T-Bone

Weighing in on this stuff – I just want to be upfront and honest beforehand and say I have ZERO experience in discerning of spirits or any other of the “manifestations” as taught by wierwille – and ZERO expertise in psychological matters. I’ve never tried to develop a model of mental illness that may include the possibility of demonization – but that doesn’t mean I’m not curious about the topic. Matter of fact, that curiosity has been the driving force behind a lot of my personal study projects since I left TWI in 1986. The issues mentioned on this thread have been at the forefront of my quest to unravel my cult-experience and the harmful and controlling nature of cult-leaders, false teachers, and ravenous wolves. Being a self-confessed Bible-study-bug and a bookworm, my natural inquisitiveness has led me to fascinating Bible studies, theological discussions as well as studies in secular work of psychology and mental health. In offering my opinion on this thread, I’d describe it as a mix of Bolshevik’s, Waysider’s and a synthesis of other stuff that I believe has merit – some of which I’ll get to in a minute. In retrospect, I’m fairly comfortable with an arm-chair diagnosis of wierwille being – among OTHER complexes - a malignant narcissist. A quick internet search for a definition says psychological complexes are distorted sensory and thought patterns that lead to unnatural behavior and are typically deep-rooted in a person’s psyche. A psychological complex, as the name suggests is a distorted thought and sensory pattern that has been deeply ingrained into a person’s psyche. It decides a vast chunk of that person’s perception and decision-making in terms of how they relate to others, emotional experiences, and sense of self. A complex can happen because of many reasons. Reflecting on my entire TWI experience – and reflecting on everything that was said and done by wierwille and LCM even down to their interpersonal relationships - that I’ve observed how they were with others as well as with me – it seems pretty obvious there was big time malignant narcissism a psychological syndrome comprising an extreme mix of narcissism, antisocial behavior, aggression, and sadism. Grandiose, and always ready to raise hostility levels, the malignant narcissist undermines families and organizations in which they are involved, and dehumanizes the people with whom they associate” From Wikipedia - malignant narcissism Part of the debilitating effect of allowing harmful and controlling cult-leaders to have a huge influence over my life was how it sabotaged my intuition AND cognitive skills. While it is tempting to chalk it all up to demonic influence…possession…or whatever – I feel that is like the typical TWI-speculative-over spiritualizing-pat-answer for most problems…reflecting on the crapstorm and backlash in the aftermath of public reading of passing of the patriarch – I think that exemplifies the blind leading the blind - where a person who knows nothing is getting advice and help from another person who knows almost nothing – which is how any big crisis in TWI is handled anyway. Dr H.A. Virkler is a licensed psychologist who has been training Christian counselors since 1974, has started 3 Christian counseling centers and has written a number of books and articles that integrate psychology and theology. In addition to teaching, he serves as an informal consultant to several Christian counseling centers, agencies and Christian schools in the West Palm Beach area. In an article he wrote in Baker Encyclopedia of Psychology and Counseling , on Demonic Influence, Sin and Psychopathology pages 326 – 332, he tries to clarify and identify the levels of demonic influence - here's a bunch of excerpts: “Cosmology…Secular Westerners usually believe in a single-tiered (naturalistic) universe only. Christian Westerners typically believe in a two-tiered universe, with God and other supernatural forces inhabiting the upper story and human beings occupying the lower story. In contrast, most other cultures believe in a three-tiered universe; the middle story represents the sphere in which the interaction between humans and supernatural beings occurs. This is not primarily an external combat between supernatural and natural beings but an interaction that occurs intrapsychically.” End of excerpt ( T-Bone sidenote: Definition of intrapsychic : being or occurring within the psyche, mind, or personality. The definition of intrapsychic is something that exists in the mind. An example of intrapsychic is a sleeping dream. Existing or taking place within the mind or psyche. Intrapsychic conflict. Within the psyche or mind. Existing or occurring within the mind or psyche.) Virkler’s article goes on to mention Paul Hiebert (1932 – 2007) who was considered by many to be one of the world's leading missiological anthropologist. “Hiebert developed several theories that widely influenced the study and practice of Christian missions. His model of "critical contextualization" describes a process of understanding and evaluating cultural practices in light of biblical teaching. It is one of the most widely cited models in evangelical doctoral dissertations dealing with contextualization. The concept of the "excluded middle" argued that most Westerners see the universe as consisting of two tiers - the invisible things of the other world, and the visible things of this world. In this way, they exclude the part in between - namely, the invisible things of this world, and in particular the unseen personal beings, such as angels and demons. Hiebert suggested that non-Westerners are much more likely to accept this "excluded middle" “ –info from the Wikipedia link – click on his name above. Picking back up on Virkler’s article in Baker Encyclopedia of Psychology and Counseling: “Hierbert makes the point that this three-tiered cosmology is truer to biblical reality than is the two-tiered one. Christian growth, according to Scripture, occurs as a result of the Holy Spirit living within us. Likewise, Christians struggle “not against flesh and blood, but against the ruler, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms” (Eph. 6:12 NIV). The spiritual weapons and armor described in Ephesians 6: 13-18 refer to cognitive truths that Christians can use to refute the theological mistruths that Satan and his forces attempt to insert into our minds. Thus, according to God’s Word, much of our Christian experience and non-Christians’ experiences as well occur in the middle story. Diagnostic Implications. The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-IV; American Psychiatric Association, 1994) contains the most comprehensive description of mental illness available. Psychopathology (mental illness) is conceptualized in a one-tiered universe. Christian counselors usually believe in a two-tiered universe, but because most are trained from a secular perspective their diagnoses often remain functionally one-tiered. Yet, if the three-tiered cosmology is correct, this has significant implications for our conceptualization of psychopathology. Such a model would suggest that much of what we call abnormal behavior is not simply a result of developmental events occurring at the natural level. Instead, abnormality may be a result of the interaction between developmental events occurring at the natural level and Satan (using a combination of our sin natures, the attraction of the world’s system of thinking, and demonic agents) trying to draw people away from God. Thus a biblical model of illness, both physical and psychological/spiritual illness, suggests that it can come fro disease occurring in the natural realm, sin (the combined effects of our sin nature and the influence of the world’s value system), and demonic forces (often interacting with one or both of these sources). The Reality and Activity of Demons. In recent years some Christian theologians have attempted to demythologize the Bible’s teaching on demons and demonic involvement in human life or have otherwise characterized it as prescientific, superstitious thinking. However, the New Testament includes more than one hundred references to the existence of demons; it is clear that Jesus taught that demons are real and that they cause a variety of physical and mental disorders… End of excerpts I like this article because it got me thinking of a more comprehensive perspective that endeavors to integrate the biblical data with modern psychology in a less dogmatic way than fundamentalists. And by that I mean wierwille’s theology seems to line up with a two-tiered approach to counseling or even just analyzing interpersonal relationships in general; as a follower of TWI, I learned to scrutinize relationships and situations in an overly simplistic breakdown of what is going on – that often it was primarily an external combat between me – a human being against some supernatural force – whether I considered the person I was arguing with as possessed or under some kind of demonic influence. Virkler’s article presents more options or possible causes – the impasse in argumentative situations might have been over issues in “the middle story” - in other words – intrapsychic - being or occurring within the psyche, mind, or personality of either me or the other person or both of us. Maybe my interpretation of a passage is way off base, or their interpretation is – or both of us are way off – I recently shared on Grease Spot about being a WOW in DC in 1976 and witnessing to a Moonie - I called my little story Clash of the Cultists - and was responding to Bolshevik’s comment that if the communication between two people uses a lot of cult-speak language, does the mind have the option to even process, interpret, or express other modes of thought? My WOW incident upped the ante for nixing clear communication – when you have BOTH parties trying to communicate in TWO DIFFERENT CULT-SPEAK LANGUAGES … options for either person to process, interpret, or express other modes of thought are probably severely limited…you can read my post > here ....also please bear in mind my previous disclaimer about this topic – I’m merely playing at being an amateur detective long after the fact of when I was involved with TWI…so we can talk all day about discerning of spirits in TWI – but I will usually have a conservative approach and may even dicker over what level of demonic influence was present – I will list the four levels of demonic influence from Virkler’s article in a bit – but just wanted to end my overall view of dealing with the adversary in TWI – quite often the adversary was actually the top dog cult-leader…either wierwille or LCM...only I didn't realize that back then. …I tend to think part of wierwille’s and LCM’s modus operandi was a red herring tactic – their over-spiritualizations, speculations, blame-shifting, conspiracy theories, and unhealthy fascination with demonology were phony clues and pieces of disinformation whether - it was intentional or not – wound up being misleading or distracting…it would throw anyone off the scent if they were trying to properly assess a situation…the bull$hit of wierwille and LCM would confuse or deceive us by making us believe something that is not true…it’s quite possible – they both had a delusional disorder – that they were not aware of nor acknowledged that they were actually leading people astray – and so they would point their finger at everyone else (whether human or supernatural) as if they were the cause of the issue. Anyway – picking back up on Virkler’s article: “Levels of Demonic Influence. Scripture suggests four levels of demonic involvement in human temptation. These levels represent a continuum ranging from no demonic involvement to significant involvement. No Involvement. Scripture makes it clear that temptations may come from our sinful nature without demonic intervention (Jer. 17:9; Mark 7:21-23; James 1:14,15). Demonic Temptation…temptation that is demonic in its origin. (Matt. 4:1-11…Acts 5:3…I Chron. 21:1…Eph. 6:10-18). Demonic Oppression. A more intense level of demonic involvement in human life is called by various authors demonic influence, demonic oppression, demonic subjection, or demonic obsession. Demons are believed to exert considerable influence over a person’s life short of actual possession. Oppression may be a mild form of subjection that goes goes unnoticed for years until a particular event uncovers it. It may also refer to a state in which the person is continually surrounded and harassed by the powers of darkness… ...It could be argued that for the most part symptoms that result from demonic temptation or demonic oppression are not qualitatively different from symptoms that result from our sin natures and the temptation of the world system. It appears that the role of demons in these situations is to intensify the temptations or symptoms coming from those sources rather than to produce unique symptoms. It is primarily in the case of demon possession that some unique symptoms are produced…” Virkler also refers to Thomas B. WHITE (who is the founder and president of Frontline Ministries, an international ministry that develops citywide prayer movements and offers teaching on spiritual formation, prayer, and spiritual warfare. He holds degrees from San Diego State University and Asbury Theological Seminary) on page 150 of his book The Believer's Guide to Spiritual Warfare White suggests four means by which he believes people become demonically oppressed. These are 1. habitual moral compromise, such as involvement in the occult, nurturing bitterness or hatred 2. persistent sexual sin, or fleshly indulgence, 3. family involvement in the occult. 4. victimization by others (incest, rape, violence, exposure to satanic rituals); or ministry activity that draws attention away from Satan. And lastly Virkler mentions: Demonic Possession. In several instances where demon possession is described in Scripture, no specific symptoms are mentioned. When specific symptoms are mentioned they include possessed individuals manifesting supernormal strength; going about naked; being unable to speak, hear, or see; experiencing self-destructive convulsions with symptoms such as rigidity, foaming at the mouth, and teeth grinding; and making statements that suggest that one has supernatural knowledge. Sometimes the symptoms caused by the demon are continuously present. In other instances, the manifestation of the demon’s presence is episodic. While some persons have questioned whether demon possession continues, many missionaries who work in countries where demonic (idol) worship is prevalent testify that demon possession continues to exist there with symptoms quite similar to the biblical descriptions…Christians debate whether believers can be possessed. A growing number of conservative writers believe that the biblical data do not clearly answer the issue and that therefore we should look to human experience to help us decide it. Many accounts from experienced missionaries around the world and from ministers in the United States who specialize in spiritual warfare ministries assert that possession can occur in believers… …Some Christian writers have objected to translating ‘daimonizomai’ as demon possessed, preferring instead to use the word ‘demonized’ to refer to those whose symptoms fit into this category. ‘Demonizomai’ means to have a demon, to be possessed by a demon, or to be exercised by or under the control of a demon. Therefore, the translators of both the New American Standard Bible and the New International Version have generally translated the word as demon possessed. Three objections have been raised to the use of this phrase. First, it connotes to some people the idea of ownership, and Christians, even when they are being demonically harassed, belong to Christ, not to Satan. Second, there is an important difference in the Holy Spirit’s residence within a believer and demonic residence. The Holy Spirit always comes as an invited guest., while Satan and his demons often come uninvited to try to harass or control a person. Third, since the Holy Spirit lives within the believer, it seems conceptually impossible to believe that a demon or demons could live there also. The first two arguments are valid points. With regard to the third, when Scripture talks about the Holy Spirit or a demonic spirit within a person this is probably a metaphor suggesting influence or control over that person, since human spatial considerations apply to neith God nor demons. Thus there is not an inherent contradiction in recognizing that Satan and his demons may at times try to replace the loving influence the Holy Spirit has on a believer’s personality with their own control or that there may be a struggle between the Holy Spirit and a demon… …What would a model of mental illness that included the possibility of demonization look like? The following schema proposes eight tentative categories. These eight categories are not assumed to be a full statement of all causes, and they are not assumed to operate independently of each other. Abnormal behavior can be caused by psychopathology from two or more of these categories acting synergistically. End of excerpts Virkler's "schema" lists eight theoretical...tentative...or unproven categories as follows: 1. some mental illnesses such as schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, obsessive-compulsive disorder, and attention deficit/hyperactivity disorder appear to have a significant genetic component that predisposes people to have one or more episodes or chronic occurrence of these particular illnesses. 2. People sometimes develop mistaken beliefs as a result of their human finiteness. People may come to mistaken interpretations or mistaken conclusions because they do not see all the data or they do not correctly analyze it. 3. Psychology may also be a result of lack of knowledge about how to deal with situations – whether social, academic, work or marital situations. Lack of skills or knowledge may also keep a person from moving to a new developmental stage – even though this would be chronologically appropriate. 4. Psychopathology may also be the result of lack of awareness of one’s thoughts, feelings, or goals. In this situation, rather than thinking the situation through so that conscious decisions about one’s behavior can be made, internal processes, feelings or goals may be acted out - in the psychology of defense mechanisms and self-control, acting out is the performance of an action considered bad or anti-social. In general usage, the action performed is destructive to self or to others. 5. Another factor that can produce unhealthy or undesirable behavior is our sin nature; that is, our self-centeredness, our desire to be god of our own lives. Our sin nature causes us to take healthy needs or drives (normal needs for food, shelter, and enjoyment) and distort them through overemphasis or misdirection. 6. The traumas that some people experience – emotional abuse, physical abuse, sexual abuse, or some other assault or crisis – can cause psychopathology. Besides the naturally occurring results of these traumas, those who have had many years experience in spiritual warfare consistently say that these kinds of developmental situations regularly become a means of entry for demonic temptation or oppression. 7. Satan is the author of the world’s system of thinking and encourages people to develop mistaken beliefs about what goals they need to reach to achieve happiness (e.g., possessions, fame, power, or pleasure). Satan also encourages people to develop mistaken beliefs about how to reach those goals (e.g., through lying, deception, stealing, or infidelity). 8. In some situations, abnormal behavior may be the result of demon possession. It is not implausible to believe Satan and demons adapt their strategies to the prevailing culture. Virkler emphasizes that some abnormal behavior may be the result of the synergistic effect of two or more of the above list of eight factors. Virkler gives the example Satan or demons may attack the Christian suffering from major depression and may use the vulnerability caused by the major depression to convince the believer that salvation has been lost or the unpardonable sin was committed or that salvation was never really obtained. Virkler goes on to say treatment with antidepressants alone may be sufficient to remove the vulnerability that enabled Satan to successfully attack, but treatment with antidepressants followed by biblical cognitive therapy to reaffirm the believer’s position in Christ may be an even more thorough treatment for such a person. …I have expressed elsewhere on Grease Spot Café my personal experience of clinical depression – and this point of Virkler’s really resonated with me. It is in my genetic history – going back as far as I could search to my great grandfather on my dad’s side. I dealt with depression even before TWI involvement – but once I got involved in TWI – the TWI-mindset and lifestyle that I adopted exacerbated my condition…some things just don’t mix well with a harmful and controlling cult …anyway…I thank God for a loving, patient and well-informed woman like my wife Tonto. I left TWI in 1986 – but it wasn’t until around 1999 that she convinced me to see a board certified psychiatrist…he not only got me to try a few anti-depressants until I found one that worked the best for me but he also got me into cognitive therapy – stuff that I could do myself – found a great book that I’ve shared ideas from on Grease Spot it’s Feeling Good: The New Mood Therapy by David Burns ...The Rx helps me to maintain an even keel – made it a lot easier t get out of a mental rut – and the cognitive therapy helps me to steer clear of that mental rut…Don’t know how else to explain it – but without the Rx I find I get into a vicious cycle of self-analysis and can’t seem to figure out what the problem with me is…With the Rx, I’m just not that fixated on self-analysis – and instead devote my attention to solving problems I can fix. Like being less of an a$$hole to my wife and kids and improving my health – I usually walk about 2 miles a day – cut out deserts at night – eat more fiber, drink more water and eat less red meat…I lost over 28 pounds since July of 2021…yeah for me! I am not disputing folks who say they are adept at discerning of spirits – or their claims of detecting devil spirits in cult-leaders. Like I said at the beginning – I have ZERO experience in discerning of spirits or any other of the “manifestations” as taught by wierwille – and ZERO expertise in psychological matters. Since I left TWI, I’ve tried to develop better cognitive skills as well as gain more confidence in my intuition. In general, concerning my thought-life and studies after TWI – I feel like I’ve been taking “remedial classes” – since I was stuck in a pseudo-Christian harmful and controlling cult and did not achieve the level of attainment necessary for me to be able to function along with my contemporaries – i.e., “normal Christians” - whatever that is – since I feel like the TWI-mindset – or groupthink - was like a ball-and-chain that held me back. It was a crippling mental encumbrance that put restrictions on cognitive skills, creativity, feelings, intuition, and personal pursuits. I’m quite confident my experiences, observations, feelings, studies – both biblical and secular…and analysis…and conclusions are fairly accurate in unraveling the “mystery”, nature and tactics of CERTAIN harmful and controlling cult-leaders. I don’t care how anyone else wants to slice it and dice it and discern devil spirits coming out the wazoo of these bozos…or however one wants to parse out the various levels of demonic influence …I’ll let God be the one to reveal the gory details – if he so chooses at a future time…sometimes I think if I could have seen what really went on “behind the scenes” not just what went on in the motorcoach but what really went on in the hearts of these cult-leaders – I’d probably freak out on how close I came to dancing with the devil.

Hi Twinky, How old is your Huawei P10 Lite? The details of your complaint leads me to think it’s your battery - they only last a few years - maybe 3 to 5. I have an iPhone 7 Plus – which I got the year they came out (2016)…At the time of purchase I also bought a third-party battery case – so I had a really long time of battery power…after a few years I noticed once the battery case went low – my iPhone did not last long on its own internal battery – it’d get down to 60% and then just die. So I did some consumer research and decided to have my iPhone internal battery replaced and NOT use an external third-party battery case. I went to Best Buy in latter part of 2019 – and for around $55 they replaced the internal battery. Works like a champ…You’ve probably got similar services where you live – shop around – and make sure the services are reputable, authorized to work on your brand of phone…I’d do that before thinking about upgrading your phone – unless a newer model or different brand sounds tempting. I’m just presenting a viable and cheaper option if you’re happy with your current phone. I see you have an android-type phone but these other tips for extending your battery charge may help too: If you’re not using Wi-Fi and Bluetooth (like if you’re “on holiday” at the beach ) – then go into your settings and turn them off – otherwise they’re always using battery power to look for a connection. Another one which you already probably know is to close any apps you’re not using.

Hi Mike, would you please elaborate on that what are “the Woes” that standout the most? what was/were the thing/things that people didn’t get right the first time?

whether it's him or not - if you ask me, that all just seems like crocodile tears…speaking of insincerity I think some folks have a wishy-washy and unbiblical approach to sin in the Church… one very suspicious poster named Robinette Byden came on Grease Spot back in October of 2020 – though unspecified in their posts the main thrust – going on the details and context given - was about forgiving Martindale…In one of their posts > here “In all due respect to your response, WordWolf, I don't believe I was active with The Way during this "MOMENTUS incident", maybe if I had, I wouldn't give John Lynn the time of day right now. I can't help but think of somebody like Pastor Jim Bakker, who back in the 80's had a multi-million dollar world-wide ministry called the PTL Club and then served several years in Prison on Fraud charges. Today, Bakker remarried, has a church service in Branson MO, and managed to get a weekday, half hour show on Daystar TV. Not too shabby, but it's clearly a mere shell of the Ministry Bakker had 35-40 years ago.her On one hand, I respect the hundreds, if not thousands, of people who literally got exploited by Bakker via contributing tons of money to his ministry while he and then wife, Tammy Faye Bakker were living like grossly spoiled billionaires, to either go worship elsewhere or just plain not do anything at all for God anymore. I definitely get it. On the flip-side, I'm eternally grateful that God Almighty gives Second Chances to people. If Jim Bakker is still ripping people off and messing them over spiritually, I'm sure God will make him pay for that on Judgement Day. Ditto with King David having an affair with a married woman and still continuing as Israel's spiritual leader. Ditto with Paul the Apostle representing God after murdering numerous Christians. Just for the record, I'm not a "member" to either John's TLTF, or Bakker's Branson MO church, nor have I given even a penny to either of their ministries. If either or both are con artists ripping people off or destroying folks spiritually, I'm sure God Almighty will deal with them come Judgement Day. Call me naive or gullible if you will, but I just respect these two guys or anybody else who strives to make an effort to do God's Will. Will there be some back-sliding here and there? Probably, but give them some credit for persistence and determination. I hope, WordWolf, this clears some stuff up a little bit. Peace out.” = = = = = I quoted Robinette Byden’s post and in my response > here and I said: “Hi Robinette Byden, Your posts have brought up some interesting points and after giving them some thought I wanted to address a few things. God does forgive – but he does not always remove the consequences of sin. You mentioned David remained king even after his sins (adultery and the murder of Uriah). That’s true but even though he was forgiven there were severe lingering consequences. Since he had done evil to another man’s family, King David would receive evil in his own family – the rape of Tamar (daughter of David by Macaah) by David’s son Amnon and then another son of David Absalom avenges Tamar by murdering Amnon ( II Samuel 13 ). Sometime later Absalom was rebellious – and quietly built up support, declared himself king and mounted a revolt at Hebron, forcing David to flee to Jerusalem ( II Samuel 15 ); later on Absalom set up a tent on the roof of the palace ( perhaps throwing in David's face where his adulterous musing began) and had sexual relations with David’s concubines to assert his right to his father’s throne ( II Samuel 16: 21, 22 ) – fulfilling the judgement pronounced by Nathan ( II Samuel 12: 11, 12 )…after his affair with Bathsheba and his murder of Uriah, David wrote of his confession and plea for forgiveness in Psalm 51 ...the whole mess was not something that was swept under the carpet. Moving on to your reference of Paul chosen to be an apostle of Jesus Christ even after he so violently persecuted the church – you left out the most critical life-changing event – his conversion – being witnessed to by Jesus Christ himself! Paul’s former life as a persecutor would indeed look odd on an application to be a pastor of a church. Who would hire someone like that? Indeed many Christians initially had a hard time believing this persecutor had changed for the better and was now truly one of them ( Acts 9 )…Paul even said of himself he was unworthy to be called an apostle – probably recalling his previous life of overseeing the imprisonment and death of Christians – but he could not deny the effect of God’s grace and forgiveness ( I Corinthians 15 verses 8-10 ) “The conversion of Paul, in spite of his attempts to completely eradicate Christianity, is seen as evidence of the power of Divine Grace, with "no fall so deep that grace cannot descend to it" and "no height so lofty that grace cannot lift the sinner to it." It also demonstrates "God's power to use everything, even the hostile persecutor, to achieve the divine purpose." From Wikipedia on the conversion of Paul . Again Paul's former lifestyle as a persecutor of the Church was not something that was swept under the carpet.” And ended my post by asking Robinette Byden: “Hey, I was wondering - and I hope it's not rude to ask - What did you do in TWI? Corps? WOW? Leadership roles? Why did you leave TWI? What do you do now – fellowship wise?” ~ ~~ ~ But I never got a response…like I said earlier - I tend to be suspicious of crocodile tears…especially when they seem to want to guilt me into doing the supposedly Christian thing of forgiving…to me it’s a wishy-washy and unbiblical approach to sin in the Church wrapped up in a multi-colored coat of hypocrisy, piousness, pretentiousness, and self-righteousness. Comparing apples to oranges - it’s always interesting to compare “the world’s” reaction to big time sins and the way some fallen preachers wish to be treated. I think of the public’s reaction to the bad behavior of people like Larry Nassar, Harvey Weinstein, Bill Cosby, and Jeffrey Epstein…You can knock all the organized religions that you want to – but I have a lot of respect for any of them when they not only air their dirty laundry, but also hold people accountable, and deal justly, legally, and fairly with all involved in order to hold true to the principles of their faith. "Must be something wrong with our scale of values" ...yikes ! another blast from the past

Oh yeah – you nailed it Bolshevik! An alarming aspect of TWI-follower’s/big PFAL-fans’ fascination with demonology is the amount of control it affords cult-leaders. They elevate consequences for disobedience to the most frightening level. TWI-leadership used the fear of devil spirits, fear of getting possessed and fear of the power and influence exercised by those supposedly “born of the seed of the serpent” the way some parents use the boogeyman to frighten their kids into parental-approved behavior. To NOT follow TWI-guidelines or even worse to recklessly oppose TWI-leadership is to risk punishment from Satan’s minions. That’s something wierwille/Craig did to keep us trapped inside their theological box. We didn’t need to fear what the adversary could steal from us or do to us since wierwille/Craig already stole... or sabotaged our greatest asset – the ability to THINK and CHOOSE.

Good find Stayed Too Long ! Thanks. So I listened to a few of them and noticed on this one https://archive.org/details/the-remnant-of-grace-81-2-23-2020 A brief description was given: “The Remnant of Grace, For Modern Day Believers Who Are Freed From Spirit Realm Incarceration. Everything in LIFE is Ephesians 6:12; But: 1 John 4:4.” ~ ~ ~~ The wording is so clunky and reminded me of Craig’s typical sensationalistic demonology that appeals to fans of wierwille’s spiritualism …then my brain went to a passage with something along those lines: 1 Peter 3:19–20 "By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; (20) Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water." (KJV) ~ ~ ~ ~ Then being in the spirit of spritely and devious - I thought of the Bizarro World Enquirer headlines: Ousted Cult-Leader Helps Spirits in Prison Escape

jeepers, Rocky, you do pro bono work too! You’re alright! Thanks! Better that you’re pro-Bono than pro-PFAL anyway…there’s always a need for more talented singer-songwriters, activists, and philanthropists…we don’t need another plagiarist / con artist.

I have always been easily entertained by the sounds of words. The first time I remember hearing the word “interpolation” was in the PFAL class. My brain often does this weird “check against existing files” when I hear a new word. I thought it was related to the word “interloper” since it sounded like a word I was familiar with…anyway…It happened again this morning when I read Bolshevik’s post…so in the spirit of wash-and-wear-logic that still needs to be sent to the cleaners, I submit the following as I ask you: coincidence – or the incidence of coins in a slot machine? Either way it’s all a crapshoot. Interpolation: the insertion of something of a different nature into something else; the introduction or insertion of something spurious or foreign. Interloper: a person who becomes involved in a place or situation where they are not wanted or are considered not to belong; one that intrudes in a place or sphere of activity. In the verbal atrocity of my universe interloper and interpolation seem to go together like a card shark and marked cards…maybe I should write a book: "Interlopers and Their Interpolations: Con Artists, Cult-leaders, the Contrivances of Corruption and All the $hit that does NOT belong in My Life!" maybe I could get Simon & Shyster to publish it...they'll probably tell me to shorten the title - I think Rocky works there.

pip pip Cheerios

is that a euphemism for diarrhea?

I always got a kick out of reading “bowels of mercies” in King James – check here Colossians 3:12 – Bible Hub < click here to see alternate versions - Young's Literal Translation, Douay-Rheims Bible, and King James are the only versions listed on Bible Hub website that retain that quaint expression…I find stuff like that fascinating. Your Deuteronomy 23:13 of properly cleaning up after yourself in the great outdoors – brought back my LEAD experience…we had to do that – and were also instructed to put used T.P. in a baggy – which we would later throw into the campfire.

We may have some common ground there…my wife follows football more than I do…I do enjoy the super bowl commercials…I like Multi-Grain Cheerios the best…but the past few years I’ve had some bouts of diverticulitis and so I usually choose cereals with higher fiber content like Grape-Nuts, Grain Berry, Raisin Bran…in an old search I found one cereal that really hypes the fiber content by its name Poop Like A Champion Healthy Choice Ultra High Fiber Cereal …haven’t seen it in local stores…so I think I’m gonna order some from Amazon soon

Don’t be ridiculous, Twinky…I’ve been reviewing…and I mean reviewing…again and again the Leviathan posts and having a few Irish Coffees…mmmm how many?...lost count…maybe I should review the Math posts, huh…Bolshevik has the right idea though – so I’m sticking with my Irish Coffee regimen and adding some heavy Cream too

I am convinced that 99% of all the baker’s woes reported here are due to the bakers NOT GETTING IT RIGHT their very first time in the kitchen. All the pro-Marbled Cake bakers swear by Dr. Marie Antoinette’s Flour For Abundant Fullness class (or FFAF for 'shortening' )…for just a “petite” required donation of 87.97 Euros anyone can take the class. Supposedly that’s how she made all her dough…By session twelve all new students experience one hell of a sugar-crash and are drained of energy and say dumb things like “Let them eat Marbled Cake.” Any new students who fail to do so are shot and then asked to leave the country. I vaguely remember something in the news about a live class on cakes that fell (apart) in the middle ( of the class)…uhm yes...now I remember...while she was doing a live FFAF '77, she lost her composure and acted very emotional and irrational – the newspapers ran a headline Dr. Marie Antoinette Loses Her Head …a lot of bad press…a lot of very bad press…But there are lots and lots and lots and lots of happy FFAF grads bringing back FFAF in lots of plagiaristic and old switcheroo ways. One FFAF grad, named Little Debbie -now an ordained baker from Doc Marie’s Wavy Gravy Program – and yes - the baker-ship training program was named after THE Wavy Gravy who was part of the Woodstock Movement and believed in free flour for everyone – he is noted for the miraculous feeding of the 400,000 with breakfast cakes while still in bed…just to be clear, Wavy was the one still in bed – he had his Lesser Wavy Gravies (wavy-gravies-in-training )do the feeding of the 400,000 …culinary historians believe that was probably the golden opportunity for Dr. Marie Antoinette to sneak into his motorcoach and hijack-flap-jack-knick-knack-paddy-whack Wavy Gravy’s recipe book that was covered in orange peels, because he always left it on the night stand. And Wavy Gravy was always dead to the world after having a lot of Rum or Drambuie Cakes the night before…and it was daytime …and there was flour on the gas stove… Are you still awake….. zzzzZZZZ ZZZzzzz …well okay …you can catch up later… Rev. Little Debbie started an offshoot (which began as a bake-off) when she GOT IT RIGHT - in its fullness, AND with enough depth of calories to withstand the onslaught of dieticians and lawyers for the estate of FFAF. many loyal FFAF-fans marked and avoided Rev Deb – labeling her “the adversary” who would tear FFAF-fans away from their “mother in The Flour” or just "Mother Flour"…most Easy-Bake Oven scholars believe that’s what inspired Rev. Little Debbie to call her FFAF knockoff cakes “Devil Squares”... The oddest thing...Devil Squares looked nothing like - nor tasted nothing like Doc Marie's Marbled Cakes - but for some reason old diehard FFAF-fans called Rev Lil' Deb's cakes The Challenging Counterfeit.

Twinky, thanks for that encouraging post! Great stimulus for reflection! Especially the 2nd picture of 6 people carefully working their way across the steppingstones…I love the idea of helping others on our journey…sometimes I’m the ditherer…sometimes I take huge strides when I’m confident…sometimes I’m like a child and need a helping hand from someone more experienced. So I was playing around with this idea that each person in the picture represents different phases of my journey…or maybe different cycles of my intellectual and emotional journey – repeated - maybe in more or less the same order – the different stages of a growth process… ….so, in your group shot of people walking across the steppingstones…from left to right: 1. the ditherer – I’m indecisive…when I’m unsettled about something I have to remember to cut myself some slack…do some deep reflection…in TWI I was taught indecisiveness, sitting on the fence, inaction was bad…In TWI I was encouraged…nay I was PRODDED to jump on anything TWI said I should be doing – and their prompts…motivational techniques…manipulations tended to squelch my cognitive skills and intuition. What I thought or felt was unimportant…but NOW – being a ditherer isn’t so bad as long as I’m actually using my cognitive skills and intuition to determine my next move...and maybe my next move is just hitting "the dither button" for a little while longer...I mean what's the rush? If your house is on fire - okay quit dithering and get the hell out! Otherwise – if it’s not time-sensitive - then give it the appropriate think-and-feel-time – sleep on it. go over your personal preferences, long-range goals, etc. …here’s an example of what NOT to do: When I got off the WOW field, I debated going back to school and finish getting a degree in fine arts. But I let myself get caught up in TWI’s priorities – starting a Twig in this college town. In my mental debate - I had this vague notion I was being selfish for thinking about what I wanted to do. 2. childlike faith – I made it a little farther by thinking some things through. I mulled everything over as “the ditherer” …now I’m relishing my success thus far - taking stock of where I am now…processing…processing… 3. confident – taking bigger steps – I can do this! Confidence comes from accomplishments. Looking back – I see I’ve traversed 6 rocks and going on the 7th…I’m getting somewhere – hooray! 4. Old hand – alright – so now I’ve got a lot of experience using these steppingstones...I sort of know what I'm doing. 5. Humility – think young! you're never too old to learn...Drop the pride from lots of experiences and let others help you if you need help – I have an expanded idea of the Psalm that says God fills my life with good things – I believe that includes good people too … Psalm 103:5 NLT He fills my life with good things. My youth is renewed like the eagle’s! 6. Help others – it’s the 2nd greatest priority for Christians - Mark 12:31 NLT “The second is equally important: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ No other commandment is greater than these.”

Who were you rooting for in the super bowl?

Hi Mike! I’m laying this out in the hope that you’ll find it easier to quote one section at a time…maybe it will work out better if we converse in bite-sized pieces…so here goes… Mike said: From 2002-2008 I was an advocate here that we return to PFAL to see how much we missed the first time(s), and to see how much we forgot or drifted from. I am convinced that 99% of all the woes reported here are due to us all NOT GETTING IT RIGHT the first times. T-Bone’s reply to that: Please be more specific. You can break it down point by point. What is the stuff that you think we missed, forgot, or drifted from the first time? Keep it simple. Let’s discuss one item at a time. Also can you elaborate on EXACTLY what are the “99% of all the woes reported here are due to us all NOT GETTING IT RIGHT the first times.” ~ ~ ~ Mike also said: Now, on Feb 16, 2022 I am adding: Yeah, and let me clarify that GETTING IT RIGHT means in it's fullness, AND with enough depth to withstand the onslaughts of the adversary to tear us away from the good we DID get partially right for a time. T-Bone’s reply to that: In my opinion, it’s okay to be a PFAL-fan if it’s kept in perspective…but that’s just my opinion. if we look at the whole picture, seeing things in their proper relation/proportion to everything else in our lives – mentally stepping back from the thing or things we are concerned about so we can see other things too… But in your case, there’s very little credibility that you’ve kept things in perspective – because your posts sound more like a hyped-up sales promotion for a product that most former customers here at Grease Spot KNOW is seriously defective and should have been recalled ages ago. When you make these claims about the wonderful benefits of PFAL – it hardly ever rings true – maybe because…and I’m just guessing here…your claims OFTEN sound like a nostalgic time capsule and/or a romanticized version of what you WISHED happened or HOPE can still happen. By the way that boogeyman-fear-of-the-devil stuff doesn’t work on me anymore. That’s something wierwille did to keep us trapped inside his theological box. We didn’t need to fear what the adversary could steal from us since wierwille already stole our greatest asset – the ability to THINK and CHOOSE. What I share on Grease Spot Café is about my TOTAL experience which is STILL UNFOLDING…so it’s about PFAL and BEYOND. When I took PFAL back in 1974 – at the time, I thought it was the greatest thing in the world – cuz it SUPPOSEDLY (or I was led to believe that) got into how the Bible was written and how to interpret it. I still appreciate the class cuz it demystified the Bible for me – being raised Roman Catholic, I looked at a lot of the Bible as incomprehensible, ancient, and weird. For as much as you hear me criticize wierwille and PFAL on Grease Spot that probably seems odd – but wierwille pointed me in a particular direction of developing a faith I grew up in...He got me started on the road to deep Bible study, checking out systematic theology and hermeneutics and even sparking an interest in philosophy of religion… BUT … when I left in ’86 – over disillusionments and disappointments that had been brewing for a long time – I had one of those differentiating but simple moments of clarity where I thought to myself “I can do better myself at personal Bible study and living the Christian lifestyle than what TWI tried show me.” Mike, to put it to you bluntly – the way you refer to PFAL and often double down on some of its most dubious points leads me to think you view PFAL as THE gold standard - a model of excellence…a paragon, the supreme example of something against which any other theological stuff is judged or measured. We need to be careful of who we admire and try to emulate – cuz of Luke 6:40 NLT “Students are not greater than their teacher. But the student who is fully trained will become like the teacher.” Speaking of teachers, as Christians we need to remember I John 2:27 NIV “As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit—just as it has taught you, remain in him.” FYI – click on the hyperlink of the above scripture references – you’ll see alternate translations of the verse ! To be perfectly frank with you, I am not a fan of PFAL or wierwille because of the way he tried to micromanage the development of my faith…basically during my time of TWI involvement wierwille usurped the teaching-role of The Holy Spirit in my life. If you want to deny that wierwille did that – fine – but realize your disclaimer means CA CA to ME. I have expressed a number of times on Grease Spot besides on this particular thread – how PFAL was considered the gold standard in the way corps…and wierwille and his flunkies micromanaged us to death – PFAL was held up as THE model of Biblical excellence…a paragon, the supreme example to hold our attempts at doing research, preaching, and teaching against… as a means of being judged…measured…evaluated in comparison to PFAL "PERFECTION". Here's some other definitions of micromanage: “It means when one is employing or supervising another person, the manager provides such continuing, detailed direction as to what to do and how to do it, that it results in both a loss of efficiency and a lessening of job satisfaction for the person being managed.” “A good manager/leader will tell their employees what to do but not necessarily how to do it, unless it requires detailed specific knowledge. When a manager tries to closely control and manage every aspect of an employee’s work, they are micromanaging them.” From: Quora - what does it mean to micromanage Mike – I don’t know if you realize how phony your claims sound…it’s almost like you audited the PFAL class but never actually tried to apply it in real life situations to see if it actually worked. Whereas I committed to pursuing a "degree" in PFAL. What I figured out during my “education” in the 12-year extended curriculum of all Way-classes / way corps training and in life – is that most of it was nonsense…so impractical for me…BUT - to look on the dark side - it did allow TWI to suck a lot of money, effort, time, and creativity out of me. FYI – on referencing wierwille’s works…I try to practice what I preach…I often refer to theological works that are non-TWI in origin – but I don’t admire them all out of proportion. Nobody is perfect. We all make mistakes, biases, lapses in logic, etc. But I do tend to trust a theological work when I find the author appears to be honest and logical and I can see their points jive with what I know is clearly and simply stated in the Bible. I have mentioned a number of reputable theological works on this thread – feel free to review my other posts at your convenience. If you have any more questions like the one about plenary verbal inspiration or you’d care to challenge any works I used to support my criticism of PFAL – please quote the post – or form a simple question to challenge it – and let’s help make your thread something we can all learn from. ~ ~ ~ ~ Mike said: The ministry and people's lives all resembled marble cake: light spots and dark spots and all swirling about in time and geography. You can see the same thing in Acts. T-Bone’s reply to that: Chapter and verse please. What are you talking about? Your statement needs LOTS of clarification – besides the appropriate references from the book of Acts to support your points – whatever they are. ~ ~ ~ Mike said: Some of us started getting into the realm of doing all the things that Jesus Christ did and greater, and that threatened the adversary's grip on the world big-time. T-Bone’s reply to that: Can you be more specific, please? Who are the “Some of us” and what were the “doing all the things that Jesus Christ did and greater” ? ~ ~ ~ ~ Mike said: We did absorb SOME of what we were taught, and at times and wit some of us it worked VERY well. T-Bone’s response to that: Can you be more specific – who are the “WE did absorb SOME of what we were taught” ? and can you please be specific on “and wit(h) some of us it worked VERY well”. ~ ~ ~ Mike said: That's why proPFAL people are tenacious about the good, when they successfully resist focusing on sin and failures. That's why they are coming back. We did absorb SOME of what was taught, but lots of it was too much for us to absorb or use back then, AND some of it got lost in the shuffle of distractions. But there are lots of happy grads coming back to PFAL now, and in lots of ways. T-Bone’s reply to that: you make another leap in logic by saying “That's why proPFAL people are tenacious about the good, when they successfully resist focusing on sin and failures.” Who are these “proPFAL people”? You make it sound like it’s more than JUST YOU…Is that what you want us to assume? And I hate to burst your bubble on feelings of success, but I think your scale of values is way off. You stubbornly resist when someone challenges PFAL for its superficiality, insanity, flippancy, inaccuracies, interpolations, and twisting Scripture - - I mean… usually Grease Spotters have zero-chance of having a LOGICAL conversation with you over any errors in PFAL…You also stubbornly resist when Grease Spotters point out the sins and failures of wierwille – and for that stuff we’ve got evidence - documented – and witnessed by the person or people present – we’ve got evidence coming out the wazoo! You seem to have the false assumption that denying or ignoring wierwille’s bad behavior will let wierwille’s erroneous doctrines shine. Mike, it’s two different categories of faults. wierwille’s bad behavior was bad for other Christians – because it hurt them as sheep in the flock and it also elevated wierwille as an example to leadership-in-training, i.e., shepherds-in-training (the way corps program) on how to abuse and exploit sheep like a predatory wolf. wierwille’s erroneous doctrines did not deserve to be loftily exalted to be equal to the authority of Scripture. That empowered him to be a powerful, harmful and controlling cult-leader! for all practical purposes - in the minds of many - wierwille took the place of the "absent Christ" - and that's the "genius" of brainwashing - - cult-followers did not realize that wierwille took the place of Christ's presence...authority...lordship... wierwille lorded it over our faith. If you consider PFAL to be light – when it actually darkens a simple and clear understanding of the Scriptures – how great is that darkness! In the hierarchy of the power structure of TWI – from the top down – wierwille and the rest of TWI-leadership – it’s the blind leading the blind! see Matthew 6 - hey Bible fans here's another nifty study tool - click on the Matthew 6 link and you can change the translation with the pulldown box at the top right...enjoy! That’s all for now

Thanks - I like how you tipped the scales back to the other off-topic…that’s always a plus

Yes ... it fits like his hand in your pocket (eeeeewww double-creepy) …he wanted our undivided attention for his “rightly-divided” message – that believing equals receiving when it comes to the formula for deceiving – it was the exponential growth of his coffer at the square root of a diseased tree – a number which produces an unspecified quantity when error is multiplied by itself. As they say in the gaming industry – it’s not a zero-sum game cuz it’s one person's loss in a transaction is another person's gain…somehow it all adds up – he was a shyster extraordinaire!

In addition to other negatives of the class, I thought I heard the “Teacher” say he had a non-denominational group but I think it was a Faustian slip – he was talking about the lowest common denominator – i.e. his signature intuition which simplifies adding, subtracting, and comparing fractions of different belief systems like fundamentalism, spiritualism, and Gnosticism. The Green Book asked the question “Why Division?” – duh - that’s easy – the “Teacher” always preferred to divide and conquer – by repetitive subtraction he broke up families, friends, and subordinates…that’s how cult-leaders maintain control over their subordinates - by encouraging dissent between them, thereby preventing them from uniting in opposite numbers to him. Eventually I realized what the phrase “numbers racket” meant. It was the constant drone of a loud and confusing noise the “Teacher” made shouting “send more money.” A numbers racket is an illegal use of plagiarized material where players buy chances to win the more abundant life. PFAL is one of the longest running schemes that has redefined value mathematics as the result of an incalculable risk to “bet the farm” on the numero uno cult-leader who lived on a farm in Ohio….and for that we were constantly berated…there must be fifty ways to crucify your followers.

I heard the three times former gold medalist goat make a comment at the end: “I thought he had good form – his head hit the water first – that’s something I always did when I competed.”

Thanks Twinky & Bolshevik – great video! I emailed that link to myself cuz I want to watch it a few more times…I like when someone walks me through their thinking process and I get to see the variety in experiences, observations, factors in evaluating one’s involvement...and there’s something else – hearing them IDENTIFY issues. Made me think of the therapeutic value of Grease Spot Café – I think the potential for healing and freedom is in reengaging our cognitive skills when reflecting on the past and the pain, the good and the bad – as we recognize or ascertain what makes someone or something different…understanding the crux of the matter…what is the stuff that makes something/someone either good or bad or a combination of the two. That’s a toughie when you’re coming out of a pseudo-Christian harmful and controlling cult – to heal and move on we must learn to differentiate. Differentiate some things: Can you identify a harmful and controlling cult’s toxic infusions and insidious twists to the theory and practice of the Christian faith? When I took PFAL back in 1974 – at the time, I thought it was the greatest thing in the world – cuz it got into how the Bible was written and how to interpret it. I still appreciate the class cuz it demystified the Bible for me – being raised Roman Catholic, I looked at a lot of the Bible as incomprehensible, ancient and weird. For as much as you hear me criticize wierwille and PFAL on Grease Spot that probably seems odd – but wierwille pointed me in a particular direction of developing a faith I grew up in...He got me started on the road to deep Bible study, checking out systematic theology and hermeneutics and even sparking an interest in philosophy of religion… BUT … when I left in ’86 – over disillusionments and disappointments that had been brewing for a long time – I had one of those “differentiating moments” where I thought to myself “I can do better myself at personal Bible study and living the Christian lifestyle than what TWI tried show me.” Discern the wolves from deceived sheep: In a pseudo-Christian harmful and controlling cult like The Way International – there is a complicated blend of good people, bad people, and good people gone bad…some good people don’t realize they’re helping the bad people…in a cult you have the predator, the victim, and the facilitator. I was a facilitator – I made it easier for TWI to exploit others not only by my financial support but also by trying to be a good sales-rep for the PFAL class…I honestly thought it would help people…I suppose you could have predator/facilitator folks – who either turned bad or found an organization where their own moral depravity fit right in. Not talking about judging intentions here – I’m talking about judging what people DO. Actions speak louder than words. Another thing about that YouTube video Do All Ex-Cult Members Think the same – I like the fluidity some folks exemplified – being flexible to move around on the spectrum…I think that’s realistic - because as time goes by - we change – we grow – we heal – we gain a new perspective…In my book, it’s okay if you’re a PFAL-fan, if it’s kept in perspective. Not that my opinion matters – but – I think if you make something like PFAL the gold standard – you’ve just set some limits on your critical and creative skills. Instead of being challenged to do better thinking…clearer thinking – you never outgrow the debilitating “standards” set by an incompetent and deceitful teacher.

I liked him on Gunsmoke, Sharky’s , Best Little whore house and of course Deliverance. speaking of movies when we were WOWs I was WOW in DC 1975-76...going to the movies was a real treat ! I still remember the ones our WOW family went to see...I'll list them according to what I liked - #1 being the best ( "be best" ) - - or I mean in order of what I liked the most: 1. All the President's Men 2. THX-1138 (an older movie playing at some nostalgic theater) 3. The Pink Panther Strikes Again 4. Mother, Jugs & Speed

John 21: 10 & 11: 10 Jesus said to them, “Bring some of the fish you have just caught.” 11 So Simon Peter climbed back into the boat and dragged the net ashore. It was full of large fish, 153, but even with so many the net was not torn. ...many, many years later... You know times have changed when a celebrity just doing a simple “backshot” with champagne breaks the net.

A line from Sharky’s Machine may work here... Sharky: You know Frisco, when we used to flush the toilet upstairs, we always wondered where it came to...