GrouchoMarxJr

oldies...YOU used the word brainwashing, not me. There are multiple levels of "conditioning", from the effects of TV commercials to marine corps bootcamp. In a way, nobody goes through life without being "conditioned" by the environment that he or she exposes themseves to. Humans are creatures of habit that have a need to associate with and relate to, other humans. Oftentimes this occurs in the context of belonging to a specific group, which affords them acceptance to the collective...they "belong". I have been conditioned in the past, by my highshool football team, a college fraternity, a group of people that I worked with in business, etc, etc. All I am saying is that in twi, we were "conditioned" by a flimflam operation that manipulated and abused...THAT's what folks got "conditioned" to. How did it happen? God was involved...plain and simple, twi exploited us at our most vulnerable point. That's why the bible condemns shepards that screw their own sheep.

Good point Oak...Veepee equated blind obedience with spiritual maturity. That's the main reason why loyboy was selected as the next "bearer of the mantle". Nobody kissed Veepee's big German foot as well as the okie wannabe did. ...and I believe you're right. Oftentimes Veepee would say something at a meeting like..."some of you younger guys outta do that...", just speaking off the cuff and probably half in the bag from too much drambuie...and sure as ...., some zealous young corps grad with a nametag and no brains, would proceed to build a dichotomy of doctrinal directives, developing it into a "program" and then raising the flag of spiritual credibilty on it, because afterall, the mog had "said it". A lot of that happened and as Vic got older, he watched it slip out of his hands. To add insult to injury, he had to witness loyboy dancing around in tights as his life's work was going down the terlet. What goes around, comes around.

Research & Teaching vs. Fellowship.... ...Or to put it another way, Indoctrination into the groupthink mentality of wayword via the stolen, twisted and manipulative doctrines of grifter Vic... ...or the time spent with people pretending to be something they were not, wearing their pasty "bless you" smiles and using all the proper way jargon...All the while, setting you up to volunteer for some meaningless task in order to kiss the foot of the limb leader who was coming for a visit...even as they always found the opprotuinity to shove the "horn of Vic's plenty" in your face, I always found a certain relief when I finally left the damn meeting. ...I don't know, that's a tough one.

oldies says..."Fear? I don't know. Animals do not react that way." You're correct when you say that you don't know. Animals DO react that way if they are conditioned to do so. Ever hear of Pavlov? It's called "learned helplessness"...the dog refused to leave the cage even though the door was wide open and electricity was shooting through him...why? He was conditioned to stay where he was. The "cages" of twi were in people's minds. Twi leaders lied in God's name...and a lot of folks believed them. Simple as that. It was a classic bait and switch operation...They hold God up to you and then replace Him with themselves. It was slick and it was evil. That's why he's called the grifter. Twi ended up being like a combination of David Koresh and Amway. We were manipulated into becoming a free workforce for a spermsickle cult out in the cornfields of Ohio...Sorry folks, but I call em like I see em.

Wierwille made the rules but his "leaders" on the field had plenty of room for doing their "own thing". Region leaders, limb leaders, etc...Veepee wanted them to take care of all the details so that he could sashay into the room and sip his drambuie. Often times, he would bark out some new directive and everybody would conform to it...but most of these guys had plenty of elbow room to become kings in their own little kingdoms. I think as the ministry grew, Veepee became frustrated because he could not control things the way that he desired to. He simply could not keep up with all the decisions that had to be made. ...But Veepee knew where the bodies were buried and who dug the graves. He knew plenty about what was going on...

I seem to recall Veepee claiming that the guy who owns Coors beer was his pal or something like that...

I'm a bloodhound... must have something to do with my highly developed bull.... meter.

Learned Too Late...Thanks for the clarification. I knew it had to be more than just trying to recover ABS money. The breach of confidence and trust by twi is well documented and they really should have their feet held to the fire. Oldies insists on defending twi by refusing to acknowledge the incredible pressure placed upon folks to give money. The fact that people gave their money by their own "freedom of will" only underscores the nature of twi's method of extortion. Had it not been according to our "freedom of will", they would have been thrown in jail for armed robbery. As it stands, a person's "freedom of will" is always involved when they are being blackmailed. You can choose to pay or you can choose to suffer the consequences. If we had not had a choice in the matter, there would have been no need for all the stories of "God not spitting in your direction" or other tales of impending doom that would befall anyone who did not "freely" give their dough. I find it curious that oldies overlooks the obvious.

Prophetic council? Sounds to me like the name of a rock band.

...The scourge of Roman catholicism aside, I think that the pope was successful as an abassador of moral decency. He encouraged millions to live with integrity and courage, he was instrumental in the downfall of communism in Europe and I understand...he spoke, in person, to more people than anyone in the history of mankind (or so they are saying on CNN)...personally, I thought he should have wore trousers instead of a gown.

I agree with mj412...The biggest change in my belief system, since leaving twi, is in the category of needing the validation of others. During my time with twi, I was always looking to see what Veepee had to say, to validate and add credibility. Today, I really don't give a rat's foot what anybody thinks. As far as twi doctrine goes...I threw out the baby with the bathwater.

Here's some that I remember: Mac Davis (singer)...took class Cher...decided not to take class at last minute Bob Richards (Olympic champion and salesmen for "Wheaties")...spoke to us at corps week and said he would take the class (don't think he ever did) Several of the members of Earth, Wind and Fire Famous sportscaster (McCay?)...his daughter was in the corps, I think Paul Allen...Famous "webmaster" who pushed Craig Martindale"s face into a fresh cowpie.

When considering the spiritual aspects of the toilet seat, one must take into account both the "standing" and the "state" of the person using it. Your "state" as a toilet user never changes but if your "standing", you have an additional responsibility to aim circumspectly...because nobody wants their toilet to be marked and avoided.

Points well taken Al. If the Peeler's DO win this case, it will open the doors for thousands and thousands more. In other words, this COULD be the financial ruin of twi. Pretending to be a "church" and hiding their "non-profit" revenue under the umbrella of Christian service could end up being their downfall. In my opinion they should not be allowd to have a non-profit tax status as churches do. They are a business whose main purpose is generating revenue so that they can continue to live a life of ease and priviledge. Twi's teachings on ABS is not unlike the "teachings" of the mafia, where someone would pay you a visit, reminding you that if you didn't pay the protection money "something bad" might happen to you. Interesting to note that there is no mention in the bible of Christians ever being instructed to tithe. Of course, that's why twi had had to go to the book of Malachi to justify their extortion. Just before I left twi, I was confronted by a twi clergy asking me why I quit tithing. I told him that I could not find a Levitical priest to give my money to. He had no idea how to answer me.

oldies says..."We can spin this any way we wish, but the bottom line is, we gave money freely" Hey oldies...who's the "we" you're talking about? Are you the official spokesman here, representing others? I suggest that you speak for yourself.

Interesting how oldies refused to address any of the examples of twi's "believing action" that I listed. He totally changed the subject by attacking my use of the word "we". OK oldies...let's pretend that I used the word "I"...ok? Feel better? Now address the content of my post, if you can. Twi leaders consistantly gave BAD ADVICE to people...advised them to take "action" that was self destructive. I stand by my remarks. ...and your own personal experiences in twi do not negate or justify the evil that this cult espoused...and the damage they did to thousands of people...all in the name of God. Shame on them and shame on you for defending them. oldies...if you had such a swell time fellowshipping with twi...why don't you find yourself a nice splinter group...many of them also hold on to the myth of "the good old days". Perhaps you can all sit around together and do a word study or something...hell, I hear some of them even hand out nametags!

Galen...I certainly don't mean that tithing to a church is a bad thing...I am referring exclusively to twi. They were not a church, they were/are a cult...and I do not recall anytime in which I was consulted as to how my ABS money should be spent...in fact, twi made a point of centralizing all their money into one location and into the control of just a few people.

ex70'shouston says..."Twi was right in the aspect of you can tell a lot about a person by how they spend their money" Might be the truest thing twi ever said...When I gave twi my money, I was clearly a mark and a sucker. I would have done better to send my money to Ron Pompeil for one of those garden weasles.

...oldies...oh, we GOT IT all right. Like when a friend of mine was bleeding internally, and the twi leadership told him that the "proper" believing ACTION was to ignore the medical community and to let some jagoff lays hands on them and pray... OR...the "proper" believing ACTION was to sell your damn house and give twi the money... OR...the "proper" believing ACTION was refuse to have any communication with your "earthly" family because they didn't go to the same church as you did. OR...the "proper" believing ACTION was to quit college or quit your good job so that you could join the free labor force that twi utilized to build their "empire" OR...the "proper" believing ACTION was to leave your spouse because they didn't live up to the "standards" that twi had set. OR...the "proper" believing ACTION was to mark and avoid people on "spiritual suspicion"... Oh, we get it allright oldies...The "action" part of twi's false "believing equals receiving" doctrine was always geared towards filling their bank accounts and furthering their self serving agendas...

,,,In fact, I will take it one step further... Wherever twi used the word "blessed", you can exchange it with the word "fu*ked" and come up with a more accurate assessment of the situation....When you stand with twi, you are fu*ked, when you give twi your money, you are fu*ked, when the twi leader would say "bless you", he really meant "fu*k you"...I think you get the idea.

If a person can sue a church to get his "tithes" back...a pandora's box of litigation would flood the courts. I believe that there have been legal precedents that deal with this very issue. oldies says..."they hang around twi for years, freely give money because they are blessed..." I cannot agree with you on this one...most folks I knew gave their money because they were intimidated, threatened, and browbeat to give it. Twi taught that giving them your money was a NECESSITY...check out your bible...that's a freakin' lie....and blessed? Give me a break! The main reason used to extort money out of people was because they WERE NOT blessed, and they needed to give MORE MONEY to become blessed.

Another thought...not to split hairs, but.... Twi taught that when it came to abundant sharing...we OWED God money! Well...seems that God almighty has painted us into a corner here... Being in debt is sin...We are inherently in debt to God (twi)...therefore: It's sinful to owe money on a mortage for a house that you will end up owning, but it's NOT sinful to owe God (twi) money perpetually. If debt is sin, why did God put us into a perpetual state of debt?

I respect what Johnny Lingo is saying...however, the same is not true for me. At first, I gave to God from the heart...but it didn't take long for me to cop an attitude when twi began pressuring me into giving them what I OWED! It instantly became a case of giving grudgingly and out of necessity...and it also became clear to me that what I had designated for God, was being hijacked by a few cult leaders.

If I recall, there have been several professional opinions posted here at GS, by attorneys, concerning sueing for ABS...or our "tithe"...and there are no real legal grounds for this approach...am I wrong? As much as I would like to see the Peelers take twi over the coals...I have my doubts. If they win their lawsuit...I will be the first to sign up for a class action suit.

First hand testamony is always desireable in determining the truth, however, when second hand and third hand testamony is given by HUNDREDS...credibility gravitates to their testamonies. The majority of folks at GS are anti twi...no question about it...there's a reason for that. I could easily give a personal FIRST HAND testamony of how I was abused...of course people are looking for the more sensational testamonies to hang their hat on. I was not drugged or raped, but I was the recipient of false and abusive doctrines that led me into a personal cul de sac in my life. It took me time to recover from 13 years of believing the wrong stuff...my career suffered, my finances, my marriage, my family relationships,...shall I continue?... The fact is that most of us could easily give FIRST HAND testamonies as to the destructive results that our association with twi brought into our lives. Of course, suffering abuse from twi makes it easier to believe the testamonies of others who were abused in a variety of ways.