T-Bone

That depends on one’s definition of death…previously I made reference to a thread I started on Human Nature – in which I shared the ancient Israelites conception of death – NOT as annihilation – but separation. According to their view physical death = separation of the body from the life-animating soul/spirit (whatever that is ) – and spiritual death = separation of the life-animating soul/spirit (whatever that is ) from God. In light of this, there are biblical scholars who mention on pages 2310 and 2311 of the NIV Biblical Theology Study Bible interpreting the second death as ETERNAL separation from God mentioned in Rev. 20:14 & Rev. 21:8 – stating that this is talking about eternal conscious torment: New International Version Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death…Revelation 20:14 New International Version But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death… Revelation 21:8 This seems to be consistent with other passages addressing the eternal state of each person in accordance to what they have done: Psalm 62:12 NIV: and with you, Lord, is unfailing love"; and, "You reward everyone according to what they have done." (biblehub.com) Matthew 16:27 For the Son of Man will come in His Father's glory with His angels, and then He will repay each one according to what he has done. (biblehub.com) Romans 2:6 God "will repay each one according to his deeds." (biblehub.com) And speaking about death – whether - physical and/ or spiritual some folks might enjoy reading Beyond the Cosmos by Hugh Ross. A word of caution – this is all SPECULATIVE - the author Hugh Ross is an astrophysicist and theorizes about the nature and capabilities of an eternal body each soul will ‘occupy’ … As I said, his book gets into a lot of conjecture referencing things like superstring theory and such…and I guess theoretically what he said sounds plausible – but that’s not to say that’s the only way God could work things out…my only reason in mentioning his book is to offer one option how Scriptures that seems to suggest a soul/spirit will be reunited with some type of body that has some physical properties distinct from the immaterial nature of the soul/spirit…that applies to BOTH the just and the unjust: New International Version and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned…John 5:29 New International Version and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked…Acts 24:15

Well maybe not totally off topic since the discussion is over are the dead alive now. all this is speculative - as I mentioned to Mark in an earlier post, defining consciousness is the $64,000 question! Considering the souls under the altar reference will take us on decision tree of possible interpretations of that passage - to recognize possibilities like I posed earlier - the souls under the altar drawing on symbolism of sacrifices in the OT. OR If it’s literal, that gets into defining consciousness. HOW are they able to react to the injustices and voice concerns if they are DISEMBODIED souls? Is it possible DISEMBODIED souls have their own built-in capabilities that we as CORPOREAL beings cannot possibly relate to? I lean toward appreciating the symbolism. And your comments of the souls made me think of the relevancy the symbolism carries- both when it was written and even now. How grieving parents would want to warn others about the ways criminals target kids. Or how families will want justice in a legal system over a preventable tragedy that happened to a loved one…of course the Revelation passage is in reference to believers being martyred - something I know little about in my comfy cozy world - so I used scenarios I’m familiar with that touch on the same heart-rending emotions. if anything that passage informs me that God is aware of those issues and will resolve them all.

Great post, Chockfull !!!! Since I got rid of the exclusive and snooty attitude encouraged by The Way International, I’ve come to appreciate the rich variety of resources and fellowship that’s available – makes me think of Ephesians 4:16 : New International Version From him the whole body, joined and held together by every supporting ligament, grows and builds itself up in love, as each part does its work. New Living Translation He makes the whole body fit together perfectly. As each part does its own special work, it helps the other parts grow, so that the whole body is healthy and growing and full of love. English Standard Version from whom the whole body, joined and held together by every joint with which it is equipped, when each part is working properly, makes the body grow so that it builds itself up in love. New King James Version from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love. New American Standard Bible from whom the whole body, being fitted and held together by what every joint supplies, according to the proper working of each individual part, causes the growth of the body for the building up of itself in love. Amplified Bible From Him the whole body [the church, in all its various parts], joined and knitted firmly together by what every joint supplies, when each part is working properly, causes the body to grow and mature, building itself up in [unselfish] love. Christian Standard Bible From him the whole body, fitted and knit together by every supporting ligament, promotes the growth of the body for building itself up in love by the proper working of each individual part. NET Bible From him the whole body grows, fitted and held together through every supporting ligament. As each one does its part, the body grows in love. New Revised Standard Version from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by every ligament with which it is equipped, as each part is working properly, promotes the body’s Ephesians 4:16 Greek Interlinear (you’re on your own with this one – it does not copy and paste well…but it is worth it to click on this link to check out the Greek) Like Yogi Berra always used to say it’s like Ephesians 4:16 all over again.

I want to say cool stuff like that!

Yes, I thought that determinism and free will thread left a lot to be desired…especially since a certain poster’s “thesis” was heavy on the presuppositions and abysmal on coherency and lack of testable hypotheses. (check out How to Develop a Theory: 14 Steps (with Pictures) - wikiHow for those so inclined to be theorists ) What makes your posts much more captivating to me are the references to your experiences, the interdisciplinary studies you mentioned and of course the book you mentioned. I’ve read a couple of other books along these lines, and I read them – if I remember based on your recommendations: Subliminal: How Your Unconscious Mind Rules Your Behavior by Leonard Mlodinow …I love the back of the dust jacket – if you hold it a certain way to the light you can see Buy! Buy! Buy! in a shiny ghost image. (actually he's got more 'subliminal' messages all over the jacket "Hey there, yes: you sexy" no kidding ) The Hidden Brain: How Our Unconscious Minds Elect Presidents, Control Markets, Wage Wars, and Save Our Lives_by Shankar Vedantam One of the reasons I've enjoyed these books may be like you saying how “Catholic Church/religion…"primed" me for PFLAP and twi”. I believe as we improve cognitive skills we get better at becoming aware of some on that unconscious stuff that influences us. I think of growing up in the Roman Catholic Church, being an artist and musician during the counterculture 60s, and having a fascination for how things works are just a few of the undercurrents I am fuzzily aware of that gently pushed (that's probably too strong a description of such subtle forces ) me in the direction of PFAL / TWI...maybe I was attracted to that stuff because it looked like it could help me get whatever it was I was looking for...without really knowing what I was looking for I’m a sucker for You Tube videos of cats, dogs, musical instruments and how-to stuff. I’m aware of the algorithms the servers have and they feed me similar videos and related ads. It’s entertaining – but you know a similar feedback happens for news, politics, religion…sometimes it takes a lot of effort to wade through the bull-$hit and the noise and boil something down to the essentials of an issue. When you mentioned The Loop can read people's faces, other nonverbal cues, and actions to make snap judgments with a degree of accuracy, it reminded me of some technology I’ve read about that can “read your mind” - experts using a neural network to predict images based on your brain signals in scans. You quote from the book “99% of our waking activity is strictly automatic and habitual” got me thinking that might be relative to one’s age. I am running on 99% automatic mode / habits now in my late 60s! And it’s kind of scary to think about that – because I know I’ve built up a lot of bad habits! Little kids are just forming habits and learning routines to navigate their world… ...Another frightening thing about aging – I seem to have a decreased ability to multitask. At least several times a week I’m on some mundane chore around the house – like going to clean the cat litter box ...and on the way I notice a book I left out. So, I get sidetracked – pick up the book and glance over something I highlighted - and maybe read more of the book... Totally forgot about the cat box (the cat valet is off his game )…maybe this all belongs on another thread – maybe I should start one: I’ve lost the will to remember what I was doing.

There’s perhaps no clearer example of wierwille’s overreach as the president of The Way International than in his teaching of Romans 13 and his definition of the “higher powers”. If memory serves this was on a SNT tape entitled Higher Powers. wierwille read from Romans 13 The Living Bible - it starts off with verse 1: Obey the government, for God is the one who has put it there. There is no government anywhere that God has not placed in power. For those who are not familiar with wierwille’s teaching of Romans 13 – the main thrust of it is – after wierwille lambasts The Living Bible version – using words like “government”, he redefines the King James Version “higher powers” to be the gift ministries! It never occurred to me until after I left TWI and worked on removing the PFAL filter from my brain and demoting wierwille to a non-man-of-god status, that I should question or re-evaluate anything he taught. Numerous questions came to mind in trying to reconcile wierwille’s misinterpreting Romans 13 the higher powers as gift ministries. One big question loomed large. Why was Paul so cryptic in Romans 13, if he meant to refer to the gift ministries? And then why all the allusions to law enforcement, taxation, and a justice system? Those terms are obviously referring to functions and activities of a governing body – certainly not applicable to a church. ~ ~ ~ ~ It was while I was figuring out my next move (figuratively and literally) I came across an estate sale of a pastor. There is where I committed one of my first acts of open defiance – I purchased several commentaries – one of them I quote from – Lenski - see below – in a “reissue” _ of a post I made on another thread about government…speaking now as an ‘adult adult’ ( remember that goofy term wierwille used ?) freed from a cult’s suppression of my cognitive skills, I would just like to say – not one has all the answers. Make no mistake, harmful and controlling Pharisaic cults like The Way International are intent on weakening and overthrowing one’s cognitive skills. One must learn - - or maybe re-learn how to think for oneself. Cognitive skills are like a muscle – use it or lose it. ~ ~ ~ ~ I’ll leave it up to any Grease Spotters – if interested – to read the entire chapter of The Living Bible – at the end of my post I’ve included it and several other versions of Romans 13 from BibleGateway.com: A searchable online Bible in over 150 versions and 50 languages. And once you’re on their website you can punch in what book and chapter in the center box you want, and to the right is a pulldown box for version of your choice then you click on the magnifying glass ikon - convenient study tools! In my book wierwille’s teaching on the Higher Powers of Romans 13 deserves The Spinal Tap Award - drawing on both the medical procedure which may also be done to inject medications into the cerebrospinal fluid – intrathecally - particularly for spinal anesthesia[9] or chemotherapy AND This Is Spinal Tap (1984) a mockumentary of Spinal Tap, one of England's loudest bands, chronicled by film director Marty DiBergi on what proves to be a fateful tour…You smersh ( yikes what a reference!) them together and it metaphorically means the recipient of The Spinal Tap Award was able to inject an anesthetizing fluid into one’s cognitive skills with a delivery system that goes up to 11 . ~ ~ ~ ~ Anyway…as promised below is a reissue of an old post of mine: I believe God created human beings as free moral agents AND as social creatures . As Wikipedia’s link suggests – being social creatures we are greatly interactive with other members of our own species, with an individual’s success highly dependent on the overall cohesion and propagation of the group. the first institution established by God to help provide for social needs was marriage as seen in Adam and Eve - the two becoming one flesh...then further on the propagation of the group as Adam and Eve start a family. Perhaps one of the more serious repercussions of the Fall is not only tainting perfection with sin but also throwing a wrench into the proper operation of interpersonal skills… Now let’s get a whole bunch of imperfect people to live together, conduct business together and in general try to get along without tearing each other apart. That gets into the human condition and even though it’s a broad topic – the human condition is often a recurring priority addressed by many religions, philosophers, and psychologists. Me being the two-bit sociologist that I am - - I got to wondering if God didn’t perhaps build certain fail-safe “programs” into humans that would come into operation if something went wrong. Thinking about civilizations and societies one could interpret their tendencies to establish law and order as simply a response to satisfy some innate desire for such things…a workaround solution…an instinctive drive to restore proper socialization. One more thing I wanted to mention before commenting on Romans 13 - - was a definition of institution for the purpose of this post I’ll go with two common definitions of institution - An organization founded for a religious, educational, professional, or social purpose …and… An established official organization having an important role in a society, such as the Church or parliament. What I hope to show is that Romans 13 refers to the institution of government in general as a necessary means to the continued existence of a civilized society – and that it does NOT refer to… or specifies …or endorses any one type of government: From R.C.H. Lenski's Commentary on the New Testament: Romans, co. 1936 , on page 786, Lenski says of Romans 13: “No particular form of authority is specified: imperial, monarchial, oligarchical, republican, democratic. Whether this authority is exercised in a noble or in an oppressive manner, whether it was attained in a legitimate or in an illegitimate way, neither limits nor qualifies the Christian’s position. One implication is plain: anarchy is not according to the will of God. While it has had its theoretical advocates it could not be established so as to continue, for it is the abolition of all governmental authority. When Paul wrote he scarcely had in mind his personal experiences as a Christian under Roman authority, the climax of which was yet to come when he suffered martyrdom; but he certainly had in mind the Jewish authority which forced Pilate to send Jesus to the cross and his own violence as a rabid tool of the Sanhedrin which led to the martyrdom of so many of the first Christians. The fact that authorities and authority may act criminally changes nothing as to God’s will regarding their establishment among men.” End of excerpt ~ ~ ~ ~ And from Evangelical Dictionary of Theology gen editor Walter A. Elwell , page 477, under Government. The Biblical Witness: “From a biblical point of view government is one of the means God has established to rule his creation through human stewardship.” End of excerpt ~ ~ ~ ~ We see from other passages that no earthly government takes priority over the authority of God. Commenting on Romans 13:1-7 in Evangelical Commentary on the Bible gen editor Walter A Elwell , pages 951 and 952 it says of Paul the author of Romans: “He sees the state as a gift of God’s common grace to guarantee civil order and to restrain uncontrolled evil (the ruler “is God’s servant to do good “ [v.4]; cf. 2 Thess. 2:6-7, where the final eschatological eruption of rebellion by the “man of lawlessness” is being held back by “that which” and “he who” restrains, very likely respectively, human government and the Holy Spirit… …Elsewhere in Scripture the believer is enjoined to disobey authorities where they demand denial of the Lord (e.g., Daniel and his three friends [Daniel 3, 6]; Peter and John [Acts 4:19-20]; and Jesus himself in his disregard for Sabbath laws and refusal to replay to official questioning [Luke 23:8-9] ). Furthermore, Paul himself describes the power of the state as provisional in I Corinthians 6:1-6, and Revelation 13 characterizes Rome as the demonic beast from the abyss. Paul is aware of these negative and complementary aspects of human government but focuses here on the issue of respect for instituted authority as a necessary precondition for the Christian mission…” End of excerpt ~ ~ ~ ~ Romans 13, like so many other passages in the Bible, touches on some things that are far bigger than just the immediate context of directives being given. Sometimes we may rush to a conclusion without giving any thought to the background or issues that a particular biblical directive addresses. I believe we have the need for order and socialization that is written into our makeup – hardwired, if you will – by our Creator - and though we are fallen creatures - those needs are still present and crave to be satisfied. The institution of government is one of the many methods that God has provided for overcoming the problems and limitations of the human condition. From: my post on All Governments from God? thread Oct. 18th 2017 11:30 PM ~ ~ ~ ~ DVD bonus featurette 1…here’s a couple more recent posts that reiterate Romans 13 stuff: my post March 4th 2023 11:22AM on Craig has his own offshoot thread my post March 7th 2023 8:35 AM Kristin Du Mez author of Jesus & John Wayne thread ~ ~ ~ ~ DVD bonus featurette 2…here’s some other versions of Romans 13: Romans 13 TLB Romans 13 KJV Romans 13 NIV Romans 13 NLT Romans 13 NASB Romans 13 ESV Romans 13 AMP Romans 13 HCSB Romans 13 PHILLIPS Romans 13 MSG Romans 13 MEV Romans 13 NET Romans 13 RSV Romans 13 WYC Romans 13 MOUNCE The End

If I could add my 2-cents – in the spirit of compromise – everyone is right! First off, a shoutout to WordWolf’s brilliant observation of the twofold nature of mints . Now on to less complicated stuff… The Pharisees prided themselves on their precision of interpreting Jewish Law and adhered to a source of law called the “tradition of the fathers” in addition to the Torah of Moses. In volume 3 of The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia: 4 Vol. Set gen editor Geoffrey W Bromiley under PHARISEES pages 822ff it notes of particular interest are the political activities of the Pharisees, especially in Flavius Josephus, Antiquities of the Jews, Book 13 (tufts.edu) in sections 288 – 298…They were not considered primarily a political force (see Pharisees - Wikipedia , Pharisee | Definition, History, & Legacy | Britannica , Who Were the Pharisees? The Beginner's Guide - OverviewBible , Who were the Pharisees? | GotQuestions.org , and Pharisees - Bible Odyssey ) . From what I’ve read, they were mostly middle-class businessmen, leaders of the synagogues and by extension considered leaders in the community. They were a minority in the Sanhedrin BUT seemed to control the decision-making of the Sanhedrin because they had popular support among the people and generally politics can make for some strange bedfellows. During New Testament times the Jews in Jerusalem had power over their own people of Israel - BUT being under Roman rule meant that their authority was very limited. That did not prevent major internal wrangling for power and influence among those who were in positions of perceived authority. The Pharisees were at odds with the Sadducees. They did NOT agree on a lot and did NOT get along, yet in the end they joined forces to eliminate Jesus. Some notes from: How Were Politics Part of Jesus' Crucifixion? - Christian Questions Bible Podcast ~ ~ ~ ~ In my opinion religion and politics may work hand in hand at times. Religion can strongly influence how a person votes, and political views can influence religious thought. As Skyrider said: Political affiliations embrace religious ideology. Religious ideology embraces political affiliations. Six of one, half dozen of the other. ~ ~ ~ ~ HAPe4me posted on the Hayes Gahagan thread in 12/21/2008, 12:07 AM: In the late 70s, Hayes Gahagan, a PFAL grad, was highly touted by VPW as a political hero to God's people (us wayfers). TWI sent Political WOWs (PowWOWS) to surreptitiously campaign for him, if I recall correctly) from: Hayes Gahagan topic And more recently there was a thread Doug Mastriano thread started 11/1/2022 6:09 AM , who joined The Way in the 1980s. He's featured in this New Yorker article, How Election Subversion Went Mainstream in Pennsylvania. I think harmful and controlling cults like The Way International would fit right in with all the conspiratorial baloney that’s going on. Religious cults can be breeding grounds for secular cults. As Wikipedia says a cult of personality is the result of an effort to create an idealized and heroic image of a leader. Remember Steven Hassan the author of Releasing the Bonds: Empowering People to Think for Themselves and Combating Cult Mind Control: The #1 Best-selling Guide to Protection, Rescue, and Recovery from Destructive Cults …He has written another fascinating book about a cult of personality – but since politics are a no-no on Grease Spot Café I’ll leave it up to you to click on this hyperlink, that has been encrypted to protect the faint of heart > The Cult of Orange-Hole: A Leading Cult Expert Explains How the Orange-Hole Uses Mind Control ...you know I'm bad, I'm bad, bad, bad Shamone ...oop de shoop...bring the band on down behind me, boys...cuz I gots a few other hyperlinks on religion and politics folks might wanna check out later: 5 Ways Religion Can Influence Political Beliefs | Nicholas Didonato (patheos.com) Religion and Politics | Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy (utm.edu) 10 facts about religion and government in the U.S. | Pew Research Center The Role of Religion in Politics - AP-NORC (apnorc.org) ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ Let’s look again at Matthew 23 that Skyrider mentioned in the starter post – and be sure to stay tuned for my secret hats-off signal to OldSkool’s The Absent Christ? thread after the Matthew passages: 1Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: 2“The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. 4They tie up heavy, cumbersome loads and put them on other people’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them. 5“Everything they do is done for people to see: They make their phylacteries wide and the tassels on their garments long; 6they love the place of honor at banquets and the most important seats in the synagogues; 7they love to be greeted with respect in the marketplaces and to be called ‘Rabbi’ by others. 8“But you are not to be called ‘Rabbi,’ for you have one Teacher, and you are all brothers. 9 And do not call anyone on earth ‘father,’ for you have one Father, and he is in heaven. 10 Nor are you to be called instructors, for you have one Instructor, the Messiah. 11 The greatest among you will be your servant. 12 For those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted. 13“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the door of the kingdom of heaven in people’s faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to. [14] b 15“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when you have succeeded, you make them twice as much a child of hell as you are. 16“Woe to you, blind guides! You say, ‘If anyone swears by the temple, it means nothing; but anyone who swears by the gold of the temple is bound by that oath.’ 17You blind fools! Which is greater: the gold, or the temple that makes the gold sacred? 18You also say, ‘If anyone swears by the altar, it means nothing; but anyone who swears by the gift on the altar is bound by that oath.’ 19You blind men! Which is greater: the gift, or the altar that makes the gift sacred? 20Therefore, anyone who swears by the altar swears by it and by everything on it. 21And anyone who swears by the temple swears by it and by the one who dwells in it. 22 And anyone who swears by heaven swears by God’s throne and by the one who sits on it. 23“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cumin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. 24You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel. 25“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. 26Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean. 27“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of the bones of the dead and everything unclean. 28In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness. 29“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the graves of the righteous. 30And you say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our ancestors, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.’ 31So you testify against yourselves that you are the descendants of those who murdered the prophets. 32Go ahead, then, and complete what your ancestors started! 33“You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell? 34Therefore I am sending you prophets and sages and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town. 35And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36Truly I tell you, all this will come on this generation. 37“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing. 38Look, your house is left to you desolate. 39 For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’ c ” Matthew 23 NIV ~ ~ ~ ~ Verse 37 really got to me – “you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing” – I see a weird Twilight Zone parallel with the Pharisees being one of the instrumental forces in killing Jesus and a harmful and controlling pseudo-Christian Pharisaic cult-leader - - victor paul wierwille – who taught me in the PFAL class “The Word takes the place of the absent Christ…that’s Grade A top-shelf cult-leader bull-$hit right there, folks!

I think the more important lesson here is that - like everything else - only wierwille could rightly-divide the mints… …makes sense too - wierwille’s rightly-divided “Word” was a coverup for some really stinky, twisted, unbiblical and depraved theology!

Got some of that in our pantry…should I be concerned?

Hey all Grease Spotters, Considering the topics this thread has touched upon, some of you might enjoy listening to these You Tubes by Michael S. Heiser and here is his website > Dr. Michael Heiser - Biblical Scholar | Author | Semitic Languages Expert (drmsh.com) . The Unseen Realm - documentary film with Dr. Michael S. Heiser The Unseen Realm Q&A with Dr. Michael S. Heiser and Dr. Ben Witherington III Demons and evil spirits in scripture: Dr. Michael Heiser 2019 What the Bible ACTUALLY Teaches about Demons (w/ Dr. Michael Heiser) Who was Satan in the Book of Job? With Dr. Michael Heiser Satan and Eden: with Dr. Michael Heiser That’s all for now

I thought Mounce’s reference to Colossians 2:2 NIV was in reference to the Mystery of Christ. The king said to Daniel, “Surely your God is the God of gods and the Lord of kings and a revealer of mysteries, for you were able to reveal this mystery.” Daniel 2:47 I think dispensationalist theology may inadvertently fragment the Mystery of Christ. Some commentaries explain that the Ephesians 3 Mystery of Christ was not as obvious before Pentecost: 4 In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5 which was not made known to people in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God’s holy apostles and prophets. The OT writers, in fact, did know about it and referred to it again and again like in Genesis 22:18 , Psalm 72 , Isaiah 11:10 , Hosea 1:10 , and Malachi 1:11 to cite just a few. “What these prophets did not make clear was the connection with the coming of the Messiah and the outpouring of the Spirit the old theocracy would be completely abolished and in its place would arise a new organism in which the Gentiles and the Jews would be placed on a footing of perfect equality”…from Exposition of Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, and Philemon by William Hendriksen page 154. If you look up the NT scholar William Hendriksen you might read about his influential work Israel and Prophecy, written a year after the 1967 war, and still in print, Hendriksen criticized the view, held by dispensationalists and Christian Zionists, that the Bible prophesies the return and restoration of the Jews to the land of Israel. Dispensationalist pastor Barry Horner describes Hendriksen's work as "a classic representation of replacement theology". Personally, I don’t have a dog in this fight on dispensations, no dispensations, Pez Dispensers. I imagine God looks at groups, sects, religions and such a lot differently than we do anyway – and I’m becoming more of an inclusive kind of guy than exclusive. ~ ~ ~ ~ There’s an approximately 34 minute You Tube video by Dr. Michael Heiser that addresses a few details mentioned on this thread video is here > Prophecy and Eschatology: the Rapture by Michael S. Heiser - Heiser points out a problem with 1 Corinthians 15 NIV and Revelation 20 NIV . Heiser asks of 1 Corinthians 15:54 is this the final victory over death. If you say “yes” then what about Revelation 20:14 this is the final judgement – after the “second coming” – this is the place and time when death is finally destroyed. Heiser says Paul’s statement in I Cor. 15:54 conceptually links to an event after the “second coming”. He also asks how literal do we interpret words like “air” and “clouds” in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 . You might enjoy the video simply as an ex-TWI-follower (recalling wierwille’s 4 crucified mishmash of Scripture) - for taking another look at how to interpret a wide range of NT Scripture about the return of Jesus Christ – they do not all agree in every detail. Heiser asks “Are you a splitter or a joiner?” There is no cosmic law saying you must interpret a passage as a splitter of topics or a joiner of topics. In other words, do these 2 separate passages refer to 2 different things or to the same thing? …I’m still trying to wrap my head around this stuff since I’ve gotten into a lot of Heiser’s work – so I’m not going to butcher the gist of everything – but this video and another text series Eschatology Series - Dr. Michael Heiser (drmsh.com) it appears Heiser does not believe in a rapture – and from what I gather he’s more of a “joiner” on Scripture about the 2nd coming of Christ. ~ ~ ~ ~ Some sad news about Michael S. Heiser – he passed away in February 2023. May he rest in peace.

Hey Mark, Cool post – thanks for the hyperlink do we go to heaven after we die…I read it and intend to reread it a few more times. When wierwille taught on body, soul, and spirit in PFAL and in ADAN, I never felt like he adequately addressed what happens to the soul and spirit (keeping with his trichotomy view). The matter of consciousness is a deep deep subject even now – let alone in ancient times. I get the euphemism of sleep…wonder if it's anything like being put under anesthesia for surgery. That's a weird experience! I come out of it after a surgery - and there's no memory of feelings during the surgery - nor any weird dreams...One time I joked with the doctor afterwards "come on, this is all a scam - you didn't do anything, right -you can be honest with me." ...not going anywhere in this post – just some random thoughts…if death is separation of body and life-animating soul/spirit. Where does the soul/spirit go? And how much of our personality is in our body/soul/spirit? The body has the sensory inputs - locomotion capabilities ...we must need a body - so - what's it like being bodiless? what can I do? So, all the dead souls are just floating around somewhere right now? Are there other angels (besides the ones that keep good records of each person/personhood) that will coordinate with the record keepers to reunite reconstituted body/soul/spirit? what about all that superstring theory stuff and the extra dimensions? I've seen estimates of 10 up to 26 dimensions total. Does the soul/spirit have existence outside of our 3 known dimensions + time? In other words, in the other dimensions? when everything is said and done at the end of the book of Revelation are all the dimensions unraveled? united? connected - or rather re-connected?

Hey OldSkool, just wanted to share some pertinent information to your posts…I thought you might get a kick out of the NICNT by Mounce mentioning the book of Enoch…The book of Revelation is one of my 7 favorite books of the Bible – I’ve got a pretty good selection of commentaries by various scholars with differing viewpoints – but I don’t want to give the impression to anyone I’m an expert on Revelation…rather I key off a question or point someone makes on Grease Spot – probably triggers something I’ve read and reread many times before...That's one of the things I like about Grease Spot Cafe - the give and take of it all...I like how the input of others helps me to focus and organize and reorganize all this stuff that I read. Maybe someday it will all make sense to me! …I think these excerpts might help sort out a couple of things…maybe not …anyway…I quote Revelation 10: 5 – 7 first, because the commentaries draw some on the buildup to 7 …so here goes: 5 Then the angel I had seen standing on the sea and on the land raised his right hand to heaven. 6 And he swore by him who lives for ever and ever, who created the heavens and all that is in them, the earth and all that is in it, and the sea and all that is in it, and said, “There will be no more delay! 7 But in the days when the seventh angel is about to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will be accomplished, just as he announced to his servants the prophets.”… Revelation 10 NIV ~ ~ ~ ~ On page 206ff of The Book of Revelation (The NICNT) by Robert Mounce it says this of Rev.10:7: The proclamation of the mighty angel is that there shall be no further delay, but with the sounding of the seventh trumpet the hidden purpose of God will be accomplished. The NKJ translation, “when he is about to sound,” could be taken to mean the mystery of God will be completed before the sounding of the seventh trumpet. What the angel is saying, however, is that within that period of time to be introduced by the seventh trumpet blast the mystery of God will be brought to completion. A great deal of attention has been given to the meaning of “the mystery of God.” In Col. 2:2 the exact phrase is used to refer to Christ, in whom are hidden the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. The idea of mystery was important in apocalyptic thought. Mysteries were secrets preserved in heaven and revealed to the enraptured apocalyptist ( 1 Enoch 71:3ff.; also 40:2: 46:2). An eschatological orientation is always present in the NT use of the word. In Rom. 11:25 the final destiny of Israel is a “mystery.” The “mystery” of 1 Cor. 15:55 is the change that will overtake the believer at Christ’s return. In 2 Thess.2:7 the “mystery of lawlessness” (RSV) that is at present restrained will soon be fully revealed and at the coming of Christ will be destroyed. The mystery of God in Rev. 10:7 shares this apocalyptic coloring and refers to the purpose of God as revealed in the consummation of human history… …The drama has now moved to that moment immediately preceding the final scene. From this point on, the Apocalypse becomes a multidimensional presentation of the final triumph of God over evil. Any attempt to arrange the material in a strictly sequential pattern is doomed to failure. From his vantage point on the brink of eternity John unveils the evil forces that operate behind the scenes of history and in the last days will mount a final and furious assault upon the faithful (12:12, 17). End of excerpts ~ ~ ~ ~ And pages 313ff of New Testament Commentary: Exposition of the Book of Revelation by Simon J. Kistemaker notes of Rev. 10:7 We would have expected the seventh angel to blow his trumpet to introduce the series of seven plagues. This is not the case here, because John is writing only a preliminary reference to this event and not the event itself, which will take place in 11:15. With this reference he tells the reader to wait until he has completed the writing of his interlude that describes the task of God’s people on earth. In other words, the blowing of the seventh trumpet will not occur immediately during or after John’s lifetime. When the trumpet sounds, the days of the end have arrived and are made visible by several visions. The trumpet blast announces the message that the end is at hand and the consummation of this age is near. And when this trumpet is heard, the second woe belongs to the past (11:14). The third woe encompasses the judgment (11:15b – 19)… …The events take place in the future, at the time when the mystery of God will be accomplished. Interestingly, whereas in the translation the future tense of the verb to accomplish is used, the Greek text shows the past tense. In Greek the past tense has a futuristic connotation that should be understood not from the author’s point of view but from God’s eventual fulfillment. When the delay has run its course (v.6), the trumpet of the seventh angel will sound and God will cause his mysterious plan to become a reality. When this trumpet sounds, the time has come for God and his Christ to rule the kingdom of the world and to judge the dead (11:15 – 18). The cry of the souls under the altar asking for judgement will be fulfilled on the Judgement Day (6:10; 20: 11 – 15), and the blowing of the seventh trumpet is a sign of that day. End of excerpts

Good question. I don’t know. Some of the things I speculate about on this goes back to the ancient biblical concepts of death I shared about in a previous post – like physical death being a separation of the body from the life-animating spirit or soul - whatever that is. Thus, technically death is not annihilation or a cessation of existence. In Genesis humankind is created out of several “components” for lack of a better term. How one breaks that down is a matter of opinion. The trichotomy view – humankind was originally composed of body, soul and spirit – which is held by some groups like TWI. The dichotomy view – humankind are composed of body and soul / spirit – see the hyperlinks in my previous post from the Human Nature thread. Personally, I lean toward the dichotomy view – which simply distinguishes between the material and immaterial “parts” of humankind: 26 Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.” 27 So God created mankind in his own image, in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them…Genesis 1 NIV ~ ~ ~ ~ 5 Now no shrub had yet appeared on the earth and no plant had yet sprung up, for the Lord God had not sent rain on the earth and there was no one to work the ground, 6 but streams came up from the earth and watered the whole surface of the ground. 7 Then the Lord God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being…Genesis 2 NIV ~ ~ ~ ~ I think things can get silly when we interpret the Bible like a scientific textbook. To me, what the above passages suggest is that there’s two sides to our existence – natural and supernatural. Also, it seems to me the soul / spirit components were meant to be “housed” in something physical…In light of that, when I read I Corinthians 15, it does seem to suggest a few things depending on the current physical status. If one has been dead – the physical elements of their body must be reconstituted. What if they’ve been dead for eons – disintegrated into the surroundings? I don’t know how God is going to pull all this off. Just all speculation here on my part. One possibility could be something gee-whiz-hi-tech like in the film The Iron Giant (1999) . One of our favorite movies – near the end of the story this huge robot from another world saves a small town from a nuclear missile but it is blown to smithereens in the process. Robot parts are scattered all over the globe. The story closes with scenes of Robot parts responding to a homing signal from the head and they go flopping, bouncing, crawling in the direction of the head… Similar to the tech that Tony Stark invented - injecting neural transmitters into his arm in the beginning of Iron Man 3 (2013), which enables him to summon the various parts of his suit of armor… jumping to other thoughts – in superstring theory one of the suppositions that theoretical physicists posit is that down at the smallest level of “stuff” we’ll find unique loops – or strings. And that each string has a unique frequency. This identifies and sets the properties of the string. In Beyond the Cosmos: The Transdimensionality of God by Hugh Ross astrophysicist Ross speculates among other things how Jesus Christ could walk through walls in his new body by altering the properties of his body…of course this is all speculation…now think about this: However, do not rejoice that the spirits submit to you, but rejoice that your names are written in heaven…Luke 10:20 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books…Revelation 20:12 Think of all the stuff that has been written, recorded and documented in our world. Is it too hard to imagine there’s some divine beings – angels - who are in charge of keeping records – logging the unique frequencies of each created being…now go to I Corinthians 15 – maybe it’s talking about the reassembling of the stuff our bodies are made of – note it speaks of being clothed – I have another idea to think about after you read the following: 35 But someone will ask, “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?” 36 How foolish! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. 37 When you sow, you do not plant the body that will be, but just a seed, perhaps of wheat or of something else. 38 But God gives it a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives its own body. 39 Not all flesh is the same: People have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another and fish another. 40 There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another. 41 The sun has one kind of splendor, the moon another and the stars another; and star differs from star in splendor. 42 So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being” ; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. 46 The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the dust of the earth; the second man is of heaven. 48 As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the heavenly man, so also are those who are of heaven. 49 And just as we have borne the image of the earthly man, so shall we bear the image of the heavenly man. 50 I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed — 52 In a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”… 1 Corinthians 15 NIV ~ ~ ~ ~ Now remember these passages from my previous post: When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?” Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters, were killed just as they had been…Revelation 6:9-11 NIV I realize there’s a lot of symbolism going on here with the souls under the altar…But beyond that – why does it say these souls were given a white robe and told to wait a little longer? Is there a double meaning? Is the white robe temporary housing for the soul? Just a thought.

Just my opinion here: I don’t think wierwille ever switched the “theme” of his ministry - which I believe was always about wierwille ! Make no mistake, wierwille was an unabashed plagiarist so all credit goes to him! Considering the timeline of wierwille’s ministry - I took PFAL in ‘74 and if memory serves, wierwille’s SNT tape of the red thread came out sometime after my WOW year - so maybe between ‘77 and ‘79, I remember playing the tape for our Twig and some local leadership were trying to outdo each other on who could recite the red thread the smoothest and fastest with the same pizazz as wierwille…. I could go up in the attic and dig out the SNT tape and look at the date - but I’m a lazy butt … I know what you’re thinking “hey T-Bone the extreme variations in attic temperatures is murder on cassette tapes”. Yes - I know. In retrospect I don’t think it suggests a transition of themes (from the Jesus movement to the written Word taking the place of Christ) not only it doesn’t fit in the wierwille timeline - but there really is NO transition of themes if you think about it - I can still hear wierwille’s passionate delivery and the point he drove home “who was that fourth man in the book of Daniel? In Genesis he’s the seed of the woman, in Exodus he’s the Passover lamb … …Jesus Christ - you find him everywhere IN THE WORD !” I’ll give him this - he sure put on a good show…if I didn’t know better - I’d say he sure looked and sounded like a genuine preacher of the gospel.! You might say “well, after all Jesus Christ IS the great subject of the Bible , so what’s the problem with wierwille’s red thread teaching?” Maybe it’s just me but reflecting on the main theme of wierwille’s ministry - which was that wierwille would teach us “the Word” like it hadn’t been known since the 1st century - his plagiarized red thread teaching was just a variation on a theme. Jesus Christ is found everywhere in “the Word”. Who is teaching us “the Word”? Why wierwille , of course. It’s just another way to keep fans interested. wierwille used the topic of Jesus Christ like window dressing. It’s the bait of bait-and-switch. “Want to know more about Jesus Christ? Just come into my store - we have whatever you could want or need.” This is the type of thing that can be appreciated on different levels depending on one’s viewpoint. And actually there are other LEGITIMATE sources on what the Bible is all about anyway . Take for instance What the Bible is All About by Henrietta C. Mears and check out what Wikipedia says on Mears or read the book jackets on how many noteworthy people she trained and influenced. She passed away in 1963 - I bought her book in 1999 and have shared it with our kids because it’s biblically focused on Jesus Christ - and fwiw some of how Jesus Christ is portrayed in each book of the Bible from what Mears says differs from wierwille / Oral R. - but no big whoop - “I didn’t write the book”.

I think you point to the collaterals as another bluff. They contain wierwille’s ‘original’ nonsense. Collaterals in the 1970s – Wow ! you’re talking vintage Kool-Aid! It’s odd that you - as a professional window cleaner – would liken the collaterals to providing a clear window into the Bible. I wonder what your standard is for a clear and clean window. Did you ever get around to cleaning the sin-stained glass windows on your church’s catechism – i.e., the collaterals? Just wondering. Everyone has biases, mental filters, ‘windows’ for how to interpret and process perceptions of anything. You probably won’t understand this, but I’ll say it anyway – even though I’ve seen you poo-poo this concept on other threads – using critical thinking skills enables one to better identify and isolate their own biases, mental filters, viewpoints - to not only recognize dubious ideas but also separate the wheat from the chaff. Obviously, that is a process you still avoid like the plague. ~ ~ ~ ~ Mike said: You probably don't think through the positive stuff NEARLY as much as you think through the negative stuff. Once again you have big-a$$-assumptions. I spent 12 years thinking through the ‘positives’ in the collaterals – to no avail! Your bogus challenge sidesteps the real issue. Since wierwille was a harmful and controlling pseudo-Christian lying, cheating, thieving, plagiarizing, self-serving, narcissistic, abusive, manipulating, sexual predator WHY should I look for any positive stuff in all that he said and did? Where in the Bible does it indicate I should do that? On the contrary in Matthew 7 NIV Jesus told us to watch out for false prophets and ravenous wolves camouflaged like sheep and He also said we’re to recognize them by their bad fruit. He didn’t say sort through the fruit and keep the good stuff. Jesus also warned us of evildoers who claim Jesus is their lord but ignore doing the will of the Father – like wierwille’s convenient commandments-of-God-loophole “as long as you love God and neighbor you can do as you full well please”. (btw I noticed you ignored my previous references to that and where it was in PFAL ). If you don’t like the gospels because it’s not your administration - try 2 Peter 2 NIV it’s the same basic idea of false prophets and false teachers among you who introduce destructive doctrines, and many follow their depraved conduct: 1 But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2 Many will follow their depraved conduct and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. 3 In their greed these teachers will exploit you with fabricated stories. ~ ~ ~ ~ As much as some people stubbornly defend wierwille-doctrine and want to grant him a free pass for his depraved lifestyle, one has to wonder why. Maybe they find that “as long as you love God and neighbor you can do as you full well please” a good fit for what they’ve been doing or plan to do. I know - it seems contradictory – some folks who claim they love the Word of God and yet also quickly come to the defense of a notorious liar, cheater, thief, plagiarist, self-serving, narcissistic, abusive, manipulating, sexual predator like wierwille. Maybe there’s something wrong with their scale of values.

Are we to assume Mike has done a survey? Mike’s version of a survey might be private messaging other wierwille fans on Grease Spot. I have a hard time believing anything Mike says. Mike has done such a ‘good job’ of shooting his own credibility in the foot, I find myself trying to decode the contradictions, exaggerations and lies wrapped up inside his frequent rants. I usually can’t get a straight answer out of him, so part of my deciphering process is trying out alternate translations of what he says. For example: Mike: Grads that are relatively happy with what they got from PFAL don't like coming here, because of all the bitterness they encounter here against what went wrong at TWI. One possible translation: Mike is relatively happy with what he got from PFAL and he doesn’t like coming here, because when he’s challenged on what he got out of PFAL he has to bail. ~ ~ ~ ~ Mike: …they read threads and see others shot down with barrages of bitterness. One possible translation: Mike reads threads where other big-wierwille fans go on and on promoting wierwille’s ideology and it worries him to see their nonsense posts shot down so easily. ~ ~ ~ ~ Mike: This is not a happy place. Constant focus on sin and treachery is the rule. It is a bitter place to most grads, and if you ask them you will find out I am right. One possible translation: Mike is not happy here – because when he mindlessly promotes wierwille adoration, thoughtful Grease Spotters expose Mike’s subjection to the rule of wierwille’s sin and treachery. Mike may be angry over the unjust treatment of his idol wierwille.

I live by the golden rule – treat others as I would like to be treated – that’s my standard for helping others. I don’t have a Twig or a ministry or belong to any church or ministry. On Grease Spot what I like to point out to “new” people is the necessity to develop their own cognitive skills – something that was and is grossly undervalued at The Way International. ~ ~ ~ ~ Mike seems to be stuck in servitude to a dead idol – and apparently believes people cannot think for themselves. I think one of the issues that some former cult followers have to deal with is a bad habit of codependency …. Malignant narcissists like wierwille exhibit antisocial behavior, aggression, and abuse. A malignant narcissist is always ready to raise the hostility level – and I know from 12 years of TWI experience wierwille had a way of pitting the world against “The Word” – which would undermine relationships of families, friends, careers, and even subvert personal goals – basically anything that was not 100 percent on board with wierwille being the man of god for the world! Malignant narcissistic cult-leaders like wierwille dehumanize the people who follow them. Followers wind up depending on the cult-leader for establishing a standard way to think and act...This is perceived by the followers as providing spiritual leadership. One fascinating field to check out is the psychological study by those qualified to observe and prescribe therapies for the intellectual and emotional damage in a cult-follower or former cult-follower. I’ve been to professional mental health providers myself and can vouch for the world of good it did to help me unpack the intellectual and emotional baggage of being in a harmful and controlling cult for 12 years! ~ ~ ~ ~ In case anyone hasn’t noticed Mike is staging a false dilemma . A false dilemma, also referred to as false dichotomy or false binary, is an informal fallacy based on a premise that erroneously limits what options are available. Mike seems to assume everyone needs a plagiarizing, lying, thieving, abusive drunkard, megalomaniac, self-serving sexual predator like wierwille to provide definitive answers to their adoring fans. An if you don’t have someone like that then you’re $hit out of luck on finding a good substitute for the Almighty wierwille. That may be the real dilemma Mike has to deal with. How to fill the void of the absent wierwille...why he goes on and on about this is indeed a mystery...maybe misery loves company.

Mike seems to have ‘mastered’ bluffing, dodging and derailing. Mind you I use the term “mastered” loosely - it’s not that Mike shows great skill and proficiency in the inept way he bluffs , dodges and derails - perhaps it’s an unholy adoration of wierwille that has mastered him - like a taskmaster that drives him to mindlessly defend his idol. Mike said: Fools will settle only on their own light to guide them. That’s one hell of a projection! Way to go, Mike! Weird how Mike projects his own problems onto others - - assuming everyone needs a guide to replace the absent wierwille. Generally the issue with Mike vs Grease Spotters is Mike’s wierwille-centric belief system vs any other belief system that does NOT idolize wierwille.

127. PFAL urges students to view a lot of the Bible as a blank check from God. In the first session of PFAL, wierwille was very excited about the more abundant life Jesus Christ made available. And he portrayed it as mostly material abundance – for he speaks with envy of what he observed in non-Christians. At one point he teaches to receive anything from God, the first thing one must know is - what is available. He also makes a claim there are over 900 promises in the Bible – and asks the class how many do you know? And then states that’s how many promises you can claim. Now consider the words of Jesus: but the worries of this life, the deceitfulness of wealth and the desires for other things come in and choke the word, making it unfruitful…Mark 4:19 I've known many Christians (besides myself ) who have fallen into discouragement, disillusionment, and disappointment with God over unbiblical expectations...I think in part we may have been misguided about prayer, and we get caught up in thinking financial prosperity and owning lots of stuff are proofs of God’s approval and favor. Grads of PFAL are often urged to think of certain passages of Scripture as a means to tap into God’s unlimited resources – like a blank check with the amount left for the payee (the believer) to fill in. How different from the modest life Jesus lived and promoted: Now it came to pass, as He was praying in a certain place, when He ceased, that one of His disciples said to Him, “Lord, teach us to pray, as John also taught his disciples.” So He said to them, “When you pray, say: Our Father in heaven, hallowed be Your name. Your kingdom come; your will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Give us day by day our daily bread. And forgive us our sins, for we also forgive everyone who is indebted to us. And do not lead us into temptation but deliver us from the evil one.” And He said to them, “Which of you shall have a friend, and go to him at midnight and say to him, ‘Friend, lend me three loaves; for a friend of mine has come to me on his journey, and I have nothing to set before him’; and he will answer from within and say, ‘Do not trouble me; the door is now shut, and my children are with me in bed; I cannot rise and give to you’? I say to you, though he will not rise and give to him because he is his friend, yet because of his persistence he will rise and give him as many as he needs. “So, I say to you, ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. If a son asks for bread from any father among you, will he give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will he give him a serpent instead of a fish? Or if he asks for an egg, will he offer him a scorpion? If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him!” Luke 11 NKJV ~ ~ ~ ~ Jesus was teaching his disciples principles of prayer. God is pictured as a loving, caring, and righteous Father to all of us. It also speaks to the brotherhood of man. Not to be so stubborn in getting our way but to submit to the sovereignty of God. Our prayer life should be immediate – we think and focus on our needs of the current day. We treat others like we would like to be treated – and we imitate our forgiving Heavenly Father when we forgive others. We ask God for moral guidance when the way is not clear, and we ask Him to rescue us from bad decisions and overwhelming circumstances. Jesus taught we must be persistent in prayer – often I give up too easy. Sometimes I’m blinded by my own worry and don’t see that God may have already answered my request in a different way than what I expected. Sometimes we doubt if God will come through for us - or give us the wrong thing. I think James could be speaking to folks who are into the prosperity gospel. James warns, “You ask and receive not because you ask with wrong motives, so you can spend it on your pleasures” James 4:3 Having said that, as God’s children, we do have legitimate needs and in keeping with the whole of Scripture and what it teaches about prayer and the hindrances to prayer, etc., if we will ask according to God’s will, then we can know that as our Heavenly Father who knows and cares for our needs (our real need and not greed), He will answer according to His timing, purposes, and wisdom. Sometime thoughtfully read Hebrews 11 NIV and take note of the heroes of faith inducted into the divine hall of fame. Some conquered kingdoms, some faced imprisonment and death, some destitute and persecuted. Yet they were all commended for their faith. God declares the world is not worthy of the righteous. The Hebrews 11 believers did not receive all that was promised to them. Yet they endured. They stayed faithful. How is our endurance? I wonder how many prosperity-gospel-adherents would still be into Christianity if all that it offered was Jesus Christ. What is a Christian view of materialism? Merriam-Webster defines materialism as "a tendency to consider material possessions and physical comfort as more important than spiritual values." A preoccupation with anything that takes precedence over God and spiritual values is wrong for a Christian. And here’s some relevant hyperlinks to view at your convenience: What is a Christian view of materialism? (compellingtruth.org) Materialism and Christianity - Wikipedia Prosperity theology - Wikipedia Prosperity gospel | Definition, Origins, History, Theology, Criticism, & Facts | Britannica How American Life Is Impacted By The Prosperity Gospel : Throughline : NPR What Is the Prosperity Gospel? (tifwe.org) Prosperity Gospel | Topics | Christianity Today

Meanwhile, at the desk of The Way International’s CFO:

The Way International Headquarters: The pomp and circumstance that goes into shipping the PFAL class out to areas of concern, interest and need.

126. It cultivates excessive admiration for the PFAL class… ...some grads have been known to put it on par with the Bible.

Yeah, Cman a thought-provoking point! Sorry I’m late to the party – I’ve been busy catching up on some reading projects…when I saw your post, some stuff I had already published on another thread - Human Nature and the Fall , came to mind…I hope you don’t mind my being boring by quoting myself…uhm…but actually most my ‘reiterated’ posts are excerpts and hyperlinks from legitimate resources with my occasional comments on relevancy to the topic of what is death. What is death? I decided to explore human nature - not only in Biblical theology – but also through other legitimate disciplines. Besides appreciating what the Bible says about the makeup of humankind we also need to seek a comprehensive understanding of that which can undermine what appears to be the original design and purpose of humankind – especially by two of the biggest threats – sin and death. 15 The Lord God took the man and placed him in the orchard in Eden to care for it and to maintain it. 16 Then the Lord God commanded the man, “You may freely eat fruit from every tree of the orchard, 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will surely die.” Genesis 2: 15-17 NET Notes on verse 17 in my Net Bible: Second Beta Edition read: Heb. “dying you will die.” The imperfect verb form here has the nuance of the specific future because it is introduced with the temporal clause, “when you eat…you will die.” That certainty is underscored with the infinitive absolute. The Hebrew text (“dying you will die”) does not refer to two aspects of death (dying spiritually, you will then die physically). The construction simply emphasizes the certainty of death, however it is defined. Death is essentially separation. To die physically means separation from the land of the living, but not extinction. To die spiritually means to be separated from God. Both occur with sin, although the physical alienation is more gradual than instant, and the spiritual is immediate, although the effects of it continue the separation. End of excerpts ~ ~ ~ ~ Below are a few hyperlinks – food for thought on death: Wikipedia: death Plato Stanford Edu: death Thomas Aquinas Edu: Philosophy is a Preparation for Death: Why We Study the Phaedo Philosopher’s Mag com: Death and Its Concept Rethink Now org: what does the Bible say about death? Bible Study Tools: 10 Important Things the Bible Says about Death Chaim Ben Torah: Hebrew word study of death Bible Hub: Hebrew "maveth" Strong’s # 4194 Chabad Org: Jewish meaning of death Truth Watchers: does death mean separation? Bible Study Tools dictionary: death My Jewish Learning: defining death on Jewish Law Teaching the Word org: What Is the Biblical Definition of Death? Edited October 25, 2022 by T-Bone all typos must die ! From: Human nature + the Fall 10/25/2022 10:01 PM by T-Bone ~ ~ ~ ~ The following is a summary of some stuff about death that I read in The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia - Kindle Edition - location 45009ff – sorry no page numbers this is Kindle version …anyway, here’s some stuff I thought was noteworthy: Because death did not immediately befall Adam and Eve on the day of transgression, but took hundreds of years later the expression “for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die” (as it so reads in Gen. 2:17 KJV ) must be conceived in a wider sense, or the delay of death must be attributed to the entering-in of mercy Gen. 3:15 . However, the Bible Encyclopedia states Gen. 2:17 may be showing a close connection of violating God’s commandment and the resultant consequences thereby attaching to death a religious and ethical significance and makes the lives of humankind dependent on obedience to God. The religious-ethical nature of life and death is not only decidedly and clearly expressed in the early chapters of Genesis, but we find it is the fundamental thought in the entire Bible and forms an essential element in many of the declarations of salvation. The Encyclopedia goes on to say some theologians past and present have denied the spiritual significance of death and have separated the connection between ethical and physical life, usually base their opinions on passages that show death as a punishment for sin Rom. 5:12 Romans 6:23 I Cor. 15:21 …this opinion has some merit though – since we are made aware of the consequences of the weaknesses and frailty of human nature Job 14:1 Eccl. 3:20 …For the most part death is portrayed as something natural. What is the meaning of death? The Encyclopedia states that we are influenced by the Greek Platonic idea, that the body dies, yet the soul is immortal – but such an idea is utterly foreign to the ancient Hebrew concept of death – and is not found in the OT. The whole person dies, when in death the spirit Eccl. 12:7 or soul I Ki. 17:21 goes out of them. Death is not understood to be annihilation – as in complete extermination…utter destruction…obliterated, but rather deriving one of all that makes for life on earth. To the Israelites death meant separation from all that they loved – separation from God, and from His service, His law, His people, His land. The physical contrast between life and death gradually makes way for the moral and spiritual difference between life spent in the fear of the Lord, and a life in the service of sin. Edited October 28, 2022 by T-Bone rebellious editor says: Typos thou art and unto typos thou shalt return Human nature + the fall 10/28/2022 11:21 AM by T-Bone ~ ~ ~ ~ Considering your question, “are the dead alive now?” check out Revelation 9: When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?” Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters, were killed just as they had been. Revelation 6:9-11 NIV There’s quite a number of things to unpack in these verses – and I don’t pretend to be qualified to do that – but I will say the two of the most fascinating issues to wrestle with here are the rich symbolism and biblical terminology ("soul" & "spirit")… …To briefly digress back to my Human Nature thread, I did a study of soul and spirit and found the biblical writers used the two words interchangeably – see my posts here , here , and here … The other thing - the imagery or symbolism of “under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained” if not to be taken literally can express or represent deeper meanings or themes that are immaterial, ideal, or intangible. Symbolism can vary depending on the context, culture, or personal perspective of the user or viewer of the symbols. Both the NIV Cultural Backgrounds Study Bible page 2234 and the NIV Biblical Theology Study Bible page 2289 say similar things about Rev. 6:9-11 : this was a common Biblical plea for God’s swift intervention (e.g. Ps. 6:3; 35:17; 79:5; 80:4; Hab. 1:2; Zec. 1:12) and in Jewish apocalyptic traditions, the righteous continued crying for vindication until the judgement; in one source- possibly later than the book of Revelation – the righteous ask, “How long?” and an archangel responds, “Until your number is complete”, 4 Ezra 4:33-37. The OT sacrificial imagery recalls the altar of incense or the altar of burnt offering (Lev. 4:7) – referring to Christian martyrs Revelation 5:9 , Revelation 18:24 , and Revelation 20:4 ~ ~ ~ ~ Let me be clear on Revelation 6 – to me it’s unclear on how to interpret Rev. 6 in light of your question. I’m thinking any otherworldly narratives in the Bible are not there to portray with scientific precision the metaphysical realm – so I wouldn’t use Rev. 6 as proof the dead are alive now. To me it’s the deeper meaning that it gives to Christians who make the ultimate sacrifice… …and for what it’s worth – my opinion on the topic is that the dead are alive now – how, in what form, and what relevancy it has to the living - I don’t know.

perceptions are not just for navigating the physical world. Besides being aware of something through the senses, it also involves mental processing “ what does that STOP sign mean?… what does that red traffic light mean?…what does all the debris, trees, vehicles, fences, and roofs blowing around mean?” Perception in psychology is defined as the analysis of sensory information within the brain. Through perception we obtain a description of our ‘surroundings’ (physical and conceptual - - beliefs - the mental map of how the world works) and what they mean…fyi - they’re not always accurate. Our beliefs help us make sense of the world. From what I’ve read online, some experts think our beliefs are somewhat like a software program always running in the background as we take in information and examine its source – checking for compatibility or conflicts with our existing beliefs. Our beliefs help form and/or modify a mental model for understanding the world, our self and others. Beliefs / perceptions may help in basic survival - but your argument is too vague in my opinion. Con artists are adept at misrepresentation - like giving a false or misleading account of some event or the nature of something. Buying into a cult-leader’s bull$hit is not what I call surviving. BUT escaping a harmful and controlling cult and developing cognitive skills would help one become a cult-survivor. Harmful and controlling pseudo-Christian cult-leaders like wierwille twist Scripture and logic to MANIPULATE and RESTRICT our choices. In that regard I might in a limited sense agree in reference to the PFAL Kool-Aid with your statement “the ONLY real modifications that I am proposing for free will is that we don't have AS MUCH of it as we'd like to believe”. That is the ‘great’ trick wierwille pulls in PFAL with his screwy misinterpretation of II Peter 1:20 NIV Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation of things. Though the verse is talking about the ORIGIN of Scripture, wierwille taught it had to do with the interpretation of Scripture - and in his delusional absolute thinking he said verse 20 meant there was no interpretation possible or Scripture must interpret itself. Thus wierwille limited our options - in that sense for all practical purposes we don’t have as much a freedom of choice because wierwille excluded the choices of appropriate hermeneutics and legitimate scholarly resources. True freedom is making an informed choice - when all options are on the table - and NOT being tricked by being given only two choices - when there are actually more than 2 options available! As far as the rest of your post: “and it is not instantly available on demand. It sometimes takes repeated efforts before a free decision is made. Like a muscle it can get stronger or weaker with time”. Your statement is confusing and doesn’t seem to fit a theory of free will…maybe you’re thinking of cognitive skills. I think the typical PFAL grad lets their cognitive skills atrophy and instead learns to trust wierwille’s opinions and influence…this is all just my opinions of course…have a nice day.