GrouchoMarxJr

I recall when I was at Emporia, Martinfart finished his teaching with a "word of prophesy" that lasted about 8 or 9 minutes! When it was over, he received a standing ovation...I kid you not. The guy was so full of himself...and who could forget those torture filled moments when Craigers would have one corps person after another, stand up and give a word of prohesy...only to be criticized and ripped to shreads in front of hundreds of people, as lcm would tell you how you screwed it up...screaming at you...oftentimes stopping you in mid-sentence....Who the hell was he to decide if it was genuine or not? Looking back, it was just another excuse for lcm to be a bully. How real was it? I think TWI, in general, turned spiritual things into mechanical, physical things...(ie: the waytree instead of the body of Christ, etc. etc.) Tongues?...Was "Wierwille's version" of tongues the real deal? Let each decide for themselves.

...quote: "Martindale was (and probably is) truly the champion offender of TWI. Wierwille could be a lot nastier, but Martindale's bluster was on nearly constantly." How true, how true. The man was just plain mean spirited. He seemed to thrive on "smashing the weaklings"...I never liked that loud mouthed pr*ck.

Tom H...excellant points, excellant post. mdvaden...welcome to the Grease Spot, I see you're a new poster. I guess my point was that it's what's in a person's heart that's important. The genuine desire to help someone versus trying to meet a class quota or some such thing... ...and I'm not sure we really disagree about the "confusion thing"...Of course, the bottom line is that I am responsible for what I choose to believe and who I choose to follow...but I will not excuse the false teachers so readily...there is an element of "intention" that cannot, in all honesty, be ignored.

This thread ties together with what I was trying to say on the thread about "ministering"...So many people who were involved, had good hearts and good intentions. Had folks not believed they were serving God, they wouldn't have put up with twi's crap. That's what makes it so sad...Not only did twi abuse people...they abused the very people who had stepped forward to believe and serve God. I think that many folks here at GS have realized that you don't need a title, a nametag, or an organization in order to live a life of caring and serving others, that is in their hearts. To survive the twi experience...and to rise above the bitterness and hurtfulness of it all...and to continue on that quest to live a Christian life. "I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now"...Dylan

I'm glad to see so many responses to this thread...Many times we read about the abuses of twi, but seldom is it discussed within the context of "ministering"...The contrast between the intentions to help vs. what actually happened. Had I been indifferent towards people, it would have been difficult enough to watch the abuses...but to watch the abuses when my heart was to do the exact opposite...was enough for me to walk away. In twi, the focus was not really on the person who had a need...it was on the "mighty minister", who, while dancing around in tights, would grace us with his presence as he pontificated and spit upon us all. Oooooh, Ahhhhh...went the crowds, as the athelete of the spirit, the mighty minister, the center of attention...would wave his over the crowd... Of course the guy who quietly sat in the back...the guy who was sick and in need went home without being noticed or without being healed...taking with him, a new found guilt...he was now guilty of NOT BELIEVING for his own deliverance. The mighty minister had said so... Twi had everything assbackwards. They promised a magic show but only came up with smoke and mirrors...and we all saw through it eventually...or at least most of us did...(sorry about that Bob Moneyhands)...When they failed to deliver the goods, they institutionalized and ritualized the process. When one considers the egos that were involved with the twi leadership, is it any wonder that Christ was absent?

Believe me, I have my own skeletons buried in the way woods myself...I had a "way marriage"...two WOW's that met and got married, mine was the first twi wedding ever at camp Gunnison...Veepee was there hisself... We went into the corps together and during our interim year, my wife cracked under the pressure of trying to live a pseudo cult life with a husband she didn't really know and who didn't really know her...We never should have been married to start with. She left. Of course, being a glassy eyed fu*k chimp, I called LCM immediately, hoping for some comfort and encouragement... ;)-->...drum roll please... With an indifferent tone in his voice, mr martinfart informs me that I am officially "out of the corps"...I am stunned. He goes on to tell me that he didn't think that I got a single thing out of my first year in residence and that I should " go find a twig somewhere"... I think back now and I laugh about it...I wasn't laughing at the time. I went on a 6 month Scotch binge (Dewars thank you)...I finally survived the whole ordeal, like so many other things in life...this was 26 years ago, but the thing that lingers the most, was martindale's total indifference. Happy to report that my ex went on to great things...and I'm glad she did. Twi destroyed countless marriages...the cult experience is devastating enough for the individual...what it does to a marriage is a real horror story. I think folks had to do what they had to do...in order to survive...I believe in the integrity of the marriage vows...but when it is a "cult marriage", and people are glassy eyed, brainwashed, and misguided...all bets are off. God made a special "out" for people in this situation: From the bullsheeta text, "Lo, if thou art stricken with a delusional spirit, and are married thusly, and if either should go to or fro without the other...they shall be loosed from this delusional vow made in derision"

It's funny that satori would bring up the subject of rumors...because I heard, and I am looking for verification on this...that Donna M. has a "thing" for fresh vegtables. I can't go into detail, on this forum, what I was told...but if anyone has any information on this...please come forward with it... ...If I repeated what I was told, you would be whistling carrots.

The biggest "Baby Ruth" was floating in front of the ladder...

After 8 months at Emporia, they sent me to Rome City for the final 4 months...where life was much easier. Where nobody cared if you ran or not...and there was food aplenty! :D--> Every afternoon, I would sneak up into the attic and take a nap for an hour or two...I had this hidden spot ;)--> Of course, I got to know Bob Moneyhands a lot better...what a jerk.

I'd rather eat some rancid pork Or take a stabbing from a fork I'd rather have them send me howling Via stake or disemboweling You could feed me to the ants Should you should or should you shant Drop me in some boiling oil Or give me sores and nasty boils Take away my right to vote Steal my boots and steal my coat Drill a hole into my head Leave me laying there for dead Take a bullwhip to my foot ...Before I'd ever take that class

What drew me to twi in the first place was their "unconditional acceptance" of anyone and everyone who wanted to be a part of it..."We have no strangers at the Way"...remember that one?...Veepee used to teach that if someone walks away from the fellowship and then returns a year later, you welcome them back with open arms. Those were sentiments that I appreciated. The biggest regret that I have, is that I didn't march into martinfart's office and tell that mean spirited little weasel off. Getting "In Trouble"?...If they ever bother me again, I'll show them what REAL trouble is...maybe a few pop knots on somebody's head.

I would not take it with the pope I'd rather smoke a bowl of dope I'd rather get hung by a rope Or for my lunch, I'd eat some soap I'd rather set my hair on fire Or have my tongue cut with a wire Drive a nail into my face Or make me wear girlie lace Make me live in Fallujah Or make me scream hallaloojah! Paint my house with toxic waste Or shove my face into some paste I'd pimp myself out on the street Or take a saw and cut my feet I'd rent a room down in hell Before I'd take pfal.

:D--> :D--> :D-->

Mike...At least you acknowledge that you DO have the charecteristics of the religiously intolerant...Of course, you go on to say that those who embrace the truth, also exhibit these same charecteristics...using Jesus, Paul and Moses as examples. There is another charecteristic of BOTH religious intolerance and true enlightenment...They BOTH think they are right. The misguided religious bigot is as convinced that he is right, as someone who actually is... Therefore, I submit that you are unable to distinguish between the two. Jesus believed he was right...so did Charles Manson. Paul believed he was right, so did David Koresh. Moses thought he was right, so did Jim Jones...and so do you. So Mike, are you one of the ones who is actually right?...or are you one of the ones who just thinks he is right but is actually wrong? Even your hero, Veepee said that sincerity is no guarantee for truth. So...your saying it, your believing it, your propounding it, carries absolutely NO credibility as to whether or not it is true....NONE. That being said, I would also submit that what you believe has made you mentally ill...I say this from experience. I know what you believe and I know what it does to people. Reading your posts is an excercize is recognizing the symptoms that accompany the association to this cults teachings.

I would not take it on a bet I'd rather smoke a cigarette I would not take it at high noon I would not take it on the moon I'd rather gargle broken glass than sit through one more session of that class I'd just as soon go into jail or puke my supper into a pail I'd take a hat pin in the eye Or catch a taser on the fly I'd drop my head into the can I'd be a Michael Jackson fan I'd lie down on the railroad track Or move into a run down shack I'd run into a lion's den Before I'd take that class again.

Mike's attitude should not be surprising. It contains all the charecteristics of religious intolerance. Whenever I see someone who is absolutely resolute that THEY are right and anyone who disagrees with them is wrong, I know that I have found a religious zealot. Being right becomes the primary force in their lives, they become dependant upon it like a junkie is to his drug. On a subconscious level, WHAT he believes is really irrelevant, it is a matter of BEING RIGHT. Of course, this requires an extremely closed mind...which is what Mike has strived for. You see, Wierwille taught Mike to keep his mind closed...Otherwise, Mike might question, consider and doubt...and then Mike's mind would be OPEN to debbil spurts. This mindset brings with it an attitude of superiority (how could it not, seeing he's right and everybody else is wrong)...which usually manifests itself with condescending and patronizing remarks. He's really not a bad fellow...he simply has a closed mind due to his codependance upon being the holder of absolute truth...quite comforting I suppose, but then again so is the junkies heroin.

I believe one of the reasons why they opened their site was to give their minions an alternative to us. :D--> ...Of course, after they post their "I am soooo blessed" post on their sanitized little cult forum...they then lurk here to get the real "scoop"...and ya can't blame em...who wants to exist on a diet of regurgitated "positive confessions", right out of the spermcycle cult handbook...especially when they have real issues inside that they are forced to keep to themselves. I'm right and if you're an innie reading this...you know I'm right. ;)-->

...the Monster. ;)-->

Spiritual pressure...this was the term used to let people know that the Almighty trusted you with divine information because you were so very mature and committed...Unlike the poor schmuck who was wondering why you were in a bad mood. It was designed to give the impression that the person who was under "spiritual pressure" was not only able to "handle" that which you were so miserably inadequet to do, but was also instrumental in fighting the spiritual forces of darkness, which you were so obviously helpless against...If one was under spiritual pressure, it surely indicated that they were very very important people in Gawd's overall plan...unlike you, who obviously were unaware that there even WAS any "spiritual pressure...(oftentimes went hand in hand with the "knowing look" that you had just received revelation)...

I would not take it with a duck I would not take it for a buck I would not listen for three weeks I would not listen to those geeks I would not bring the coffee pot I would not pray for the bot I will not speak in tongues for you I will not lie and say it's true I will not flip the charts tonight I will not sit and say it's right I will not string a lousy chair my reason is that I don't care pfal is just a scam I'd rather eat green eggs and ham.

I hear ya Hammer... I would rather crawl naked over broken glass for 5 miles with someone shooting rock salt into my foot every 50 feet...before I would ever subject myself to the hideous torture of PFAL.

So much of what twi did, they did under the guise of "ministering to people". Whether it was their teachings or the actual laying on of hands or whatever form it took, it was presumably "ministering". Of course we all know of the many, many abuses that took place and that much of the so-called "ministering" was actually abusive behavior. I was always bothered by the fact that twi had no interest in you unless you were willing to pay for their products. (kick the dust off your feet)...Looking back, it's clear that people were nothing but "marks" to consume their products and to be used. The horror stories are legendary. Of course, so many of the folks who got involved, really had good hearts and good intentions...at least at the beginning. Many did their best to help people because they actually DID care. Much of the actual help done for people was done in spite of twi, not because of them. Good hearted people who simply got involved...of course, these were the folks who eventually were either marked and avoided or left on their own. Since I've left twi (18 years ago), I have learned that "ministering" to other people doesn't mean running folks through classes, or selling them tapes or books, or being a "dynamic" teacher in front of crowds...or convincing them that MY group has all the answers...it's not about going WOW or taking corps assignments...it's not about "outreach" or in recruiting large numbers...it's not about cramming my head with more and more "bible stuff" to make me a more "effectual minister"...No, not for me anyway... What I have learned is that all I have to do is to care about the people who are in my life. Be willing to get involved, to listen, to give, to love, to let them know that I'll always be there for them, to share my life with them and have fun and talk about the things that matter. To be a friend...Living that way with your own personal faith within, motivated by a genuine caring and a heart felt notion that God cares too...Isn't it a shame that it would take me years to realize what my mom and dad taught me as a kid growing up...by word and example. I had to buy into the grifter's hype, thinking that spirituality came with classes, nametags and ego... To those still in...You don't need twi to live a Christian life and to help people...In fact, twi will confuse you as to what those things really mean. Look into your heart...not into twi's "class materials"...

Sure...I don't mind including "eternity" on a reality check thread. Eternity?...According to the bible, Christians are given eternal life. Twi has turned the perception of "eternity" into part of their "carrot on a stick" program. Sell our product and God will give you "rewards" once you hit the shores of eternity...part of the "spiritual competition"...twi does nothing without strings attached. There is no unconditional love with trying to pile up "rewards" for yourself. God's gift of eternal life was turned into a marketing scheme by twi...it was also used as an excuse to sin (I'm saved, what the hay)... ...And furthermore...the parable of the good steward illustrates that we are not to ignore the "temporal" matters of life, such as having a home and planning for the future and having health insurance, etc. etc. Twi teaches that we should not be concerned with our lives here upon earth, because afterall, we're all going to heaven anyway...No, we should not be concerned with our personal lives...we should be concerned with the furtherance of twi's agenda! BS!!!...They try to justify a lot of abusive treatment by invoking the name of "eternity"...shame on them.

Talk about memories of being tired...my whole time in residence, I was tired... I was sent to Rome city for a few months and we were "preparing" for the advanced class. Everbody was working 12 hour shifts...A couple of guys needed a ride to New Knoxville to catch a ride on Veepee's jet that was leaving in the morning...I volunteered to drive them AFTER I completed my 12 hour shift --> I forget how many miles it was but on the ride back I was so tired that I became delerious...I found myself driving in some small town and had no idea where I was...I pulled over and parked and got some coffee...it took me awhile to snap out of it, but when I did, I realized that I had driven almost 75 miles too far and had no recollection of driving for the last hour...I had to turn around and head back to Rome city...when I finally got back I was near total collapse...I staggered into my bed and fell into a deep sleep for 12 hours.

Another reality check is to wake up one morning and realize that the "abundant life" that was promised to you, consists of a used car, a rented apartment, no money in the bank, no health insurance...but plenty of squeegies in the closet. :D-->