T-Bone

I started the You Tube of The Great Bible Hoax of 1881 – but seeing how it is over 2.5 hours long – I’ll check more of it out later. Thanks for posting the PDF and the You Tube. feedback on The Two Parallel Streams of Bibles: what I’ve read of the PDF you’ve provided – Duperron’s book seems to have a somewhat conspiratorial flavor - suggestive of a secret plan made by a group of people to change what the Bible says…I do think it’s interesting the way he compares the different translations and versions – but to me (and maybe I’m mistaken) it seems like Duperron has more of a theological agenda than a concern for ancient manuscripts textual research. Also, it appears Duperron is a fundamentalist – but that’s not the only way to interpret the Bible. On the 2nd Wave of returning to PFAL I talked about the four major theories that various scholars have posited on how the Bible was inspired by God (you'll find my source listed in that post)...anyway,,,I lean toward a mix of Neo-orthodoxy theory: conceived in the early 20th century, partly as a reaction to liberalism’s disregard for divine authority. Karl Barth and Emil Brunner are two of its leading proponents. Neo-orthodoxy holds that God is utterly transcendent – meaning God is absolutely different from us and far beyond our comprehension. Neo-orthodoxy differs from evangelicalism in that neo-orthodoxy asserts the Bible is a WITNESS to the Word of God or CONTAINS the Word of God – whereas evangelicalism holds that the Bible IS the Word of God. According to neo-orthodoxy the writers recorded their experiences with God the best they could – but being human, their writings sometimes contained paradoxes or errors. and Limited inspiration theory: holds that God inspired the thoughts of the biblical writers, but not necessarily the words they chose. God guided the thoughts of the writers, but he gave them freedom to express those thoughts in their own style. Having that freedom, some historical errors as well as ancient and often erroneous concepts of physical sciences, life sciences, and Earth sciences may be found. Whereas I think Duperron like wierwille is either or perhaps a mix of Dictation theory: suggests God simply dictated the Bible to human scribes – giving them the EXACT words God WANTED – writing ONLY what God dictated to them. This view generally doesn’t appear in print but has sometimes been suggested by some segments of Christianity – some conservative and fundamentalist groups. and/or Plenary verbal inspiration theory: like the other views plenary verbal inspiration asserts the Holy Spirit interacted with the writers to produce the Bible. “Plenary” means “full” or “complete”. “Plenary” inspiration asserts that God’s inspiration extends to ALL of Scripture – WHICH INCLUDES when the writers recorded any historical, physical science and life science details. “Verbal” refers to the WORDS of Scripture. “Verbal inspiration” means God’s inspiration extends to THE VERY WORDS the writers chose – but it is not the same as # 2 the dictation theory. The writers could have chosen other words, and God often allowed them the freedom to express their own personalities as they wrote – but the Holy Spirit still guided the process so that the finished product faithfully conveyed God’s message. Fundamentalism is totally hostile to the notion of biblical criticism in any form and is committed to a literal interpretation of Scripture – if you’ll remember wierwille had a disdain for textual criticism…Theologically, fundamentalism is narrowly committed to a set of doctrines…dogma! There is an element of irrationalism often associated with fundamentalism that is lacking in evangelicalism which has produced significant writings in areas of the philosophy of religion and apologetics. For some reason I’m reminded of a certain Grease Spotter who thinks PFAL is the gold standard of biblical research – and on a couple of threads - Is PLAF theopneustos? and 2nd wave of PFAL I referenced the book The New Testament Documents: Are They Reliable? by FF Bruce which states that even with the variant readings about which any doubt remains among textual critics of the ancient manuscripts of the New Testament – there is no impact to historic facts or to the BASIC TENETS of the Christian faith and practice… Duperron’s challenges to textual criticism seems to base his opinions on some “special knowledge”…that smacks of Gnosticism to me. Reflecting on my way corps training I distinctly remember times on corps nights where either wierwille, Walter C or Craig would talk about doing research of ancient manuscripts looking for a certain text to support what wierwille said about something. That doesn’t sound like unbiased research to me. Sounds more like preparation…proof-texting in search of a text. I skimmed over the PDF and checked out some of the other sections – that gets into the Nephilim and some other dubious and speculative stuff. I have a some books on the Nephilim – one by a former way corps guy – interesting stuff – not everyone’s cup of tea – but I’m a big X-Files fan so I like reading up on things like that. One thing that I found rather unpalatable near the end of Duperron’s book pages 156 and 157: “Go to Google and type in: AV Publications Hazardous Materials by G. A. Riplinger “You will learn such things as the connection between new version editor and child molester C.J. Vaughan (whose all ‘boys’ school parades their lewd perversion in one, amongst the many never before published photos in this book) and tools such as Strong’s Concordance, Vine’s Expository Dictionary, the Unitarian J.H. Thayer’s Greek-English Lexicon, Moulton’s Lexicon and Vincent and Wuest’s Word Studies. Heresy trials deposed editors of the popular Hebrew-English Lexicon by Brown, Driver, and Briggs and the New Testament Greek-English 157 Lexicon by Frederick Danker. All Greek-English New Testament lexicons plagiarize the first Greek-English lexicon written by Scott and Liddell, who harbored the pedophile author of Alice in Wonderland, who took improper photographs of Liddell’s child and remains a suspect in the Jack the Ripper murder case. The book demonstrates that Greek texts from UBS to TBS fail to reach the perfection of the Holy Bible, where God’s words shall not pass away.” Yeah – I’m not sure what to make of that…this kind of stuff makes me think of why politics is banned on Grease Spot Café – when in politics - or religion a person gets into conspiracies and disparaging innuendoes to cut down their opponents - I think that's a cheap shot...instead of debating policies...articulated issues…laws…philosophy…citing easily accessible documents…fact-checking …so this portion of his book hit me the wrong way…I can argue all day long on why wierwille’s body of work can’t be trusted – from just on academic, doctrinal, logical, technical grounds and would not have to get into his sordid sexual predatory behavior which has been well documented and witnessed by individual victims as well as in group meetings, casual and formal teaching settings…nuff said…don’t know if you can sort through my ramblings – so I’ll make it easy - you can just chalk me up as giving mostly negative feedback on The Two Parallel Streams of Bibles ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ feedback on the video The Great Bible Hoax: If you watch the video on You Tube you’ll find a brief summary as follows: “In 1881, two scholars published a series of corrections to the new Testament of the Bible that sent immediate shockwaves through the academic world. Brooke Wescott and Fenton Hort produced The New Testament in the Original Greek, one of the earliest examples of modern textual criticism. Their goal was to remove changes, errors, and additions to the text in order to determine the original words. It was at once controversial but at the same time - began a new epoch in the history of textual criticism.” An interesting point at about the 1-hour mark by Dr. Phil Stringer who was pro-critical text (and author of History of the English Bible) he was asked by someone how do you know the oldest text is the best? Stringer then pursued the question much deeper…Stringer said he was helped along the way by a book The Identity of the New Testament Text by Wilbur Pickering and Stringer says if you found a corrupt text of Romans that was produced the day after God inspired the book of Romans (we know these corrupt texts were being made almost immediately by statements of early church leaders ) - it would be the oldest text anyone ever found – and it would be corrupt. Another passage the video gets into is I Timothy 3:16 I Timothy 3:16 - And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. KJV I just wanted to pass this one on for all you Bible study-bugs out there - If you click on the above hyperlink of I Timothy 3:16 you’ll see some 26 different translations and versions of that verse – and down at the bottom left – click on Additional Translations and it will categorize the translations by modern, classic, and literal. Additional translations of I Timothy 3:16 The video gets into Gnosticism too – and suggests there was some Gnostic influences in passages that separates Jesus from Christ…“Jesus” referred to his humanity – material, corrupt…”Christ” referred to the spiritual, pure, perfect… (T-Bone note: Gnostics were big fans of secret knowledge and believed there was a clear separation of the spiritual world, which was pure, perfect, good and the material world, which was corrupt, imperfect and evil – to the Gnostics “spirit is spirit - flesh is flesh and never the twain shall meet” …I’ve shared on the Logos in John 1:1 a few times on GSC from various scholars and would just like to say wierwille did not know what he was talking about) . fascinating stuff in this video – I’ll have to watch it a few more times – thanks for posting the link OldSkool! I see a contrast in philosophy between Duperron’s book and the ideas presented in the video…I think textual criticism is a good thing – and something necessary for the proper interpretation of Scripture. “The Academic Study of the Bible and its Textual Content: In the academic discipline of biblical criticism the word "criticism" is not to be taken in the negative sense of attempting to denigrate the Bible. Technically, biblical criticism simply refers to the scholarly approach of studying, evaluating and critically assessing the Bible as literature in order to better understand its origins and the original intentions of its authors. It is the task of biblical criticism to collect and study various writings in which a text has been preserved, determine the changes that have occurred in the wording and arrangement of the text, assess the significance of such changes, and restore, if possible, the original wording, teachings or form of the text.” from: The Nazarene Way of Essenic Studies Never catch the red dot – Our cat LOVES to chase the laser pointer – never seems to get tired of it…we had a lab/springer spaniel who got into it too – she would usually take over the game by her loping and darting about to catch the red dot would freak out the cat and he’d go hide. true that! true that!

Thanks, Lifted Up and Penworks! These posts got me to reflect again on how much of my way corps training was like being in a family with overbearing parents… wierwille calling us “his kids” probably did a real psychological number on my mind – generating some kind of weird endearment - inspiring love or affection for wierwille, in a childlike way. Yuk! I think of the isolation of the way corps training program – being physically isolated from friends and our REAL family who might otherwise provide a reality check – besides being cut off from outside information, newspapers, books, TV (when I was in there was no internet…no forums like waydale, transchat or Grease Spot ) – all this ensured that the ONLY reality I got to experience was the one presented by the way corps training program… The isolation process made me dependent and obedient… If leadership didn’t sense adequate zeal and loyalty on my part – I could be at risk of verbal attacks, public face-melting, face a strenuous private interrogation – or even the threat of expulsion! Unless you’ve been through the way corps program – you have no idea of what utter despair, hopelessness and fear of expulsion can do to your psyche…something was slowly whittled away…I became more pliable…even willing to compromise on certain convictions and give up any freedoms in order to stay in good graces with leadership and enjoy the comfort of the elite social system of the way corps - my make-believe family...and "father knows best" Yikes!!!!! yeah – overbearing parents is a nice way to describe TWI-leadership in the way corps training program… in general, the leadership or management style of TWI is authoritarian - enforcing strict obedience to authority at the expense of personal freedom…somehow mulling this stuff over while Googling – and in a sublime fit of synchronicity I stumbled upon a website that got into authoritarian parenting…I thought perfect! Check out these excerpts below – I think they might apply to wierwille and company - the similarities are mind-blowing: Authoritarian parenting is a parenting style characterized by high demands and low responsiveness. It was one of the parenting styles described by developmental psychologist Diana Baumrind. Parents with an authoritarian style have very high expectations of their children, yet provide very little in the way of feedback and nurturing. Mistakes tend to be punished harshly. When feedback is given, it is often negative. Yelling and corporal punishment are also common with the authoritarian style. People with this parenting style often use punishment rather than discipline. They are commonly not willing or able to explain the reasoning behind their rules. Baumrind believed that one of the major roles that parents play in a child's life is to socialize them to the values and expectations of their culture. How parents accomplish this, however, can vary dramatically based upon the amount of control they attempt to exert over their children. The authoritarian approach represents the most controlling style. Rather than valuing self-control and teaching children to manage their own behaviors, the authoritarian parent focuses on adherence to authority. Instead of rewarding positive behavior, the authoritarian parent only provides feedback in the form of punishments for misbehavior. Demanding, But Not Responsive Authoritarian parents have lots of rules and may even micromanage nearly all aspects of their children's lives and behaviors, at home and in public. Additionally, they also have many unwritten rules that kids are expected to follow—even though children receive little to no explicit instruction about these "rules." Instead, children are simply expected to know that these rules exist and follow them. Little Warmth or Nurturing Parents with this style often seem cold, aloof, and harsh. They are more likely to nag or yell at their children than offer encouragement and praise. They value discipline over fun and expect that children should be seen and not heard. Little Explanation for Punishments Parents with this style usually have no problem resorting to corporal punishment, which often involves spanking. Rather than relying on positive reinforcement, they react swiftly and harshly when the rules are broken. Few Choices for Children Authoritarian parents don't give children choices or options. Parents set the rules and have a "my way or the highway" approach to discipline. There is little room for negotiation, and they rarely allow their children to make their own choices. Impatient With Misbehavior Authoritarian parents expect their children to simply know better than to engage in undesirable behaviors. They lack the patience for explaining why their children should avoid certain behaviors and expend little energy talking about feelings. Mistrusting Authoritarian parents don't trust their children to make good choices. Parents with this style don't give their children much freedom to demonstrate that they can display good behavior on their own. Rather than letting kids make decisions on their own and face natural consequences for those choices, authoritarian parents hover over their kids in order to ensure that they don't make mistakes. Unwilling to Negotiate Authoritarian parents don't believe in gray areas. Situations are viewed as black and white and there is little to no room for compromise. Kids don't get a say or a vote when it comes to setting rules or making decisions. Shaming Authoritarian parents can be highly critical and may use shame as a tactic to force children into following the rules, using phrases such as "Why do you always do that?," "How many times do I have to tell you the same thing?," or "Why can't you do anything right?" Rather than looking for ways to build their children's self-esteem, these parents often believe that shaming will motivate children to do better. from: What is Authoritarian Parenting? End of excerpts ~ ~ ~ ~ The other synchronificant hit (I think I just made up a new word ) in my Googling was a Psychology Today article on why authoritarians love religion…which made me think of the “perfect storm” – the way corps training program and pseudo-Christian harmful and controlling cult-leaders…a great pairing where each perfectly complements the other! Yikes!...anyway check out these excerpts: Why Authoritarians Love Religion The authoritarian personality finds in religion a match made in Heaven Authoritarians naturally love authoritarian institutions like religion and the military. They love the idea of someone giving orders and others obliged to take orders, they love the idea of strict punishments like courts-martial and hell fires, they love the hierarchal nature of such institutions and forced gestures like saluting and kneeling, and they love the permission such institutions give you to hate others, all those millions of enemies and infidels. Of course, authoritarians may also avoid the military like the plague and not believe in gods in the least—remember that cynicism and hypocrisy are also hallmark qualities of authoritarians. But they love the authoritarian flavor of such institutions and intuitively understand that they ought to align with them, at least publicly. That’s why authoritarian non-believers who seek public office will profess a belief in gods in which they don’t believe and a love of religion which they never demonstrate. For both authoritarian leaders and authoritarian followers, religion is a wonderful convenience. It allows them to lord it over other people, since they alone know the truth. It allows them to punish people guilt-free, since that punishment is on a god’s orders. It allows them to deny reason by dubbing the irrational “faith.” It gives them extra ways to bully people, especially women, who are regularly regarded as second class. It is just about everything an authoritarian could wish for. End of excerpts From: Psychology Today – Why Authoritarians love religion ~ ~ ~ ~ I feel there is something so promising and hopeful about books like Undertow and all the stuff that Grease Spotters have shared over the years…for those still in TWI - it’s sort of like hearing from siblings who have already left the home of overbearing parents – and they hear of the great big worlds of discovery that awaits them…but first they must decide to leave the comfortable nest of overbearing parents.

Another interesting You Tube – thanks, Rocky ! Fallon is so warm and engaging in his talk…and the funny thing about listening to talks like this – I find myself susceptible to self-diagnosis But not kidding here and not sure if it’s a good thing or a bad thing…so I usually lean toward the Luke 4:23 principle - ‘Physician, heal yourself!’ meaning before attempting to correct others, make sure that I’m not guilty of the same faults…and the thing is many times I find I am guilty of the same faults – maybe not to the extreme degree of certain people…but I think it functions as a constant reminder of the human condition… I read in The Sociopath Next Door Harvard psychologist Martha Stout said a small percentage of ordinary people--one in twenty-five--has an often-undetected mental disorder… And perhaps off topic...But relates to “the teacher” of the original PFAL – wonder camp is another interesting thing Stout said in her book: “We have an extremely hard time seeing that a person has no conscience, but a person who has no conscience can instantly recognize someone who is decent and trusting.” That got me thinking – recognizing a cult-leader’s behavior as unconscionable is a tough pill to swallow – it’s awfully unpleasant…difficult but unavoidable…and must be accepted if one is to make sense of their own cult-experience…and if what Stout says is true - that a person who has no conscience can instantly recognize someone who is decent and trusting…I wonder if that is like one of the “manifestations” that an expert con artist is good at “operating” ? I dunno…just thinking out loud…I believe a good hunter/predator tends to be efficient in identifying and targeting their prey – and won’t waste a lot of time and effort going after what can easily elude them.

Thanks for the videos, Rocky – stuff like that is always fascinating. I think we’re getting off topic – so I’ll make it brief… Sharot mentioned two things that I think are essential to a change of mind: motives and common ground…thought about this and how it relates to Grease Spot discussions. Motive - I think this is a key variable – motive is the reason I’m involved in a particular discussion. Is it to expand my horizon? Am I trying to find some answers? Do I just want to argue? Am I trying to expose a logical fallacy? A motive is what causes a person to act. If my motive is to gain a new perspective or to find some answers, I’m probably more likely to change my mind on something. Common ground – something you or I propose is more likely to be accepted by another if we can tie it to a shared value, common interest…I believe this goes hand in hand with motive. In a discussion – if everyone’s motive is in sync – for example – in a discussion everyone is into exploring all aspects of TWI-gatekeepers. At its best the Socratic method - as a form of cooperative argumentative dialogue between individuals that is the common ground - based on asking and answering questions to stimulate critical thinking and to draw out ideas and underlying presuppositions.

Rocky - that’s the second time you got on me about that… …and I think you’re right ! Thank you I do tend to be caustic Maybe there was some synchronicity going on in between your first and second “reproof” post. … After I read your first post I happened to review some old threads - one was on civility in posting by Waysider…and yes I will review Carnegie’s book - How to Win Friends / Influence - good idea! I will have to take issue with you on your other point though - “People don't make major life decisions based on any kind of logic. They ONLY do so based on emotion”. - I don’t think that is uniformly true of all people. Reflecting on one of the most heartrending major life decisions I had to make - to leave TWI in 1986…internally it was a perfect storm of logic…observations…a growing sense of disillusionment with an organization that failed to produce or live up to its claims and promises…and the tension of all that against my emotional attachment to the people and something I heavily invested in… it was not an easy decision and if I would have let some emotions (like fear of losing friends, fear of abandoning “God’s ministry “ and even positive emotions like the love and admiration I had for certain leaders ) take priority over the preponderance of evidence, logic, the re-evaluating of certain TWI doctrine that I had already started to do since that fateful night in Rome City chapel where I heard the passing of the patriarch - it was indeed a long and drawn out decision making process - just like my writing style …it was a tough internal battle - but for me anyway - I would have to say the logical arguments, correlations with what the Scriptures said about power-grabs, factions, allegiance to the Lord Jesus rather than to earthly leaders trying to lord it over me, and even certain feelings - intuition - something I could not pin down but my gut was telling me there was something wrong…something really really wrong with this organization… my point is all that went counter to some of my emotions urging me to stay and help the organization get back on its feet. To end my post on a positive - friendly note to you Rocky - and to make amends for hurting our cause - I agree with you totally…being caustic, sarcastic and combative is no way to win friends and influence people. Emotions do play a part in the decision making process - no sense in generating more unpleasant emotions then what’s already brewing inside a troubled soul.

I beg to differ. What is the purpose of a tagline? From: FEEDOUGH – The Entrepreneurs’ Guide The basic aims of a slogan or tagline are summarized below: 1. ) Creates positive imagery about your product 2.) Promotes a campaign for not only a single product but a range of products 3.) Compels the audience to ‘stop-and-think’ 4.) Makes your brand stand out from the clutter 5.) Increases demand for your product = = = = = = Now I will elaborate on why I think it was an effective or cognitive-skills-honoring notice I said “I think” – so I could be wrong …but anyway – here’s the above summary in an expanded literal translation according to T-Bone’s usage (note this involves pros and cons – and maybe secrets the Pros use to pull off their cons ): 1.) Creates negative imagery about The Way International’s products and service – might even be enough to make some TWI-followers wake up and see the Kool-Aid brewing. 2.) Promotes a campaign for not only a single product but a range of products to keep people involved for a lifetime – this might get some TWI-followers to realize the captivating and entangling aspects of a harmful and controlling cult. 3.) Compels the audience to ‘stop-and-think’ – which is always a good thing to do. Unfortunately most people who got involved with TWI did not do that; now realistically TWI would never use such a tagline – but in my goofy world of cult-humor imagine if they did – then it would be along the lines of truth in advertising. It’s been my experience as well as that of many others – after a length of time and experiences – and it’s different for everyone – there comes a tipping point – you’ve disregarded enough red flags, cognitive dissonances…shrugged off enough bad experiences that you stop and think…that’s taking the first step…I realize it's a bitter pill to swallow - but in order to escape - one has to first realize they've been a "sucker" - that they've been conned... for others, who came to a Twig only a few times or maybe just took PFAL – there was enough clues, evidence of a scam …inconsistencies / incoherent logic and doctrine…or just a bad feeling (intuition) to make them think and reevaluate TWI and so they stop going to Twig. 4.) Makes your brand stand out from the clutter of other harmful and controlling cults. To bastardize another tagline - "an uniformed consumer is our best customer" 5.) Increases demand for your product – for those who can’t get enough of a bad thing…like maybe they have a death wish for their authentic-self. sorry for my feeble attempt at humor…a joke isn’t funny if it needs to be explained…which brings me to my own tagline “no joke is too sucky for me to tell.” unfortunately I’m here all week , Rocky

Rejoice, thanks for the link and WordWolf, thanks for the “link expansion” …and jumping back to another point - revisiting something Skyrider said earlier: “Incremental --- perhaps, one could dismiss wierwille's ministry as a rumbling, bumbling, back-woods organization that was overwhelmed with rapid growth. But when incremental patterns form consistently to advance power and growth......one sees that this "power highway" ONLY GOES IN ONE DIRECTION..... centralizing authoritarian control. Individual independence recedes and dependency on twi for direction and guidance in life ascends. Note: "Christ in you" teachings were rarely taught or emphasized (by 1978).....twi had become the *mediator* between you and God to pacify one's guilt and condemnation of sin. Just stay faithful to going to twig and you, indeed, are in "good standing with God." Sleight-of-hand.....in plain sight.” ~ ~ ~ “incremental” - denoting a small positive or negative change in a variable quantity or function; relating to an increase or addition, especially one of a series on a fixed scale…this is the modus operandi of a harmful and controlling cult-leader…whether it was unintentional or by design…wierwille did NOT come into my life like a wrecking ball immediately destroying my cognitive skills…feelings…intuition…my personhood, my time and resources, finances, family and social connections…it was a slow and sometimes barely perceptible…INCREMENTAL change from WITHIN MYSELF… I would liken it more like wierwille was a crooked developer – who came into town and got me to invest in his promises of accelerated self-development, self-improvement, self-actualization…I should have read the fine print…he wasn’t concerned about MYSELF – but HIMSELF. …I think a “great” harmful and controlling cult-leader must first become the ultimate saboteur. It is by his deliberate actions…teachings…influence that he takes aim at weakening the cognitive skills, intuition, and the social ties of family and friends of new recruits. And again I say – whether it was unintentional or by design is NOT the issue. Trying to figure this catastrophe out by speculating on wierwille’s motives is an exercise in futility. I am NOT God. So, my default judgement on this issue is to give wierwille the benefit of a doubt – I honestly think he really believed he truly served God and God's people. But as the old proverb goes “the road to hell is paved with good intentions” - wrong or evil actions are often undertaken with good intentions...and the variable of that - good intentions when acted upon may have unintended consequences. What are intentions? They are merely guiding principles for our thoughts, attitudes, choices, and actions. Usually our intentions make us feel good about the beliefs we have. But intentions become irrelevant if they are not aligned with actions…so I try to keep my focus on actions, things that were said and done, observations, experiences, events, situations. And in doing so I have looked at how well the publicly stated intentions of wierwille/ the TWI-gatekeepers aligned with Christian ideology. I believe Jesus Christ set forth the two highest priorities for his followers in Matthew 22: 37 – 40 - to love God and love your neighbor as yourself. ..from that passage it seems obvious to me that HOW we TREAT people matters to God...so it makes sense that we should judge ourselves on how we actually deal with people rather than judging ourselves on why we think we serve God's people... ...I think it’s important to frequently evaluate our actions to see if they are in tune with our ideology…for me, that’s pretty much one of the big takeaways of this thread – the acid test for wierwille and all the TWI-gatekeepers – is to see how well do their actions/words/ideology line up with the basic tenets of Christianity. The concept of being incremental is important to understand how one gets sucked into a harmful and controlling cult…and perhaps is mirrored in how one slowly extricates from a cult once they’ve reached a tipping point of experiences, red flags and realizations. How I was sucked in: I responded favorably to malignant ideas run up the flagpole – in PFAL, Twig fellowships, big rally events, etc., then many other soft-sell tactics come into play which subtly persuaded me to buy more and more into TWI’s ideology…And realistically there’s no one cut-and-dried method for ensnaring folks in a harmful and controlling cult. There are so many variables to consider like one’s personality, social needs…usually new recruits are young and naïve so critical thinking skills are not really developed… thus the road to indoctrination is NOT shock therapy but rather a GRADUAL immersion… it’s like a PROLONGED SEDUCTIVE INTOXICATNG “romance”…a cult luring neophytes to take bigger and bigger sips of the Kool-Aid…using manipulative tactics like love-bombing, the subtle influence of peer pressure and groupthink......claiming to provide solid answers about life, having a purpose, God, marriage, finances, whatever… wierwille was the original gatekeeper – the attendant at the gate of pseudo-Christianity, he controlled who went through it…this intellectual/emotional gate functioned like a one-way turnstile – like I remember from using the subway system in New York – it only allows pedestrian access in one direction…and brings to mind another fatal scenario - the widely known tagline of the Roach Motel - "Roaches check in, but they don't check out!"… let’s morph it to a tagline for The Way International – “suckers check in, but they don’t check out”.

The above quote is expanded and thus annotated below to indicate my response James French: B. Regarding intuition, the workings of the holy spirit (the gift of God); the holy spirit functions in believers in many ways not only in manifestations, but also just by revelation manifestations of word of knowledge, wisdom and discerning of spirits. T-Bone: That sounds redundant – “the holy spirit functions in believers in MANY WAYS NOT ONLY in manifestations, BUT ALSO JUST BY REVELATION MANIFESTATIONS.” You’re saying the same thing – and negating other possibilities - which could be taken to mean the holy spirit functions ONLY IN manifestations. ~ ~ ~ ~ James French: God communicates to individuals in different ways, but even in a single individual in many ways, including myself. Revelation itself can come in so many ways and combinations from everything from still small voice, to pictures, videos, feelings, intuition-like, pains in ministering to someone to communicate where the trouble is etc. These various revelations can mimic the five senses or be more intellectual-like. God can communicate how he determines through the holy spirit. T-Bone: But logically God is not limited by “the holy spirit” (this may be another area where you and I differ – but that would require a lot more dialog to identify the differences) – since there are instances in the Bible of God communicating to someone who does not have “the holy spirit” – like Nebuchadnezzar’s dream in the book of Daniel. ~ ~ ~ ~ James French: We can see in scriptures many varied ways God communicates. God has principles, but we cannot put God in a box, he is too big for that. What works for one person may not work in another. T-Bone: Can you be more specific? saying “God has principles” implies comprehensive and fundamental laws, rules, protocols, or doctrine that one must SUBMIT to; Yet you turn around and say we can’t put God in a box. Seems contradictory to me. To box someone in means you reduce the number of options or alternatives the boxed in person can choose from. ~ ~ ~ ~ James French: C. All manifestations of holy spirit can be counterfeited. We also have the problems of not only listening etc. for God's communication, but also interpreting or confusing our body, soul and spirit and which is communicating, as spiritual feelings can and often do mimic physical stimuli; senses. Physical senses can also be misconstrued as "spiritual." Also the spiritual and physical stimuli may confirm and agree to a certain conclusion or conflict or be different. Ultimately, we should strive towards the closest relationship with God through the the spirit, the mind and cooperate in all manner of ways and do our best to constrain the bad aspects of the flesh. T-Bone: That’s exactly what wierwille taught and he may have regurgitated that from books like The Challenging Counterfeit by Raphael Gasson That was required reading for The Advanced Class…One of the many reasons I don’t give much credence to the manifestations AS TAUGHT BY wierwille is all that guess work and the assumption there has to be a learning curve of a believer’s proficiency in the “operation of the manifestations” improving over time…brings to mind the silly “exceller’s sessions” TWI would have believer’s do to practice TIP. That is hilarious! Where did they get those silly ideas you have to practice the manifestations? What I gather from the Old and New Testament, classes/teachings/”student-practice-sessions” on “operating the manifestations” or even impromptu lessons on how to perform signs, miracles and wonders are non-existent. There are no narrative developments to indicate a learning curve – and come to think of it – there are no manifestation misfires or failures in the Bible. I think wierwille made a bundle of money selling snake oil – classes and teachings that promise to lead you into manifesting the power of God…God doesn’t need sales reps. ~ ~ ~ ~ James French: Regarding Seed of The Serpent etc.; I will just say, I have extensive research and experience in that area and personal knowledge and experience involving my own family., as well as others. Genesis 3:15 is significant. I have extensive materials and evidence in this area as well as personal experience that I cannot state publicly for certain reasons. T-Bone: It seems like you’re being evasive – there’s another longtime patron of Grease Spot who often claims he has tons of research and has written innumerable theses on the greatness of PFAL and stuff on wierwille’s hidden, lost, and misunderstood teachings but in the 20 years he’s been coming to Grease Spot I haven’t seen any of it. And believe me – many of us have asked him over and over again…I hope you’re not trying to be evasive like that. This statement of yours is also disturbing - “personal knowledge and experience involving my own family., as well as others.” Writing people off because YOU think they’re born again of the seed of the serpent seems like a very hateful, unchristian and an awfully permanent thing to pronounce on people…seems like you’re playing God. who put you in charge of determining the eternal status of others? If wierwille was alive in the book of Acts BEFORE chapter 9, I can just picture him going on a rant about how that fiendish persecutor of the church – Saul, is born again of the wrong seed. And while we’re on the subject – could you explain how a person commits the unforgiveable sin? And can you provide Scripture to support your theory? Also – since you interpret Genesis 3:15 “seed” literally – could you explain exactly WHAT IS the seed of the serpent – AND what is the seed of the woman? You can get into all the science you like – I’m pretty confident I can follow along – I excelled in the sciences in college – I still enjoy reading books on biology, genetics, physics, black holes, superstring theory , the Holy Grail of speculation - the theory of everything...all kinds of stuff...the more technical the better…the devil is in the details. now if you get into magic and Harry Potter type stuff - I'll lose interest pretty quick. ~ ~ ~ ~ James French: D. Psychology; Scientific Methodology etc. You seem to rely extensively on scientific methodology, theory and knowledge. There is a place for such, but the spiritual truths certainly are absolutely more true then the soon to be world that will be melted with fervent heat, Even though many scientists are also believers, official science does not recognize the spiritual and scientific evidence is limited to that of the physical. T-Bone: I think standards in any field of study is a good thing – psychology, history, physics, biblical hermeneutics, etc. What’s the problem? I find scientific methodology – which is a lot of experimentation and observation is the best way to verify scientific truth…Faith deals with revelation – or some supernatural disclosure which could not be discovered by the unaided powers of human reason. Now reason is the natural ability of the human mind to discover truth. With science, truth is determined by verification – as in the scientific method... Flying a plane or launching a rocket into space are doable because scientists "found out the truth about gravity" – like there are ways to work around it. Science is practical – if it works, it’s true. Scientific truth gives us no criteria for metaphysical truth. Therefore, what is needed is another definition of truth for the metaphysical realm. I subscribe to the correspondence theory of truth. “In metaphysics and philosophy of language, the correspondence theory of truth states that the truth or falsity of a statement is determined only by how it relates to the world and whether it accurately describes (i.e., corresponds with) that world. Correspondence theories claim that true beliefs and true statements correspond to the actual state of affairs. This type of theory attempts to posit a relationship between thoughts or statements on one hand, and things or facts on the other.” from: Wikipedia So basically, truth consists in some form of connection…correlation…resemblance…agreement between a belief and a fact. For me, this gets into how I look at the Bible – and there’s a lot of ways to look at the Bible – even as a Christian. I believe the Bible is metaphysical truth (metaphysical = in a transcendent sense or to a reality beyond what is perceptible to the senses) – that it is a revelation from God – written by people inspired of God. Considering that people are not perfect, have worldviews shaped by their times and culture, I think the Bible is best understood as metaphysical truth and not as scientific truth. ~ ~ ~ ~ James French: Unfortunately because of the Dark side, much of the science has been used for wicked devices and purposes including mind control which I referred to in earlier post.The Dark side also has muddied the waters much with counterfeit and the demonic in all cultures and times since the beginning. The various mental diseases and symptoms comply with the characteristics and nature of specific demons, which I believe are cause of much of the mental illnesses in humans. T-Bone: I find conspiracy theories often have some bits of truth and facts but also have ample amounts of speculation and bias...and some seem to have a hidden agenda too…and just a heads up – when discussions start getting into politics, conspiracy theories and misinformation the threads usually get shut down…You might find an outlet for this stuff on Reddit.

Hi James French, Thanks for your very thoughtful reply. Now this is a better way to improve communication – seeking clarification on what MAY be another person’s assumption…I think we’re both guilty of that – and it’s usually easier and seems more efficient to dialog in cyberspace when we hold onto some assumptions – like a communication template or shorthand – rather than the old fashioned way of being face to face and we might interrupt each other mid-sentence “…wait – do you mean this?” or “no – I did not say that”…Now, onto the business of clarification. I never intended to treat you and your testimony as though it were not true – nor did I assume you are a liar, or a person who takes advantage of and victimizes others. I’m sorry if I gave you that impression. I NEVER DOUBTED that you actually had any of the experiences that you posted. And the only two items I called into question were in your first and second post – where you claimed you discerned wierwille was loaded with demons and the other was insinuating martindale is born of the wrong seed or the devil incarnate and launching into a conspiracy theory to blacklist a lot of other groups that do not subscribe to your beliefs – you said : “The seed talker may have been a seed planted by the enemy? After all, practically all denominations and non-denominations have been infiltrated by the Jesuits and other "seed boys and girls." I’ve briefly handle that erroneous doctrine of wrong seed in a previous post > here . I was not assuming YOU thought and acted like wierwille or martindale – I was challenging your proposition which is evidently based on what wierwille and martindale taught – unless you’re trying to say you figured out all by yourself there’s a conspiracy of wrong-seeders afoot – of course, I’m not aware of other “ministries” or any reputable Bible scholars who are big proponents of wrong-seeders – but I’ll give a listen if you want to walk me through your thought process and Scripture references to arrive at such an idea. But back to discerning wierwille was “loaded with demons”. I actually had two other lines of thinking while I was drafting my first post challenging you on that. And if it’s any consolation to you – what I am about to say actually gives credence to your experience as well as all the other incidents you’ve mentioned. The first idea is really a question. What if that was intuition when you sensed…felt…discerned wierwille was loaded with demons? What if God WAS telling you DIRECTLY that wierwille was under demonic influence but you second-guessed how God works? Maybe He didn’t mean to give you the idea he was loaded with demons – aka POSSESSED – maybe He was trying to tell you wierwille was under some heavy demonic influence…I have no doubt He might very well have been trying to do that…Sorry I got on you for not issuing an all-points-bulletin to believers – but I tend to liken your experience to the start of my own TWI-exit - my intuition – feeling there was some suspicious things wierwille said in “The Way: Living in Love” book. That inspired me to a take a long investigative journey using cognitive skills and intuition to figure out I was in a cult of personality. My other line of thought is also a question. As devoted followers of The Way International were we more prone to limit God by dutifully accepting PFAL protocols – i.e. “the teacher’s”…”the man of god’s” official procedure or system of rules governing affairs of God, the world, the church, the self? This might be some fun stuff to think about and discuss. I could relate to all your incidents if I soften up the boundaries of both our individual mindsets. I’ve been around people before that have given me the creeps. Even professionally in the security industry I have occasionally followed up on a gut feeling and thwarted a few attempted burglaries and exposed some crooked employees trying to socially engineer their way into gaining access to something. TWI gave intuition a bad rap.” You can’t go by feelings. That’s not how God works…No – the only way God can communicate something to you is if you have holy spirit and know how to operate all nine manifestations”. Not true! What if – contrary to what wierwille taught – God can do anything He wants to do and communicate anything He wants to and communicate it to whoever he wants to. Could He work with our intuition? I don’t see why not! I believe our intuition should be integral even with our more analytical study of the Scriptures...But it’s important to realize that it’s not perfect and it can be misinterpreted or even compromised by a seared conscience – certain passages like Proverbs 16:25 and Judges 21:25 will attest to that – we find that one’s feelings can be wrong, and not all inner leanings should be heeded. Because of our sin nature, we are often prone to error and poor judgment. If relying only upon our own powers of discernment, we can be led astray. I believe people are created in God’s image and as such we reflect some unique characteristics of our Creator – like a moral compass, the ability to judge what is right from wrong and act accordingly. At times we may acquire knowledge without obvious deliberation. Perhaps that is what Ephesians 1:17 is talking about - “that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give you the Spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of him, having the eyes of your hearts enlightened, that you may know what is the hope to which he has called you…” And people are not robots. We have freedom of will and some passages seem to suggest the more we align ourselves with the sentiment and moral demands of the Bible – the more reliable our instincts become – Psalm 37:23…and the Bible does seem to suggest that when we seek wisdom as our highest priority, our intuition can very well be a safeguard against tragic mistakes Proverbs 2: 3; Ecclesiastes 7:12 ; Psalm 37:23 ; Psalm 111:10 , and James 1:5 . And we should also remember the words of Jesus Christ in John 7:17 “Anyone who chooses to do the will of God will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own.” I believe there’s something to this verse that might have to do with how our intuition and God may work together – in that metaphysical truth is self-authenticating through the teaching ministry of the Holy Spirit – perhaps that is also implied in passages like John 16:13 and I John 2:27 . And do miracles, signs and wonders…divine intervention have to line up with wierwille’s “to receive anything from God checklist “? Of course not…and we certainly should not presume we can force God’s hand if we go through the motions suggested by wierwille…I was at a leadership conference in Camp Gunnison – Twig, Branch and Area coordinators were there – some were TWI-ordained clergy. They were conducting a healing service – and we all paired up with someone – and we then ministered to each other. Nothing spectacular to report so far – I could hear a lady praying for someone’s headache…another one was offering prayer for the other person’s financial situation…on and on a subdued drone of voices…then one guy’s voice got louder and louder – “… in the name of Jesus Christ stand up!” This got awkward…he’s praying over this guy in a wheel chair – and I could see the guy in the wheel chair leaning forward trying to push himself up onto his legs – but his upper legs are not doing anything…back and forth with the lean…failure of upper legs…the one ministering raising his voice louder and louder…I think it was one of the most dramatic buzzkill moments for many of us at the conference…the healing service petered out after that. No one formally addressed the failure – to make excuses or berate anyone’s unbelief. Nothing! Last thing – and then I’ll shut up for now…in reference to my faking SIT or that you assume I think you lied…I mentioned earlier about self-deception being rampant in TWI…here’s another fascinating idea: wierwille may have had the best of intentions and felt justified in everything he did…his motives could have been right. Perhaps he was so deluded it never occurred to him that he was doing anything wrong. In June of last year, I started a thread on self-deception - click here Maybe it will give you some food for thought. In 1974, In session 12 , I never deliberately thought I’m going to fake SIT - in following wierwille’s instructions – I tried to link it to an experience I was familiar with – my high school days of making up languages…Looking back on it now – it was a learned behaviorism – but I told myself this is the real deal. I’m not calling into question other people’s experience of SIT. But in reevaluating the biblical data and wierwille’s arguments for SIT being such a big deal compels me to bring up the necessity of real Bible study and using our cognitive skills and intuition – we’re less likely to get caught up in someone’s delusions of grandeur or succumb to self-deception. Some interesting articles on speaking in tongues – can it be genuine and/or can it be a learned behavior…depends on the viewpoint and the criteria for a real language: Ezine Articles - Tongues As a Learned Behavior The Spirit Searches – what is speaking in tongues Bible.org - speaking in tongues Wikipedia - speaking in tongues VIDEO - Harvard’s Steven Pinker: how we speak reveals what we think Christianity Today  - speaking in tongues - is it real? – what does it mean? I don't doubt your experiences - but what I'm saying is perhaps there's more behind the scenes - than what you think is happening based on TWI's narrowminded template of theology. I don’t believe there is an unavoidable rule that demands our narrative of spiritual experiences MUST fit into a wierwille/PFAL/The Advanced Class format or that our theories of how God works MUST fit inside the “authorized” wierwille/PFAL/The Advanced Class theological box. In my opinion, wierwille had a way of trivializing God, Jesus Christ, and The Holy Spirit into a marketing strategy – that was cloaked in seemingly godly respect and reverence for such transcendent beings but in practice it was a pseudo-Christianity and wrapped up inside it was a manageable god. How convenient.

Oh yeah - I forgot to address this hissy fit over an imaginary wrong…I never called into question any of the other incidents you brought up - other than your “discernment” of wierwille being loaded with demons. I see no problem In anything you or Twinky shared that involved witnesses - verifiable details. Maybe you’re confusing me with someone else who gave you a hard time about something. I’m all for the agree to disagree thing - and do bear in mind you started your thread in the DOCTRINAL forum. yeah DOCTRINAL- you know a set of beliefs …Bible stuff…Scripture…chapter and verse…hermeneutics - methods of interpretation…theology…that’s why SEVERAL TIMES now I’ve said I believe in the manifestations and spiritual abilities - but not in the way wierwille taught them…and fyi - if you think PFAL is the gold standard of doctrinal discussions you are in the minority on grease spot. try being a little more tolerant of people who don’t follow your group - check out Luke 9: 49 & 50 John answered, “Master, we saw someone casting out demons in your name, and we tried to stop him, because he does not follow with us.” But Jesus said to him, “Do not stop him, for the one who is not against you is for you.”

Hi James French, In case you misread my Grease Spot name – it is T-Bone NOT T-BONER …if you deliberately misspelled it in order to distort my name for the purpose of insulting or ridiculing me then I recommend you review Grease Spot’s Purpose, Mission and Rules here . Furthermore, I find it odd and inappropriate that you say I paint you “WITH A BROAD BRUSH LIKE VPW OR LUCIFER CON MARTINDALE!” when in your earlier posts you describe wierwille in very general and inflammatory terms (“loaded with demons”) and so to with “Lucifer Con Martindale” – geez Louise “Lucifer” ? Come on, man! Painting with a broad brush means without mentioning evidence, specific details and without paying attention to individual variations. As a matter of fact, the content of my VERY FIRST POST on this thread provided alternate criterion for judging cult-leaders -- by listing some biblical and psychological criterion for determining the level of demonic influence – here The more you go on about your powers of discernment the less I believe in your ability to judge well. As much as I’ve criticized wierwille and martindale I’d never go so far as to say they’re loaded with demons or born of the wrong seed. As I’ve mentioned previously wierwille’s teaching on wrong seed is erroneous, illogical and there is no biblical support for it. Which leaves your “loaded with demons” accusation as a shot in the dark – which as far as I’m concerned is mere speculation…also bad form for you to fly off the handle like that -- – your protesting so much is a tip off you didn’t anticipate that anyone would balk at your claim…FYI…when someone objects so fervently to something – I tend to think the opposite may be true…sorry but some of what you said comes across as insincere overacting…maybe if we both dial back the rhetoric and animosity by asking for more clarification we might get somewhere – wherever that “somewhere” is. what I think the “spiritual status” of wierwille and martindale MIGHT have been when I was involved in TWI and interacted with them – leans toward the first three levels of demonic influence from Baker Encyclopedia of Psychology and Counseling that I referenced in my first post – there was enough circumstantial and direct evidence as well as symptoms to indicate those first three levels of demonic influence MAY have been the cause. I am not aware of any circumstantial or direct evidence or symptoms that would indicate either cult-leader had the fourth or most direct level of demonic influence - which is demonic possession. In my opinion that’s a pretty harsh accusation to make. ~ ~ ~ ~ I don’t feel compelled nor do I see the need to get in a pi$$ing contest with you. You can toot your own horn all you want – it’s doubtful if all that hype will make many ex-TWI folks buy into regurgitated wierwille ideology…I mean it’s the same old song and dance and hissy fits that wierwille pulled to manipulate people to disregard their cognitive skills and intuition…You can go on if you want to here – but let’s be clear – as I said before – I will call out the BS – I’m not trashing YOU – I’m merely criticizing a dubious idea you forwarded…it's like you're trying to sell us something...too much hard sell...if you can’t take the heat – you may want to stay out of the kitchen. ~ ~ ~ ~ If you would have given more details on how you were backing down on your support and involvement with TWI because of your discernment – your narrative may have come across as more genuine and a natural development over those 8 years…keep in mind Grease Spot Café is somewhat like a halfway house cyberplace for helping former followers of a harmful and controlling cult adjust to life in a general society…To be honest – I think if you would have started this thread with the your 2nd point - LCM Angry at a Gay believer anonymously requesting prayer at the Business/Professions Conference it probably would have resonated with more folks – because divisive, berating and persecuting incidents like that is something many of us are very familiar with… …and from that as well as all the other acts of caring and compassion that you have mentioned in your recent posts leads me to think you are a good person – and that’s unlike the standard TWI-response of blaming the victim for their lack of believing…as I said before I’m not going to get into a pi$$ing contest with you…if you actually read my previous posts to Mark about manifestations - it should be obvious I believe what the Bible says about the manifestations and about other spiritual abilities – I just don’t believe in them in the way wierwille taught them… …feel free to harp on me about faking SIT…it’s already been discussed how the power of self-deception held sway in TWI…and it’s a tough syndrome to deal with…if you’re an expert on SIT – why don’t you start a thread on SIT… I don’t mind playing the devil’s advocate – we’ve had some good discussions on that…maybe this time around we can get some of you SIT fans to submit a recording of your speaking in tongues to a linguistic expert for analysis. ~ ~ ~ ~ …one thing that always frustrated me in TWI – was when people did NOT receive some miracle…healing…deliverance from whatever - and the cult-leader or some hot dog sycophant supposedly “ministering” to them doesn’t do squat! And these folks get dropped like a hot potato…like the incident I gave earlier of the lady with the misshapen foot…yeah - people can talk a tough game – I have never seen wierwille, martindale or any other top leadership “operate” the revelation or power manifestations…their ideology promises so much but delivers so little… …and you know who gets left holding the bag? People like me – who care about the believers I fellowship with – so we comfort and encourage them to hang in there anyway…besides the typical disappointments, sadness, and displeasure caused by the nonfulfillment of the hopes and expectations people had from the promises of PFAL – I WAS ALSO THERE FOR THE REALLY TOUGH SITUATIONS – to comfort, console, pray, minister, counsel…with believers dying of cancer or suffering from some other illness or tragic accident…I’ve done fund-raisers, funeral services and memorials – not just because it came with the territory of my responsibilities but more importantly it’s what shepherds do when reality deals some tough blows to the flock - like illness, hardship, tragedy and death…and I was there for the death, sickness, hardships and tragedies of relatives, friends and work associates who had nothing to do with TWI – because I’m a human being too – and I’m still there for folks in tough situations – regardless of belief systems…I have this running joke with several former co-workers “we’ve got to stop meeting like this” at funerals where someone in their family has passed away. …it’s pointless to try and guilt me into thinking you’re so spiritual because somebody “revived” and you’re wanting to hear if I can top that. Well great, I’m happy for you and that person and everyone related to that incident…how are you when there’s no positive outcome? How are you when situations drag on and on indefinitely, and they reach out for help because this isn’t supposed to be happening to a true believer. ~ ~ ~ ~ Your ALL CAPS and foul-mouth-ish subtleties are uncalled for. Did it ever occur to you that this isn’t TWI-ville 2.0 and some folks are going to notice inconsistencies in your narrative – like I did with you detecting loads of demons in THE cult-leader but doing nothing about it? Like I said you should have just gone with the martindale homo-purge thing – now your narrative there seems genuine – you called headquarters, you were concerned you took action. That kind of stuff is great – relatable. It doesn’t matter if one believes in the 9 manifestations like you do or not…it doesn’t matter what one’s position is on homosexuality…your incident was great because it clearly showed the hypocrisy and authoritarianism of a supposedly Christian leader. ~ ~ ~ ~ I’ll try to be less of an a$$hole to you…but you don’t have to feel like you should reciprocate – you can still call me T-BONER if that turns you on and you can still TALK TO ME IN ALL CAPS…I’ve got a thick-skin anyway – comes from years of spiritual abuse by pontificating, berating harmful and controlling cult-leaders…so I’ll try not to respond in kind. …and just so you know – I really enjoy the debates and critical analysis on Grease Spot – I don’t take it personal and I don’t make it personal. Anyway…that’s all I’ve got for now…hope you have a good evening…

WordWolf, that’s got to be one of the best summaries of Mike’s modus operandi by which crimes against logic, morality, social norms, and biblical hermeneutics are committed. I can imagine this thread as a printed book titled “The 2nd Wave of returning to PFAL has started...and Other Obfuscating Myths” A compendium of the befuddling and self-righteous nonsense of a wierwille/PFAL fanatic with thoughtful analysis by other patrons of Grease Spot Café. ...and I think your summary should be prominently displayed on the dust cover jacket as a tease to whet the appetite of the curious reader…for now I have the next best thing – I constantly copy and paste each post on this thread into a Word doc – it’s currently at 114 pages – and I’ve been using a small font size of 10.5 to conserve space.

Trying a different format - I have numbered Mike’s statements and then I will respond to each number – maybe it will make for an easier read… Mike said: …Here is the rule book. 1.) You go find out how to cover the sins of those who wronged YOU. Hint: It's called love. 2.) I don't have the time, nor the desire to debate details of ALL what went wrong, except for those who wronged me and those whom I wronged. 3.) There comes a time when we all need to take the Light we were given and love those who have never had the chance to hear it. 4.) All this focus on past sins is preventing your spiritual growth. If you are wondering why you are not a spiritual superman like Jesus, THIS is the reason: sin focus. 5.) There comes a time when you should grow your own tree, and see how much good fruit you can harvest from it. 6.) Time is short. = = = = = T-Bone’s reply to each of the above points: 1.) Please clarify what you mean by “cover the sins of those who wronged YOU”…the word “cover” has several meanings – a quick internet search shows the following appear to be the most common usage: 1. put something on top of or in front of (something), especially in order to protect or conceal it. 2. something, such as darkness, that screens, conceals, or disguises. 3. extend over (an area) 4. deal with (a subject) by describing or analyzing its most important aspects or events 5. In music a recording or performance of a song that was previously recorded or popularized by another. Perhaps we’re all thinking differently on this…going on how much you defend wierwille and PFAL, it seems to me you utilize # 1, 2, and 5 – 1. to cover, protect or conceal the sins/shortcomings/insidious nature of wierwille/PFAL…2. and how you dodge questions or confuse the issues provides darkness…conceals or disguises your extreme admiration for wierwille/PFAL…and 5. it’s the same song and dance that wierwille performed to lead people astray – except your cover of it is some next-level-obfuscating-bull$hit...as weird as it sounds for me to say this - I prefer the original wierwille/PFAL over your Bizarro version...excuse me for bringing up the past - I told you before that you make wierwille/PFAL sound worse than it really is...I didn't know that was possible...you've exceeded my expectations My intent has been to cover the sins/shortcomings/insidious nature of wierwille/PFAL also – but my "cover" is usage 4 – dealing with many issues and problematic ideas by describing and analyzing the most important aspects…don’t mean to brag but I have done that NUMEROUS times just on this thread. 2.) Your not wanting to debate details of ALL what went wrong – pretty much answers my questions earlier (“what are “the Woes” that standout the most? what was/were the thing/things that people didn’t get right the first time?”). So I won’t expect anything further from you on that…I appreciate your roundabout response…better than nothing I suppose...I'd have a little respect for you if you'd just be honest - and reply with something like "I don't know" 3.) You said: “There comes a time when we all need to take the Light we were given and love those who have never had the chance to hear it.” Amen to that! And I hope you will try to understand that may mean different things to different people…For instance – I am so thankful for the light that entered my soul when I broke free of the harmful and controlling mindset of a harmful and controlling cult like The Way International. There is something that so compels me to share my experience on Grease Spot…you’re right... it has to be love – and I so appreciate Grease Spot – that it’s a tremendous platform of freedom’s voice! it's great how folks who have been ripped off by a harmful and controlling cult like The Way International now have a chance to hear the other side of the story on Grease Spot Cafe. 4.) Now you’ve got me a little confused on this point – you said “All this focus on past sins is preventing your spiritual growth. If you are wondering why you are not a spiritual superman like Jesus.” Whose past sins are you talking about? And who put you in charge of my spiritual growth? Maybe you should stay in your own lane…by the way, I’ve never wondered why I’m not a spiritual superman like Jesus. Probably cuz I still retain some old Roman Catholic habits – I usually feel guilty for what an a$$hole I am to God and people – but I’m glad Jesus loves me anyway…and believe it or not I’m working on trying to be less of an a$$hole to God and others. 5.) You said “There comes a time when you should grow your own tree, and see how much good fruit you can harvest from it.” Amen to that! Don’t mean to brag – but I’ve got a big orchard going…something I’ve done even before I got in TWI was write down goals and issues I’m concerned with – it’s something I keep in the back of my At-A-Glance Weekly/Monthly Appointment Book…yeah – I’m an organizational nerd…that stuff is good for reminders – gets me to focus but also to look at the overall picture – covers stuff like my relationships with my wife, kids and friends…music theory, composition, playing bass…reading projects…Bible studies…philosophical and psychological studies…world history…military warfare…science and technology…art appreciation and creativity – I still like to draw…anyway – you get the idea. Besides other outlets - some of the fruit of my labor I have shared on Grease Spot too. 6.) “Time is short”…yes it is…but something I’ve always wondered about – for someone who says they never have the time to read or discuss the deep analysis of wierwille/PFAL - you sure do spend a lot of time writing posts about how you never have the time to read or discuss the deep analysis of wierwille/PFAL . that's all for now - have a good evening

Holy cow, Waysider ! I had no idea it was that intense! I’m glad I asked - thank you for sharing - sorry to make you dredge up those old memories working a full time job AND doing an in-residence training program - I think you may have had it worse than me…my heart goes out to you, Waysider.

I’m not familiar with the Fellow Laborers program…is it anything like the WOW program? I figure with TWI it was all variations on a theme anyway…the theme being PFAL. WOW program: TWI sends you with a few other strangers to Bum Fvck Egypt ; everyone works part time for living expenses so everyone can spend the majority of their “free time” trying to get a PFAL class together. way corps program: TWI isolates you with a few other strangers on their reclusive campus in Bum Fvck Egypt; everyone works for free to maintain the property, but everyone also has sponsors pay for their food, lodging, and a Master of PFAL degree.

Some more great thoughts there, Jerry! I follow you on all that stuff about Jesus’ existence…wierwille’s botched dissecting of John 1:1, the Logos and the Greek word for “with” (pros) always left me royally confused – and I chalked it up to my inability to track what he was saying. Let’s see…his double-talk went something like this: “The Logos was with (pros) God…pros means together with yet distinctly independent of…so… in the beginning - how could Jesus Christ be together with God yet distinctly independent of God? Well, there's only one way that's possible - in what you and I would call the mind of God – in his foreknowledge.” Oh really? So, God had this thought about Jesus Christ. And that thought…that idea…was together within the mind of God yet distinctly independent of God’s mind. Huh? Besides being a terrible interpreter of Scripture wierwille was prone to shoehorn his convoluted logic into a theological box of errors – and we were forbidden to think outside the box…his book Jesus Christ is Not God was a feeble attempt to mischaracterize and trivialize Jesus Christ’s divine nature…But who cares about that stifling…confining theological box of errors - I enjoy the freedom to explore my faith.

Stuff like that makes me wonder about the power of peer pressure…groupthink…and self-deception… I wonder how many folks have been kidding themselves - by allowing a desire to fit in cloud their judgment. …thinking again about how some die-hard PFAL-fans will get all up in arms when someone says they faked speaking in tongues just doesn’t realize the amount of pressure that harmful and controlling cults exert on followers to conform…the “norm” is everyone MUST speak in tongues at the end of session 12 or else they’re subjected to a type of Spanish-Inquisition-process in another room…armed with the intent of maintaining the orthodoxy of PFAL, whoever is conducting this little addendum to session 12 MUST find out WHY the person didn’t speak in tongues…”what’s stopping them from doing it? Are they even born again? Did they commit the unforgiveable sin? Do they have a demon of fear holding them back?” Imagine how nerve-racking this can be – not just for the person who failed to “manifest” but the worry and fear in the mind of the “experienced” grad knowing that if this person doesn’t “manifest” – then THEY will have to report back to their leadership with all the details and then they are subjected to some next-level-$hit-Spanish-Inquisition – in order to maintain the orthodoxy of PFAL – “somebody has to be blamed for the failure cuz there’s nothing wrong with PFAL”…That’s just the start of the road to indoctrination…other items will come up depending on the whim or behest of a harmful and controlling cult-leader…like martindale’s homo-purge. We are social creatures and have a natural desire to fit in. Harmful and controlling cults like the Way International cause discomfort, pain, fear, sadness, frustration and even anger and resentment deep down inside of people who want to fit in – but there’s stuff in their life…in their personality…in their true self that does not conform to TWI’s ideology… …So to survive in the group and to insulate our authentic self from further harm, we adapt somehow – we bury those things and put on our ministry-face. We don’t speak the truth - instead we say what is acceptable…We don’t call a problem “a problem” we call it “an opportunity”. Thus our adaptive self enables us to get along in a challenging social environment like TWI with some success and with the least amount of conflict with others – but often at the expense of our authentic self going into hibernation... The longer you stay involved with TWI the more your authentic self gets buried under TWI’s values, goals, priorities, contrived interpersonal skills, beliefs, behaviors - all of which serves TWI more than your best interest... What wierwille taught is the real you – was actually more along the lines of The Stepford Wives. As a tyrant with delusions of grandeur, wierwille was a proponent of the ideal believer always being servile... compliant... submissive... a spineless person endowed with an almost robot-like ability to suppress emotions, ignore sensory input, and turn off logical subroutines…all the while happily conforming to groupthink. Basically it’s the dehumanizing effect of a cult-leader’s malignant narcissism. Harmful and controlling cults wage a continuous silent war on one’s personhood – and one of the major casualties of these attacks is a type of identity crisis. Some folks might tend to question themselves a lot…most lack the confidence in their own thinking process… we were taught to always check with leadership before making any big decisions… Self-awareness is a conscious knowledge of our true character, true feelings, personal preferences, deep-down motives, and desires. However, this may be difficult to perceive through that translucent overlay of TWI’s social identity “bestowed” on followers. It’s like wearing frosted glasses and looking at your own reflection in the mirror…details are diffused …individual features are not clear. Out of necessity we indulge in self-deception to feel comfortable. Self-deception is a process of denying or rationalizing away the relevance, significance, or importance of opposing evidence and logical argument. Self-deception involves convincing oneself of a truth (or lack of truth) so that one does not reveal any self-knowledge of the deception. from Wikipedia We deceive ourselves because we don’t have enough psychological strength to admit the truth and deal with the consequences that will follow. (clinical psychologist Cortney S. Warren Ph.D) TWI-believers who were never way corps often don’t get it when ex-way corps reveal the dark underbelly of the beast. They might think we’re weak...stupid...not very spiritual... …surely there can’t be anything wrong with a malignant narcissist/sexual predator/pathological liar who created the way corps program based on the gold standard of truth – PFAL.

Hi Mike, Sorry I haven’t got back to you sooner…it seems others have already pointed out you’re up to your sidestepping antics again…you don’t have to play stupid – I asked YOU to clarify a statement that YOU had made…your “answers” are so funny…and pathetic too…pathetically funny… I will humor you for a moment on this one verse - just so I can show our viewers at home the “greatness” of your shenanigans…anyway - I Peter 4:8 NASB Above all, keep fervent in your love for one another, because love covers a multitude of sins. You know, your little game reminds me of the devil tempting Jesus in Matthew 4 Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted[a] by the devil. 2 After fasting forty days and forty nights, he was hungry. 3 The tempter came to him and said, “If you are the Son of God, tell these stones to become bread.” 4 Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.’ 5 Then the devil took him to the holy city and had him stand on the highest point of the temple. 6 “If you are the Son of God,” he said, “throw yourself down. For it is written: “‘He will command his angels concerning you, and they will lift you up in their hands, so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.’ 7 Jesus answered him, “It is also written: ‘Do not put the Lord your God to the test. Have you no shame…trying to protect that wascally weasel wierwille by finagling Scripture. I’ll take a cue from Jesus Christ and answer Scripture with Scripture. James 5:20 remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of their way will save them from death and cover over a multitude of sins. The NLT puts it this way you can be sure that whoever brings the sinner back from wandering will save that person from death and bring about the forgiveness of many sins. In light of James 5:20 and in the broad context of sin – the idea expressed in I Peter 4:8 does NOT preclude the discipline of a sinning unrepentant church member – compare Matthew 18:15-18 and I Corinthians 5 please read Matthew 18 and I Corinthians 5 – I made it easy for you – just click on the hyperlinks – if you’re not suffering from some wierwille induced brain fog – those passages should answer your question about what kinds of sins God had in mind when He inspired Peter to write his epistle…from what I gather reading in Matt. 18 & I Cor. 5 - it appears God had ALL KINDS of SINS in mind....that's ALL WITHOUT EXCEPTION = = == = So…let’s try it again On 5/6/2021 at 11:04 AM, Mike said: I am convinced that 99% of all the woes reported here are due to us all NOT GETTING IT RIGHT the first times. ~ ~ ~ ~ Hi Mike, what are “the Woes” that standout the most? what was/were the thing/things that people didn’t get right the first time? here's your second chance that's all for now

Take note – I’m responding to a couple of posts James French on Feb 18th said: At an event in Oakland in 1979 VPW was about a yard away from me in his 3 piece white suit. I was shocked, I discerned by holy spirit that he was "Loaded" with demons. I didn't say one word to him. Only a few other times have I spiritually sensed such intense what I call "demon density." A close friend of mine who was in The Way had a similar discerning of VPW's spirits at another time and place. All the garbage about Advanced class grads and Way Corps and how sharp they were supposed to be etc. and yet I sensed this before I had the advanced class. Holy spirit is not dependent on Way classes. I stayed in the Way for the fellowship and took the advanced class in 84. I grinned and bared it until 1987 when masses left including me. I am glad I had the Way experience, some of the best and worst people I met in the Way. Lucifer Con Martindale (Loy) was the worst in my opinion. I asked Way Corps Grad Phil Sebastian before he passed away, who knew LCM very well if he remembered Martindale ever operating the love of God? He said "Not that I can recall." Neither can I. I never liked LCM spiritually nor his demeanor. ~ ~ ~ ~ T-Bone’s reply to that: I am curious on how you “discerned by holy spirit that he was "Loaded" with demons”. Exactly HOW did you perceive that? And HOW were you able to quantify “loaded”? And just as critical – did you IDENTIFY all the demons? Sorry to rain on your parade, but all that pretentious spiritualism, self-righteous grandstanding and moral posturing you do is not necessary to figure out what was wrong with harmful and controlling cult-leaders like wierwille and martindale. The good Lord gave us Scripture and if folks would have made good use of cognitive skills and intuition, they would have accurately DISCERNED what ravenous wolves and false teachers these bozos were! Unfortunately, most of us here on Grease Spot had to learn that lesson the hard way – meaning we learned by experiencing the consequences of making mistakes – like foolishly following a cult-leader’s methods of solving problems and making decisions. There’s the lazy way of ostracizing someone who disagrees with a cult-leader…or who has been victimized by a cult-leader - so the cult-leader labels them possessed. The way to escape this nonsense is to think outside the cult’s ideological box. There’s some interesting reading by ex-TWI followers – if you haven’t read these yet – you should! If you have read them – you should reread them again! And take note of how they HONESTLY looked at Scripture, made good use of cognitive skills and intuition to accurately DISCERN what ravenous wolves and false teachers these bozos are - and not only that – they had the courage to put it in writing and get the word out to others! Here tis: Undertow: My Escape from the Fundamentalism and Cult Control of The Way International by Charlene Edge on Grease Spot, Charlene goes by the name Penworks. The Cult That Snapped: A Journey Into The Way International by Karl Kahler Losing the Way: A Memoir of Spiritual Longing, Manipulation, Abuse, and Escape by Kristen Skedgell Was YOUR “discerning of spirits” able to catch the lying and stealing of an unabashed and incompetent plagiarist like wierwille? It’s silly to display such false bravado in “operating the nine manifestations” when it’s the same shtick of wierwille – a hodge-podge of twisted Scripture, ideas he stole from others and usually made worse by his incompetent “reworking of it” to suit his agenda… FYI James French...you’ve been had! You were “taught” how to “spiritually profile” by the number one suspect in spiritual abuse! Maybe you should consider reevaluating YOUR methods. They seem to follow the same obfuscating and manipulative tactics that made wierwille and martindale so harmful and controlling. It smacks of us-versus-them mentality, black-and-white thinking (aka all-or-nothing thinking or “splitting”) and malicious labeling. Harmful and controlling cult-leaders like wierwille and martindale would often polarize social relationships as well as doctrine in order to divide people into two sharply contrasting groups or sets of opinions or beliefs – and then pressure…bully people to choose a side – you’re either on THEIR side – the “rightly-divided Word” side…God’s side or you’re on the wrong side. If you disagree with THEM – then it means YOU’RE the one who is deceived – tricked by the devil…or got possessed…these creepy cult-leaders motivate by fear of the boogieman - Satan, demons, or the fictitious wrong-seed boys and girls – what a twisted and sick doctrine but oh so convenient for manipulating followers by fear…I remember wierwille in several big meetings open to the public declare that in order for someone to really believe in the Trinity they’d have to be possessed…wow - I remember something Jesus said in John 13:35 By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another. ...wierwille didn't exemplify Jesus' teaching now did he? = = = = = James French said on February 27th: My General comments: My experiences are true, not caused by mental illness, delusion etc. Just because you have not experienced something, especially of a spiritual nature as referenced in the scriptures does not mean I and others have not experienced them and are not true. If you never ate an ice cream cone with vanilla ice cream with sprinkels on top, does not mean they do not exist… Regarding T-Bones statements; You faked SIT. This brings into question your credibility, as well as your inability to manifest anything other than a pimple perhaps? My beliefs are not based on PFAL, but on scriptures, God teaching me and my experiences which I have learned from. Some things in PFAL are true, others not so. Way Ministry was a mixture of good and bad. It and the people were not all good or bad. Christ in each believer is true, according to both scripture and MY EXPERIENCES. GOD is my witness also as well as me. Also others have seen, such as the woman walking for the first time in seven years. I witnessed it. You did not. If I saw a bank robbery, and the bank was actually robbed, would you say the bank was not robbed? You apparently have not seen much, and that is sad considering all the areas you served in with the Way? ~ ~ ~ ~ T-Bone’s reply to that: Please review what I said in my Feb 24th post: “I have ZERO experience in discerning of spirits or any other of the “manifestations” as taught by wierwille”. what makes you think what wierwille taught about them is correct? what? is that YOUR litmus test for real Christians - if they line up with your charismatic caricature of Christianity. And my statement does NOT mean I have no experience in using spiritual abilities. what? we're all supposed to go around bragging about "operating all 9 all the time"? PAAALEEEEZE give me a break. Please check out other chapters in the New Testament – there’s a lot more spiritual abilities than just your precious 9 manifestations. Please read my previous posts Here earlier on this thread – where I point out some grave errors in logic and ignoring Greek syntax by wierwille’s handling of I Corinthians 12 and 14 – a manifestation is a detailed disclosure of the Spirit – ONE OF the MANY WAYS the Holy Spirit makes Himself known is through believers using their spiritual gifts..…I find your attempts at one-upmanship very silly and immature. Your attitude of spiritual elitism is underwhelming – but maybe it impresses the people you hang out with – it doesn’t bother me – though I will call your bluff on it when you pull that bull$hit with me. You seem to think that what wierwille taught is the gold standard…what’s really puzzling to me is that you “discerned” wierwille was loaded with demons in 1979 and YOU STUCK AROUND ANYWAY – and EVEN LATER TOOK THE ADVANCED CLASS in 1984! And you even “grinned and bared it until 1987 when masses left " ... And that’s really why it’s hard to believe anything you say… Does it ever bother your conscience that you KNEW he was loaded with demons and yet you stuck around for some 8 more years anyway? Did you still abundantly share of your money to TWI during that time? Did you endorse TWI to anyone you worked with or witnessed to during that time? Did you get anyone to take PFAL during that time? Does it ever bother your conscience that you KNEW he was loaded with demons and YET you facilitated him and his load of demons to abuse Christians anyway? Careful how you answer those questions - they could nab you for aiding and abetting a pathological lying, malignant narcissist, sexual predator...and another count for aiding and abetting his load of demons. This one statement of yours is really interesting: “If I saw a bank robbery, and the bank was actually robbed, would you say the bank was not robbed? You apparently have not seen much, and that is sad considering all the areas you served in with the Way?” If an ACTUAL bank robbery did occur – there’s going to be perpetrators, evidence, video recordings, victims, and witnesses. I have over 40 years of technical experience in the security industry and have worked with police departments, private security, the FBI and bank managers, and have even testified in court as an expert witness. So, you can drop your stupid hypothetical situation. I know what it takes to prove something happened. Where’s the proof of your miraculous adventures? You’re just some person on the internet with an avatar named James French. What are YOU trying to prove? The more you pontificate and claim you’re so spiritual the more you weaken your case. Did YOUR discerning of spirits detect any lying spirits in wierwille? Wanna know how I found out wierwille was a pathological liar? The old fashion way – using cognitive skills and intuition. I left TWI in 1986 during the power-grabs and spiritualizing. Besides all the red flags I had been ignoring for 12 years of TWI-involvement there was also a growing sense of sense of disillusionment derived from the failure of wierwille/PFAL/the Advanced Class/the WOW program/the way corps program to fulfill their declared goals – and also my perception of inconsistencies between the actions of certain TWI-leaders and the ideals they supposedly represent…A criterion that wierwille used at the beginning of the PFAL class kept popping up in my head. He was reading from John 10:10 “The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly” and then he said either Jesus lied to us here or he told the truth. If he lied to us here – then we ought to chuck the whole thing away – because, he reasoned, if the Bible is not trustworthy there it’s not trustworthy anywhere else so why waste your time…and now ironically, I found myself gravitating toward the same criterion – if I could find some serious falsehoods about wierwille and his teachings – then that would be a good reason to review and reevaluate everything. As a matter of fact, I kinda used that thinking to explain why I was putting my relationship with TWI on hold. To my upper leadership and all the believers in my area I was clear and concise in expressing the reason for my resignation from any TWI-responsibilities (at the time my way corps assignment I was overseeing all the TWI-fellowships of an area about the size of three mid-sized cities) . In all my communications I would refer to I Thessalonians 5:21 “Prove all things; hold fast that which is good”. Exhibit A: In the authorized book on TWI, titled “The Way Living in Love” (by Elena S. Whiteside, co 1972, American Christian Press, Library of Congress Catalog Card Number 72-89132), on page 175, Whiteside quotes wierwille as he talked about his studies and influences: “I don’t remember much of the past. I’ll have to renew my mind. Oh yes, did I tell you I taught at Gordon Divinity School? Homiletics was my specialty – that’s preaching. I took everything I could take at the Moody Bible Institute too, through their correspondence courses. And in the years that followed, there were many men I learned from: Glenn Clark, Karl Barth from Switzerland, E. Stanley Jones, Paul Tillich, Starr Daily, Rufus Mosley, Dr. John Gaynor Banks, and there were many, many others. I tried to get all I could from anybody.” I focused on what wierwille said about his education. In early June of 1987, I contacted The Moody Correspondence School Department of the Moody Bible Institute and spoke with Vivian Ruby in the Registrar’s Office. I was stunned to find out they had no record of wierwille completing a course with them. I couldn’t believe it. I didn’t want to believe it. I had to have something more tangible than a woman’s voice over the phone telling me that in effect wierwille lied about something in his education. I asked her to mail me that information in a letter with Moody Correspondence School’s official letterhead…so here is Exhibit B: the letter reads as follows: June 29, 1987 To whom it may concern, This is to verify that Victor Wierwille did not complete a course with us. This is not to say that he didn’t purchase a course from us but that he did not complete one. We do not keep records for courses that are not complete for more than 10 years. Sincerely, Vivian Ruby Registrar’s Office ~ ~ ~ ~ I have that letter on file in my Grease Spot profile album – and it’s here Even if you want to give wierwille the benefit of a doubt and suggest he may have purchased a bunch of courses but did not complete them – I would say that’s doubtful – it still doesn’t agree with what he said, “I took everything I could take at the Moody Bible Institute too, through their correspondence courses.” Even if he purchased ten classes but didn’t complete any of them – how could he say he took everything Moody Bible Institute Correspondence School had to offer? He made a vague and misleading statement. Needless to say, my "investigation" really picked up steam after I held that letter in my hand. ~ ~ ~ ~ James French said: …”That is testimonial about lack of faith and the apostasy in general of the Christian Body of Christ, the Church as foretold in scripture in these end times we are in that such would be the case; APOSTASY, MEANING A FALLING AWAY FROM GOD. The Jews returned to Israel as foretold in scripture after a very long time. We are in the end times. I suggest you doubters and unbelievers of God's 9 manifestations and any other doubts and non-beliefs of the Bible go humbly back to God and ask Him to help you "See the light, not from a Way dogma, but from God's spirit if it is in you, and if not get it, and believe God and manifest and not fake the manifestations.” ~ ~ ~ ~ T-Bone’s reply to that: Hey, great discernment there – “That is testimonial about lack of faith and the apostasy in general of the Christian Body of Christ” said one former cult-follower to another former cult-follower about the same pseudo-Christian harmful and controlling cult they both use to belong to. Speaking of light – Jesus Christ mentioned a really weird predicament about people who ASSUME they have the light – but if what they ASSUME is light is ACTUALLY DARKNESS, how great and terrible is that darkness! Matthew 6:23 sorry to burst your bubble of self-righteousness…but let’s put things in perspective…after 12 years of being indoctrinated…brainwashed…I gradually came to my senses and realized I faked speaking in tongues in session 12 of PFAL…but at the time – I didn’t KNOWINGLY do that…I literally followed wierwille’s instructions to move my lips, tongue and mouth…it felt just like when I faked foreign languages joking around in high school…we’re talking about some 48 years ago…what did I have for breakfast that morning?...it’s possible I thought wow I must have been speaking in tongues all those times in high school when I was fooling around…maybe I was SITing…I never recorded my schtick in high school or my speaking in tongues in TWI – if I did I could have brought that to a professional linguist for analysis – and could then find out if either was genuine of fake…at least I’m honest and not putting on airs I’m “operating all nine all the time”. …But you know, I served TWI with a clear conscience…I never committed adultery. I never sexually molested anyone…I never stole anyone’s money or belongings… …now remember we’re still putting things in perspective…I’m just flabbergasted you harp on me faking SIT and yet YOU turned a blind eye to whatever a cult-leader like wierwille was doing - and who by the way you also claimed was loaded with demons - you turned a blind eye to all that for 8 years! I dunno...something doesn't add up...something about your story sounds fishy to me. Wierwille was an unabashed plagiarist…that means he stole and lied…a lot…isn’t there stuff in the Bible that says we’re not supposed to do that? He was a known sexual predator, an adulterer…isn’t there stuff in the Bible about how bad that is? Well…if you ever decide to get off your high horse and read – or reread those three books I listed above – maybe you’ll be able to recalibrate your scale of values to the simple honest principles of The Bible. well...that's all for now - have a good evening

Overall great post, Jerry! I intend to reread it a few more times – lots of stuff to mull over…I’ll just chime in now with a things that came to mind. Bravo on the move to start with I Cor.14 and SIT…over the years after I left TWI, I’ve done a lot of rethinking on the manifestations. Your statements “God works with different people on different terms. Your mileage may vary” – touched on something I shared recently on another thread. I was reading The Moody Bible Commentary on I Cor. 12:7 where it talks about each believer is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good – and the MBC said a manifestation is a detailed disclosure of the Spirit - one of the ways the Holy Spirit makes Himself known is through believers using their spiritual gifts. For me, this was very different than what PFAL taught – and especially so, since there’s a lot more gifts than what’s mentioned in Corinthians…Anyway I think your statements go along the same lines of how we grow. All I remember from PFAL was there’s 9 manif. and 5 gift ministries – and there you are a nice neat little theological box…But I get the idea real growth is open-ended… having no determined limit or boundary. Some really heavy stuff here Jerry! I love being challenged…I love exploring the Christian faith…as time goes by, I find myself less troubled by contradictory messages and paradoxes…maybe it has something to do with the two different aspects stuff you mentioned . One aspect is from my finite human point of view. The other aspect is from God’s infinite divine point of view. I’ve been a technician for most of my life. That’s probably what was some of the appeal of PFAL – it seemed to shove aside the mysterious – flattening transcendence into measurable data. In the class wierwille said “you tell me what you think of Jesus and I’ll tell you how far you’re going to go spiritually.” In place of transcendence…the mysterious…God…we now have explanation and control…but I’m becoming a big fan of the mysterious again.

Thanks Bolshevik - that is a very informative and helpful video! You know your smartphone is smarter than you when you have to Google the internet to find out how to use most of its features. That's me most of the time

Sorry to belabor this particular point, Mark – though I agree with you on the idea that we are not puppets on a string…Scripture-wise, up to this point (I Corinthians 12:11) it would be premature to suggest that Paul means “It is both” in that verse. I say premature because here the verse doesn’t concern the proper time – when both the Holy Spirit and the believer are “in sync” – to work well together, to be in agreement, or match well with someone else – though that is “the game plan”. If anything, I Cor. 12:11 stresses WHO formulates “the game plan” – it’s The Holy Spirit – if I were to elaborate on why I think Paul is emphasizing that, I’d say maybe he wants to prevent someone from being too hasty…impetuous…impulsive…egotisical…striving to be an all-star player instead of a team-player…This merely repeats what Paul had already said in verse 6: And there are [distinctive] ways of working [to accomplish things], but it is the same God who produces all things in all believers [inspiring, energizing, and empowering them]. I Corinthians 12:6 The Amplified Bible And to rehash what I got into with my previous post - correcting wierwille’s erroneous teaching that each believer can do all nine - “energized by the same car battery” – as wierwille put it in PFAL – reducing THE Holy Spirit to an inanimate rechargeable power source for an automobile. In that metaphor, it implies the person driving is the one calling the shots – the car battery has no will of its own – no say in the matter. It may be a convenient metaphor to shoehorn his misinterpretation into the topic – but it’s foreign and not supported by Scripture. Paul taught that EACH believer had a spiritual gift – in I Corinthians 12:7 NASB it’s called “manifestation” “But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good.” A manifestation – or "a detailed disclosure of the Spirit. One of the ways the Holy Spirit makes Himself known is through believers using their spiritual gifts" is what The Moody Bible Commentary says of v.7. The Moody Bible Commentary goes on to say that the Spirit gives gifts to each believer (v.11) based on His sovereign determination – NOT on the believer’s asking for it. At the end of chapter 12, Paul asked a series of rhetorical questions – each anticipating a negative response – so in verse 13 it says “…we were all baptized by one Spirit so as to form one body…and we were all given the one Spirit to drink” but not ALL speak with tongues (verse 30) – so tongues cannot be THE sign of the baptism in the Spirit. Chapter 12 ends with “But earnestly desire the higher gifts” (ESV) – which is a command in light of I Corinthians 14: 1, 12 “ Pursue love, and earnestly desire the spiritual gifts, especially that you may prophesy… So with yourselves, since you are eager for manifestations of the Spirit, strive to excel in building up the church.” But does not contradict I Corinthians 12: 11, 18 “All these are empowered by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as he wills... But as it is, God arranged the members in the body, each one of them, as he chose.” ~ ~ ~ ~ End of referring to The Moody Bible Commentary

No offense Mark, but I don't think we're talking about the same thing...you are basically saying the same thing wierwille said in PFAL when he misinterpreted I Cor. 12:11 to mean "distributing severally as he (the believer) wills." what I expressed in my post was that God chooses what to distribute - and it's to whomever He chooses...that's a big difference! Please click on this link > I Corinthians 12:11 and read all the different versions of that passage...it seems pretty obvious in each version that God is the one doing the distributing as He desires...it has NOTHING to do with a believer having more faith and desire!

Hi James French, The experiences you talk about DIFFER GREATLY from mine AND the TWI-followers I knew as well as what I have seen and heard in all the areas I served – I was in TWI from 1974 to 1986, went WOW and was in the way corps – and for 12 years of my involvement I served in New York, Wash. DC, Colorado, Indiana, Louisiana, Illinois, Michigan, Wisconsin, Ohio, and Texas. I say the experiences you’ve mentioned are TOTALLY UNLIKE mine, partly because I find your narrative incredulous and partly because your premise is based on faulty teachings from the Power For Abundant Living class. My experiences: I took PFAL in 1974 and at the end of session 12, I followed the instructions of the teacher – I stood up, and moved my lips, tongue and mouth and made-up words. TWI calls that speaking in tongues. I call it learned behaviorism. I could do that before I took PFAL – I use to fake oriental and Russian sounding gibberish in High School as part of my class-clown shtick. As far as speaking in tongues goes – you might want to check out The Reluctant Skeptic website - I challenge you to HONETSLY answer the 10 hard questions - click on that link > The Reluctant Skeptic: 10 hard questions about tongues ...so I faked it...and I've heard some others admit now that they faked it too... after all there is a lot of pressure from everyone running the class that it's a big deal! And I'm not saying everyone faked it...but going on the limitations mentioned in I Corinthians 12 - not EVERONE can or will speak in tongues. I think “speaking in tongues” was a lot easier to fake for many folks in TWI, compared to interpretation of tongues and prophesy – because the tongues-gibberish didn’t have to make sense…I’ve NEVER WITNESSED anyone in TWI ACTUALLY DO the other six – the revelation and power manifestations ! Though we’ve all heard talk about it – but talk is cheap – and misleading…and MATTER OF FACT, what I HAVE WITNESSED and HEARD were enough “manifestation misfires” to make me think wierwille and martindale were phonies...there's been some Grease Spotters here who have worked very closely alongside wierwille and martindale and they will also confirm they've never seen these two "operate" the big 6 (revelation and power manifestations)...here's just a couple of "misfires" that always come to mind when we get into talking about what big phonies these bozos were: 1.) A lady in my Twig with a misshapen foot from birth went to Camp Gunnison because wierwille was there for some big event. She asked him to heal her foot. He couldn’t do it. She came back to my Twig crying – telling me wierwille essentially blamed the failure on her unbelief…gee what happened to the grace of God like in Mark 9:24 "I do believe; help my unbelief!" and what about Ephesians 3:20 "Now to Him who is able to do far more abundantly than all that we ask or think" that right there tells me God is NOT limited by my believing. 2.) At an early 80’s Rock of Ages, Ted F. collapses on stage during a performance – martindale rushes over and begins ministering to him – we could all hear what was said because Ted was still holding a microphone…martindale is going on and on praying for Ted’s heart and blah blah blah…when he stops praying, Ted says quietly “It’s my knee, Craig”… that became a living meme on the byways of ROA. I remember seeing musician Skip M. near one of the family tables “reliving” the parts of both Ted and martindale and the folks on his picnic blanket were cracking up. ~ ~ ~ ~ Some doctrinal issues: I also wanted to address some dubious premises in your posts…one is your idea that all believers can operate all 9 manifestations…I disagree. I don’t want to give you the idea that I think the manifestations are no longer operative. I merely challenge wierwille’s ENTIRE body of work on the holy spirit/Holy Spirit – which it seems pretty obvious to me you are basing your position on what he taught. The Holy Spirit has been another favorite study project of mine…In my opinion wierwille butchers up the Greek syntax, and is often mistaken on who a pronoun refers to in I Corinthians 12, 13 and 14 wierwille ignores Paul distinguishing between the genuine speaking in tongues (plural) and the gibberish counterfeit of pagan ecstatic speech, speaking in a tongue (singular)…an example of wierwille mistaking who the pronoun refers to see - “But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills.” I Corinthians 12:11 if you’ll remember wierwille taught the “he” in verse 11 referred to the believer – but you’ll find that translators interpret it to mean The Holy Spirit – God – by capitalizing “He”. Feel free to click on that verse/link I just gave to see alternate versions – which will bear me out on the point that it’s the prerogative of The Holy Spirit – NOT the believer – to distribute…online commentaries of this passage – like I Corinthians 12:11 commentaries <please click that previous link – these commentaries will also bear me out – besides the commentaries I have at home – printed and digital. You have correctly stated “Holy spirit is not dependent on Way classes” – I agree. the Holy Spirit is our tutor as seen in passages like I John 2:27 “But you have received the Holy Spirit, and he lives within you, so you don’t need anyone to teach you what is true. For the Spirit teaches you everything you need to know, and what he teaches is true—it is not a lie. So just as he has taught you, remain in fellowship with Christ.” …it is presumptuous to think we need anyone teach us about the manifestations…there is no precedence for that anywhere in the Bible…I also think it’s kind of egotistical to assume we each have all nine – when I Corinthians 12:12 and following emphasizes the contribution of ALL believers with differing gifts, ministries, abilities, and focuses on unity – a team effort. Much of what you said reflects exactly what wierwille taught in the Advanced Class…This is ironic to me – since you base your “discernment”, criticism…assessment of wierwille using the same dubious criterion that he promoted in PFAL and the Advanced Class For brevity’s sake I will refer to my post in the > 2nd Wave of Returning to PFAL thread where I mentioned the fourfold insidious recipe of PFAL - which is wierwille’s signature intuition, fundamentalism, spiritualism, and Gnosticism. You seem to rely on conspiracy theories - and some statements you’ve made are very disturbing – like your statement “The seed talker may have been a seed planted by the enemy? After all, practically all denominations and non-denominations have been infiltrated by the Jesuits and other "seed boys and girls." “ FYI demonology is the NON-SCIENTIFIC study of demons or beliefs about demons, and the hierarchy of demons. “NON-SCIENTIFIC study” is another way of saying the study does NOT involve careful observation, does NOT apply rigorous skepticism about what is observed, does NOT formulate hypotheses via induction based on observations, does NOT involve experimental and MEASUREMENT-BASED TESTING of deductions drawn from the hypotheses, and does NOT refine or eliminate hypotheses based on the experimental findings. For TWI-believers we all thought wierwille was in his element whenever he taught on this stuff. One of the most bizarre and unsettling topics was his teaching on the unforgiveable sin - being born again of the wrong seed. As the proof-text for this he used a passage like Matthew 12: 31-37 to “inform” us that there is only one sin that God will not forgive and the passages in John 8: 12 – 59 where Jesus said “…I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father…Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do.” wierwille zeroed in on the two fathers mentioned by Jesus and ignoring Jesus’ use of figurative language he decided to double down on dogmatic fundamentalism. wierwille emphatically stated it was literal – which meant that there were only two sources of “spiritual seed” (whatever that is) supplied by two diametrically opposed fathers – one father is God the creator of the heavens and the Earth – and the other father is the devil. Theologians as far back as Augustine have interpreted John 8:44 FIGURATIVELY – meaning Jesus’ enemies were children of the devil BY IMITATION. A similar figurative interpretation is held by many modern theologians like Albert Barnes, Matthew Poole, F.L. Godet, H.A. Ironside, William Kelly, R.C.H. Lenski, Arthur W. Pink, J.C. Ryle, R.V.G. Tasker, and W.E. Vine ( see also the free online resource John 8:44 online commentaries ). For someone like wierwille who boasted of the great accuracy and integrity of the Bible and his in-depth analysis of it as well as his supposedly great experience in discerning of spirits and in casting out devil spirits – he offered very little details on exactly how one would commit the unforgiveable sin and get born again of the wrong seed. In my opinion this is one of the most questionable and treacherous doctrines of wierwille. A doctrine that is so fraught with psychological stress that the session on the unforgivable sin was pulled from the PFAL class proper, and was only available for viewing sometime later – after a new student “successfully” completed the PFAL class (i.e. they supposedly spoke in tongues) and has been reviewing all the class material and attending Twig Fellowships for a while...We can only speculate why wierwille yanked it from the class proper – my guess is that there were some unintended consequences...maybe he was aware of some folks having issues with thinking they might have committed the unforgivable sin... I remember reading on Grease Spot someone shared of a person they knew who was convinced they committed the unforgivable sin – so they committed suicide... ...how awful !!!! such tragedy and destruction wrought by wierwille's twisted doctrines! A fascinating relevance to Gnosticism’s maxim of spirit good / matter evil correlates to wierwille’s body, soul, and spirit teaching – the erroneous trichotomy view of a Christian . wierwille defined soul as breath-life - which is an organic function of the body (matter) which is evil. sounds like a lot of double-talk to me...a combination of sense and nonsense... I also recall something – I think I heard martindale as one of the first TWI-leaders to refer to natural men and women (who do not have spirit) by the derogatory term “empties floating by”. Basically, this trichotomy view of a Christian goes against the biblical view that men and women were created in God’s image. The Bible does NOT suggest we lost God’s image in the Fall… An interesting study is a look into the Hebrew definition of “death” – not that I will go into great detail here – but you’ll find basically it means “separation” rather than annihilation or total obliteration – i.e., cease to exist. That human beings still retain the image of God – though it may now be tarnished is suggested in such passages as Genesis 9:6 and James 3:9 in which both refer to a time long after the Fall in Genesis 3. in wierwille’s “expertise” of the Advanced Class tinged with Gnosticism, speculations and dubious theories - we found out about all the categories of devil spirits...the fully initiated are the elite who deserve to have influence and authority over others...part of the big hype of the Advanced Class is the mystique of conspiracies – the Illuminati, One World Government, the wrong-seed boys running everything,..part of the attraction to conspiracies may have something to do with what psychologist Ello Martino said: "humans have a need for control and order when distressed. Fear, uncertainty, and feelings of being out of control can lead people to search for patterns and meaning in people's behavior as a way to make sense of the chaos and attempt to navigate the fear of the unknown. This is an evolutionary adaptive mechanism designed to keep us alive" From Psychology Today - This Is Why You Are Attracted to Conspiracy Theories Besides the fact that wierwille’s demonology is a NON-SCIENTIFIC study – I will also point out – if you haven’t realized it already - his demonology - as well as his study of holy spirit/Holy Spirit is NOT biblical. A BIBLICAL and CRITICAL analysis of the logic in wierwille’s Great Principle “God who is spirit can only speak to what He is which is spirit…God’s Spirit teaches His creation in you, which is now your spirit, and your spirit teaches your mind…and etc. “ will show it’s severely flawed. What about God talking to Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden? What about God talking to Moses and writing the ten commandments with His finger? What about Balaam’s donkey talking to the prophet? What about God putting a futuristic dream of world powers in the mind of Nebuchadnezzar? And what about God telling Daniel the dream He put in Nebuchadnezzar's mind and then tells him what the dream meant? What about Jesus, Peter, James and John on the mount of transfiguration and a voice came out of the cloud “This is My beloved Son, with whom I am well-pleased; listen to Him!”? These are all just a few biblical passages that exposes the error of wierwille’s nonsensical principle...it's almost laughable how wierwille had such a trivial concept of God - and he passed that on to us poor suckers who bought into wierwille's confining...stifling...trivializing theological box. And if one dared to think outside wierwille's theological box - they were condemned...ridiculed! "How dare you doubt the man of God and the rightly-divided Word that he taught...why you're a cop out...nothing more than a rank unbeliever...a spiritually hitchhiker. You're probably not even born again...You phony!" In closing – I wanted to address some of the last things you said: “…I could go on about my own healings, revelations etc. You either believe The Word or you don't? To the degree you trust God and in what areas is to the degree that you see amazing things. I suggest you rethink your position of unbelief and doubt? It is unfortunate that most Christians do not walk by the spirit and see God's incredible power manifested in life!” Looking at your profile, I see you joined Grease Spot Café on June 22, 2002. That was some 20 years ago. I joined on January 19, 2006 – some 16 years ago. I venture to say my beliefs have changed…expanded…deepened…my faith in God has grown and enriched my Bible study in that short time – my beliefs or the beliefs of other Grease Spotters may not exactly line up with your opinions on something....and some of what you expressed seems to reflect the dogmatic and pompous criterion of wierwille/PFAL/TWI I find your false dichotomy “You either believe The Word or you don't” off-putting, condescending and manipulative. It seems like you are stuck in a PFAL-time capsule...Maybe you should rethink your position on some of the things you've posted. Perhaps you’d be interested in a civil discussion here or start another thread to honestly talk...listen...exchange ideas...clarify...explore...reevaluate... if everyone thinks alike - maybe that means no one is really thinking...hence the value of discourse and the variety of viewpoints! ...I look forward to your reply

Maybe that’s the “genius” of being self-deluded…great intelligence and altruism are not required… The definitions of con artist and cheat that Bolshevik mentioned earlier don’t require great intelligence…just great skill – the ability to do something well…wierwille was very charismatic – an entertaining and inspiring speaker. After I left TWI, in trying to make sense of my cult experience and trying to demystify a harmful and controlling cult-leader - what stymied me for a long time, was trying to imagine how I could pull off something like that… …I’ve had a long career in security systems and access control – and believed a prerequisite to designing a good system was learning to think like the bad guys…what would they do to break in and steal someone’s stuff? But one thing that even the best security systems cannot defend against is social engineering - the use of deception to manipulate individuals into divulging confidential or personal information that may be used for fraudulent purposes... How did wierwille captivate my soul? It was an inside job – and I let him in! So, in the early days after my TWI exit – in trying to think like a harmful and controlling cult-leader – I probably had some caricature of a willful evil genius bent on world domination…but “willful evil” gets into trying to prove intent… …and “genius” usually means exceptional intellectual or creative power or other natural ability…but when I started to think of other “formulas” for becoming a harmful and controlling cult-leader, I came back to the idea that IF wierwille was self-deluded (deluded by oneself or having deluded beliefs concerning oneself) then it’s possible he could have had the best of intentions and felt justified – for whatever reasons - in anything he attempted to do……and perhaps the “genius” he had was not exceptional intellectual or creative power but in his aptitude for deception. In my opinion he was a great actor…The only time he flubbed his lines is when he went off-script - especially in live teachings or speaking extemporaneously...see visual aid below in the DVD bonus feature section - this actor couldn't even handle a simple script. I’ve always loved sci-fi movies and I believe one of the key factors of enjoyment is the suspension of disbelief. “Suspension of disbelief, sometimes called willing suspension of disbelief, is the intentional avoidance of critical thinking or logic in examining something unreal or impossible in reality, such as a work of speculative fiction, in order to believe it for the sake of enjoyment. Aristotle first explored the idea of the concept in its relation to the principles of theater; the audience ignores the unreality of fiction in order to experience catharsis.” From: Wikipedia – suspension of disbelief DVD bonus feature: Liberty Mutual Insurance with struggling actor commercial ( this is one of my all-time favorite commercials – and it drives Tonto nuts if she’s fast-forwarding commercials on something recorded on the DVR and I see this one go by – I have to watch it. No actually – she knows I love it too and will even let me know if it’s on and I’m in another room – she’ll say “hey, your guy is on”)