GrouchoMarxJr

As far as his time in college...I understand that he was a phys ed. major who rode the bench for the football team. Donny F. and Dave S. were both instrumental in recruiting Martindale into twi. His rise in the leadership ranks of twi was based mainly on 2 things...Wierwille enjoyed his "firey" teaching style...and Martindale kissed Wierwille's butt more than anyone else. If I could communicate one thing about the man, it would be that he went off the "deep end" and became insane with delusions of grandeur. His heavy handed, slash and burn policies highlighted his time as president. On his watch, twi lost the vast majority of it's followers. His demands for loyalty oaths, his obsessive "homo hunts", and his numerous adulterous affairs convinced thousands to walk away...Ironically, the man credited with being the most loyal to Wierwille, spearheaded a campaign to discredit most of Wierwille's teachings and purge twi of his influence. Martindale's saw himself as a modern day Joshua, representing God to the rest of mankind...In reality, he was a self absorbed buffoon who enjoyed bullying people...today, he unloads trucks for a living.

Why does nervecurve remind me of an old branch leader I once had? Signals...Tell it like it is.

This is the only place where folks understand what happened with twi...and why. I invested 13 years of my life in that insideous little cornfield cult...and the Greasespot is a unique place to revisit issues that at one time were of monumental importance to me. This placed has allowed me to tie up some loose ends...to put things into perspective and to share with others, my own observations. It's important to be able to make sense out of the whole thing... Besides, I feel that I have made some good friends here.

Nervecurve says..."The bible is the boss..." Greasespot cafe is NOT a Christian forum. Do not assume that everyone here shares your beliefs. ...Back to the subject of the thread: The seeds of destruction were planted when Ermal and Vic stuck their shovels in the ground at the old Wierwille farm. Veepee's false doctrines and evil lifestyle set the precedent for everything else that followed. Martinfart was too stupid and too arrogant to continue the scam...everybody saw through him like a cheap suit...and just like a cheap suit, the whole thing unraveled. wordwolf is correct as to why Vic chose king okie as his replacement...nobody kissed Vics butt the way that loy did.

I met the guy, I knew the guy, I spent time with the guy... I won't refute the positive experiences that many have attested to...if you liked pfal and you think it helped you....great. Personally, I will not forget that he lied in God's name...that he used and abused people in God's name...that he made himself rich in God's name...that he made himself to be some "great one", in God's name. In my opinion, pfal was about half wrong...and he stole it from other people and claimed it was his own...MANY of the teachings were designed to control people and get their money...(Christians should be prosperous, etc.) It's hard for me to overlook those thngs. It's not a matter of being unforgiving or being bitter...it's simply a matter of being honest. That's who he was, that's what he did. I've been out for 17 years and I am way past all of this in my life...it's ancient history with very little, if any, emotional impact on me anymore. Should God forgive him?...Of course (or we would all be in trouble)...but I wouldn't put him in charge of a "Christian" ministry again. Mixed feelings?...Not for me.

I never took Chris Geer's class...( he always made my skin crawl )...but I did get my hands on the "book version" of his class, "Walking in God's Power"...Geer never strays from Wierwille's doctrine. His class is almost an exact duplicate of pfal. Geer was a bus driving pimp with delusions of grandeur. Unlike Martindale, Geer felt no need to "come up with something of his own"...rather, he played the role of the "faithful martyr who dedicated himself to preserving the works of his father in the word"... Geer's public teaching abilities were marginal at best...he always did his best work in the "back room".

Jim...I see what you mean. I think perhaps we are hitting on one of the reasons that a lot of folks turn away from God when they leave twi. It took me awhile before I was able to seperate what I really believe from what twi packaged and called their own. These days I am more inclined towards trying to be a good Christian than I am in "working the word"...The early Christians had no new testament to read or classes to take...they relied on their own personal experiences with the holy spirit. Wierwille "queered" the entire Christian experience by turning it into a step by step program...turning spiritual experiences into mechanical excercizes, removing Christ from his active position as head of the body, and turning the bible itself, into an object of worship. When I read about Christ dying on the cross...I don't think about whether there were 2 or 4 that died with him...I don't study the Greek words to determine the exact useage of a certain word...I don't break it down gramatically or refer to the bullsheeta text...I simply think about Christ dying on the cross. I try to focus on what is being said, not how it is said.

When Waydale emerged and then Greasespot...a lot of people became informed. The lawsuits and all the other accusations has forced twi into a defensive posture. I'm sure they are minding their P's and Q's and trying to avoid any more bad publicity. My guess is that they have "softened" the way in which they treat their followers. Maybe they are finally figuring out that all the heavy handed tactics are counterproductive. In any case, twi still teaches wrong doctrine and leads people into mental bondage.

Raf...You do make a good point. I suppose it's better to be bored to death than to be spit on and abused. With their current track record of court settlements and other accusations, they are probably being more careful these days.

I'm believing for a travel agent with fire engine red drapes!

I'm happy to say that I never had to sit through king okie's wap class...listening to him rant and rave during the late 70's was quite enough for me. I have read numerous posts concerning the wap class, and I must say, that it's a real testament as to how truly stupid and arrogant the man was. Martindale seemed to delight in coming up with things on his own. New "insights" that only HIS spiritual mind was able to ascertain...While the rest of us weren't even competent enough to handle our own financial decisions, king okie was receiving divine revelation, that revealed the hidden and deep secrets of life...like Eve being a lesbian.

Jim...I think I understand what your asking but the phrase itself "The Bible is the revealed word and will of God"...was the mantra of Veepee Wierwille. Just hearing that phrase triggers an entire way of thinking...and I left the world of "waybrain" a long time ago. My ideas about the bible today have very little in common with the fundamentalist approach made by Wierwille. I think there is information in the bible that can help a person realize and experience truth...but as far as twi's approach to "biblical accuracy" and dotting every "I" and crossing every lambano...I think Wierwille took it to an extreme and used the bible in a way that was not "intended".

Make no mistake about it, pfal was a huge money maker for the cornfield grifter. I recall when the "books were opened" and the figures became public record...Twi made millions and millions of dollars from running classes...not only pfal, but all the other little ditties that they threw at us...Think of all the other classes that we were required to take (if we wanted to grow spiritually, that is)...Listening to Walter teach "The renewed mind" class, was akin to Chinese water toture...and who could ever forget little Johnny T., explaining to us all, how the hierarchy of twi was the same thing as the body of Christ...and I would be remiss if I didn't give an honorable mention to "Keys to biblical research" by who was it? Rhonda or somebody? My Gawd, that would have been considered a violation of the Geneva Conventions, had we been subjected to it as prisoners of war...and we PAID for every one of these lemons! Between the ABS money, the classes and the "Advances" that ran in every state...twi amassed a fortune. Even with having to liquidate their campuses and sell off a lot of their assets...even with the huge drop in revenue...the shisters in charge now, can live comfortably for the rest of their miserable lives, off of whats left. Twi was a "Christian" organization by reference only. In practice, they were a combination of Amway and Ron Pompeil selling vegamatics, with a thin veneer of "Christianity". They scammed and conned...and made a ton of money. Hardly the example we see in the bible, as to how Christian leaders are to conduct themselves.

If those numbers were from 6 years ago, I imagine it has shrunk even more by now. As long as the current BOD maintains the appearance of a "Christian ministry" and obeys all the rules for a tax exempt organization...they can continue to live high on the hog. They simply go through the motions...maintain their "classes", their basic structure of "fellowships", tapes, meetings, various events....makes no difference if there are only a handful of followers...they get to keep control of the money and their lifestyles. They do not have the legal right to dissolve the whole thing and split up the loot, they MUST maintain the organization and go through the motions. I suppose it's easy enough to rationalize the diminished numbers to their followers..."We are the REMNANT who stand in the gap!" "The truth isn't dependant upon numbers!" "Jesus only had 12 disciples!", etc., etc. So.....does Rozilla or any of the others REALLY give a rat's behind how many there are, as long as they can maintain their access to the gravy train? It's certainly not the current "flow" of ABS money that keeps the ship floating...it's the ABS money that WE all gave over a period of about 25 years! The 50 million (or however much it is), is invested and generates revenue. They could live the rest of their lives on the interest from that money. So there it is...What we once believed was a growing Godly ministry with vision and purpose...is in reality, a cash cow for a few scumbags that sold us down the river and grabbed the dough. Class action?....Might be worth a try.

Aw shucks.... :P-->

Good points, one and all. In my mind, the bottom line is that people liked Veepee and looked at him like a father/grandfather figure...while snarly old loy was much too abrasive and never gave the impression that he gave a rats foot about anyone. Also, Wierwille was the founder, shrouded in legendary tales...while loyboy was one of us...we were his peers and we watched him from the beginning as a young guy...there was nothing "father-like" about him.

Socks...Sounds like a really good bunch...I had a similar experience when I attended a small church for awhile. Very honest and caring people...no pretense, no pressure, just good Christian folks. Being a part of a "truly Christian" church, for me, was very humbling. I realized how very arrogant I had been in my twi days...and yes, I felt ashamed. I was also thankful for a new outlook on Christianity...an outlook that genuinely cares about people and not what I can "get out of them"...

...When twi first got rolling, it was because of wierwille's personality...even martinpuke had a certain "stage presense"...but Rozilla? How in the world can ANYBODY sit there and listen to this rugmuncher spitting out wayspeak? She couldn't inspire a field mouse to eat cheese. A cult without a cult leader? What could possibly draw new people into twi? They are a ship without a rudder that has grounded itself on the beaches of mediocrity.

Interesting enough, is that the early Christians didn't even have the new testament to study. Oh sure, Paul sent letters to certain cities, but were they all put together in book form and called "God's word"? I believe that it was more about personal relationship with the lord than it was "working the word", as wierwille liked to call it. Twi was totally clueless...It's sorta like the early Christians were driving the car while twi only studied the owners manual. Of course with their "absent Christ" doctrine, they had no lord in which to have a relationship with...thus, instead of knowing him, they read about him...instead of functioning in the body of Christ, with Christ as the head...twi functioned in the "waytree" with wierwille/martinpuke as the head. It was all superficial, it was all wrong, it was all sick. Truly Christian?...I would say not.

Paying the corps as full time staff, is a perfect example of the stupidity of Martindale. The guy never was too damn bright, but when he entered the world of "every thought I have is God's directives for all of mankind", he became a lost soul. I think when wierwille wrapped the mantle around lcm's neck, he cut the blood off to his already feeble brain. King okie became the GREAT ONE...He stumbled around spewing out all his asinine ideas...and his asskissing bunboys all said "yup yup". It almost seemed like the stupidity of what he was saying was proof that he was getting revelation, because nobody with half a brain would ever come up with such a lame idea with their "five senses". ...But the bottom line was that when martinpuke spoke...critical examination of what he was saying, was forbidden. Logic was thrown out in favor of mythology. The experience and knowledge of a pool of talented people, was replaced with the whims and outbursts of a mentally disturbed egomaniac. The results were predictible. There's not much future in following the dictates of stupidity.

...I don't know, maybe it's not such a bad idea. Half pig/ half human...maybe they could be trained to do all those jobs that us ordinary Americans won't do.... ;)-->

outandabout....the title of the thread is the info... ...I think Dr. Phil is a cult leader... :D-->

Having known grifter Vic on a personal level for many years, I must say that George's comparison to Al Capone is a good one. Wierwille knew that he had control of his followers...he took that for granted. He craved the adoration of his followers more than anything and was able to maintain that, even as he was horribly abusing many of them. The idea that a religious cult is based upon the personality of it's charismatic leader, rings true in the case of Vic Wierwille...evidenced by the posting of wierwille apologists, defending their "hero", even to this day.

A thread entitled "Smells of the Way" would not be complete without mentioning the distinct fragrance that wafted across the Emporia campus when the wind was blowing from the local slaughter house...it was enough to make your eyes water and your teeth rot.

Was it worth it? oldies explains it all, right out of his twi handbook. The same answer you would get from any twi follower, regurgitating the party line.