GrouchoMarxJr

Enlightening thread, to say the least... I was sent to Rome city campus (I was a non-parent in the 10th corps)...for about 4 months, and although it was less rigorous than Emporia, I found it very disturbing... Everybody walking around with a wooden spoon in their pocket...kids getting whacked every 2 minutes...a very un-natural feeling about the whole scene...kids seemed inhibited and scared... After I was there for a few weeks, Bob Moneyhands tells me, that even though I am not a parent, I should still carry a wooden spoon around with me... ...(never know when you're gonna have to swat one of those little boogers)...I was horrified!!! At first I refused to carry the damn spoon...finally, somebody "assigned" me one! I carried it in my back pocket for show but NEVER did I use it...not ever! Maybe some of those kids thought I didn't like them, because I always avoided them as much as possible...saw a bunch of kids in front of me, I would walk the other direction...why?...I couldn't bear the thought of ever hitting a child with that damn spoon...couldn't do it, wouldn't do it... ...and I felt GUILTY about it too...I thought I was wrong, because afterall, the fartblossom with the rev. title on his name tag, had said so...but in hindsight, I see now that there was something inside of me that wouldn't buy it... I should have taken that spoon and b*tch slapped Bob Moneyhands with it....

...Beautifuuuuuuuulllllllll Ohiooooooo... I can still hear that wretched song in my mind. Every copy of that song, in existance, should be thrown into the fountain of living waters...or perhaos I should call it the fountain of deadly waters...and heard no more.

The whole thing is absolutely ridiculous!... Martindale starts teaching stuff that should have been included in a Dean Koontz book and then the "leadership" is suposed to keep a straight face while they "support" it. In order to blindly follow lcm's teachings, one must either shut their cognitive processes down completely...or drink so much kool aid that their brains are totally saturated with it to the point that they resemble the town folks who were taken over by the pods in "Invasion of the body snatchers"... In either case, these people live in their own little demented world, where up is down and left is right...after you are out for 18 years ( ), wayworld will be so far removed from anything that is relevant to your life, that it will seem like a bad dream that happened a long, long time ago...I feel sorry for these poor chumps that still live in this little cruel world...not much future in investing yourself in a misguided cult that is dying.

I think it's fair to say that Veepee was full of something other than God... False prophet? Maybe you're giving him too much credit...flim flam man is more like it. I'm not sure that he had enough impact to even register on the "spritual scale"...the guy was self absorbed by his own ego and vices, anything he taught that WAS right, was because the people whose books he copied may have been right on some things...Wierwille might as well have been selling that hair spray for bald spots, for all the good he did...he was all flash and all talk...he was a freakin' salesman...anything that came out of his mouth should be likened to the noise that my dishwasher makes.

Well...it doesn't surprise me that the cornfield preacher stole that one too. To answer oldiesman...yeah, if I would have known then (1975) that Wierwille was a lying, stealing, wannabe...I would have have split then and there.

Oh c'mon now...don't you realize that all the decent, God fearin', Christian folk are fast asleep by the witching hour? That way, all of the nasty, evil, sexually perverted, pond scum can dance around the bonfires of decadence and evil...without being disturbed! While the loving Christians are dreaming of dropping their hard earned money into the horn of plenty, the evildoers and necromancers frolick around a different "horn of plenty"...reveling in their sick desires to inflict the innocent with demons and decadence... ...unless, that is, you happen to work third shift at the Ralston plant. :P-->

"Was it really twi that was so bad...Or was it many of the people who made up twi?" I'm not sure that you can seperate the two. There was the twi doctrine...and there were a mulitplicity of people who acted out their own particular version of "way brain"...some folks were kind and loving and some were nasty and deserving of a severe beating... It's like any other organization...good ones and bad ones...Of course, the real problem was that even the good ones were subject to the false doctrines of Wierwille...Before you leave twi, the people are the main problem...after you leave, it's the doctrines that you have to deal with and sort out...

What twi is to the bible, Ron Pompeil is to hiding bald spots with spray paint...It seems apparent that twi impacted people's opinions of the bible, one way or the other... "From one extreme to the other"...sure, a person's spiritual life is a very deep and personal thing...to find out that the wizard was just some guy standing behind a curtain has short circuited a lot of folks. Personally, I view twi as a continuation of the "traveling preacher tent shows" of a previous generation...the Elmer Gantry of the post VietNam era. At any rate, Veepee Wierwille impacted the Christian world about as much as a junebug impacts the front of an 18 wheeler going down the highway. It was only those of us who were directly involved (and were HAD)...that give a rats a$$ about any of it... ...Of course we are going to rip them a new one, every chance we get...because they deserve it and it helps other people to become knowledgeable of the facts and decide to hightail it out of there. As far as the bible is concerned...that's a personal issue. twi cured me of "group think" forever...Is there a God?... my twi experience does nothing to encourage or discourage my faith...my faith is personal and it is strong.

GOIA...Welcome to the cafe. Glad you're here. :)-->

Ah yes, the glass eye...perhaps it could be mounted on a setting and worn as an amulet...sorta like the one that Dr. Strange wore...warding off evil with it's mysterious power.

Remember those fiascos? Everything had to be perfect. A pack of Kool shorties, make sure you break the little mints into small pieces for him...and then there was getting his room ready for him...it was like a head of state was visiting...it sickens me when I think of how we kissed that old pervert's foot for him...I think all the mints were to hide the smell of the booze on his breath...you all know that Wierwille was drunk by 10:00 every morning?

During my 13 years in TWI state penitentiary, I was witenss to some horrifically run meetings...people who were overly nervous, people who were confused, scared, had no personalities, had no idea what they were talking about...boring, stupid, offensive...you name it. They trained people to string chairs and then put them in charge of running meetings with a couple hundred people in attendance...it was ridiculous.

You're right Bliss, it's gonna take time. I've been out for 18 years now...and all I can tell you is that life is MUCH better without twi...has been for a long long time. My spirituality is more personal and real without twi...life makes more sense without twi...my relationships with other people are more real...It's great to interact with people that are not afraid to speak their minds, never having to worry about following the latest doctrinal script from the leaders...each person allowed to have an opinion of their own! It's refreshing and it's honest. Seems to me that being involved with twi is like a man with a pimple on his foot...after awhile, you just get tired of it. ;)-->

Maybe that's why I never climbed that high up on the knarley waytree...I was very aware of the climate of "men pleasing", and I resented the hell out of it. When I went into residence in the 10th corps, the place was full of asskissers, vying to be noticed. Living in the eyes of other people was the standard operating method in twi. I always thought that if God was choosing his leaders, then It wouldn't matter if ANYONE knew who I was. I watched as certain people "rose to the top" with their gregarious personalities and their adept know how at smootching the right butts...voila, limb leader! No thanks...none of that for me. A number of years ago, I met this old farmer. He was wearing raggedy overalls, was missing a few teeth and was not overly articulate...As we talked, he looked me in the eye and said "I ain't got much, and I ain't much to look at...but I kiss no man's foot!"...he smiled, winked and walked away with a gait in his walk that only a free man feels.

The guy reported his pot plants stolen to the cops? Ummm...why didn't he just mention the plasma TV and leave the pot plants out of the complaint?... As Bob Marley called it..."The healer of the nations" ;)-->

In the midst of his unorthodox belief system, Spong makes some lucid observations of the religious, right wing zealots... Progressives SHOULD stick it to the conservatives...

...And I want to add that I'm sure there are small, independant churches, out in the country maybe, with a pure hearted pastor and a sweet fellowship of decent Christian folks, who love each other and watch out for each other...and that's a wonderful thing...but I think that there are plenty of big money churches and denominations that are very politically minded, ego driven, money makin', self righteous hypocrites out there...especially on TV. The Europeans already think that we're buffoons...I hope they don't catch wind of Benny Hinn and his pals on American TV...they'd laugh themselves to death.

Excellant posts...thought provoking. It seems that what passes for Christianity today, in our country has little resemblance to anything that I see in the bible...the "gospel" that IS taught is often simply an "obligatory front" for the REAL agenda that is going on in the political, egotistical, and oftentimes ritualistic organization...again, money is usually a major consideration. The Christianity that I see in the bible is based on the individual and their faith (or lack thereof)...with an emphasis on a private and personal relationship with God and then, having that fruit of the sprit in your life... Sure, they met in groups...but it was NOTHING at all like Wierwille taught with his mutated and twisted "waytree"...For sure there are spiritually minded people within the church system...but I think it's in spite of the system, not because of it.

So Martindale taught that reaching into "daddy's cookie jar" could open your mind to demons huh?...Funny stuff...That was one of the staples of Veepee's teaching on gettin' revelation...lcm really went off the "deep end" didn't he? He felt that he had to discredit a lot of Veepee's doctrines, which meant that old craigers must have thought that he "arrived" at a far superior spiritual position than Vic had attained...lcm, as he danced around in his leotards, figured that he knew more spiritual truth than any man EVER!...In other words, the man was a raving lunatic! Spitting all over people as he demanded the loyalty oath...At that point, he should have been taken away in a straight jacket and they should have let Walter run the show... ...and this guy was the "expert" on the spirit realm huh? and today, he's working at Bali's, picking up other men...

The Way Tree...one of my favorite subjects. Not only did Wierwille take the place of the absent Christ, but the way tree took the place of the spiritual body of Christ...Instead of the Lord directing his body, it was Wierwille managing the hierarchy...money from the classes, money from the roa, money from all the advances...money, money and more money...let's buy some jets and a castle in Scottland! What a scam the waytree was...super egos abounded, people were subjugated and controlled...

Seems to me that the body of Christ functions on a "different level" than man made organizations...not to say that an organization can't be a useful "tool" for the Lord's use...I imagine that some are more "useful" than others...but nevertheless, spirituality needs to come in an individual way... Tribes/Families...sure, the herding dynamics of us pitiful humans and how we interact...ego's, power hungry jerks, nice folks...all of it...I suppose that's one reason that the bible leaves out any mention of orgaizations when it comes to describing the body of Christ... ...and also describes why Christian groups are so divided.

Why is it, that Christian organizations are so divided? Even in small towns...each denomination circles the wagons in their own little world. Twi was a cult, but are there not "cult characteristics" in every denomination in America? True spirituality is not dependant on affiliation with an organization...It seems as soon as a group of people organize, they have to "call it by a name", this of course, precipitates the following recipe: leaders assets followers heirarchy leagalism control bondage corruption I think it's up to each individual to make their own spiritual life, connect with God, one on one...decide within yourself...be real. That's what it's gotta be about!...after that...associating with others is great, but the "association" itself is not a substitute for your own connection to God.

You make some very good points Roy, and ask some important questions... If twi was bad, what makes the splinter groups good?... ...Some people believe that what twi taught, was good, but the leadership turned bad. ...Others thought that what twi taught was baloney as well as thinking that the leadership was "out to lunch". ...And then there is a third group that thinks the leaders were "out to lunch", but what they taught, although not totally correct, had some very sound teachings mixed in with the baloney. So...I suppose it's a natural evolution of seperating, as people go in different directions, all distinguishing themselves with their own little "niche" of Christian specialty, their own variation. But you're right Roy, when you said "depends on the hearts of each person so I am not sure"...That's exactly right! God doesn't look at organizations...He looks on the hearts of individuals. I'm sure that each of the splinter groups, as well as members of any church in America, are good people...people with faith. People who live with the spirit of God within..When we all stand before God, I doubt that nametags will impress Him.

You're exactly right hiway29...The Sideney fairgrounds was a good time...twi had less control because they were only renting this facility...it was right smack in the middle of town and yeah, I remember the protesters outside the fence...hdqrts was a totally controlled environment...I seem to recall that the roa at hdqrts in 1977 or 78 (right after Sidney)...was pretty loose...very unstructured and a lot of sponteneity...people still felt relaxed and just spent their time wandering around smiling. It took several years before they took the fun out of it...the structured twig times, the mandatory job assignments, etc., etc....why couldn't they just let people do want they wanted? What a bunch of self absorded, legalistic, control freaks. It was all about THEM...how THEY would decide what's best for "gawds people"...forget all that crap about the body of Christ, we're going for a ride back to the old testament...when Moses hisself was the MAN OF GOD for the whole world...Wierwille's entire structure was based on the "Moses model"...and then the "mantle" was passed down to king okie...the hammer came down! No more roa!...gotta get rid of all those homo spirits, by gawd! (Was he including his wife and Rosie in that hunt?)...or perhaps it was his own repressed homosexual tendencies?...he kinda decided that all that fun people were having at the rock, was damn evil... ...Ah yes, memories of the rock.

Hammer...funny stuff. Ain't it the truth. The Cohen brothers could make a great film out of this. Maybe get Quintin Tarantino to play Martinfart and Kathleen Bates for Rozilla...use special effects to portray the spirit realm...(maybe even a cameo of lcm himself dancing around in his tights)... ...It's really not that amazing that he came up with this unbelievable mutation of a doctrine, afterall, the man is highly deranged...what's amazing, is that so many people believed him!