T-Bone

That’s why David Hasselhoff always looked so busy – maintaining constant observation of troublesome areas in anticipation of problems from the inexperienced and those who have a death wish.

That’s a very stimulating observation, Bolshevik! Well, an overly simplistic definition of solipsism is the quality of being very self-centered or selfish…and to answer your question was that whole paragraph Russell’s? No – it was an amalgam of his stuff and some other ideas I read on line – mostly stuff out of Psychology Today articles…but here is the whole paragraph of Russell’s lecture that contains that line: “Belief, which is our subject to-day, is the central problem in the analysis of mind. Believing seems the most "mental" thing we do, the thing most remote from what is done by mere matter. The whole intellectual life consists of beliefs, and of the passage from one belief to another by what is called "reasoning." Beliefs give knowledge and error; they are the vehicles of truth and falsehood. Psychology, theory of knowledge and metaphysics revolve about belief, and on the view we take of belief our philosophical outlook largely depends.” from The Free Library: Lecture XII. Belief end of excerpts = = = = Following up on your solipsism reference I found this on Wikipedia: Solipsism (/ˈsɒlɪpsɪzəm/ ; from Latin solus 'alone', and ipse 'self') is the philosophical idea that only one's mind is sure to exist. As an epistemological position, solipsism holds that knowledge of anything outside one's own mind is unsure; the external world and other minds cannot be known and might not exist outside the mind. here are varying degrees of solipsism that parallel the varying degrees of skepticism: Metaphysical Main article: Metaphysical solipsism Metaphysical solipsism is a variety of solipsism. Based on a philosophy of subjective idealism, metaphysical solipsists maintain that the self is the only existing reality and that all other realities, including the external world and other persons, are representations of that self, and have no independent existence. There are several versions of metaphysical solipsism, such as Caspar Hare's egocentric presentism (or perspectival realism), in which other people are conscious, but their experiences are simply not present. Epistemological Epistemological solipsism is the variety of idealism according to which only the directly accessible mental contents of the solipsistic philosopher can be known. The existence of an external world is regarded as an unresolvable question rather than actually false. Further, one cannot also be certain as to what extent the external world exists independently of one's mind. For instance, it may be that a God-like being controls the sensations received by mind, making it appear as if there is an external world when most of it (excluding the God-like being and oneself) is false. However, the point remains that epistemological solipsists consider this an "unresolvable" question Methodological Methodological solipsism is an agnostic variant of solipsism. It exists in opposition to the strict epistemological requirements for "knowledge" (e.g. the requirement that knowledge must be certain). It still entertains the points that any induction is fallible. Methodological solipsism sometimes goes even further to say that even what we perceive as the brain is actually part of the external world, for it is only through our senses that we can see or feel the mind. Only the existence of thoughts is known for certain. Methodological solipsists do not intend to conclude that the stronger forms of solipsism are actually true. They simply emphasize that justifications of an external world must be founded on indisputable facts about their own consciousness. The methodological solipsist believes that subjective impressions (empiricism) or innate knowledge (rationalism) are the sole possible or proper starting point for philosophical construction.[3] Often methodological solipsism is not held as a belief system, but rather used as a thought experiment to assist skepticism (e.g. Descartes' Cartesian skepticism) Denial of material existence, in itself, does not constitute solipsism. A feature of the metaphysical solipsistic worldview is the denial of the existence of other minds. Since personal experiences are private and often considered ineffable, another being's experience can be known only by analogy. Philosophers try to build knowledge on more than an inference or analogy. The failure of Descartes' epistemological enterprise brought to popularity the idea that all certain knowledge may go no further than "I think; therefore I exist"[4] without providing any real details about the nature of the "I" that has been proven to exist. The theory of solipsism also merits close examination because it relates to three widely held philosophical presuppositions, each itself fundamental and wide-ranging in importance: One's most certain knowledge is the content of one's own mind—my thoughts, experiences, affects, etc. There is no conceptual or logically necessary link between mental and physical—between, for example, the occurrence of certain conscious experience or mental states and the "possession" and behavioral dispositions of a "body" of a particular kind. The experience of a given person is necessarily private to that person. To expand on the second point, the conceptual problem here is that the previous assumes mind or consciousness (which are attributes) can exist independent of some entity having this attribute (a capability in this case), i.e., that an attribute of an existent can exist apart from the existent itself. If one admits to the existence of an independent entity (e.g., the brain) having that attribute, the door is open to an independent reality. (See Brain in a vat) Some people hold that, while it cannot be proven that anything independent of one's mind exists, the point that solipsism makes is irrelevant. This is because, whether the world as we perceive it exists independently or not, we cannot escape this perception (except via death), hence it is best to act assuming that the world is independent of our minds. (See Falsifiability and testability below) However, being aware simply acknowledges its existence; it does not identify the actual creations until they are observed by the user. From: Wikipedia – solipsism end of excerpts = = = = = I vaguely remember getting into some of this stuff eons ago in a philosophy class in my university’s liberal arts program – but I was an art major…and also working two jobs - bass player in a bar band ( FYI we always sounded better when the audience were mostly drunks ) and a carpenter’s helper at the time, pursuing different versions of intangible things I guess - wish I would have paid better attention to that philosophy stuff cuz now I really get into it…I think my approach now with getting into philosophy of religion – there’s some similarities with the varying degrees of solipsism / skepticism... ...anyway, good catch on that soli thing, Bolshevik.

I didn’t mean to give intuition itself a bad rap. Matter of fact, I believe our intuition should be integral with our more analytical study of the Scriptures...But it’s important to realize that it’s not perfect and it can be misinterpreted or even compromised by a seared conscience – certain passages like Proverbs 16:25 and Judges 21:25 will attest to that – we find that one’s feelings can be wrong, and not all inner leanings should be heeded. Because of our sin nature, we are often prone to error and poor judgment. If relying only upon our own powers of discernment, we can be led astray. I believe people are created in God’s image and as such we reflect some unique characteristics of our Creator – like a moral compass, the ability to judge what is right from wrong and act accordingly. At times we may acquire knowledge without obvious deliberation. Perhaps that is what Ephesians 1:17 is talking about - “that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give you the Spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of him, having the eyes of your hearts enlightened, that you may know what is the hope to which he has called you…” Ever notice how in PFAL, wierwille gets you to doubt yourself. You learn to think of YOUR own intuition and cognitive skills as unimportant…possibly defective, maybe just plain “worldly”, just natural man driven…five-senses based…remember Eve in the Garden and the road down…oooooh she changed “The Word” , added to “The Word”, questioned “The Word” blah blah blah now she be daid…if you stick around TWI for a while, you learn there’s even more reasons to doubt yourself…you could be tricked by devil spirits or even… possessed! One thing you do learn to trust is the signature intuition of the cult-leader. That simply means it’s THEIR personal “unique” intuition and NOT YOURS. It’s funny how in PFAL wierwille goes on about “The Word is of no private interpretation” – so you saying “I think it means this or that” is a big no-no. But it’s ok if wierwille does it. Only he doesn’t say “I think it means this” – he just flat out says “it means this”. He may even go on about how he uses the keys to The Word’s interpretation like looking at the context – but that’s a really sneaky move of his – you can witness it in PFAL when he gets into teaching about the holy spirit from I Corinthians 12, 13 and 14 – the way he mistakes who the pronouns refer to reminds me of finding the pea in the shell game – sure he’s staying within the context of those chapters – never mind if he screws up the Greek syntax - but remember how he handled I Corinthians 12:11 “But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will “ – wierwille interprets the “he” as referring back to “every man”. But many other versions interpret it as referring to God by capitalizing the pronoun so it reads “He” – like in the Holman Christian Standard Bible “But one and the same Spirit is active in all these, distributing to each person as He wills.” If you click on the link I gave for I Corinthians 12:11 you’ll find that listed along with some other versions on Bible Hub’s website – most you’ll find reflect a similar interpretation of this verse – that the pronoun refers to God. The New Living Translation is quite emphatic “It is the one and only Spirit who distributes all these gifts. He alone decides which gift each person should have.” What’s the difference? Well, if you lean towards the “he” is referring back to “every man” as wierwille suggested then you probably bought into his idea that everyone CAN operate all nine manifestations but not everyone WILL operate all nine manifestations – it is an act of will - the capability of conscious choice, decision, and intention. In the class he explains that when someone operates their “long suit” it is of outstanding quality – if I remember correctly, he uses the example of someone who’s “specialty” is speaking in tongues with interpretation – when they do that in a believer’s meeting you’re just bowled over in amazement....now here's an observation: everybody in TWI can speak in tongues, interpret tongues and prophesy PROFUSELY ! ... I mean - that stuff is so easy to FAKE !!!! but how many have you noticed doing REAL miracles, gifts of healing that can be verified by medical doctors, genuine word of knowledge, wisdom, - info that can be verified independently - stuff that only God would know, and not just stories "I heard of a believer who did this or that". If people in TWI had such miraculous powers, they'd be on the news every other day for clearing out hospitals of the sick and dying and clearing out funeral parlors of the recently deceased. PFAL grads would be kicking covid's a$$ ! What’s an alternate interpretation? I lean toward it being GOD who is in charge of distributing to each person as GOD chooses – and it doesn’t even suggest that each person gets SEVERAL according to his own believing – and I believe that same idea is reflected in some translations like the Holman Christian Standard Bible “But one and the same Spirit is active in all these, distributing to each person as He wills.” and The New American Standard Bible “But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills.” But in TWI it doesn’t seem like God is – or ever was in charge. The Way International is an authoritarian pyramid structure with the absolute power being at the top. A hierarchy or pyramid-like power structure is probably the most common among businesses and the advantages are obvious. There is a clearly defined career path, roles and responsibilities, promotion plan and chain of command. Taking the PFAL class for the first time is entry-level – the lowest level in the hierarchy. There is a clearly defined career path, roles and responsibilities, promotion plan and chain of command. You follow all the rules and regs - you’re going places – if you don’t, you risk being labeled a cop out, marked and avoided. There are no feedback loops for reactions or comments from customers or employees so as to improve a product, service or the workplace… Think about it…Do they ever ask for input or ideas? Are leaders approachable? Do they keep people boxed in with rules? Are they really interested in the personal preferences and goals of followers? What does all this have to do with PFAL? I’m glad I asked that question – I’ve been looking for a smooth segue. PFAL is the master plan. PFAL is the comprehensive and far-reaching plan of action. A master plan is defined as a dynamic long-term strategy that provides a conceptual layout to guide future growth and development. If you’ve ever wondered about the way corps program but never been – just think of it as a Bible-based graduate school division of a university offering advanced programs beyond the bachelor's degree…only it’s not based on the Bible perse – it’s based on “the Bible” for graduates of the PFAL class – which is of course PFAL duh !…but not just the same old PFAL material…it’s the same old PFAL material hyped up and glorified with the potential to incentivize sales reps…uhm…errr…I mean incentivize way corps graduates to find more suckers to take the PFAL class. There is a phrase many of the way corps are familiar with “a suggestion is tantamount to an order”. Authoritarians rely on psychological coercion and the manipulation of information as ways to control others. The level of control becomes more stringent as one gets more involved. The higher up you go in TWI you’ll notice more and more that conformity is encouraged as if it were a virtue. Individualism is frowned upon. Wanting to debate an issue or having a difference of opinion is a big no-no. If leadership ever does hear you out on your complaint, it’s usually a stalling tactic so you might tend to think they’re going to help you – but in the end, if they can’t “fix” you – i.e., get you to admit you’re wrong and they’re right – then they’ll dismiss you. Dissenters do not last long in TWI. Why were we trained as PFAL class “instructors” (don’t get all excited like YOU would get a chance to actually teach something - it’s just the person in charge of running a PFAL class) to have people WAIT until the END of the PFAL class to ask any questions? We were trained to announce that caveat at the very beginning of the class saying more than likely your questions will be answered in a later session. I think the real reason is that “the instructor” hoped by the last session you forgot some questions you had during earlier sessions. And what’s with those “listening with a purpose” (don’t you love the redundancy in TWI phrases) questions in the syllabus for the end of each session. God forbid you gave the wrong answer when “the instructor” called on you. “Uhm, you in the back (the class "instructor" looks at my nametag) T-Bone is it? How many were crucified with Jesus Christ?” PFAL is all about pat answers. Complexity is ignored – so it’s tough if your situation, question, dilemma does fit into wierwille’s script (aka PFAL). PFAL encourages an obfuscating mindset in followers...much of it depends on all-or-nothing thinking. … (An either-or fallacy is a false dilemma that presents only two options or sides when there might actually be more than two options or sides)...some other cognitive distortions often come into play such as overgeneralizations, filtering (focusing on only the negative or the positive instead of looking at the whole picture), jumping to conclusions, blaming, labeling... …what it all boils down to is whatever works to undermine rational thinking and fulfill wierwille’s (or any other TWI-leadership) need to always be right. ...Recalling my time in residence, it was extremely laser-focused on knowing The Power For Abundant Living class material backwards and forwards. During the three meals we had each day in the dining room, we were randomly called upon to give a five minute teaching - right there on the spot – and immediately critiqued right after that. Even back then I was disturbed by one fact - that people who quoted PFAL material verbatim or with very little deviation from that, received the highest praise with little or no criticism... In preparation for doing our research papers – which I suppose is one of the academic highlights of a college education – to this day I still remember LCM pounding on the podium and bellowing out “Don’t try to reinvent the wheel – base your research paper on something from PFAL”…looking back now – do you know what all that tells me? The aim of the way corps program was to create little clones of wierwille. What is a clone? Technically it’s an organism or cell, or group of organisms or cells, produced asexually from one ancestor or stock, to which they are genetically identical. In other words, it isn’t natural! It's not even supernatural...It's creepy. That’s all for now –

Two great posts, Twinky !!!! After my posts of analyzing PFAL – I wanted to get back to these…I’ll pick back up on more PFAL analysis later... Anyway, you said: “But later, in PFAL, he says: "The Word of God is true whether or not you see it come to pass" or some such. Was that in context of prophets of old looking centuries into the future for the coming of the Saviour, the Promised Seed, the Lamb of God? We know that many of those OT prophets thought they were forsaken by God, at times. They despaired of their own lives. They must have thought God was backing off from his promises.” After reading your post – I kept mulling your points over and over again in my mind – and a part of PFAL that has wierwille reading from Romans 8 : 18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. 19 For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; 21 because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. 23 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body. 24 For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance. 26 Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. 27 Now He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God. 28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. 31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32 He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things? 33 Who shall bring a charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. 34 Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us. 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? 36 As it is written: “For Your sake we are killed all day long; We are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.” 37 Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us. 38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, 39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. I think Hebrews 11 is another great chapter that goes along with Romans 8 in giving a very moving account of the faithfulness of Old Testament believers – they all attest to the value of living by faith regardless of circumstances…but anyway I quoted Romans 8 from NKJV (you can change the version to your preference if you click on the link I gave and use the pulldown to the right of Romans 8) , and I started from verse 18 to give more of the context – which talks about persecution and hardships in this life – as it leads up to the climatic section where Paul says “Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors THROUGH HIM WHO LOVED US.” (capitalized emphasis is my idea ). The word “through” is really cool – it’s used here as a function word to indicate means, agency, or intermediacy. It is by the action or intervention of Jesus Christ loving us that we have the overwhelming victory – among other things Jesus Christ’s office or function is Lord – he rules our lives. Reading on to the rest of the chapter, Paul reiterates the lordship of Jesus Christ: verse 38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, 39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. I found some interesting comments on verses 38 and 39 in NIV, Cultural Backgrounds Study Bible, Bringing to Life the Ancient World of Scripture : the “principalities and powers” likely refers to spiritual rulers believed to be “guardian angels” of those hostile toward God’s people ( see that in Daniel 10 with references to the Prince of Persia and the Prince of Greece) and in verse 39 “nor height nor depth” – some scholars compare height and depth to astrological terms, many cultures believed that arbitrary Fate ruled the nations through the stars. Paul believed that Christ rather than Fate ruled believers’ lives, but he may have simply included the terms as a merism to specify everything from heaven to Hades. Twinky said “We know that many of those OT prophets thought they were forsaken by God, at times. They despaired of their own lives. They must have thought God was backing off from his promises.” I think that’s a fair assumption to make. But in retrospect it seems to me wierwille put a law-of-believing-spin on Romans 8 - perhaps intentionally making light of Old Testament believers and their experiences/hardships to seem of little importance or value – because he zeros in on the idea that WE instead are more than conquerors and don’t have to put up with and endure all that distress, deprivation, misfortune – furthermore he doesn’t emphasize the point that we are more than conquerors “THROUGH HIM WHO LOVED US” – which is not surprising since that subtle omission is in tune with his Gnostic-dictum ‘The Word’ or rather ONE”S KNOWLEDGE of ‘The Word’ takes the place of the absent Christ. And all the Gnostics said “amen and amen”. PFAL promoted the law of believing big time – and that is something I have criticized many times on Grease Spot, because…I know there is NO SUCH THING AS A FORCE…INFLUENTIAL POWER…CONTROLLING AGENCY THAT WORKS FOR SAINT AND SINNER ALIKE… however… What?!?! That’s right I said “however” …however, what wierwille did was distort, mischaracterize and hype the power of one’s belief system. Our beliefs help us make sense of the world. From what I’ve read online, some experts think our beliefs are somewhat like a software program always running in the background as we take in information and examine its source – checking for compatibility or conflicts with our existing beliefs. Our beliefs help form and/or modify a mental model for understanding the world, our self and others. Bertrand Russell once said, “believing is the most mental thing we do”. It has also been said that our thoughts, feelings, actions, and reactions, respond not to the world as it actually is (for we never know reality directly) but to the world as we believe it to be. Our beliefs tell us who we think we are, mark our place in the world and are essentially an ongoing personal narrative that anchors us to various places, situations, and events across our lifetimes…Our brains have no direct contact with the outside world. Our only information about what is going on outside of our bodies comes to us from our five senses. Perception in psychology is defined as the analysis of sensory information within the brain. Through perception we obtain a description of our surroundings and what they mean. Because of that, we can’t always assume that our perceptions are reality – if anything they just might be our own interpretation of reality. That’s why it’s important to respect the perceptions of others – they might be more accurate than ours. It takes real courage to admit we’re wrong and let go of certain perceptions. Sometimes it’s advantageous to seek out validation from experts or at least from other credible people who are outside of our circle of friends or religious group…In trying to make sense of it all – since I left TWI – trying to make sense of life in general, I often had to ask myself the question “Am I open to modifying my perception if the evidence is strong and logic demands it?” I think about one of the first really big catastrophes to happen in my life after I took PFAL in 1974. The year was 1979. Another believer was helping me tune up my Yamaha 250 Street Scrambler (bought it for $200 from a guy who lived in a trailer and had a bunch of pet snakes – at my urging we conducted the business transaction outside ). This motorcycle was a real piece of work – it had a VW muffler for a baffle and the oil pump was shot – I had to premix oil at the gas station whenever I fueled up – I always carried a small bottle of 2 cycle oil in a saddle bag…anyway – the believer knew what he was doing, and we got this puppy running smooth. I hop on the “Yammer-Hammer” get as far as 1 block and an old geezer ran a stop sign (I had the right of way, anyway – no stop sign for me) – he almost plows into me but since I was going slow and saw this whole crisis developing I laid the bike down to avoid T-Boning - his car. In the process I laid the bike down on my left lower leg and sustained a spiral break of the lower leg and some road rash on my shoulder, hip and leg. A full leg cast didn’t work that good so then they went with a Hoffman Device – external fixation hardware with steel screws drilled in above and below the break of the Tibia and the big honker adjustable bar on the outside to hold Tibia and Fibula in place. It gave me that exoskeleton look – and was always a conversation piece at Twig. BUT – this really messed with my view of reality – or rather put some cracks in my PFAL-colored glasses. I mean – bad mojo was leaking through the lenses. What happened to my hedge of believing? I had no fear of getting in an accident. How could this happen? Why did this happen? I was running a Twig. Faithfully abundantly sharing and sponsoring people in the corps, occasionally volunteering my labor to go help the ministry develop its newly acquired property of Camp Gunnison. I never was big on TWI’s law of believing after that incident. A few years later we had moved to Texas and there was another thought-provoking incident. One rainy morning I was on my way into work while listening to a Sunday Night Teaching tape in a portable cassette player. I’m at almost a dead stop at the on-ramp to the freeway when – WHAM – another car plows into the back of my work truck. No big deal – no one was hurt – we swapped insurance info – both vehicles drivable – we both move on – end of story…or so I thought… ...at the next Twig meeting – afterwards I happened to share about the little fender bender that happened to me on the way to work. Yikes – the Twig coordinator – a lady just out of the way corps – laces into me about where my head was at. I said something like I thought it was in a pretty good place since I was listening to a Sunday Night Teaching tape at the time…I mean – this got weird – in front of the rest of the Twig…because it started out after Twig proper in a casual conversation – and escalated to me being on trial for failing to believe big enough to maintain my deflector shield – which would have made that car bounce off my unharmed truck. Ever since then this has been one of the biggest chinks in my PFAL-armor …one of the weakest points in dealing with the practical matters of life. PFAL gave me a false sense of security…and incites a false sense of bravado…alcohol can incite a false sense of bravado that gets people in trouble. For some people, it's hard to tell whether they are drunk or being stupid. Folks who are really drunk with PFAL-Kool-Aid do stupid things too…which reminds me of going LEAD. In the way corps I had to go LEAD twice. wierwille stressed the importance of trusting God in every situation and how hitchhiking was no different – and then he said something like “you could get hit by a car while walking across the street right out here” – so basically minimizing any risks in hitchhiking. (It wasn’t until years later, I read on Grease Spot about some of the horror stories of rape, assault and other horrible experiences of way corps hitchhiking to or from L.E.A.D. …And what’s more – imagine how powerful the way corps psychological conditioning must be for the victims of assault…robbery…sexual molestation…rape to refuse to file a police report because they are expected to get to or from the L.E.A.D. locale in a timely manner rather than face the wrath of leadership. ) You know you’re in a harmful and controlling cult when leadership is viewed as a law unto themselves…cult-leaders certainly behave that way, acting as totally independent of the laws of the land…Something is out of whack when cult-leaders demand more respect and fear than the police and the legal system...and if all that’s not screwed up enough, wierwille had a callous way of dealing with anyone’s misfortune – it didn’t matter what happened or how it happened, he would always blame it on the person's lack of believing – in other words, it was the victim’s fault)...I don't know what the L.E.A.D. program was supposed to accomplish - but it does make me wonder what kind of person wierwille was to put the lives and well-being of his most devoted followers at great risk!...oh well, he’s “The Teacher” of PFAL-fame…maybe he knows something I don’t. I did mention earlier about wierwille distorting, mischaracterizing and making extravagant and unrealistic claims about the power beliefs have. I do think there is something to what we believe – not as a power that enables you to manipulate reality – but as a way to access and even “program” our deepest and most inconspicuous desires. I read a personal empowerment book titled Unfu*k Yourself: Get Out of Your Head and into Your Life by Gary John Bishop . Here’s a few meaty and stimulating excerpts from pages 58 to 69…now as you read this, do a reality check like I did when I read this stuff. The author is NOT saying whatever you believe you can achieve, or you that can do the impossible. My take of the book is that Bishop is saying whatever you believe deep down inside then that sets your course – and you will follow (even almost unconsciously) that course and do whatever is necessary to navigate that course. Now if your course, goals, objectives, destination are unrealistic – then you have doomed yourself to frustration and spinning your wheels…you’re wasting your time and efforts…If I had to correct PFAL on the subject of believing – that’s how I’d recommend the correction – set your beliefs on realistic goals – and let that shape your strategy and the execution of your “plan”… ...I think this “regular old belief system” our brains all come with, works for saint and sinner alike – it has ever since humans have been around…when I say works for saint and sinner alike – I mean consider the genuine accomplishments of anyone you admire – celebrity, scientist, author, musician, athlete, professional, family, friend, etc. – and if you think about it they’ve probably developed a life of good habits to help them reach realistic goals…the inverse of “works for saint and sinner alike” is when it doesn’t work out because the appropriate habits were not maintained or unrealistic goals were set…we give witness to the validity – OR - the lack of fact or truth, in our beliefs through our everyday actions… …anyway as promised - here’s the excerpts from pages 58 to 69 of Unfu*k Yourself – I’ll leave it up to you to get what you want out of it: “…our thoughts are so powerful that they are constantly pushing you toward your goals, even when you don’t realize what those goals actually are! Your brain is wired to win…You’re always winning because your brain is wired to. The trouble comes when what you really want – on a subconscious level – and what you say you want are different, sometimes radically so…In his research, Dr. Bruce Lipton, the famous stem cell and DNA scientist, found that 95 percent of what we do in our day-to-day life is controlled by our subconscious. …That means that out of all the things you say or do, only a tiny fraction of them are with a true sense of volition… …The path you follow through in life is the one dictated by your deepest, most inconspicuous thoughts. Your brain is constantly pushing you along that path, whether it’s the one you would constantly choose to take or not… …While it’s important to identify what you’re at work on and whether you are being productive instead of busy, sometimes it really is a question of getting yourself into another domain. How does one do that? Firstly, you have to uncover and realize the ways in which you limited yourself…Those conclusions are the limit of your potential… …we hold a certain belief about ourselves or life that we prove right time and time again through our everyday actions. Those beliefs uncannily turn out to be deadly accurate in our reality. Sinning your wheels? What ae you out to prove there?... …Take some time for introspection. If need be, write down the patterns you are seeing. Put the pieces of the jigsaw together… …The Stoic philosopher Seneca once said, “It is the power of the mind to be unconquerable.” Right now your mind is unconquerable when it comes to proving that you’re not worthy of love, that you’re lazy, or that you’ll always be out of shape or never have any money. But if we change our thinking a little, we can use our mind’s unconquerable nature to act on all the positive goals and dreams we hold for ourselves. We are wired to win – we just have to point ourselves in the right direction so we can win at something we consciously choose. …you still need a game plan… …subconscious thoughts are deeply ingrained in your psyche, so it can take a lot of thinking, imagination, and commitment to transform these invisible yet powerful thoughts into ones that better align with your stated goals. = = = = = = End of excerpts Considering the ideas from Bishop's book I think offers a good explanation for the failure and frustration that many grads have experienced trying to adhere to the PFAL-lifestyle. From some of my own experiences that I have briefly detailed above – it has become clear the lack of success and disappointments came from setting unrealistic goals and maintaining habits that waste time and effort but achieve nothing. Circling back to the ideas at the beginning of my post which elaborated on Twinky’s appreciation for the reality of the Christian life as indicated in the Bible. It isn’t a bed of roses…I segued into life is what you make it – whether you’re a sinner or a saint – meaning it is up to you to make of your life what you want. If you set your sights on pipe dreams - unattainable or fanciful hopes or plans from PFAL…well…good luck with that…let me know how that’s working out for you…and please be honest if you’d care to share here on Grease Spot…I tend to believe someone’s story if it’s evident they were successful in achieving it the NORMAL WAY – through hard work, honesty, and good habits and good work ethic. I tend to doubt someone’s story if they go on and on how they believed for God’s abundance, confessed it till they were blue in the face and now they’re a gazillionaire. That’s all for now, folks

During my 12 years of involvement with TWI, I was exposed to a lot of training and techniques to facilitate new students being successful in PFAL. By successful I mean that at the last session – session 12 – upon command from wierwille all the new students stood up and supposedly spoke in tongues. All grads were supposed to follow along as well, so we also had to “stand and deliver”. In a previous post ( here ) – I mentioned the fourfold insidious recipe of PFAL: 1. his signature intuition - refers to what wierwille felt was true regardless of what a passage might really mean; though incompetent with the biblical languages and having a penchant for plagiarism and logical fallacies he was able to cobble together something he was proud of; Signature intuition is wierwille's unique sixth sense of nonsense to divine Scripture, so it always suited his lifestyle - and the devil be damned! It seemed to me wierwille was usually flying by the seat of his pants – using his own initiative and “perceptions” and during live teachings he frequently strayed from the very interpretative keys he taught in PFAL. I think he lacked the discipline, wisdom, experience and honesty of a seasoned researcher and so relied more on intuition to pull off his act. He would often play his trump card “Father revealed it to me”. A cult-leader’s signature intuition is central to enabling the other 3 characteristics listed below to work together. For want of a better analogy, signature intuition functions somewhat like a manual transmission for the cult-leader – who alone can decide on a whim to “change gears” and adopt a different approach to a situation or task. If the cult-leader doesn’t feel a literal interpretation of Scripture is appropriate, he might spiritualize, allegorize, philosophize or in some way bend Scripture to suit his needs. 2. dogmatic Fundamentalism is a strict, literal interpretation of the Bible. According to Alister McGrath (an Anglican priest, Professor of Science and Religion at the University of Oxford, theologian, intellectual historian, scientist, Christian apologist, and public intellectual) fundamentalism began in the late 19th and early 20th century within American Protestant circles - to defend the "fundamentals of belief" against the corrosive effects of liberalism within the very ranks of Protestantism. its outset has remained a counter-culture movement, using central doctrinal affirmations as a means of defining cultural boundaries. Certain major doctrines like the absolute literal authority of Scripture and the second coming of Christ - his premillennial return, became barriers to alienate secular culture and give fundamentalists a sense of identity and purpose. A siege mentality - a defensive or paranoid attitude based on the belief that others are hostile toward one, became characteristic of the movement. Fundamentalism can be distinguished from evangelicalism by three general ideas. 1. Biblically, fundamentalism is totally hostile to the notion of biblical criticism in any form and is committed to a literal interpretation of Scripture (as I touched on wierwille’s hostility in a previous post). Evangelicalism however accepts the principle of sensible and trustworthy biblical criticism and recognizes the diversity of literary forms within Scripture. 2. Theologically, fundamentalism is narrowly committed to a set of doctrines – some of which evangelicalism regards as peripheral or even utterly irrelevant such as dispensationalism. 3. Sociologically, fundamentalism is a reactionary counter-cultural movement – whereas Evangelicalism is a cultural movement focused on relevance and has a loose basis for self-definition. The element of irrationalism often associated with fundamentalism is lacking in evangelicalism which has produced significant writings in areas of the philosophy of religion and apologetics. 3. Spiritualism - pontificating demonology / spiritualism i.e., the “mechanics” of EXACTLY HOW stuff works in the spiritual realm...spiritualism is a worldview based on the belief that there is more to life than what meets the senses, more to the universe than just purposeless mechanics, more to consciousness than electrical impulses in the brain, and more to our existence than the body and its needs. Spiritualism may involve the belief in a higher form of intelligence or Consciousness running the universe and it seems to satisfy the deeper human thirst for meaning, peace, mystery, and truth…there’s probably some similarity with mysticism – but I think there are key differences between mysticism and spiritualism…Spiritualism can be practiced even by people who are not completely believers, while mysticism always has to do with some divinity or higher being…something beyond the senses. Mysticism seeks union with the higher self…wanting to transcend beyond physical limits…whereas spiritualism seeks a way of bringing non-physical entities…energy…whatever into the real world…maybe trying to connect the spiritual world to the physical world…this is probably convenient for all those practical-minded Gnostics...one of those six-of-one-half-a-dozen-of-the-other-situations I guess... As best as I understood wierwille’s view of spirit, the spiritual realm, spiritual beings, etc. is that stuff is the greater reality of life – it all is beyond or above the range of “normal” or merely physical human experience. By comparison – according to wierwille - the spiritual realm is superior to the physical realm. wierwille speculated on how the spiritual realm works – but talked about it like it was absolutely true. anything you wanted to know about – like what God can or cannot do – just ask him; he promoted himself as an expert on the relationship between spirit and matter; whatever he said goes even if there's no way to verify it; and whatever he said was regurgitated, parroted and sometimes confounded even more as it is passed down through the ranks of TWI – thus wierwille's nonsense spiritualism is perpetuated. Demonology is the NON-SCIENTIFIC study of demons or beliefs about demons, and the hierarchy of demons. “NON-SCIENTIFIC” is the operative word! But as far as TWI-believers were concerned - we all thought wierwille was in his element whenever he taught on this stuff. One of the most bizarre and unsettling topics was his teaching on the unforgiveable sin - being born again of the wrong seed. For someone like wierwille who boasted of the great accuracy and integrity of the Bible and his in-depth analysis of it as well as his supposedly great experience in discerning of spirits and in casting out devil spirits – he offered very little details on exactly how one would commit the unforgiveable sin and get born again of the wrong seed. I have refuted wierwille’s wrong-seed teaching from a biblical theology point of view elsewhere on Grease Spot – so I won’t bog down this post with even more details right now – but I just wanted to say - in my humble opinion this is one of the most questionable and treacherous doctrines of wierwille. A doctrine that is so fraught with psychological stress that the session on the unforgivable sin was pulled from the PFAL class proper, and was only available for viewing sometime later – after a new student “successfully” completed the PFAL class (i.e. they supposedly spoke in tongues) and has been reviewing all the class material and attending Twig Fellowships for a while... ...We can only speculate why wierwille yanked it from the class proper – my guess is that there were some unintended consequences...maybe he was aware of some folks having issues with thinking they might have committed the unforgivable sin... I remember reading on Grease Spot someone shared of a person they knew who was convinced they committed the unforgivable sin – so they committed suicide... ...how awful !!!! such tragedy and destruction wrought by wierwille's twisted doctrines! The amazing slight-of-thought - or skillful deception – on wierwille’s part is the incremental process of getting new students to trust him after what they hear and see him do with the Bible. That’s phase 1 - he leads everyone to think he’s done all this research and scholarly analysis and even claimed God spoke to him audibly and said he would teach wierwille (I quoted that from “The Way Living in Love” book in a previous post)… …and then phase 2 – here it is – his pièce de resistance – he gets new students to take a leap of faith… A leap of faith, in its most commonly used meaning, is the act of believing in or accepting something intangible or unprovable, or without empirical evidence. It is an act commonly associated with religious belief as many religions consider faith to be an essential element. But I use the term “leap of faith” here in a more general…secular way…meaning simply to believe in something or someone based on faith rather than evidence… as a former-sucker to wierwille’s con game, I remember how adamant I was – convinced that wierwille was a master at “working The Word” with evidence like his plagiarized teaching of the four crucified with Jesus (myself and other Grease Spotters have examined all the errors in that topic – so not necessary to bog down o details here – fyi use the search feature on Grease Spot – it works real good!)… somehow wierwille “earned” our trust with his slick handling of the written Word – so we follow along with whatever he says about spiritual stuff… ...I don’t know about you – but after I left TWI this has been another great study project – in my opinion wierwille butchers up the Greek syntax in I Corinthians 12, 13, and 14 , he ignores Paul distinguishing between the genuine speaking in tongues (plural) and the gibberish counterfeit of pagan ecstatic speech, speaking in a tongue (singular)…for as much as wierwille encouraged followers to speak in tongues while at the same time discouraging prayer in our understanding – I now tend to think it was just another mind-numbing tactic to suppress critical thinking – besides depriving Christians of the wonderful life-changing, character-shaping, communing-with-God aspects of prayer in our understanding. Reflecting back on the “PERCEIVED NEEDS” of taking PFAL, TIP class, Advanced Class, conducting excellor’s sessions / practice sessions…whatever in order to fill a sense of accomplishment – was just an incredible waste of time and effort…how come we don't find training sessions in the Bible? And ya know the great principle is a really nonsensical definition anyway. I mean – wierwille comes up with these Gnostic-conundrums-of-spirit-versus-matter-and-never-the-twain-shall-meet like God is spirit and can only speak to what he is – which is spirit. Never mind the stories like of God talking to Adam and Eve in the Garden, Balaam’s talking donkey, exalted Jesus Christ knocking Saul/Paul off his high horse…wierwille said God’s who is spirit teaches his creation in you – which is now your spirit – and your spirit teaches your mind…which I used to think made sense since it goes along with other stuff he said like you’ve got Christ behind every cell of your being…but think about it – I thought he taught that spirit and matter don’t “mix” – but now they do? If matter is so evil what's spirit doing hanging out around it? So if I’m an unbeliever – and God is everywhere – he’s spirit right – then he’s passing through me and I’m passing through him all the time – so what? Now let’s add a little spirit thingy to my body…then it becomes me and mini-me-spirit passing through God and God passing through me and mini-me-spirit all the time – so what?...shrugs and sighs..the three of us just never talk anymore. In the Blue Book wierwille has one chapter title as a question “Are You Limiting God?” …for which NOW I can honestly answer back “No – but I think you did.” Sometime between late '86 and early '87 I got honest with myself and realized I faked it in session 12...and had been spinning my wheels for some 12 years...it's kind of frightening how long one can bebop around in the nebulous wasteland of a cultic-mindset. ...I hit the snooze button for 12 years - in more ways than one. so I don’t bother doing it – switched to just prayer in my understanding – seems a lot more satisfying...inspiring...fulfilling in so many ways. oh yeah - lest you forget - Remember wierwille’s Sunday Night Teaching Tape titled “Carnal Versus Spiritual” - he makes some fascinating goofball statements without any pertinent Scripture references to support his claims. Here are some of his wildly exciting far-fetched claims which would surely tickle the fancy and “satisfy” any hard-core die-hard The-Force-of-Star-Wars-fans: 1. Psychologists talk about the subconscious…they’ve never been there…it’s actually the mind of the spirit. 2. All learning comes by way of the five senses…When you’re born again you now have another avenue of learning…In Galatians 1, Paul said he did not receive the gospel from any man, nor was he taught it – he received it by a revelation of Jesus Christ… 3. It’s Christ behind every cell of your being…even behind your brain cells. 4. All the great discoveries and inventions come by way of the spirit – revelation. 5. It’s not because you have such a high IQ – it’s because God has such a high IQ. 6. Countries without Christ do not invent. Apparently wierwille had a very low opinion of a human being’s cognitive skills…If I had to guess why he felt that way – I’d say it’s probably because he was lazy and incompetent – I mean, why else would he plagiarize so much? To be honest, I have a very low opinion of wierwille’s cognitive skills...Also, I’d like to point out with # 2 and # 4, wierwille equates the revelation of the gospel – a metaphysical truth, with discoveries and inventions – scientific truth. I'm embarrassed to say I used to believe all his malarkey. I mean - it sounded good...especially to anyone who admired the GREAT DOCTOR WIERWILLE...it gave gullible schmoes like me some hope - something I could aspire to...yeah...I oughta go in the way corps so I can learn how to be just like him. Yup…I was a big PFAL-wierwille-fan…fortunately when the $hit hit this fan in 1986 – I saw all that vying for power and confusion as a sign – actually the first huge red flag I was in deep doo-doo…aka a crappy cult. It would soon be time to wave goodbye - ....no wait save that for the end...oh, alright - I think there's more of those little emoji spirits anyway. 4. Gnosticism – the secret knowledge - “the keys” to the interpretation of “The Word” and experiencing the same “knowledge and power of the first century church in our day and time and hour.” Really? Well…sounds good anyway…got into this some in a previous post…but that doesn’t stop me from rambling some more about it… In thinking about Gnosticism’s paradigm of disconnecting the material world from the spiritual world, it makes me wonder if that was a factor in wierwille rationalizing his licentious behavior. I recall the many times I’ve heard him teach on the renewed mind and the Christian lifestyle and he often seemed to imply that the spiritual and physical realms had little to do with each other – and he would emphasize we should focus on the spiritual by saying things like “our old man nature is totally corrupt and unsalvageable – but our spiritual nature that we received when we got born again is perfect and needs no improvement”....I guess he forgot all those passages about how we're to walk as children of the light - like Ephesians 5 where Paul says Look carefully then how you walk, not as unwise but as wise, making the best use of the time, because the days are evil. Therefore do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. And do not get drunk with wine, for that is debauchery, but be filled with the Spirit... Paul is urging Christians to look very carefully at how they live and behave. And much to the chagrin of Gnostic-wannabees who like to play fast and loose there’s Paul’s admonition to avoid sexual immorality in I Corinthians 6:12-20 ESV : 12 “All things are lawful for me,” but not all things are helpful. “All things are lawful for me,” but I will not be dominated by anything. 13 “Food is meant for the stomach and the stomach for food”—and God will destroy both one and the other. The body is not meant for sexual immorality, but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body. 14 And God raised the Lord and will also raise us up by his power. 15 Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take the members of Christ and make them members of a prostitute? Never! 16 Or do you not know that he who is joined[d] to a prostitute becomes one body with her? For, as it is written, “The two will become one flesh.” 17 But he who is joined to the Lord becomes one spirit with him. 18 Flee from sexual immorality. Every other sin a person commits is outside the body, but the sexually immoral person sins against his own body. 19 Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You are not your own, 20 for you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body. so much for the Gnosticism-spiritualism-spirit-versus-matter-dichotomy-and-never-the-twain-shall-meet-nonsense . I Corinthians 6 teaches us there should be a beautiful harmony of the two. Nowadays with a mind that is not Kool-Aid drenched, reexamining those kinds of statements he had made – it's obvious to me now that wierwille was unmoored from any of the simple moral demands of the Bible. The compartmentalization involved in the TWI-mindset is mind-boggling…ya know - there's probably more to wierwille's awesome sauce than these four characteristics I've been talking about...it has taken me years to ferret through the nonsense I had absorbed - and I was usually frustrated because I was trying to pin the problem on one thing...but the more I kept thinking about the cognitive dissonance that cults promote in followers - the more I started to realize there were a number of hodge-podge issues with wierwille's ideology... (drifts off for a while zzzzzZZZZZZZzzzzz .... ) wha ...ahem ahem ...oh where was I ...now the 4 fifteens are ...no wait (looks at cue cards) ... oh yeah ...again I say the compartmentalization involved in the TWI-mindset is mind-boggling - literally…think of the points on spiritualism I mentioned in #3 versus the strict demarcation of spirit and matter in #4 Gnosticism here…probably too complicated or awkward for my pea-brain to navigate with…guess a good cult-follower should go with the “automatic transmission intuition”(let the cult-leader change gears for you - since he’s the only one capable of handling the manual transmission, i.e., his signature intuition ). But don’t fret – this modern means of transportation comes with lots of user manuals – PFAL books, collaterals, keys to walking by the spirit, PFAL and Advanced Class syllabuses, Advanced Class nametag, periodic tours of wierwille’s Advanced-Class-science-defying junk table inside the Ecto-Containment System Storage Facility and Protection Grid located somewhere in the basement of the Rome City campus - - right next to the sauerkraut dungeon. It is a large, laser-confinement grid that holds and restrains all the vapors and entities that have escaped from the sore butts of perpetually sitting students - can you blame them . Come out you foul and methane spirit! What may be of relative importance to further unraveling the convoluted mess of wierwille's ideology is to understand wierwille's the spirit good / matter evil maxim correlates to his body, soul, and spirit teaching – the trichotomy view of a Christian . wierwille defined soul as breath-life - which is an organic function of the body (matter) which is considered evil. I also recall something – I think it was Craig who referred to natural men and women (who do not have spirit) by the derogatory term “empties floating by”. Basically, this trichotomy view of a Christian goes against the biblical view that men and women are created in God’s image. The Bible does not state that they lost it in the Fall. We all assumed that from wierwille's wooden interpretation of Genesis 3...An interesting study is a look into the Hebrew definition of “death” – not that I will go into great detail here – but you’ll find basically it means “separation” rather than annihilation or total obliteration – i.e., cease to exist. That human beings still retain the image of God – though it may be tarnished is suggested in such passages Genesis 9:6 and James 3:9 which all refer to a time after the Fall in Genesis 3. That’s all for now, folks!

Some great points on biblical criticism, Chockfull ! and again what comes to mind in the context of this thread is the sloppy and superficial pretense of wierwille’s concern for supposedly getting back to “the authentic prophecy which was given when holy men of God spoke”. On another thread - Is PLAF theopneustos, god-breathed? - I quoted from the PFAL book, page 128 in chapter 11, “The Translations of the Word of God”, wierwille states: “Since we have no originals and the oldest manuscripts that we have date back to the fifth century A.D., how can we get back to the authentic prophecy which was given when holy men of God spoke? To get the Word of God out of any translation or out of any version, we have to compare one word with another and one verse with another verse. We have to study the context of all verses.” Okay – just stop and think about that for a minute…now I ask you – how does comparing one word with another, one verse with another and studying the context of all verses in any translation or version of the Bible get you back to “the authentic prophecy which was given when holy men of God spoke” ? What wierwille is describing is how second-hand information is compiled. It is just information received from others, rather than personally experienced or witnessed. wierwille is NOT looking at any actual ancient manuscript – but rather he’s looking at a TRANSLATION or VERSION of ancient manuscripts – that could be The King James Version, The New American Standard Bible, The New International Version, etc… So big deal – anyone can do that! Matter of fact, I have over 60 Bibles – actual printed Bibles on several shelves – various translations, study Bibles, critical Greek texts, The Hebrew Bible - the Tanakh, interlinears of Old & New Test., besides digital Bibles (ebooks) – I’m a little bit of a bookworm and study-bug…besides stuff you can find online – like John 1 ESV - go ahead click on that link, and then look to the right of where it has “John 1” – you’ll see “English Standard Version (ESV)” in a pulldown box…you can use that to change to other versions pretty cool huh…here’s another cool one John 1:1 - go ahead and click on that one – you’ll see that one verse in several different versions, great site for research tools too…So, let’s be honest about this - wierwille was NOT examining or analyzing the actual texts himself....something fishy about that - don't you think ? On that Is PLAF theopneustos, god-breathed? thread I asked a certain PFAL-fan “specifically what errors are there in the KJV - or in other translations, for that matter - that need to be addressed because it is mission critical to the church and/or one’s Christian faith? Or to put it another way - what errors does your manifesto confront and resolve to make your unique creed a better version of Christianity?” I never did get a straight answer. In that same post I also gave a reference to support my argument for the accuracy…authenticity…honesty of the ancient documents that still exist – I said “ I think we can shorten the discussion by just getting right to the heart of the matter; two notable scholars F.F. Bruce and Sir Frederic Kenyon – both with expertise in the historical reliability of the New Testament have stated that very little has been lost as to what was originally written in The New Testament Documents: Are They Reliable? By F.F.Bruce ... it says on pages 14 and 15: “The study of the kind of attestation found in MSS and quotations in later writers is connected with the approach known as Textual Criticism. This is a most important and fascinating branch of study, its object being to determine as exactly as possible from the available evidence the original words of the documents in question. It is easily proved by experiment that it is difficult to copy out a passage of any considerable length without making one or two slips at least. When we have documents like our New Testament writings copied and recopied thousands of times, the scope for copyists’ errors is so enormously increased that it is surprising there are no more than there actually are. Fortunately, if the great number of MSS increases the number of scribal errors, it increases proportionately the means of correcting such errors, so that the margin of doubt left in the process of recovering the exact original wording is not so large as might be feared; it is in truth remarkably small. The variant readings about which any doubt remains among textual critics of the New Testament affect no material question of historic fact or of Christian faith and practice. To sum up, we may quote the verdict of the late Sir Frederic Kenyon, a scholar whose authority to make pronouncements on ancient MSS was second to none: ‘The Interval then between the dates of original composition and the earliest extant evidence becomes so small as to be in fact negligible, and the last foundation for any doubt that the Scriptures have come down to us substantially as they were written has now been removed. Both the authenticity and the general integrity of the books of the New Testament may be regarded as finally established.’ “ I remember how wierwille spoke with such disdain for the higher criticism of ancient texts in PFAL..He didn’t know what he was talking about. Here’s one website that might explain the various types of textual criticism – and how it’s a good thing: “The Academic Study of the Bible and its Textual Content. In the academic discipline of biblical criticism the word "criticism" is not to be taken in the negative sense of attempting to denigrate the Bible. Technically, biblical criticism simply refers to the scholarly approach of studying, evaluating and critically assessing the Bible as literature in order to better understand its origins and the original intentions of its authors. It is the task of biblical criticism to collect and study various writings in which a text has been preserved, determine the changes that have occurred in the wording and arrangement of the text, assess the significance of such changes, and restore, if possible, the original wording, teachings or form of the text.” From : The Nazarene Way - biblical criticism See also Wikipedia – Biblical manuscripts Preservation of the Bible Faith Facts.org – manuscript evidence What a scam wierwille concocted – and executed through PFAL. Convince the young and naïve there are no original manuscripts…make like he knows better than Bible scholars and qualified translators who actually understand the biblical languages and study the existing manuscripts…but somehow wierwille can figure out what God originally said via the authors - by using nothing more than the King James Version…that is absolutely mind-blowing. more like mind-numbing. For a guy that went on and on about "the accuracy and integrity of the Word of God is always at stake"– he sure showed little concern for honesty or for the actual data in the existing manuscripts. Makes me wonder what his definition is of “The Word of God” yeah - time and time again his sloppy research and inept analysis was on full display – and there’s some real damning evidence in Undertow – if you haven’t read it yet – well…maybe it’s time you should. That’s all for now, folks

Great recommendation, Chockfull ! And yes, her book is a great exposé on some of the atrocious and unconscionable ways in which wierwille coerced the research department to distort the translation of a Greek word so it would agree with wierwille’s theology…The first time I read that in Undertow: My Escape from the Fundamentalism and Cult Control of The Way International I was shell-shocked ! …I mean this was the same guy who in PFAL would make such a big deal about “The Word means what it says and says what it means” – and all that drama of his in session 6 (I think) – the one where he gets into the fall of mankind in Genesis 3 – and the road down with Eve because wierwille emphasized if you CHANGE - - ADD - - DELETE even JUST ONE LITTLE WORD – “then you no longer have God’s Word”…but I guess it’s okay if wierwille does it, huh …I’ll say one good thing about wierwille, though. What an actor! He sure had me fooled. But you know, even with books like Undertow revealing such dark and unscrupulous traits of wierwille – it still blows my mind when I come across someone who refuses to believe the truth…I’m just stunned when I can’t understand the reasoning behind someone’s adamancy. On March 27th, 2018 I asked a certain Grease Spotter if he had a chance to read Penworks’ book…and just 23 minutes later he said this: “I have it and am slowly reading it. My first objection, though, is how she objected to the idea that "the Bible interprets itself." I find that objection very dim witted, even when pumped up with detail like with the posters that attacked it 15 years ago here. It slowed down my reading, but I still intend to finish it. That interpretation issue lowered my expectations and the book's priority in my schedule. In a nutshell: Imagine how quirky it is for God to issue His Word to communicate to us, but then He FAILS to put cues, keys, and signposts in there to guide sincere seekers. That sounds like a bad way to get a message out. It's like Him saying "I want you to know something but I will not help you understand it." The phrase "The Bible interprets itself" is an extreme abbreviation of a complex idea. She did not do that justice IMO. The criticism this idea got here 15 years ago I thought was similarly lacking. My impression was that she was leading uninformed readers into thinking God is supposed to be mysterious, an old Catholic idea. Maybe her book will get better later. If you can recommend a spot to skip ahead to I would appreciate seeing what you feel is an section important to me.” You can read their post as well as my response to what he said by this link > Plagiarism on the road to success – T-Bone’s post on Jan 7th, 2022 …alright - so my response was some 1382 days later – but time does not matter when you have a time machine…(well, I don’t have a time machine perse – but I did use an online calendar calculator to figure out how many days between two dates ). as you can imagine I was bowled over by his dismissive tone and absurd arguments…in a last-ditch attempt to get through to another human being lost in the awesome sauce of a cult-leader, I recommended another book Losing the Way: A Memoir of Spiritual Longing, Manipulation, Abuse, and Escape by Kristen Skedgell and noting his preference for something less cerebral and that cuts to the chase – I recommended he skip ahead to pages 117 to 120 of her book – where Kristen relates an incident of wierwille sexually molesting her in the Coachman Suite at the Rome City campus – and afterwards wierwille says “It’s the lockbox, honey. You have to keep this in the lockbox of your soul. Many of God’s people wouldn’t understand what we’ve just done.” …no kidding – I certainly don’t understand how a supposed minister…president and founder of a biblical research, teaching and fellowship ministry could do something like that to a Christian woman in his own congregation. that's all for now, folks

Maybe I’m old school…and I mean real old school…that’s what I was talking about in an earlier post – what were they preaching about in the first century…going by what I read in the book of Acts, it seems to be just the gospel - - the basic tenets of Christianity was the essence of their preaching – Jesus Christ is the promised Messiah, died for our sins/fulfilled all the requirements of the law for our justification, was raised from the dead, etc.. I don’t see any of them presenting the gospel as a cure-all for every problem or as the key to health and wealth – as PFAL and other prosperity preachers do. Like I said before if all that Christianity offered was Jesus Christ, I wonder how many PFAL-fans would be interested. Why does PFAL use the trappings of Christianity like bait to lure folks in? In to what? Increased prosperity? More harmony in the home? Make life meaningful? Enable you to separate truth from error? nope !!!! suckers fork over their MONEY for those promises/claims/benefits of PFAL – or rather the CHANCE TO SIT IN A CHAIR FOR HOURS AND LISTEN TO wierwille hawking those promises/claims/benefits of PFAL and HOW to receive them – and if the local TWI-leadership are good facilitators for an exploitative organization like TWI, I bet they can string some folks along for at least 4 or 5 years before they get frustrated and tired of the organization mooching off them. after 12 years of TWI mooching off me - do you know what I told them? That's all folks

WHY was PFAL made? I thought some more about what wierwille said – so copying a section of my previous post I highlighted in bold red what got my curiosity up: In the AUTHORIZED book on TWI, titled “The Way Living in Love” (by Elena S. Whiteside, co 1972, American Christian Press, Library of Congress Catalog Card Number 72-89132), on page 178 Whiteside quotes wierwille as he talked about his long search for definitive answers…wierwille stated “I was praying. And I told Father outright that He could have the whole thing, unless there were real genuine answers that I wouldn't ever have to back up on. And that's when He spoke to me audibly, just like I'm talking to you now. He said He would teach me the Word as it had not been known since the first century if I would teach it to others. Well, I nearly flew off my chair. I couldn't believe that God would talk to me.” “real genuine answers that I wouldn't ever have to back up on” – was he worried about losing a debate? When someone must backpedal – they’re reversing their previous action or opinion – a hasty backward move…But it hits me more like a shady salesman in search of something to sell...like he was searching for the ultimate product...something "guaranteed" to work - "uhm - got to work on that part though...come up with some kind of disclaimer...yeah that's the ticket." And sell he does! The name of the class is Power For ABUNDANT Living. One of the claims of the class is that it “increases prosperity” – it’s in writing even – on the back of the green PFAL signup card…In the class wierwille says there are over 900 promises in God’s Word. But he stipulates you can’t benefit from that UNLESS you KNOW what’s available and HOW to receive them…now here’s the rub. It all depends on YOUR believing…because wierwille teaches the law of believing - that works for saint and sinner alike (some folks tend to confuse it with The Force in Star Wars…but nope- this is slightly different and began a long time ago – well before 1977 anyway…in a cult far far away)…in case you haven’t realized it by now, this law-of-believing-nonsense was part of the “real genuine answer” to wierwille’s prayer that he “wouldn't ever have to back up on” – the equivalent of a disclaimer - a statement that denies responsibility. Only this disclaimer is not in fine print at the end of an extremely long and complicated legal document. That it-all-depends-on-YOUR-believing disclaimer is repeated over and over again throughout an extremely long and convoluted class of plagiarized material – called Power For Abundant Living. Ephesians 3:20 should relieve us of any concerns that God is limited by our believing – for he is able to do exceedingly abundantly above all that we could ask or think…I wonder if wierwille could be one of the forerunners of the health & wealth gospel. I don’t know…doesn’t matter to me now anyway…I’m done with being a sucker in that con game. It’s really weird to see Christianity as a warm market for “righteous soft-sell” tactics. What if the only thing that Christianity offers is Jesus Christ. I wonder how many PFAL-fans would be interested in something like that…One of the first really thought-provoking books I read after leaving TWI was Beyond Seduction: A Return to Biblical Christianity by Dave Hunt . WHY was PFAL made? I remember the excitement I felt when I first took the class in New York. There was even some things wierwille said in the class early on that got me thinking I couldn’t wait to share this stuff with family and friends. And share I did! I was a walking talking PFAL brochure. I’d share all kinds of stuff from the class…but then came buzzkill from my new Twig coordinator – when I’d brag about my mass-marketing campaign – several times he’d put the kibosh on my efforts by “advising” me to get them to our Twig so we could sign them up for the next PFAL class. "You just don't go giving all this stuff away." Being a newbie that hit me as kind of odd – so I guess the truth will set you free BUT the truth itself is NOT free. Oh well, live and learn. Maybe that’s WHY PFAL was made. That’s all for now folks. (depending on when you started counting that’s either the fifth or sixth wave)

Looks interesting- I’ll have to check it out - thanks Twinky !

Why do we need PFAL? In the AUTHORIZED book on TWI, titled “The Way Living in Love” (by Elena S. Whiteside, co 1972, American Christian Press, Library of Congress Catalog Card Number 72-89132), on page 178 Whiteside quotes wierwille as he talked about his long search for definitive answers…wierwille stated “I was praying. And I told Father outright that He could have the whole thing, unless there were real genuine answers that I wouldn't ever have to back up on. And that's when He spoke to me audibly, just like I'm talking to you now. He said He would teach me the Word as it had not been known since the first century if I would teach it to others. Well, I nearly flew off my chair. I couldn't believe that God would talk to me.” Expanding on what I said in my previous post: “Think about the early days of the 1st century church. They didn’t have little New Testaments to pass out for witnessing or to follow along with while in church. They didn’t have a complicated theological system and didn’t need to teach converts the keys to the interpretation of The Word - they EXPERIENCED and SHARED about the Living Word - Jesus Christ. Mark 16:20 says they simply went forth and preached everywhere, the Lord WORKING WITH them.” I add the following... Contrary to wierwille’s IMAGINATION of how HE THOUGHT “The Word” was made known in the first century – there is scriptural evidence to indicate Jesus as well as famous preachers like Paul had to rely on whatever scrolls were available in local synagogues… Acts 17:1-4 ESV mentions a typical means used by Paul: ‘Now when they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where there was a synagogue of the Jews. And Paul went in, as was his custom, and on three Sabbath days he reasoned with them from the Scriptures, explaining and proving that it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead, and saying, “This Jesus, whom I proclaim to you, is the Christ.” And some of them were persuaded and joined Paul and Silas, as did a great many of the devout Greeks and not a few of the leading women.” The only “Bible” in Jesus’ and Paul’s day were copies of scrolls of what we’ve come to know as the Old Testament see Bible Hub - The Bible in the Days of Jesus Christ - and it’s not like every synagogue or other repository for religious / sacred writings had the ENTIRE Old Testament. An interesting side study is the formation of the Old Testament…”It was during the reign of Hezekiah of Judah in the 8th century B.C. that historians believe what would become the Old Testament began to take form, the result of royal scribes recording royal history and heroic legends. During the reign of Josiah in the 6th century B.C., the books of Deuteronomy and Judges were compiled and added. The final form of the Hebrew Bible developed over the next 200 years when Judah was swallowed up by the expanding Persian Empire.” ( from History website - how the Bible was formed ). According to one answer offered on the internet: “…Your average synagogue in Jesus’ day would likely have no scrolls at all, and not even a building. Please remember that Jesus lived during the Second Temple Era. Rabbinical Judaism centered around synagogues did not develop until after the destruction of the Jerusalem Temple some four decades after Jesus’ death. During Jesus’ lifetime, the typical synagogue was just a group of villagers who met to decide local matters according to what they knew of the law, much of which would have been transmitted orally in the rural area of Galilee where Jesus lived, where there weren’t even any Roman roads. In the larger towns/cities the synagogue would have met indoors, and would likely have had scrolls containing the Law. But the Hebrew Bible or Tanakh (which Christians call the “Old Testament”) containing the Law, the Prophets, and the Writings had not yet been established as a canon. Various groups used various collections of scrolls, not all of which agreed with the official scrolls held at the Temple in Jerusalem. And at the time of Jesus, when the legitimate Zadokite priests had been replaced by Rome with Idumean priests, who had no scriptural authority to hold their positions in the first place, many groups considered the current Temple leadership to be illegitimate. The followers of Jesus, for example, were into the Enoch traditions, which were relatively recent and generally not considered authoritative. In short, a synagogue at the time of Jesus was nothing at all like a modern synagogue. It was not involved in worship, which was centralized in Jerusalem officially but also still took place in various rural “high places” where there were altars and in homes. Rather, the synagogue was more like a local court which decided what to do about all the minutiae contained in the Law, such as divorces, how to compensate someone whose livestock had been allegedly harmed by someone else, what punishment to mete out to a thief, and so forth. Whether or not an actual Torah scroll was available depended on how large and wealthy the place was.” From Quora - During Jesus' time, would the average synagogue have had all the Old Testament scrolls? Even a quick search on the internet of WHEN The Bible was written will give you a wide variety of answers – NONE of which will support wierwille’s FANTASY that God would teach him the Word as it had not been known SINCE the FIRST CENTURY…wierwille’s ABSURD, RIDICULOUSLY FANTASTIC CLAIM makes God look like an idiot who never paid attention at a college or seminary (whether accredited or not ) when curriculum got into the history on how we got the book known as The Bible. Wikipedia – Dating the Bible Wikipedia – The New Testament Bible Gateway Blog - When Was Each Book of the Bible Written? Grace To You.org - When were the Bible books written? Biblical Archaeology.org – When was the Bible written? United Church of God.org - When were the books of the Bible written? CARM.org - When was the Bible written and who wrote it? By Matt Slick The International Bible Society - When was the Bible written? Why did I take the PFAL class? Good question… There were a lot of reasons...but I’ll mention the one that best relates to this and my previous post. I was looking for some definitive answers. The claims of benefits on the back of the green PFAL sign-up card seemed to me to be the ticket to definitive answers. Little did I know it was wierwille’s idea of definitive answers – which is PFAL - an insidious fourfold mix of 1. his signature intuition... 2. dogmatic fundamentalism... 3. pontificating demonology / spiritualism i.e., the “mechanics” of EXACTLY HOW stuff works in the spiritual realm... and 4. Gnosticism – the secret knowledge - “the keys” to the interpretation of “The Word” and experiencing the same knowledge and power of the first century church in our day and time and hour.” oh well, live and learn...I was young and naive...It all sounded good to me at the time... A really good con man will sell you the shirt off your own back...I think I’ve learned more about the Bible and experienced more of what life and freedom should be about since I left TWI. Interesting lines in the song Tin Man by America: “Sometimes late when things are real And people share the gift of gab between themselves Some are quick to take the bait And catch the perfect prize that waits among the shells But Oz never did give nothing to the Tin Man That he didn't, didn't already have” = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Why do we need PFAL? I don't...we don't That’s all for now, folks ! (<that is my first wave) That’s all for now, folks ! (< and that is my second wave) (but if you you're reckoning from my previous post - I guess these are the second and third waves...I dunno I'm confused now... .... ok that's it for now... yikes - a fourth wave ?!?! ...or is it? ...oh W.O.W. the fifth wave... alright - bonus question for extra points: who was the fifth Beatle? )

Never mind a 2nd wave or even a 1st wave. Why do we need PFAL? I’ve been on a kick of researching Gnosticism and reading certain New Testament “letters” in light of the problems they address. The epistles of John and Colossians are probably the most notable letters to deal directly with a dangerous heresy that arose. Gnosticism wasn’t even a thing at that point - “Gnostics” didn’t call themselves that - it was a label that critics put on them - cuz they were all about having “gnosis” - a secret KNOWLEDGE. Think about the early days of the 1st century church. They didn’t have little New Testaments to pass out for witnessing or to follow along with while in church. They didn’t have a complicated theological system and didn’t need to teach converts the keys to the interpretation of The Word - they Experienced and SHARED about the Living Word - Jesus Christ. Mark 16:20 says they simply went forth and preached everywhere, the Lord WORKING WITH them. Why do we need PFAL? Honestly - I’m asking all PFAL-fans, why does ANYONE need PFAL? Paul’s goal in writing the Colossians was that they may be encouraged in heart and united in love, so that they may have the full riches of complete understanding, in order that they may know the mystery of God, namely, Christ, in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. I tell you this so that no one may deceive you by fine-sounding arguments. (See Colossians 2) Some scholars have said the issues that Paul addresses in certain letters are probably an incipient form of what later became known as Gnosticism; at its early stage it was essentially a religious-philosophical fused attitude, not a well-defined system of thought. The esoteric exclusiveness and asceticism of its adherents had a negative effect on Christian freedom and was derogatory to the idea that the Holy Spirit could dwell in our evil human bodies – see the correlation in passages that correct the error of some seeking spiritual deliverance through philosophy and ascetic practices of self-abasement and severity to the body Colossians 2 - and how knowledge puffs up I Corinthians 13 and Paul warning against myths, speculations and vain discussions in I Timothy 1 . In the epistles of John, we find Gnosticism was distinguished by an unethical, loveless intellectualism and repeatedly condemned antinomianism which is a belief which rejects laws or legalism and argues against moral, religious or social norms. It’s not that hard to see how one gets from the asceticism of Gnosticism to libertarianism that advocates total freedom – especially in thought and conduct. If one views spirit as good and matter as evil then it’s possible one can slip into an indifference toward anything done in the physical realm. wierwille’s theology in PFAL and expanded in the Advanced Class has virulent Gnostic strains – I don’t mean to suggest he deliberately and formally adopted Gnosticism. I merely want to point out there is an element of wierwille’s ideology that seems to hearken back to a Gnostic mindset. There is the tendency to lean heavily on speculation – especially in PFAL and the Advanced Class, the arrogant attitude fueled by thinking one has more of "the rightly-divided Word of God than any other ministry", practicing situation ethics – being flexible in the application of moral laws according to circumstances, and lastly intellectualism having a higher priority than faith, compassion, and altruism in other words, studying or teaching “The Word” is often thought of as doing “The Word” or is thought of as equivalent to exercising faith, selflessness and goodwill. Since one way to define Gnosticism as being a religious-philosophical fused attitude makes me think of Matthew 6:24 “No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money.” And that makes me think of the four biggies of importance and success that any of us can get caught up in – the relentless pursuit of fame, fortune, power, and pleasure. It would be impossible to determine what led wierwille to feel he had a superior knowledge or the fact that he lacked good moral principles; I have this two-bit-interpretation of Matthew 6:24 that people can make a religion out of just about anything – if you define religion by theory and practice then it could be really anything one is extremely devoted to, a belief system that involves worship of whatever – which means it’s the ultimate pursuit or of the utmost interest to which someone ascribes supreme importance; in that regard it could be based on self-interest, one’s own imagination and might even include one’s personal preferences even a predilection against what is good or proper. We’ve heard of “the self-made man” which refers to one who became successful and/or wealthy through hard work - not by inheritance or help from others. I don’t think it’s too far-fetched that people can subscribe to a self-made religion. Which would probably be fascinating studies on idolatry and hypocrisy – both Biblical and secular. It’s ridiculous to argue about “the good stuff” in PFAL - whether it’s plagiarized homogenized pasteurized or immortalized. It just doesn’t matter. We don’t need PFAL. We don’t need anyone’s poor substitute or additions to what we already have with Christ. We don’t need keys to unlock a supposed secret knowledge. We don’t need PFAL and its pseudo-Christian support systems (TWI and offshoots) and for that matter we don’t need any of PFAL’s rogue flunkies either. That’s all for now folks!

Thanks for those fascinating links on leviathan and the Norse world serpent - and I can’t help but see some parallels with a harmful and controlling cult…how cults have an us-versus-them mentality …leviathan (cults) being at enmity with the world and then they get you to think the same way…the cult’s enemies become our enemies…the Norse serpent coils itself tighter and tighter around the little cult-world that we live in , in preparation for the great battles against any family, friends and logic outside the camp. Also ideas of chaos and even the “creative” power of chaos come to mind… out of chaos and disorder a reordering is possible…demolish and then rebuild…I think of brainwashing- they break you down and then rebuild you to their liking… a life-changing event is something that has such a big effect on you that it causes you to reassess your goals and maybe even “re-tool” them and how you’re going to achieve them… life-changing can be positive or negative… joining a harmful and controlling cult , becoming an alcoholic - both life-changing… surviving a cult, joining a rehab program also life-changing…that is all.

Oh, so sorry – thanks for letting me know - I must have missed that info or forgot about it…I certainly meant no disrespect. My belated condolences to family and friends

Great post, Steve ! I was looking through some old threads recently and came upon this one…your post touched on something I’ve wondered about for a long time…getting down to the nuts and bolts of HOW the Bible was ACTUALLY WRITTEN…I don’t mean history of the development of language or writing, or even oral history…ASSUMING God really did have a message to convey to human beings…I’ve never given it much thought as to HOW God did that...anyway...not sure if this relates to what you said - but I think it might... In PFAL wierwille went into that a little bit. He referred to II Timothy 3:16 “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness” . However, wierwille did not go into great detail on EXACTLY HOW God inspired the writers…I picked up a pretty nifty book at Half Price Books awhile back – thought I’d share some stuff from it…here it goes: What role did the human authors play in the writing of The Bible? To what degree were they allowed to express the God-given message in a manner consistent with their own personalities? According to Bill Arnold & Bryan Beyer in their survey “Encountering the Old Testament”, scholars who have wrestled with these questions have proposed many theories. Four of the most common are: 1. Neo-orthodoxy theory: conceived in the early 20th century, partly as a reaction to liberalism’s disregard for divine authority. Karl Barth and Emil Brunner are two of its leading proponents. Neo-orthodoxy holds that God is utterly transcendent – meaning God is absolutely different from us and far beyond our comprehension. Neo-orthodoxy differs from evangelicalism in that neo-orthodoxy asserts the Bible is a WITNESS to the Word of God or CONTAINS the Word of God – whereas evangelicalism holds that the Bible IS the Word of God. According to neo-orthodoxy the writers recorded their experiences with God the best they could – but being human, their writings sometimes contained paradoxes or errors. 2. Dictation theory: suggests God simply dictated the Bible to human scribes – giving them the EXACT words God WANTED – writing ONLY what God dictated to them. This view generally doesn’t appear in print but has sometimes been suggested by some segments of Christianity – some conservative and fundamentalist groups. 3. Limited inspiration theory: holds that God inspired the thoughts of the biblical writers, but not necessarily the words they chose. God guided the thoughts of the writers, but he gave them freedom to express those thoughts in their own style. Having that freedom, some historical errors as well as ancient and often erroneous concepts of physical sciences, life sciences, and Earth sciences may be found. 4. Plenary verbal inspiration theory: like the other views plenary verbal inspiration asserts the Holy Spirit interacted with the writers to produce the Bible. “Plenary” means “full” or “complete”. “Plenary” inspiration asserts that God’s inspiration extends to ALL of Scripture – WHICH INCLUDES when the writers recorded any historical, physical science and life science details. “Verbal” refers to the WORDS of Scripture. “Verbal inspiration” means God’s inspiration extends to THE VERY WORDS the writers chose – but it is not the same as # 2 the dictation theory. The writers could have chosen other words, and God often allowed them the freedom to express their own personalities as they wrote – but the Holy Spirit still guided the process so that the finished product faithfully conveyed God’s message. Notes are Encountering the Old Testament: A Christian Survey by Bill Arnold & Bryan Beyer, pages 24 to 26 I’m of the opinion that the way one thinks the Bible was written will influence the way one interprets and applies the Bible. There ARE a FEW accounts in Scripture that indicate God communicated a word-for-word message – but assuming God is also the creator of the cosmos – with superlative attributes like omniscience, omnipotence, omnipresence, etc. - and the fact that we find historical errors as well as ancient and often erroneous concepts of physical sciences, life sciences, and Earth sciences rules out the dictation theory for me. Of course, that’s just my opinion. I find myself leaning toward a mix of # 1 neo-orthodoxy and # 3 limited inspiration theory. Again - that’s just my opinion…Though these theories of how the Bible was written seem simple enough to describe – the impact of which one or more of these we choose may be profound to our understanding. I think a student of the Bible should be AWARE of the ASSUMPTIONS they hold and WHY, when reading, interpreting, and applying Scripture. In an attempt to address this thread’s topic “Can the Bible still be God-breathed even if it "contradicts" itself?”, I wonder if “contradicts” is really the best word to describe the issue. “Contradict” means to assert the opposite, be in conflict with, oppose…perhaps contradictions are more a matter for a theological-philosophical debate…But if we ask, “Can the Bible still be God-breathed even if it contains historical and scientific errors?” – then we get into the extent or limitations of God’s inspiration - and that gets into THEORY - a supposition or system of IDEAS intended to EXPLAIN something, especially one based on general principles independent of the thing to be explained.

GREAT post , Skyrider ! ! ! !

It’s embarrassing to think of how I bought into all that stuff. The same speculative nonsense wierwille use to propound. It begins with something from the Bible, reinterpret or twist a verse or two, then speak authoritatively (and I assumed they had empirical evidence coming out the wazoo) on the mechanisms involved in the process. Like wierwille’s “great principle” – “god who is spirit teaches his creation in you...etc.". Thus being born of wrong seed you get a permanent wedge installed. On LEAD we used to kid about Satan giving someone a permanent wedgy. And from that we jokingly reasoned being born again of incorruptible seed made us “The Unwedgeables”. oh wait - can I use that emoji? Am I sending mixed messages

Ok – I’ll try to steer it back (goes to link OldSkool provided - 5 alcoholic types page 2 - looks over types – copies and pastes functional subtype) “The functional subtype accounts for about 19% of U.S. alcoholics. They're generally middle-aged, working adults who tend to have stable relationships, more education, and higher incomes than other alcoholics. They tend to drink every other day, often consuming five or more drinks on drinking days.” To answer an old question by OldSkool, after looking at the link he provided, I think wierwille was a functional subtype of alcoholic…seems to check all the boxes anyway: middle-aged - about 45 to 65, uh huh…I mean check! working adults – while he was “working The Word” he had all of us peons working our a$$ off at the Rock, corps week, campus locations, big events…check! stable relationship - not likely to change or fail; firmly established – yup - wierwille was a harmful and controlling cult-leader. That’s a pretty solid connection between cult-leader and followers, isn’t it? Oh, and technically all the women in the kingdom belong to the king. That’s beaucoup “relationships” right? Check! more education – personally taught by God. Check! higher incomes – he was living large thanks to YOUR abundant sharing! Check! They tend to drink every other day – I think he was drunk EVERY day he taught at PFAL 77. That’s above and beyond the call of functional alcoholic! The Bible says we’re supposed to go the extra mile. Check! often consuming five or more drinks on drinking days – at Rome City campus I had a closer vantage point than at PFAL 77 – but it’s hard to say how many times his mug of Drambuie was refilled when we were in a meeting (to be honest - sometimes I nodded off and lost count ); and also, that’s not counting when he was backstage or in the Coachmen’s Suite. Check, check, check, check, check, check, check, check ...zzzzzzZZZZZZz oh well, Twinky I tried.

Great recommendation !!!! You're spot-on with those lessons you've pointed out ! I love that show !!!!

Great post Twinky and a great follow up to your thread-starter-post! I'm saving this stuff in a file.

Thanks Twinky, It’s probably best to leave the stuff of my ridiculously long post right where it is…it’s just another one of those annoying and extremely long infomercials* (though it’s UNPAID programming ) on a life-changing experience of surviving a harmful and controlling cult. Since being in a cult can have such a strong effect that it changes one's life – I thought it best to endorse a…product?...service?...process?...yes, process, that is absolutely free and already in one’s reach – self-determination!...I’m also assuming we’re allowed to have more than one life-changing experience. As the first post on this thread hinted at – those “glory years” of wierwille/TWI, in retrospect by many are now thought of as the gory years because of the cruelty…the psychological torture…the exploiting…the molesting…the manipulation by a harmful and controlling cult. Speaking of prayer – think I’ll reread E M Bounds the Classic Collection on Prayer it’s been a few years since I read it last. *Infomercial disclaimer: Though most viewers have come to regard infomercials with skepticism as sometimes the exaggerated claims do not live up to expectations, my ad campaigns are designed to shoot down the exaggerated claims made by TWI. The target audience is anyone in TWI who has a strong sense of disillusionment derived from the failure of TWI to fulfill its declared claims/goals.

did someone mention "The Blue Book" ?

Revisiting an idea idea I had expressed earlier on this thread , I thought I’d elaborate on my own struggles to overcome the mental baggage of a lingering TWI-mindset…also known as how to break free from a rigid mindset when you realize you are wrong. There was resentment- not only the bitter indignation at having been treated unfairly by TWI-leadership and fellow-way corps when I resigned in 1986 - but at times even being irritated (though unjustly) at work associates who either did not know or did not understand what it’s like to survive a harmful and controlling cult. However - just so you know there were some coworkers I became good friends with - and I did talk with them about my involvement with a harmful and controlling cult. And I also would like to add that once I started posting on Grease Spot I found it got easier and easier to relate my experience to these good friends - something about speaking my mind here helped me to articulate my story to non-TWI folks and overcome the stigma of a former cult-follower. Thanks Paw and all Grease Spotters !!!! There was this time - several years AFTER I had left TWI. There was a quartermaster over our company’s security equipment inventory. He was a Christian and let everyone know about it. It was common knowledge this married man was a womanizer and a cheat. You could usually find him down at the commissary in this big office building during a lunch break eyeballing and making lewd remarks about the women that walked by. Sometimes he’d take extremely long lunch breaks to go home and mow his yard -at least that’s what he told us he did - while all of us techs were WAITING OUTSIDE the quartermaster’s dungeon to get parts for our next install or service call. I’ve witnessed several times when the company’s chief operating officer would get on him after receiving complaints from women who worked in other offices or after us techs would explain why we were late to an install or service call. The quartermaster knew I was a Christian and so I guess he figured he’d have a sympathetic audience to vent his feelings of embarrassment and frustration after a visit from the COO. He’d go on about how he is praying for God’s justice to fall on the COO…what the fvck ?!?!?! Side note here: On Grease Spot I may appear to be a person that’s not afraid to be confrontational - but in person - especially back at that time - I would just keep my opinions to myself. So I just held my peace and would not react to his temper tantrums. A few years later I was promoted to installation and service coordinator. If you know me you’d know I have a strong desire to be knowledgeable, a commitment to technical standards, and love to be organized to within an inch of perfection. Now I was given the opportunity of training techs and to master the logistics of installs and service calls. I had a huge calendar for a desk pad, a computer terminal (we’re gonna party like it’s 1990) so I could access the customer data base and see type of system they had and their Mapsco # - and of course I had several Mapsco Maps for all the areas we covered. Sometimes due to a heavy workload I felt it was necessary to call a new customer and see if there was some flexibility on the salesperson’s promised arrival time of the tech. Usually most were flexible. There were some who weren’t. And wouldn’t you know it, over-scheduled techs driving in a metroplex’s heavy traffic would be late - sometimes the new customer would call…complain…reschedule…or cancel…then the salespersons would complain to the COO about me screwing things up. One day the COO yells at me in front of everyone “you’ve got to stop pi$$ing people off” (his exact words) - the people I pi$$ed off were some of the sales reps that didn’t make a sales commission from a cancelled new install. Inside I was fuming mad. How dare he blame me for the over-scheduling frenzy of some aggressive sales reps! I was eaten up with anger and resentment for days. I kept thinking of the quartermaster’s vengeful attitude after the COO’s confronting him. My situation was different - I felt I knew what I was doing and did the best I could in an over-scheduling nightmare - but I also knew it didn’t warrant wishing ill on my boss. And I could not think of anything helpful from what I was taught about prayer in TWI. Anyway…about a week later our family went on a much-needed getaway to Lake Murray. Relaxing with just the family is always a good thing (never took vacations when I was in TWI…going to the Rock and corps week don’t count) and sometimes whenever I settle down and want real inspiration and more specific directions than the pseudo-intellectualism and superfluous pontificating abstractions of TWI-dogma - I usually read the Gospels. doing that on this getaway - I came across 3 chapters which mark a watershed moment in surviving…recovering from a harmful and controlling cult’s mindset. They’re Matthew 5, 6 and 7 and in all Jesus talks about how I will truly start understanding and appreciating God’s forgiveness to me when I forgive other sinners…debtors…trespassers (depending on the translation ) and to live out a MATURE SINCERE love - to folks who are pleasant or difficult…which is a reflection of our Father who "makes the sun rise on the evil and on the good and sends rain on the just and on the unjust." And once I remove the log in my own eye so I can see clearly to remove the speck in my brother’s eye. This went counter to what wierwille taught me on that “mindless prayer “ (that’s code for you-know-what…I’ll just let that sit for a moment) that leaves the understanding “unfruitful “ and is impotent to produce a God-pleasing transformation in the life of the one praying. I think a good healthy Christian attitude is a genuine desire to please God - and not inflate your ego over all the great things you supposedly did to “move The Word” . ..And it also went counter to the blame-shifting, ignoring, avoiding and the ever-popular-role-reversal-switcheroo tactic that TWI-leadership would use when anyone dared to confront THEIR inappropriate behavior - this classic Harry-Potter-ish spell is invoked by them saying the following “the love of god thinketh no evil.” And to give the incantation an authentic wizardry flavor to the charming King’s English charm it should be followed immediately with something that ends with a Latin twist - for example “Lo Shonta Mecca Lekka High etcetera etcetera etcetera.” ...and hocus pocus now YOU'RE in the wrong for confronting them ! Yo, check it out Grease Spotters - and any TWI-followers trying to relive the glory days. In Matthew 5 Jesus said: “But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you…” Jesus goes on to say “…that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust…” Alright now hold on…leave you finger in the dike just a little longer - you just might prevent a overwhelming deluge of TWI-isms flowing through your consciousness- at least for a few minutes …as you think about Matthew 6: 9 - 13 NLT. Where we find the Lord’s Prayer …ah yes I still sort of remember wierwille in PFAL telling me why I shouldn’t pray that prayer …but it really doesn’t matter what wierwille said anyway. What’s important is what Jesus Christ said - he is The Logos - The Word…”and remember, class The Word means what it says and says what it means…dats riiiiiiight “ …anyway…here ‘tis : Our Father in heaven, may your name be kept holy. May your Kingdom come soon. May your will be done on earth, as it is in heaven. Give us today the food we need, and forgive us our sins, as we have forgiven those who sin against us. And don’t let us yield to temptation, but rescue us from the evil one. So I started slowly doing a serious makeover of my prayer-life…for those in TWI that means prayer in my understanding…Even before this “epiphany “ I had quit doing that mindless-prayer-thing having realized I faked it in session 12…but self-reflection and honesty can be a good thing - yes I had stopped spinning my wheels but now I could make the rubber meet the road and experience the transforming…character shaping power of mindful prayer…I did NOT pray for God’s justice to fall on my boss - instead I prayed for the health and well-being of him and his family. I was thankful for his honesty, integrity and expertise in management and would pray for any personal or professional concerns that he might mention to me. The relationship with my boss continued to improve…and a few years later our company was sold and the COO, myself and a few other techs accepted a lateral transfer that was offered by the parent company. The former COO was AGAIN my boss as manager over our tech staff. My boss once gave me a pretty cool compliment in front of all the techs when he was trying to deflate the egos of some new hot-dog techs and stressed being a team-player instead of going for super-stardom… he pointed to me and said “ take a tip from that guy. Yeah he knows his stuff and could probably out-tech most of us here but what’s really great about him is that he can work well with others.” ...redeemed how I love to proclaim it, redeemed by the words of my boss ...just kidding "I often say this stuff to keep my young people awake." Hello ! Is anyone still reading this post? Good for you…I wish I could give you a special award. You deserve it If you fell asleep during the intermission (wait - there was an intermission?) don’t fret - I forgive you… i can relate …I slept through most of my way corps training...here's my yearbook picture from the way corps > here's a bunch of us at a night owl > no wait…that was at corps night… ...oh here's a picture of the one guy who dropped out of our corps > for obvious reasons...if memory serves...he was the guy always complaining about headaches and bruises on his forehead...if you ask me, I think it was his believing...or rather his lack of believing the bull$hit. …but anyway - here we are at the moral of this gosh-awful-long-post…or rather just a few points I want to make pertinent to this thread and its twists and turns…don’t touch that dial! I do NOT think of anyone in TWI, offshoots, or on Grease Spot as my enemy. I often have MINDFUL prayer for all those I’ve just mentioned. When I pray for them I do NOT wish for ill will on anyone - nor do I pray for anyone to see things my way - as if I’m always right on everything - after all we’re all bozos on this planet…or any other planet we plan on colonizing…and now my points: 1. What DO I pray for? Good question. In light of Jesus’ directives in Matthew 5 & 6: I pray the person is having chances to self-reflect and the strength to be honest. I don’t ever expect to see evidence of that - I mean…that would be nice but it’s more important their reflection inspires a God-pleasing change (whatever that might be) than me getting a chance to say “see, I told you so!” After all I might not have the right idea on what they should be doing anyway…but God does. I don’t always do this - but I try to remember to pray in the sentiment of redemption and reconciliation of Romans 12:17 - 21: 17 Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everyone. 18 If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone. 19 Do not take revenge, my dear friends, but leave room for God’s wrath, for it is written: “It is mine to avenge; I will repay, "says the Lord. 20 On the contrary: “If your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink. In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head.” 21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good. 2. Forgiveness: - Yes that’s a toughie. Not always easy and not something I always do. But I probably practice forgiveness a lot more than you may think I do. You’re probably thinking “yeah, right - as much as you rag on wierwille, and big-wierwille / PFAL-fans.” This is probably too cerebral for some folks to understand but I don’t think there’s anything wrong with speaking angrily about manipulative, deceptive, controlling, exploitative tactics. The Bible DOES say speak the truth in love. And as I mentioned in point 1, the goal is reconciliation. According to Jesus in Matthew 5 - reconciliation even has a higher priority than WORSHIP: 21 Ye have heard that it was said of them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: 22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. 23 Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee; 24 Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift. 3. the redemptive / reconciliation dynamic: One thing that is frustrating about wierwille passing away - is that he lost a chance to come clean…to right his wrongs…not that he didn’t repent before God on his deathbed - but he lost his chance to reconcile with those he offended and hurt. That would also give those he’s hurt an opportunity to forgive - and then both parties could be released from bondage. forgiveness is the decision to write off and set someone FREE from the debt they owe you - an apology, affirmation, time, a relationship, money, etc. As the forgiving person you are released from the captivity of bitterness…resentment…holding a grudge. And just so you know, it’s possible to pick up the pieces and move on even if the perpetrator has died and the offense is left unresolved. People have been doing that since the beginning of us humans being on this little planet…it’s the way of life…you make mistakes…people hurt you…you hurt others…sometimes things go unsettled or remain in perpetual limbo…we do what we can to manage anyway…we learn how to live with the scar tissue…anyway... Check out what Jesus said in Matthew 7: 1 - 6 and 12: Judge not, that you be not judged. 2 For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you. 3 Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? 4 Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when there is the log in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye. 12 “So whatever you wish that others would do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets. Now SOME of you reading this - don’t get up in arms and try to pull the the ever-popular-role-reversal-switcheroo tactic on me…or any other defense mechanism of hypocrites garnered from the deep “research and teaching” of.... the adventures of super-DUPER-wierwille.: Faster than a speeding bullet whenever he is double-talking. More powerful than a locomotive when he’s got you tied up physically, emotionally, socially or financially on his one-track mind. Able to leap over copyright laws with a single bound copy of the PFAL book. Look! Up on the stage! It's The Word. It's the “plain” reinterpretation of The Word. It’s the old idle idol himself, super-DUPER-wierwille! Yes it’s It's super-DuPER-wierwille! strange visitor from an alternate reality who came to the real-world with powers and abilities far beyond those run-of-the-mill-shysters. Super-DUPER-wierwille ! who can change any course of the mighty curriculum in the way corps training program bend the meaning of any verse with his bare intellect and who disguised as “Doctor” Wierwille , the bedside ill-mannered predator for a supposedly “great biblical, research, teaching and fellowship ministry” fights a never-ending battle against truth, justice and wierwille’s way or it’s the highway. 4. Grease Spot Cafe is a multipurpose platform: Among other things - besides revealing the dark underbelly of “the beast” it also can facilitate the forgiveness / redemption / reconciliation dynamics (see points 1, 2 & 3). On another thread about TWI having a new member on the board of directors - some Grease Spotters had some nice things to say about the person. I think that’s cool. Hey, I’m all for TWI falling apart - BUT - in the meantime any good people still in TWI ( and I applaud your dream and efforts to make things better) I’m all for you “sabotaging “ any of the harmful and controlling tactics of TWI. …and I’ll see you at The Rock - uhm I mean the Spot (breaks into song) "celebration time, come on !"

Even fools are thought wise if they keep silent, and discerning if they hold their tongues. Proverbs 17:28 Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and to remove all doubt. — ABRAHAM LINCOLN. Being a self-described verbose person with aspirations of comedic surrealism and hopes of someday receiving the gift ministry of a class clown - I obviously have an affinity for those proverbs. But on a less silly note, I often wonder what is the ACTUAL REASON when someone exhibits such a rigid mindset as to firmly embrace what is wrong - even defying reason and what is morally upright. I believe that secret may only reside in a higher power. Since that does not satisfy my desire to know, the default reason I tend to gravitate toward is one of the most powerful motivators - love. Love will make…or enable you to do some amazing…even death-defying acts…or compassionate acts…but on the flip side of love - if it has a dark underbelly - there are those “amazing” logic-defying callous acts that are driven by a strong attraction or attachment to a perverse ideology.

great answer, Twinky !!!!!