GrouchoMarxJr

Another thought... Twi was always adamant about not letting others teach the "class", they HAD to hear it from the great Dr...Often times grads were "reproved" for trying to share too much of the class with new folks...tell them to "wait for the class" was always the response. Wierwille claimed that he was "teaching people who would be able to teach others", but in practice, Wierwille was only teaching people to herd them into the taped classes. New grads were usually made to feel inferior when it came to communicating the "class material" to others. I find it ironic that Wierwille had sat through Leonards class and within 7 months was not only teaching it himself, but had revised it so that others would think it was his work...Isn't it curious how Wierwille refused people the same opprotunity that he had? Perhaps he was afraid that someone would "revise it" for themselves and cut him out of the profits? He set up safeguards to stop anyone from doing what he himself had done. What do you think of this?...IF I had taken pfal for the first time, and then 7 months later I was teaching my own class called "Power for Godly Living"...I simply "rearranged" a few things, put it in a book, registered a copywrite, and then claimed that God had taught me the word as it had not been known since Jesus himself walked the earth. I start charging money for it and am soon filthy rich. Of course, my conscience would never allow me to do such a thing, and I am guessing that the same is true for most of the GSers...How LOW, to steal another man's work, put your own name on it and then make money off of the process...How LOW!!!... ...But yet, this is EXACTLY what Victor Paul Wierdwille did!...and on top of all that, he then abused the "authority" he had manufactured for himself by sexually exploiting young girls and lording over his followers...tell me again oldies, how much you admire this man.

75 bucks was the entry fee into the "hall of mirrors". Had to have at least 7 people to run a class too...That's $525.00 bucks that twi got for each class (on the average)...Let's see now...the class instructor worked for free, the class crew worked for free, the facility used was free, the refreshments were provided free...Hmmm, I'm trying to figure out what twi's "overhead" was for running a class. Oh yeah, they sent us some tapes that we had to return and gave everybody a stack of paperback books. Non-profit? No wonder they could afford to buy campuses all over God's creation... Of course, as I "rightly divide" the 4 gospels and the life of Jesus...I see numerous accounts of how Jesus made a small fortune selling God's word to the masses...and that Paul, what a business man! I heard that he used to charge top dollar for a live teaching of Ephesians...

oldies...I understand your position...but I am of the same mind as Georgio....grifter

Oak...even stating the obvious seems to elude some people.

CKnapp...You may have hit the nail on the head...who's to say that lcm didn't "test the waters" for his own splinter group only to discover that most people would rather be dragged naked from the back of a pick up truck than ever listen to another word he has to say. Of course, if he did start one... ;)--> "FCFC"...(Former Clergy For Christ) "FCLC"...(First Church of the Last Chance) "FAGS"...(Foreheads Against Grease Spot) "FBWIC"..(Former Bench Warmer in Charge)

hee hee... Well at least oldies doesn't refute the facts...he simply says "who cares?". Ya gotta marvel at that "ostrich with his head in the sand" approach to life...To each his own.

I agree...isolation is essential in order to get people into the right frame of mind for "programming". Propaganda and lies, whether political or religious, thrive in a controlled environment. When I began to question things, the peer pressure with the controlled group was very strong. I had to remove myself from that setting before my mind even BEGAN to heal. To any innies reading this...Jesus was not afraid of the free flow of uncensored information...it was those who were behind closed doors for fear of the Jews that were told to "fear not" and come back out into the public view...those who think they hold the truth should never be afraid to consider and confront the rest of us...unless of course, that "truth" that you hold is a delicate soap bubble ready to "pop" as soon as it is exposed to the free flow of ideas.

George...That brings up another interesting point...Obviously, Vic simply took what HE considered to be the best theology of other men and put it together in a hybrid way...oftentimes stealing, word for word...like a wayward college student... In pfal, I CLEARLY remember Vic going on and on and on and on...about how he finally came to "the point" in his life where he threw away all his theological books, hauled em all to the place where the fires never cease (remember?)...from that point on, he studied ONLY the word itself. He made a point of emphasizing all of that! OK...So when did when Vic actually come to "the point" of hauling all his theological books to the dump?...My guess is right AFTER he copied it all down on paper and put his own name on it! I mean, no sense in keeping the evidence around...might as well haul it all to the dump now! :D--> In other words, he was a self serving, lying bastard, seeking self glory...and some people still give credence to Vic's teachings? If Vic was right about anything at all, it's because Stiles, Bullinger, or Leonard may have been right about something...but then again, this was the theology that Vic thought was most sound...and we all know about Vic, now don't we? So...if you insist on developing a Christian doctrinal base in your head...my only suggestion would be to find your own theologians to believe in...why go second hand through the twisted prism of a grifter?

oldies...how about Vics advanced class teachings about receiving revelation? If he really believed his own teachings why did twi keep such a tight rein on people, making decisions FOR them all the time? I mean, if you really believed that God is speaking to EACH person, why put such controls over them, as if they were mindless fu*kchimps?

oldies...how about Vics teaching on tithing...he never gave his "should sons do less than servants" teachings until the organization grew and he needed the money. In fact, it was a sharp departure from what he had previously been teaching...that's why many of the old timers left in the early sixies...

Oh no George, didn't you know, (as pointed out by Mike)...gawd "told" Vic to steal the works from other men and slap his name on it. It was all part of gawd's master plan to crown Vic as Thee greatest word dividin', bible thumpin', revelation gettin', withered hand healin', snow gazin', motorcycle wreckin', shanta shoutin', foot grabbin', money pilin', cornfield preachin' man of gawd that has walked the earth since...Jeezuz hisself!!!...Leading this heavenly spermsickle cult into the reality of turd over the world....mmmmmmmmm, ....grifter.

Twi nostalgia vs Twi reality...I've actually heard old junkies speaking nostalgically of the good old days when the heroin they cooked up was pure...I suppose there will always be those who refuse to leave their dream world.

Before this turns out to be a theological debate on salvation... ...I vote grifter. (ex corps)

Suffice it say that each poster has made his/her opinion clear. It's interesting to observe how the Wierwille apologists always seem to digress back to "the good Wierwiile did"...I suppose this is the frame of reference for those who still embrace the myth of the man. Of course, this is the REAL issue here...To rephrase a statement from the old Vickster himself..."You tell me what you think of Victor Paul Wierwille, and I'll tell you how far you have come in your cult recovery". ;)-->

I started this thread with the hopes that it would end up being a list of humorous names for Lcm's splinter group...like, Martindale's Marauders, Athletes with attitudes, or followers of the prevailing turd...but oh nooooooo...you all have to go serious on me. ;)--> Forgive Martindale? It would be the Christian thing to do. Easy?...neither is quitting smoking. Thanks for all the heart felt and insightful responses to my original question. Legitimate questions about twi's version of the "gift ministries", our capacity to grow and forgive, God's calling in a person's life...a lot of interesting spins on where lcm's life may be at now...I guess we all have gained new and healthier perspectives in a lot of ways... As far as Martindale goes...I don't wish bad on him. Part of the healing is not to let bitterness get the better of you...If I stayed angry forever, I would be the one who got the ulcer, not craiggers. I would like to think that he recognized the truth of what really happened and that he was repentant in his heart. Of course, this may or may not be the case...Be that as it may, the longer I am "out" of twi (17 years now)...the more distance there is between me and that nefarious chapter of my life...and the less I am bothered by any of it anymore. I suppose that is part of the reason why I post here...because I can assure those who are recently "out", that things do get much, much, much, better as time goes on... ...And whether you forgive Martindale or not is a personal choice...I do think it's important to continue posting the truth of what these scoundrals once did, because..."they" (meaning twi) are still doing it!

...Looks like all the leaves have died.

HCW...Welcome to the GreaseSpot. I always find it interesting to revisit the fantasy world that many of us call "wayworld". It's true that many posters here were involved with twi many years after the time period in which you speak...although many of us WERE there during that time (Evan, Socks, many others...)I also recall the early seventies and know many of the people of whom you speak. I also understand the "frame of mind" that you embrace as evidenced by your posts. As I shake my head in wonder, I am reminded by your posts that there are still many people who are stumbling around on this planet with similar opinions of Wierwille and the "good old days" of twi...As I have stated before, Wierwille was to Christian ministry what Jeffery Dahmer was to Gourmet cooking...stick around here for awhile and you might be surprised what you learn about the real history of this "Heavenly Sperm Cult"...as a famous attorney once called it. ;)-->

He could call his followers "Loy's boys".

Being fired as a twi clergy has traditionally been a springboard into starting your own splinter group. Think of all those swell twi clergy, that went on to start their own thing...There's JAL, JS, MG, VF, DS, DC, BR, JS, CG, and the list goes on and on... So what's up with Loy? He was full of "fire"...all these other guys went on to fulfill their "ministries", but Loy wimps out like a whipped dog? Works a secular job? Any guesses as to why Loy doesn't start his own splinter group?

I think the major turning point for twi was when the old poop passed. It was almost like the "spell was lifted". Wierwille's death was like a vampire movie...after they kill the top vampire (Count Dracula), all those who had been biten are suddenly released from the vampires hypnotic hold...That's why martinfail purged out all the old timers who had previously been under the spell of Count Vic...he didn't have the power to hold them, they had become too strong for him to control. In the animal kingdom, the herd thins itself out by killing the weakest...martinfart did just the opposite. He got rid of all the strong ones who could challenge him and surrounded himself with the spineless lackeys, that he himself had been one previous to his position as greatest man of gawd since Jezuz hisself...turning points?...I think those years between 1980 and 1990 tell a revealing story.

Also...I think we should revive the ROA and put SongRemainsTheSame in charge of it...

What would happen?...PJ Roberge would file a lawsuit against somebody, Paw would walk off in disgust, Karl would get drunk and laugh his foot off, Raf would get Mike as his assistant and then sneak out the back door, dmiller would decline the job and give it to Garth, Ron would call Ted F back and we would all be grooooovy Christians again, Exie would impliment the policy that all ordained clergy must become eunichs, ;)--> ...and Doug, he'd be tearing down all the fences surrounding the property...As for me, I'd be getting drunk with Karl.

If I was getting the money he is getting paid, I would let the fans shoot me with a taser gun after a bad outing.

In spite of what the preacher said, obviously he was not beleeeevin'! Else why would the Almighty lift his hand off him? He was probably keeping some of that tithing money for hisself...just like them folks in the book of Axe...what was their names agin? Oh yeah, Anus and Saphire...they kept some of the shekles for themselves and Gawd struck em down fast...I'm bettin' the same happened to this preacher fella...Gawd don't let nobody mess with the money!

....Likewise.