Remembering the foul stench that filled the air helps me to forget the REALLY unpleasant memories of that city. ;)-->

This is a very powerful thread. It touches on something that is both sensitive and important. Galen says..."To pick out one form of adultry and hold it as seperate and a disease to mankind is also wrong" That sounds like waybrain to me. "Every sin is the same to God"...isn't that what wierwille taught? No Galen, not all men are attracted to teenage girls. Are the girls pretty? You bet they are...but there is a HUGE difference between finding a girl attractive and being attracted to her. Every now and then I enjoy eating a good apple, but I am never tempted to pick an unripe one off the tree...and of course there is a difference between a 16 year old and an 8 year old...I think we all know the difference between a child and someone who can pass a fake ID...My concern is for children. To protect them from the monsters that stalk this earth...and if that means putting up posters in public, then lets make the posters big. When you consider the damage that is done to a child when they are sexually molested...the betrayal of trust...the corruption of the innocence...the long lasting hurt and the dysfunction...Yes, I DO hold this crime as seperate! A child molester should consider himself lucky that he even got out of jail to begin with...paid for his crime? not hardly. Didn't Jesus single out this crime also, as especially bad?...something like..."Woe unto them who hurt children" ( literal according to Uncle Hairy). For someone who is normally quite progressive when it comes to social issues, I find myself turning into a "redneck" when it comes to this issue...If they are gonna be turned loose from jail, maybe we should "nut em" first?

During my 13 years in twi, bad council was the order of the day. Everytime I would follow the "council" of some twi leader, it would turn out wrong. I recall an incident where a branch leader beat the hell out of his wife. She had black eyes and a fat lip! When I saw her, I advised her to call the cops...about an hour later, I get a call from the limb leader, giving me the old "that the ministry be not blamed" schpiel. The whole thing got covered up. Sometime later, she left him. Honestly, it seems that every damn thing they ever "counciled" me on was wrong.

Wierwille always played the "humble workman of the word" role, admitting that he was always open to correction on his research...NOT! I know of several occasions when people would confront him with some of his errors and he would go ballistic! There were times, like Whitedove mentioned, when Veepee would announce a "correction" of sorts in some minor doctrinal detail...but I think that a lot of that was contrived, just to give the appearence of "on-going" research. Probably the biggest doctrinal change that Wierwille made was when he changed his position on tithing. This was just before the huge influx of young people began...Wierwille saw the need to generate some income for this growing organization...and many of the old timers, including Peter Wade, walked away. Martindale was consumed with being the MOG...to the point of trashing much of Wierwille's work in order to glorify himself. Martindale's doctrines were sophmoric at best...any serious theologian who looked at Martindales "work" would probably soil himself laughing. Actually, I'm surprised that kingokie was able to teach it twice the same way.

But George, the Wierwille apologists don't want to let go of their security blanket. I mean...that guy in India MUST have been healed!...it gives them a straw to grasp at...makes them feel...you know, "spiritual".

In my opinion, the "absent Christ" doctrine was a classic bait and switch scheme. The written word takes the place of the absent (not here on earth) Christ...and seeing that Veepee was "in charge" of deciphoring the holy writ for us...he "sorta" became the head of the body. Wierwille taught about the "great mystery" but in practice, he preferred the "Moses as man of God" role for himself...of course martindale took the cue and became "Joshua". In effect, the absent Christ doctrine denied an ACTIVE role for Christ in the here and now...his role as head of the body became an academic thing, you were not allowed to converse with him directly. Consequently, the "waytree" echelon took the place of the spiritual body of Christ in how we all interacted. With Christ not present, the doors were opened for Wierwille's Frankenstein monsters (new creatures) to grow and evolve. Jesus was no longer someone you talked to, he was someone that you "assimilated". Christ in you, the hope of self glory...By severing any attempt to communicate directly with the savior, we were on our own to become spiritual hybrids...self made super conquerors! The focus was on the ego and the pretense was false humility. The waycorps exemplified this. Had anyone in twi actually followed the Lord, the ego trips, sex trips, money trips, and all the abuse would not have been so rampant amoung the top "leaders". I think it's fair to catagorize twi as Christianity without Christ.

I was always amazed how martindale elevated his own opinion above any and all other sources. When he was "crowned" king of twi, he entered into a world of delusion that most of us can only imagine. I watched as he routinely and without a second thought, summarily discarded dozens of talented people who had stood faithful for decades...I watched as he gutted the heart and soul of twi...hundreds and then thousands...booted without a regret. The very foundation of twi's success (pfal, the wow program and ROA) was tossed aside and declared to be "old wine" or some such thing... ...And all this for what reason? Because of king okies neurotic paranoia that his followers would somehow be distracted from worshipping him? He couldn't stand the fact that twi followers did not hold him in the same awe that they held Veepee. He had to purge out anyone who had the ability and gumption to call bull.... on him...he demanded unwavering loyalty...even if he had to trash the entire ministry and everyone in it in his quest to be the mog. What a sick puppy...and of course, his loyalists took on his personality traits as they bullied and abused people. Question leadership?...We should have had our heads examined for even considering them to be leaders, let alone questioning them.

..."Order my steps to thy bed" ..."Craig Martindale, our passover" ..."Light through the motorcoach window" ..."NewKnoxville Mystery religion" ..."The turds way" ..."Receiving the taxexempt holy spurt" ..."School of the profit"

I have to go along with Goey also...Wierwille used the bible like a mathematician uses equations...he made a lot of assumptions that I now disagree with. The message of God's love and salvation and appropriate "Christian behavior" seem to be the main points of the new testament...maybe God gave them "concepts" and they put it into their own words and maybe they screwed it up a little bit...who knows? Maybe some books of the bible were more legitimate than others? Maybe there was a lot of politics involved with the entire process of putting the whole thing together?... One thing that always bothered me was that we were taught that by the time the bible had gotten around to being translated into English, it had already gone through more than one language and several translations...but yet, Veepee hung on every English word like it came directly from heaven that way...but only when it served his purposes...

My flashbacks seem to come in the form of being on the outside looking in...I see myself in others. When I listen to the bible thumpers and see their religious zeal, it takes me back to when I was that way. Whenever I see an example of "group think mentality", I remember how we all were. When I see the guilt and judgement in the eyes of religious people, I feel sorry for them because I understand what makes them tick. I am constantly reminded of my twi experience by observing society as a whole. I see everything there...the lies, manipulation, sex trips, ego trips, etc, etc. Twi was not all that unique in how they screwed people and as I see all these things around me, I somehow feel wiser than I once did. ;)-->

What would Jesus do?...I see in the gospels that Jesus cussed out the phoney religious leaders pretty good. I see no record of where Jesus forgave them and reconciled with them...maybe he did, but it ain't in the bible...only the part about him cussing them out...food for thought.

Wierwille made me sick, the way he would chase after celebrities and people that he deemed as successful. I recall during corps week, Veepee dragged in Bob Richards, the olympic champion from the 50's...the guy who sold Wheaties for years on TV...he was a celebrity of sorts and Veepee was soooooooo impressed with himself because he roped him in. Richards went on and on about how impressed he was with twi...but after that day, I never saw him again.

...Yep, the first rock I attended in 1976 was similar to going to a three day rock concert. There was very little structure and folks just wandered around and had a ball... I often wonder if the reason that lcm resented the rock so much was because he never experienced the casual pleasures of simply meeting new folks and hanging out with friends...he was always the control freak. He always had to be the center of attention and in control of everything. Maybe the spontanaity bugged him. I mean, people just deciding on their own to cook lunch or throw the frisbee?...whenever they wanted?...NO WAY! martinjerk had to take control by scheduling everybodies time for them. That way, at any given moment, people were doing what he told them to do!...by gawd, that's leadership!

The last ROA that I attended was the first ROA after Veepee's death. 1986? It was horrible. People were walking around growling and sneering at each other...rumors we're flying, LCM's teachings were about as inspirational as watching paint dry...The forced twig meetings during the day...scheesh! One of the main reasons for attending the rock, was to walk around and find old friends...it was a time for reunions! Suddenly they are FORCING us to meet several times daily with our twig from back home! There was no time to meet with old friends, it became way too structured and oppressive. What?...I travel hundreds of miles, sleep in a tent so that I can visit with the same folks that I see every day at home? Boy, was that ever stupid!...I refused to comply...I would wander around during the "twig times"...invariably getting confronted and admonished to go find my "proper twig"...I wouldn't do it. Finally, on day three, I came to my senses and took down my tent, packed up and split. I remember being confronted by some "senior corps", as I was getting ready to leave. At first I was told to stay and that God would REALLY bless me...when that didn't work, I was threatened with a severe attack from the debbil if I left early...I remember flipping them the "bird" as I drove away from twi hdqrts for the last time.

...I enjoyed Sidney the most...once it moved to hdqrts, it became too controlled and rigid. My first ROA, we camped out at the Sidney fairgrounds, had beer and pot in our tent...listening to Grateful Dead tapes. Things sure did change.

...Sounds like you have an "opprotunity". No..**** you, I have a problem!

"God will always bless you for following the directives of your leaders, even if they're wrong" The most disasterous situations in my life were brought about by following the advice of twi leaders. They obviously came up with this cliche to counter all the bad decisions that were being made and to keep people obedient, in spite of the leaders total incompetance.

Yeah, it disturbed me too...he was a good friend. That whole process of "ministering healing", as taught by Wierwille was as phoney as a three dollar bill. First thought? Gimme a break. When George Aar is talking to me, I don't have to stop and try to decide whether or not it was "my own thoughts" or George speaking...he tried to formulate it and make it mechanical...half the stuff, he just made up. Veepee was a total piker when it came to "healing"...now, has anybody caught a whiff of Benny Hinn? This guy puts on a REAL dog and pony show...has folks standing in line and he just walks down the line and heals em all! waves his hand and they drop!...the gullible eat this up like a hot fudge sundae in July. He has his brother "screening" em first as he brings them up...it's hysterical...but Benny's laughing all the way to the bank. The money he makes is far greater than anything Veepee ever generated...just goes to show ya, if you want to bring in the REAL crowds, you have to have a good "light show".

When I took the class in July of 1975 it cost $85. It went up to $100 in September of 1975. It went up to $200 in Sept of 1976...The price was dropped down to $100 again but I'm not sure when...maybe 1978.

In 1975 I walked a blind guy up to Wierwille at a meeting (Buffalo, NY)...Veepee looked at my friend and asked him what he wanted, my friend told Veepee that he came tonight to receive his healing and be able to see again...Grifter Vic told him to take the pfal class and he would receive his healing during the class...To make a long story short, my blind friend couhed up the $100, took the class, never received his sight and died shortly after...Maybe the mog was having an "off night" when we saw him.

...Yeah, we need an "innie" to give us an update... My guess is that visiting twi hdqrts today would sorta be like visiting the astrodome in Houston...the baseball and football teams don't use it anymore...oh, they have a rodeo there and a few other events, but most of the time it just sits there empty. If you walk around the inside of it, it cries out with the ghosts of yesterday...

...A cult without a cult leader? If Rosie is not the LOG (lesbian of God), then aren't they a ship without a rudder? Maybe she should come up with a "godstory"...you know, snow on the carpet or something?

Thet never should have sold the Babe... ;)-->