GrouchoMarxJr

Brother Speed has figured it out... That's exactly what it is!...cockydoodie. ...Served daily by "rare and special" people, as Mike would say, to the rest of us "normal" people...yum yum...thank you sir, may I have seconds?

WE normal people?...and who decides who the normal people are?...You? God had to search far and wide for very special and rare people...says who?...You? You assert that the "spiritual experiences" of other "special and rare" people form the "basis" for our right doctrine...What makes a person "special and rare"?...Getting drunk and raping women? Am I to assume that YOU have decided that I am a "normal" person and not a "special and rare" person?...If so, how did you conclude this? I noticed that you included yourself in the category of being a "normal" person when you used the word "We"...Seeing that you have concluded that you, yourself, are not a "special and rare" person, why do you believe that your spiritual insights are more valid than anyone else's here at the GreaseSpot?...especially when you define the "special and rare" people as those "who could tell the difference between senses and spirit and between the true God and satan"? By you're own words...You are not a "special and rare"person, therefore you cannot tell the difference between senses and spirit, nor can you tell the difference between the true God and satan. Of course, the message you convey is contrary to what the book of Ephesians says about every Christian having the abilities that you attribute to only "special and rare" people. In fact, your words cause division within the body of Christ because you falsely manufacture 2 categories of people within the body of Christ...those who are "special and rare" and those who are "normal"...or as I like to say, the "haves" and the "have nots"...this is totally contrary to what the bible teaches. Is it any wonder that people think you are a buffoon?

I finally wandered into this forum...Nobody has posted here for about a year, so I thought I would "revive it". I'm just south east of Columbus...The great city of Lancaster...been here for 3 years now and have no plans of leaving. I wonder how many of us Greasespotters live in Ohio?...

...Bringing king okie back would be like be sprinkling dead bugs on a cold pizza... ...You might not notice it with the first bite, but as soon as you found out about it, you'd be sticking your finger down your throat.

sami...I'd like to welcome you here as an "official poster"...Your post was kindhearted and respectful...thanks for sharing something that is very personal and for giving us all a glimpse of your heart... ...I didn't know your dad, but I somehow feel that he would be very proud of you.

...But do you really think that he would give up his job as the head of a fortune 500 company? ;)

Word over the world? As I recall, this was the "lofty" goal of Veepee... He compared his "ministry" to Paul's...that's quite a comparison. How many people in the Christian world have heard of Paul of Tarsus? How many people in the Christian world have heard of Veepee W, or LCM, or Rosalie Riverrat? As HCW pointed out, there are over 6 billion people in this world. I think that when Vic died, Martinfail realized that he would NEVER achieve the goal of word over the world...so instead of admitting that the goal was unattainable...he simply decided to arrogantly proclaim that we have achieved the goal! ...and a lot of people BELIEVED HIM!!!!! If word over the world had anything to do with twi doctrine becoming the prevalent Christian dogma in the Christian world...they not only failed miserably, they were relegated to a position of almost total obscurity! Those who HAVE heard of twi's doctrine...have tossed them into the same cookie jar that contains the Moonies, the Hari Krishnas and other's of the same ilk. Word over the world indeed!...Hey Rosie, if you reached the goal, then why has the number of twi followers fallen by about 90%??? Why did you have to sell off the Emporia and Rome city facilities??? You would think that by reaching your goal of WOW, people would be lined up trying to get into the meetings! The money should be rolling in by the truck full! Talk about living in denial...these fakers live in a totally "pretend world"...it's a pathetic situation. Another question for Rozilla...if the goal of word over the world has been achieved, then why did the man who led the ministry into this realized goal get defrocked and thrown out on his arse???

...I agree with Oak. Those who attack other's beliefs are standing on very shakey ground. For those whose "Christian orientation" was with twi, a foundation of "being right" was laid within their hearts and minds. This mindset leads to an elitist attitude, which oftentimes is arrogant and causes divisions amoung people. "Fits with a mathematical exactness and scientific precision"...Oh really? There seems to be a contradiction of sorts, between this idea and the idea of "taking it by faith"... In twi, a person was encouraged to "believe God" (which requires a decision based on faith that cannot be verified or proven)...and then they went about trying to verify and prove it! Believing in God and "rightly dividing the bible" are two different things entirely. "Faith cometh by hearing and hearing the word of God"... Ok...Faith needs an object. If you've never heard of God, it might be difficult to believe in Him. However, once a person has faith, or decides not to have faith, why do they insist on intellectualizing the process and then attempt to turn it into something they can verify and prove, as if it were a secular study? The new testament was not around during the beginning of the Christian church. So what did they do? They spent their time doing word studies from the old testament?..Gimme a break. Paul wrote the church epistles based on his personal EXPERIENCES (which Wierwille told us not to trust)...In fact, the bible is a collection of people's experiences...(some people call Paul's experiences "receiving revelation")...if that's true, isn't "receiving revelation an experience? So what's my point?... ...My point is that Christianity is about having personal experiences yourself...not dissecting the written testamony of OTHER people's experiences. Wierwille distorted the Christian lifestyle which led to a bunch of people "being right from an academic perspective"...and of course, this led to what Oak is talking about. If you're academically "right", then anyone who does not agree with you is "wrong"...and then the confrontational attacks begin. Two crucified or four crucified..."what deeeference does it make?"...In my opinion...not much. Arguing over what the bible "really says" is not worth the division that comes from it...not if a person is endeavoring to live a Christian life. I am not suggesting that Christian shouldn't read their bibles...but keep your opinions to yourself! There's a huge difference between "preaching the good news" and communicating your "expertise" in Greek, figures of speech, orientalisms, dotting "I's" and crossing "T's". Wierwille and Martindale had to be "right" because of their own egos and their own insecurities. The message seems to be, if I am more academically astute than you...then I must know God better than you...and of course this is a departure from knowing God through your own personal experiences. So...when Oak says "My point is not to argue the authenticity of the bible with you or any other bible believers...but to point out the weakness of the position of those on this board who are quick to attack other's beliefs."... ...I agree with him. Attacking other's beliefs is a weakness. From the Christian point of view, it's about personal faith, not academic arrogance...but that's just my opinion.

Happy birthday to a guy who gets paid money for ripping people's teeth out of their mouths...ouch May the tooth fairy heep blessings upon your soul.

I'm not sure that lesbianism is a problem or a sin. In fact I have no problems with lesbians at all...Why not share your Christian faith with her and leave the "lesbianism is sin" part out of the conversation? ...and I DID suspect that Galen had homosexual tendencies...because he giggled when satori kissed him. B)

...When asked whether certain books were left out of the bible that should have been included, and whether certain books were excluded that should have been put in...Wierwille claimed that "Gawd protects His word"...but then he goes on to explain that there were deliberate forgeries and mistranslations...hmmm, I guess Gawd had the ability to make sure all the books in the bible were inserted correctly...but He dropped the ball when it came to actually protecting the contents of those books... Maybe when the bible was put together there was a lot of guys like Mike involved with the process? ...My inclination is to look within myself. When I'm on my death bed, I will be there alone...my denomination gets to stay here and keep breathing. When I look at the bible and consider "Christian doctrine", it seems like most of it is written to the individual...encouraging them to EXPERIENCE the spiritual reality for themselves...(ie...trust in the Lord with all thine heart...the spirit beareth witness with our spirit, walk circumspectly, etc etc etc etc)...the bible seems to be leading people toward their own individual experience. So what's the problem? Wierwille taught people NOT to trust their own experiences...but to trust in the "word of Gawd" (which was his interpretation)...In other words, it's a CONTROL issue. If what I tell you what "the truth" is instead of you relying on your own experiences...I control you...it's that simple. It's kinda like someone spending all their time studying the owners manual for their car, and they never actually drive the car themselves...The bible encourages people to "have fellowship with God"...or in other words...to experience God for themselves. Not to merely read about it, over and over and over and over again...but to develope their own experiences. It's not supposed to be an intellectual excercise of merely learning what the book says, but to experience what the book says. Wierwille ( and he's certainly not alone in this), would always "trump" your experience by negating it and sending you back to the realm of non-experience. The realm where spiritual reality was not experienced but was filtered through his control mechanisms which gave him mog persona and bolstered his ego. That's why twi doesn't trust people to make their own decisions. I look at the bible as a "portal" that leads to experiences.

..."Thank you Way productions, that was tremendous" ummmm....I always thought that Way productions was a bit less than tremendous...but then again, I like Yucko the clown. I rented this stupid movie from Blockbuster...can't even remember the name of the stupid thing...but it starred Yucko...and he WAS funny. Quote..."What better way could there be to introduce a new person to our Biblical research, teaching and fellowship ministry than by showing them a recent copy of the Sunday teaching service?" Since you asked...How about showing them all the threads in the Grease Spot cafe, and what happens to a person who is foolish enough to put any stock in this cornfield cult?

Quote..."What better way could there be to redeem the time than to listen to the great teachings from God's word-the edifying and encouraging Way Prod-on the Sunday Teaching Service?" How about drinking some cold beer and watching Yucko the Clown?

Thanks Scout... B) Looking back today, I'm really amazed that even Martinfail could have been that arrogant and stupid. What WAS he thinking? AOS! ... :lol: :lol: :lol: I wonder if he had been in the military instead of playing college football...the production would have been called "Storm Troopers Of Our God's Eternity"? We would have called it Stooge... Scene One...General Martinfail, dancing in his camoflague leotards, lobs a hand grenade into the midst of the devil spirits, resulting in the spattering of blood and entrails all over the stage...Sgt. Fury, move over.... The production ends with Craig receiving the "heavenly medal of honor", while the rest of the cast chants "All hail the mighty one, all hail the mighty one"...

I took the class in July of 1975...it cost me $85. A few months later, it went up to $100. The next year Veepee raised the price to $200! (it eventually went back to $100)...I remember Veepee explaining why he raised it to $200...He said that people were upset that he raised it from $85 to $100...his response, which was angrily said, was (and I'm paraphrasing here) "So, you didn't like me raising it 15 bucks? Ok baby, next year it's gonna double to 200 buck! It's a challenge to your believing!" There's a reason why we call him the grifter...he was slick. He said it with a straight face and even stormed out of the room when he finished saying it...the waybrained minions sat there with their mouths agape, believing that the "MOG" had just "spoken for God"...meanwhile in the back room, Vic was tipping back another drambuie, winking at Howard and saying "this oughta help with that new college we're buying in Kansas, by the way Howie, ya got me some fresh meat waiting in the back of the motorcoach?"

I heard Wierwille say more than once that he charged for the class so that the person taking it would be committed to attending every seesion on time to get their money's worth...the charge for the class was acually a "benefit" to the new student. ;)--> What he failed to mention was that if he didn't charge money for the class, he would have to go out and find a real job... I agree with Socks 100%...The heart of a minister should be to freely give. The ministry of reconciliation has nothing to do with money.

Yeah...I never took it and have a strong opinion about it...I guess that angers some folks...especially the ones who DID take it...and I understand that. I've never laid my head on the railroad tracks with a locomotive coming either... ...but I DID have a fairly extensive experience dealing with the folks who tried to recruit me to take it...I saw the group think...and as previously stated, they all took it because JAL gave it a thumbs up...no more thought was necessary for these clowns because of JAL's endorsement. They all got ****** at me when I told them JAL's endorsement wasn't enough for me...I wanted to look into it from other points of view...I went to the anti-Momentus sites and printed what I found...handed them out to all the Momentus grads and asked them to address the issues with me and answer my questions...seemed reasonable to me. ...But instead of an honest dialogue, I got the "haves and have nots" treatment...you remember that one don't you? It's when the whole group exchanges those "knowing looks" with each other and then proceed to avoid answering any questions...I was told "just take the training and you'll see for yourself." Reminded me too much of "just take pfal and you'll see for yourself"...it became obvious to me that either you were an enlightened "Momentus grad", or you were a schmuck...you had to do this to "really" be a part of the group, before they would accept you... Sorry...that sealed it for me. I voted for individuality instead...told them I wasn't interested and they turned into rattlesnakes towards me...and I WAS told that if I wasn't willing to confess my secret sins to other people, that I "had something to hide"... Maybe I just fell in with the "wrong people"...but it also dawned on me...all these folks who were so convinced of Momentus, had also been convinced of the cult they all used to belong to...I began to see a pattern and decided to slip out the back door. From what I gather, these trainings have varied somewhat in content and presentation, depending on where you took it. You pay your money and you take your chances... I seem to recall a story of Jesus talking to a prostitute...as I recall, he didn't invoke any scream therapy, tell her to get out of the lifeboat, scream at her and play loud music until she was reduced to tears, give her homework assignments and tell her to go find her "buddy" but not until after she signed the hold harmless clause, he didn't make her revisit her sins and announce them to everybody in town...in fact I believe that he confronted those who were accusing her and he was then kind towards her and simply told her to sin no more and left her in peace... I don't need to take Momentus to have a basic inderstanding of it's format and it's techniques, especially when there's plenty of negative testamonies from many of those who DID take it...

I recall, while in residence, that Donna told us that SHE picked out Craig's wardrobe for him, because his taste in clothes were terrible...maybe she dressed him as a buffoon on purpose...part of his cuckold humiliation? Hmmm...at least he didn't wear his AOS costume.

...Even Bullinger was considered somewhat controversial because of his views on dispensationalism...that's where Vic stole his ideas about the 7 administrations. I suppose because Vic was rejected from the mainstream church (because of his adulterous affairs)...he sought out others who would allow him into their meetings...and I also believe that Wierwille was in search of something that would "make him different and unique" from other churches and other ministers...his enormous ego and his extreme insecurity compelled him to "develope" something that would make him stand out from the rest of the crowd...he wanted so badly to be the MOG...that's why he stole portions of various teachings from other fringe players, creating his own hybrid version of Christianity.

Wierwille spoke of Arthur Ford...the spiritualist who would show up drunker than a skunk...go into a trance and suddenly be as sober as a judge, as he "channeled" other people who were dead...( I suppose if dead people were speaking through my mouth, I'd be doing a lot of drinking too ) Wierwille seemed to gravitate towards people on the "fringe"...Rufus Mosley, Bishop Pillai, E. Stanley Jones (who wrote extensively about his ashram experiences, in a book entitled "Abundant Living"...where teachers and students live together year round...sound familiar?)

HCW...Actually, when I share my thoughts here at the Grease Spot...I do so at my own discretion. Nobody has a RIGHT to read my thoughts until I decide to post them... As a Christian, I acknowledge that there is one head of the body...and he has lordship of my life. However, I did not see his name on the Momentus list of board of directors.

sirguessalot...Would I do such things for free?...No. Would I take Momentus if they paid me first?...maybe. How much are we talking about? ;)-->

cool...I love chess...thanks

Yeah...Vic claimed to have spent time with all sorts of "spiritually enlightened" folks. I recall during an advanced class I took, that they had a "seed boy" come in to speak...just so that everyone could learn from the experience. A lot of the people that Vic names, were considered outside the pail of accepted Christianity (surprise, surprise)...probably because those with any credibility showed Wierwille the door and told him not to let it hit him in the foot as he walked out.

From reading all the posts in this thread, it's clear that we are not all of "one mind" when it comes to the subject of Momentus...and that's a GOOD thing. I welcome individual thought...something that was dismally missing from our group think experience with the cornfield cult. I will be the first to admit that I am not objective when it comes to this subject. After spending 13 years of my life in a cult, I cherish and relish the idea that I make decisions (right or wrong) of my own accord and have rejected the notion of allowing others to do that for me. Perhaps that's one of the reasons that I soundly reject the Momentus training...if it worked for you...swell. As for me, my "secret sins" belong to me...nobody's damn business but my own. I feel no need at all, for the validation of a charismatic group of know it alls..who are hell bent on setting me straight, revealing the truth to me, enlightening my spiritual life, or leading me to some sort of self discovery...personally, I would rather think for myself and fail, than to be a part of some group think cult, riding the coattails of some enlightened guru who will lead me to the promised land of thinking just like him and the rest of his "followers"...been there, done that. Reveal my "secret sins" to some Momentus group? How dare you??? What in the world gives anyone the right to suggest such a thing to me...or anyone else? Are you so insecure and weak and that you need some buffoon with a nametag to give wings to your spiritual life? To validate your life for you? To open the doors of self discovery for you? (as long as your discovery fits his/her dogma?)...bite my crank matey. No...I soundly reject the outrageous idea that ANYONE has the right to know my thoughts, my personal experiences, my "secret sins", my aspirations, my beliefs, or my concepts of God and life...yell at me during a Momentus training? I'd smash his nose and walk out the door. I don't know how much longer I will live on this earth, but I'll tell you this...anyone who tells me that they will change my life for me if I take their "class", "training" or any other indoctrinational format...had better move on to the next "prospect" who's willing to pay them the non-refundable fee to get a glimpse of the "truth"...