GrouchoMarxJr

The Moody Blues!...I had to jump into this thread... I've been a huge Moodie's fan for over 30 years. Last year I bought a 5 CD set of their best stuff...The 7 albums, from Days of future passed to 7th Sojourn were magical. I loved Question of Balance and Every good boy deserves favor...they were very good at concept albums...of course, during those years, if you did a lot of LSD ;)-->, the music and lyrics of the Moody Blues were "somehow" quite clear. The Moody Blues were "tour guides" for all those brave enough (and perhaps stupid enough), to enter into the subculture of "acid heads" back in the late 60's and early 70's. Like the Grateful Dead and others, much of their music was tailored for tripping...I was doing "orange sunshine" when I saw them live in 1972...If heaven is as good as that night was...count me in.

He he...we used to have this woman in our twig who always prayed "in Jesus name"...drove all the hard corps wayfers nuts. They claimed she was possessed by a "Jesus spirit"... :D--> In retrospect, I think being possessed by a "Jesus spirit" is a whole lot better than being possessed by a "grifter spirit".

Kathy O. came up to the stage to lead songs for about 500 people...she was wearing a tube top and when she lifted her arms to lead the song, her breasts came "popping out" of her top... Her face turned the color of a red rose... Ross T then came on stage to teach and thanked Kathy for keeping us all "abreast" of things...

Reminds me of this lady who used to come into my house twice a week (along with some other people I didn't like) and try to shove her tongue all the guy's throats... I finally had to announce that there would be no more "holy kisses" at my "fellowship"... When the branch meetings came I would pull the sidewinder move on her. ;)-->

Gawd, this stuff makes me laugh. I remember "the guy hiding in his closet" incident...I was there when Richard confronted him in front of everyone...I recall thinking to myself at the time, "at least I didn't fu*k up that bad" :D--> My favorite was when they were dedicating Anderson library at Emporia...They were all standing on the front steps for the ceremony...Veepee was there along with the other trustees, about 50 people crowded together in the front of the library...I was about 200 feet away on the sidewalk...suddenly a car full of "Townies" comes driving through the campus...when they get near the library, they honk the horn...when EVERYBODY turned to look...some guy was hanging his bare a$$ out of the window "mooning" them. I had to turn my head and walk the other way, so that nobody would see me laughing.

...Maybe I will start a company and sell stock in it...only after you pay me for the share of stock, I will designate you as a non-shareholder. Of course that would mean you could show everyone the stock certificate (I would send you one in the mail)...and you could pretend that the company was "your company"...and you could work hard to promote it and hold your head up high when you showed folks the stock certificate...of course, you would own nothing because you are a non-shareholder...the money would all be mine.

I recall Veepee's spiel about how there were no member of twi...that way nobody could get kicked out...then he would chuckle. The real reason why there were no official members, was so that nobody had any claims to the money except them...Nobody had any say in what went on, because afterall, you're not even an official member...so shut up. ...But then suddenly...non-members began to lose their non-membership! In other words, you were no longer not a member...you would lose all the rights and priviledges that were being extended to all non-members who remained in good standing. Non-members who lost their good standing, were now considered to be non-standing non-members, versus standing non-members. You say this sounds silly to you? Well, the idea that there are no members is not true. Actually there are three members...and as far as I know, they think the non-membership system works just fine for them... ;)-->

I recall when Martindale went from the corps coordinator to the corps director...that was a big change in terms of Martindale having a free hand to institute his changes...that was about 1975 or 76 I think...Up until then, Wierwille had a direct hand on the corps policies...Martinfail slowly instituted his changes...By the time he became president, he had already changed the ministry...the corps nazis that he whipped into shape were out on the field pushing the nazi agenda...when the Okie finally took the mantle, he simply applied his strict legalisms to the entire ministry instead of just the corps...when I walked away in 1987...Martinfail was just beginning all the "control policies"...the real nasty policies came after I left...

Like everybody else, I put up with the spittle as they spewed their warped "reproof" at me. Instead of whipping him like corn bread batter, I stood there with glassy eyed remorse...believing that I was a loathsome failure and that this God chosen leader was trying to help my sorry arse... If I could go back in time...I'd punch him in the mouth so hard that he would have to drop his pants to chew his food...no more church with you boy....

Honestly...I read these things and shake my head... I came from the era when people didn't get kicked out of the ministry...This whole nazi, police state mentality, lets control their lives crap was all Martindale...Wierwille put the hammer down on people in the corps...but never "Joe believer" at home going to twig... We used to have regular twig members who NEVER abundantly shared, only came to twig when they felt like it, never went to any "big meetings", questioned leadership constantly, smoked dope DURING twig fellowship, were in debt up to their arses, and had more personal problems than a toilet cleaner at a bean factory in Tiajuana...The teaching at the time was that we were to "love the unlovable" and that you ALWAYS welcomed people back into the fellowship...in order for somebody to be kicked out, they had to have stolen the ABS money, beat up the twig leaders wife and burned down the limb home... To see how twi "evolved" under the watchful eye of Martinfail...is disturbing to say the least.

Put an Alka Seltzer under your tongue at the beginning of fellowship...when somebody speaks in tongues...start growling and letting the foam run out of your mouth...

I thought I would pop into this thread for a minute...I was curious as to why this thread had nearly 300 posts... I must admit that I have not read every post... but what I have read sounds so biologically tehnical and elaborate, that I am scratching my head and saying..."yikes". Maybe I should just cut to the chase...How much for a gallon Dave?

What Wierwille was good at was "preachin'"...he was charismatic and he knew it...it wasn't so much what he said as much as how he said it... He knew how to work a crowd...WHAT he taught was almost beside the point...he could have been teaching us about oxygenated water and everybody would have run out to get some...(hi Dave ;)-->)...the fact that young impressionable kids, believed him...and are now angry about it, is predictable and appropriate. Nobody likes to be conned.

What Wierwille lacked in substance, he tried to compensate for with style. He thought his charisma and his application of homiletics would cover his sophmoric approach to biblical "research". That's why, when you read his books, they appear to have been written by a sophmore in high school... By all accounts, Bullinger appears to have been a serious student of the bible who put together an impressive collection of his work...Grifter Vic's attempt to steal Bullinger's ideas would be comparable to me pretending I was a top chef because I copied a couple recipes from a Emeril Lagasse cook book. It's amazing that he got as far as he did.

Remember how Grifter Vic would say..."My earthly father can do a better job than that!"... Well how about revelation? When my dad would speak to me, he had the uncanny ability to distinguish himself from my own thoughts...never once, when he spoke to me, did I ever wonder..."Is that my dad talking or is it just my own thought?" Imagine that. ...But the cornfield preacher convinced everybody that when the creator of the heaven and earth speaks to us, it comes in a the form resembling our own thoughts...how convieeeeeenient. When I left twi, I vowed to never again PRETEND that God was speaking to me...When ANYBODY speaks to me, determining the source of the speaker has never been a problem...All Wierwille did was confuse people with his catch 22 parlor games.

Ex10...Yes, I do remember when JAL apologized for teaching "first thought"...and a lot of other things too. "Leaders" who acted spiritual...that should be a thread itself...I think about it now and I laugh...how they would pace around with a wrinkled brow, and then suddenly...ZAP! The revy has arrived! That knowing look, that confident bounce in their steps, that title on their nametag...scheeesh, we shoulda handed out Oscars.

The insiders?... 1-foundational class- entry level into cult. Begin to feel superior to all the dumba$$es that haven't had the class yet. 2-intermediate class- learn how to make up biblical sounding words that fit with twi doctrine...and learn to do it fast without much thought. 3-advanced class- learn that your own thoughts (or least some of them), are really God speaking to you...it will definitely be the FIRST thought (whatever that means). You also get a special nametag and get to feel superior to those who have only had the foundational and intermediate classes. 4-WOW- Spend a year getting drunk, getting laid, and getting pinned. 5-corps- Enter the world of cruelty and indifference. This is where it finally starts to pay off...You now have the opprotunity to smootch the rear ends of the "insiders" and to bully the peons who are not corps. 6-clergy- You have arrived! People are required to stand up when you enter a room...how much better can it get than that! 7-Board of Directors- Entire rooms go quiet when you begin to speak, you get your very own nubile corps girl to "clean your house", and you can have your own pet.

Karl's book is great...some folks got upset reading it...I thought it was one of the funniest books that I've ever read...belly laughed through much of it. My memories are the same as Karl's book...I recall vividly when he pulled this stunt. He saw himself as the Martin Luther of his time... :D--> :D--> :D--> :D--> :D-->. What level of insecurity can drive a man to "see himself" that way? Vic wanted SO BADLY to be important...he wanted to be recognized and admired...he craved it...he lived for it...and then he would act so "humble"...OH PLEEEEZE! The guy was so transparent that you could read a newspaper through him...I MUST have been brainwashed!

Steve...I know exactly what you mean! When we went out lightbearers, they told us that if we didn't put a class together we would be dropped from the corps...that is, until we all got back and only 1 or 2 groups had got their class together...suddenly they changed their minds...they had NO integrity at all....NONE. There were numerous people who were so stressed out over this, they were crying and shaking...it was all a test...they never intended to boot us out...they lied to us.

...And wierwille's original teaching on it was that revelation meant "to receive for a certainty"...sounds good in the classroom but a little tricky out there in "the field". When you think about it, the guys who got the top jobs were the ones who put on the best act...

Yep...The absent Christ doctrine opened the doors for the cursed waytree to operate. By eliminating the true head of the body, Wierwille managed to place himself in that position. Afterall, the "word" takes the place of the absent Christ...and we all knew who was "in charge" of the "word"...Grifter Vic saw himself more as Moses than he did Paul...(that's why martinfart saw himself as Joshua)...So...Instead of "holding the head"...Wierwille took the job for himself and replaced the "effectual working of the body" with the waytree hierarchy... Allright everybody...lift your voices..."I'm so glaaaaad I'm a part of the faaaaaaamily of gaaawd, I bow doooooooown to wierwille cause he is the moggggggggggggg..."

quote..."What I DON'T understand is why some so vehemently seem to desire that all of us "throw away the baby with the bathwater." HCW..In my opinion, there was no baby in twi...only dirty bathwater. The "form" of Christianity that twi taught was bogus. I for one, encourage people to attend church if they feel so inclined and to embrace Christian values and beliefs...but on the other hand, I also encourage people to sever themselves from the entire twi "experience". If there WAS anything that was true, it will be found in most churches... who wants to sift through all that false doctrine just to find a few things that can found in most churches?...Besides, too many of twi's "teachings" use "waywords" and "waythoughts"...phrasing something a certain way, can trigger an entire twi "mindset"...I threw away the KJV of the bible that I used in twi for many years...all those "corrections", added phrases, literals according to useage, all the notes...it was not the bible anymore...it had become the "wierwille testament"... For many people, a total severing of "everything twi" is a good idea to begin to clear the brain and begin to think for yourself again. There's just too much residual damage that was done to people...even if you found some twi teaching that was "acceptable" Christian doctrine, it would be full of "wayisms" that would jump the mind into all sorts of associations of the twi experience...The book of Timothy tells us to DEPART from them...I think that's sound advice.

...OK, so I reach up into the damn cookie jar and then what?...maybe you get it, maybe you don't?...I STILL have a first thought...How am I supposed to tell the difference as to whether the cookie jar was empty or there was a "goodie" in there for me? I have no problem telling the difference between my own thoughts and somebody else talking to me...I imagine that if God were to speak to me, I shouldn't have any problems telling the difference between God talking and my own thoughts!... A cult that has people second guessing as to whether their own thoughts are really their own...or are coming in from another source... --> Reminds me of an Xmen episode...

If I've learned anything in life...it's that people will believe ANYTHING. Jim Jones followers drank the koolaid Charles Manson's followers committed murders. David Koresh followers fought to the death Timothy Leary's followers visited "strange places" VP Wierwille's followers sexually abused women and bullied others...and drove some to suicide. As Leonard Cohen once said..."Everybody wants a box of chocolates and a long stem rose...Everybody knows..."

Learning of twi's sexual abuse was an evolution of thought for me...In 1976 I first heard of certain "sexual liberties" that were taken by those "spiritual" enough to handle it. I sorta scratched my head but didn't come to any conclusions. In 1979, I was in residence and saw the pattern of only "the hotties" were given the assignment to work in lcm's personal house...there were rumors...but I still didn't connect the dots. In 1987, I was told the truth by 2 twi clegy who had left the ministry...I also left the ministry shortly thereafter...although the sexual abuse was only one reason out of many.