GrouchoMarxJr

CM...I don't criticize the position you take. I understand it completely. After awhile, it seems like beating a dead horse...but nevertheless, it's a dead horse that I am not finished beating. I hope you didn't take my zeal as an afront to you personally...What triggered my response was thinking about what twi has done and continues to do to people...I have no problem with you at all, my friend. I suppose my attitude is a bit like the Bob Dylan lyrics from "Masters of War"..."...and I'll stand on your grave till I'm sure that you're dead." Sometimes you just have to twist the stake after you drive it into the vampires heart.

That 50% of the world's population has never used a telephone. That the United States has never gone to war with a country that had a McDonald's franchise in it. That the average lifespan of an ant is 7 years. ...Post your obscure facts, and we will all become enlightened. :P-->

I know what ya mean coolchef...It's embarrassing to admit it, but I also recall sitting there going "wow, that's heavy man", with a little spittle running down my chin. I suppose that one reason that I am brutally honest, when posting my opinions of twi. Those bible thumpin' weasles got inside my head! I take that personally...and furthermore, the current bunch, led by Rozilla the rug muncher, are STILL crawling inside people's minds...like the alien slug that crawled into Chechov's ear, in Star Trek...they twist people's minds into self destructive servitude, destroying lives and destroying families... ...but going back to the topic of this thread :P--> I think Billy Graham is a fine man.

There are many of us here who finally "figured it out"...concerning the cornfield preacher, but then there are others...like excathedra, who have very real, first hand experiences of his abusive treatment of people. It's because of their courage to share some very ugly things that happened to them, that others can understand...and can avoid the same pitfalls. CM...I don't "need" to beat up on the guy anymore either. Hell, I left twi 18 years ago fairly unscathed. The reason that I pile it on old Vic, is because, not only does he deserve it...but so that others might wake up. Twi is still a "going concern" and there are still a lot of folks who are being "taken for a ride". Wierwille was the "founder" of this insideous little spermsickle cult and then came loy boy, the defrocked "minister"...and of course, now they have Rozilla the rug muncher. It all ties together and when the entire picture is looked at...Well, let's just say that the Grease Spot Cafe has been a tremendous asset, in regards to the "enlightment" of folks who would have otherwise, been stumbling around in wayworld, and as Socks recently said "sucking bugs off logs and calling it steak"... Maybe if twi were to forever dissolve, I might ease up a bit on them...maybe.

One of the greatest liberating factors in recovering from the twi experience is seeking out new fields of knowledge. I highly recommend that all extwiers, recently out...pursue after knowledge! Go back to college, start a new business, take some online classes in specialized fields...pick up the dreams that you put "on hold" when you went into twi and pursue them again. I know folks who went back to college in their mid thirties, after leaving twi...so you get your degree at an older age...so what? Do not get hung up on the idea that it's "too late" to do what you should have done when you were younger...IT's NOT TOO LATE TO START OVER...begin at square one, if you have to...it's well worth the effort.

Billy Graham was widely considered to be one of the top Christian leaders in the world, therefore he had a wide audience that would tune him in...Veepee wierwille, on the other hand, was an obscure wannabe that was unknown to most Christians outside of his own little cult following. Most people who HAD heard of him, considered him to be the leader of a cult who promoted heretical teachings.

Second James...To clarify, Veepee did have a glass eye (caused by the cancer that eventually killed him). Oftentimes, his followers are referred to as being "glassy eyed" as a reference to their failure to think clearly for themselves. I often think of a movie I once saw about a Voodoo witch doctor who had placed several people under his "spell"...they had glassy eyes as they mindlessly followed the orders given to them. Far from the truth?...I'm not so sure.

Johnny L...She wiped it off (with a nearby napkin) so fast that you would have thought a black widow spider had landed on her. I was horrified!

OK trivia fans...who remembers this one? I recall grifter Vic telling us at an advanced class that God had intended for BG, VPW, and Oral Roberts to work together as a team...the evangelist, the teacher and the healer. Of course, of the three Vic was the only one to really "stand on the word", therefore God gave up on Oral and Billy and gave Vic the whole shootin' match! Yep, he really said that.

I agree with dmiller...where would you start? Let's see... Victor Paul Wierwille was a self serving sexual predator who, after stealing the writings of numerous Christian authors and claiming to have written them himself, began several indoctrination programs in order to establish a large cash flow operation that would not only make him rich...but also bring the adoration of all those young people that he indoctrinated into believing that he was a "great man of God". In reality he was a cult leader whose "biblical research" was considered sophmoric at best by most biblical scholars. He was extremely dishonest as he continually fed lies concerning himself to his glassy eyed followers. He died a broken man, of a disease that he had earlier claimed was caused by "demonic possesion". His "lifetime biblical work" was buried with him by his own hand chosen successor.

I also remember Veepee's "way of life or death" teaching. I believe that this is another example of wierwille's extreme insecurity. The holy grifter from the cornfield was green with envy that Billy G was so respected and well known, while he was relegated to the position of "obscure cult leader". To be called in as an advisor by the president of the United States...to be able to fill Shea stadium or address millions on TV...grifter Vic would have sold every person in the WOW program into white slavery in exchange for the position that Billy G held. In truth, Billy is a great example of a successful preacher. As Mark said, no scandals...that alone was remarkable. From a historical point of view, Billy G will go down as one of the great evangelists, reaching millions and millions. His example of faith is an inspiration for all those seeking the same.

quote..."Didn't have to get her in a class or anything. Just two people talking common sense and love." Ain't it the truth. I seem to recall Jesus telling the pharisees what he thought of their religious "activities" and how their hearts were far from being right. The religious self righteousness that oozes from these modern day pharisees is like a disease that blinds the heart...and yes, common sense and love must quickly be abandoned in order to enter the hallowed halls of twi's "elite".

I recall being at a "closed meeting" with Veepee and Del D...(about 1977 or so...) in which Veepee talked about his "special rescue team" that was being coordinated by Del...it was all hush hush stuff. Supposedly, Del was an ex navy seal and they pulled off numerous "rescues" of twiers who had been grabbed by the deprogrammers.

quote..."Historically the Way will suck bugs off a log of your choice and call it steak if you've got money and power...." and... quote..."I mean, LCM's got as much sense as a hamster in a pig pen." Thanks, I enjoy laughing in the morning.

Let's face it, LCM's teachings and attitude concerning "rewards" was the OPPOSITE of what the bible teaches. Whether you get em or keep em is really not the point...The bible teaches that we should be motivated by love. Love is "unconditional". If I am doing something in order to receive something back...that's called "conditional"...that's nothing more than working for a paycheck...the bible says that love is not puffed up and seeketh not her own...and that is EXACTLY what LCM did...he sought his own and was puffed up to the max. That's what his teachings about "rewards" were all about...competition! He wanted to be first in line to get his...as Hammeroni said...LCM portrayed himself in AOS as the "great one" himself. What a crock of .... that was. Think about it...LCM's entire mindset concerning "Christian ministry" was that of a competitor beating his opponent in an athletic contest. Maybe it was his repressed feelings from being a bench warmer when he played football. :D-->...he taught abundant sharing the same way...always strings attached. What do I get out of it. Did Martindale ever do ANYTHING during his time in twi, that wasn't self serving? The Lord gave up his life for us...martindale gave up us for his life....

Maybe that's why nobody has heard from Martindale for awhile now...he's busy handwriting personal letters of apology to every person he abused... ...Yeah right...and I'm the fifth Beatle.

MinicorpsC...Welcome to the GSC. While in the corps, I was sent to Rome city campus for several months (back in 1979)...My impression was that the worst of the abuses came in the form of "mental abuse". Sure, everybody had a spoon...but it was the constant verbal abuse that stands out in my mind the most. Kids were brow beat for not being "God's best"...I remember vividly, watching Bob Moneyhands "reproving" little tykes on a daily basis. You could see the fear in their eyes, wondering who was gonna yell at them next...they were not allowed to be like other little kids..."more" was expected from them and they had huge portions of their childhood ripped away from them by the "Youth for Wierwille" indoctrination program. I felt very uncomfortable with the whole scene and would avoid situations where I would have to deal with kids...sorta challenging, considering where I was! ...Don't remember any pills though...

I know some folks who attend a UU church. They seem like some really well intentioned folks who find it refreshingly honest not to be brow beat by religious doctrines... Of course, my position is that if you can't develope an egocentic position of superiority based upon religious dogma, why bother? I mean...how dare them accept people at face value instead of weighing what that person believes against the REAL truth that THEY hold. ...But then again, I'm not sure I understand what "secular religion" is. Is it sorta like non-alcoholic beer?

Ok...I guess the Pope was to the catholics, what Dale Earnhart was to racing fans. Everybody in his group liked the guy...what else can ya say? Elvis?...What a great voice he had...too bad he turned into a fat slob with a serious pill addiction. Go to Graceland? Not in this lifetime. The WTC?...I never liked wholesale killing...no matter who does it...or why. Those folks had families...breaks my heart.

My pal told me a joke that was so funny, I involuntarily shot a nose rocket onto his wife's bare leg...it was hanging off of her knee like a stalagtite...needless to say, this incident stands out in my mind as one of my most embarrassing moments...Of course, my pal almost wet himself laughing.

Predisposed to sin...pure blood...the second Adam...perfect man...with or without spirit... Some interesting thoughts. Seems to me that anybody with freedom of will can choose to sin or not to sin. Genetic predisposition? They are only just beginning to understand this field. Who knows for sure...If we humans, after generations and generations of breeding...have thrown together billions of combinations of "sinful genes" that have engulfed every one of us into some sort of predisposed social disorder, no wonder God needed one guy to save us all. Sorta like being born with cement feet and wondering why you didn't make the track team. Being "born in sin" certainly raises some interesting questions as it relates to the field of genetics.

Quite a thread...I don't know whether to comment on the Pope's funeral, the WTC attacks or Elvis... Guess I will think about this for awhile...

So, going back to the original question: Why stay when you're miserable? Perhaps the nature of twi's conditioning reached down into a very vulnurable and delicate area of the individuals psyche...and perhaps the habit patterns that had developed, oftentimes motivated by fear, resulted in a form of "learned helplessness"...perhaps it was subtle, perhaps it was not. In either case, the end result was like a junkie who continues to shoot up because of the instant gratification of a desired state of mind. Both allurring and destructive in the long run.

Oldies...ok, we all chose our affiliation with twi...agreed...and we all chose to continue that affiliation...agreed...and I also agree that that were different levels of conditioning. Some folks dove in head first, while others dropped in one toe at a time. Some went in over their heads, while others waded up to their ankles. I think that I was a diver, but I stopped when it got up to my chin. :P--> When examining the various levels of involvement and conditioning, it's wise not to lose sight of what we were diving INTO. When I graduated from highschool, I was no longer a member of the football team...I got over it almost immediately. When I quit the college frat, I felt badly for about a week. The "nature" of twi's conditioning inflicts a degree of harm on the individual that oftentimes, causes them severe problems for YEARS!

Cowgirl...I appreciate you're sensitivity towards people's feelings but sometimes it takes a rolled up wet towel to wake somebody up. It's difficult to warn people of the dangers of this cult without being descriptive of what it turns people into...I simply describe what I believe to be true and if the shoe fits...take it off, that's the point. The folks who are still "standing" with twi, are living, breathing, caring, human beings whose lives are extremely valuable. They deserve better than being scammed by this insideous cult. I spent 13 years of my life "standing" with twi and I know what I know. My hopes are that any "innies" who might read this, will pause...and begin asking themselves some honest questions.