T-Bone

Hey Mom, check out my new robot

Curious to see if the cook’s claim of having a cast iron butt was true, Commander Adams had Chief Quinn activate the ginormous electromagnet

As I mentioned on another thread - here – “I’ve NEVER said wierwille was just a con artist AND NOTHING ELSE. There’s MANY POSTS on Grease Spot where I’ve listed how MULTI-TALENTED he was. He was not JUST a con artist but also an unabashed plagiarist, sexual predator, malignant narcissist, megalomaniac, pathological liar, a poser, a harmful and controlling cult-leader, a voracious wolf in sheep’s clothing, a mean-drunk-Drambuie-guzzler with delusions of grandeur - obviously the man had a lot of issues - I'm just mentioning the ones I know about.”

The devil does not know when Christ is coming back – but WHY THE antichrist hasn’t stepped up to the plate yet is because of “the restrainer” mentioned in II Thessalonians 2:6,7 NKJV And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. On page 2163 of The NIV Biblical Theology Study Bible says many attempts have been made to solve the riddle of the restrainer – to identify the thing and person that Paul refers to in both impersonal v.6 and personal v.7: 1. The Roman Empire and the Roman emperor 2. The principle of law and order and the political leaders in general 3. The proclamation of the gospel and Paul. 4. The presence of the church and the Holy Spirit 5. The power of evil and Satan 6. The false prophecy and the false prophet 7. The activity and person of the archangel Michael. Personally, I discount points 5 & 6 – because what I know of Scripture ( Mark 3: 22-27 ) the devil and his minions would not frustrate or sabotage their own diabolical plans. I was surprised to read of point 7 – the archangel Michael’s restraining effort – but The NIV Biblical Theology Study Bible says that though it’s not widely held it is strongly supported by allusions to Daniel chapters 10 - 12 where Michael, the patron angel of God’s people is said to withstand (or restrain) the evil angels. I lean toward point 4 – the church and the Holy Spirit – but I put more stock in it being primarily the Holy Spirit – because of the syntax of II Thess. 2:7 and that it must ultimately be divinely supernatural – i.e., God’s power that holds back Satan so that the Antichrist would only be revealed at God’s appointed time and no sooner. The word taken is genetai in the Greek text ( see Greek text of II Thessalonians 2:7 and Greek word genetai from Strong’s # 1096 ) and the verb form means the subject - the restrainer - is doing the action. According to D. E. Hiebert on page 207 of his The Thessalonian Epistles a Commentary that reflects a voluntary act on the part of the restrainer. And on page 421 of R.C.H. Lenski's Commentary on the New Testament Interpretation of St Paul's Epistle to Colossians, Thessalonians, Timothy, Titus and Philemon , Lenski says it is better read as “to get out of the way”. In other words, the Holy Spirit is going to VOLUNTARILY move out of the way – He is NOT going to be taken out of the way. This idea of it being “the restrainer’s” OWN CHOICE …WITHOUT BEING ASKED…ON ONE’S OWN INITIATIVE is reflected in the New Living Translation : II Thessalonians 2:7 “For this lawlessness is already at work secretly, and it will remain secret until the one who is holding it back steps out of the way.” In summary, The Antichrist (whoever that will be) cannot step up to the plate yet - though many have been chomping at the bit to do so… …ignorance of Christ’s timetable or lack of opportunity is not what’s stopping them… it’s BECAUSE of divine intervention - HOWEVER GOD does that !

Very thoughtful posts, Rocky! And I would be very interested in reading a memoir by you.

Hangus Frank and his lab partner Bheire Stein were attending the University of Ingolstadt in Bavaria. The professor said to set up a project to study and describe the properties of quantum mechanics – but they thought he said wampum mechanics. They worked for months on end traveling to coastal towns of the Netherlands collecting beautiful seashells and hand fashioning them into beads for use as both currency and jewelry. Of course, on the first day of project reviews they were expelled immediately from the university, all because of a simple misunderstanding of a lab assignment. Not to be undone by this critical rejection, they had the presence of mind to use the wampum from their project for tuition to a degree-mill-institute and were soon awarded - sight unseen and no questions asked - the title of doctor. Doctors Frank and Stein were now convinced that this wampum thing was an untapped resource. Doctor Stein had a hunch that shoes made from wampum could walk on water. The shoes were huge and looked like flatboat barges – which further helped to suggest the idea of floating on water…and now you know the rest of the story.

Say, Mac – do you have the latest Way Magazine?

I think you’re mistaken my good fellow. Watson and I are way corps six…and you haven’t even taken the Advanced Class yet… ...so no – we don’t have to chip in for class refreshments.

All month you’ve been saying how you've been believing to have the money for the class. Now you’re saying you’re overdue on paying rent. Does your landlord even know how important this class is?

Wait a minute. The other day you told me I looked cool in this hat. Why did you change your tune?

Hello. We’re with the Any Old Way Ministry, and in no particular order we haphazardly read stuff out of the Bible. Mind if we come in and share the greatness of aimless.

Want to get blessed? Sponsor me in the way corps and it will be like God opening up the slot machines of heaven.

I don’t believe it. I brought her to Twig, but Matthew is trying to sign her up for the class.

Kudos to you Oldiesman! I found what I think was a related story in the Poughkeepsie Journal and took note of what the senator said - “She said in the statement that she strongly believes “in a government that is open and transparent. However, confronted with the scenario we faced last evening, I did not want to put my constituents in the position to be bullied or intimidated.” I’m of the opinion this first amendment auditor thing is a great idea for leveling the playing field. I reinterpret the senator’s wish to eliminate bullying and intimidation of constituents as actually tipping her hand - as if to say “as your leaders we really prefer to keep our advantage…no bullying and intimidation going on here. There’s nothing to see…the shows over folks.”

Hopefully not too off-topic And hopefully a cure for the common cold cultic mindset Hey, Nathan_Jr with your mentioning of hermeneutics I thought I’d mention an author you might enjoy – if you haven’t read anything by him already – his name is Anthony Thiselton and he “…is an English Anglican priest, theologian, and academic. He has written a number of books and articles on a range of topics in Christian theology, biblical studies, and the philosophy of religion…His main published work has been in the areas of hermeneutics (especially hermeneutical theory and its relationship to biblical interpretation), Christian doctrine (including eschatology and pneumatology), and biblical studies, in particular with two substantial commentaries on 1 Corinthians. He is unusual in academic theology for publishing research-level works across such a broad range of topics…” from Wiki - Anthony Thiselton Here's a description of one of his books on Amazon: “Anthony Thiselton here brings together his encyclopedic knowledge of hermeneutics and his nearly four decades of teaching on the subject to provide a splendid interdisciplinary textbook. After a thorough historical overview of hermeneutics, Thiselton moves into modern times with extensive analysis of scholarship from the mid-twentieth century, including liberation and feminist theologies, reader-response and reception theory, and postmodernism. No other text on hermeneutics covers the range of writers and subjects discussed in Thiselton’s Hermeneutics.” From Hermeneutics: An Introduction Kindle Edition I have a number of his books and I’m currently reading Thiselton on Hermeneutics Collected Works with New Essays . Sometimes I come across something that is thought-provoking and reminds me once again of the narrowminded TWI-mindset I was trapped in. I remember an old Sunday Night Teaching tape of wierwille saying we’re to be masters of the word – that may even have been in the title of the tape…Please bear with me for a sec, cuz I’ll come back to wierwille’s delusional self-importance and self-assumed authority OVER the Bible, sex, and anything else in life. What’s interesting in Thiselton’s book is it does more than just get into the nuts and bolts of hermeneutics (such as syntax, Biblical languages, literary genres, etc.) he also gets into theory and philosophy of hermeneutics and besides offering his own ideas he also references others … One of them is Emilio Betti ( 1890 to 1968) who was an Italian jurist, Roman Law scholar, philosopher and theologian. He is best known for his contributions to hermeneutics, part of a broad interest in interpretation. Betti said “Nothing is of greater importance to humankind than living in mutual understanding with one’s fellow human beings…” and that it calls for the ethical virtues of patience, tolerance, openness, and respect for the other person. Another thing that Thiselton points out in Betti’s work is that he attacked the self-centeredness of an epistemological tradition that takes the self as its starting-point and its center. In my humble opinion that describes wierwille’s theory of knowledge to a T , especially with regard to his dubious methods, self-assuming validity, biases, salacious topics, and phallocentric-creepiness to boot ! Another fascinating person Thiselton refers to is Friedrich Schleiermacher ( 1768 to 1834 ) a German Reformed theologian, philosopher, and biblical scholar known for his attempt to reconcile the criticisms of the Enlightenment with traditional Protestant Christianity. He also became influential in the evolution of higher criticism, and his work forms part of the foundation of the modern field of hermeneutics…and from Schleiermacher onwards the goal of hermeneutics has been that of LISTENING to “the other” , rather than seeking mastery of “objects” to know “on my terms”. Another of Schleiermacher’s pithy observations was “in the interpretation it is essential that one be able to step out of one’s own frame of mind into that of the author.” As a former-huge-wierwille-fan who bought into wierwille’s bull$hit of “mastering the word” Schleiermacher’s pearls of wisdom hit me right between the eyes! I’ve come to believe an essential aspect of Bible study is to read for the author’s intended meaning – try to understand passages from the author’s perspective and not my own. ~ ~ ~ ~ I had debated whether I should say anything about his works on this thread “Christian Family and Sex” for fear of derailing it – or just out of respect for the original intent of the person who started this thread…but the more I thought about it, the more I thought about the corrective element of Grease Spot Café that seems to permeate this website – which for want of a better description seems to be for me like something of a godly-design to correct or counteract the harmful and undesirable theory and practice of The Way International…Sometimes I’ve thought of a metaphor for TWI as if it were a man-made structure picturing it as a closed system of stifling proportions that does not allow transfer of matter or energy in or out of the system…my inner sci-fi fan often thinks of it as a supermassive black hole . Perhaps some folks come here and see everything as an either/or choice - of either TWI’s way or the Grease Spot way…but that’s a false dichotomy…I feel Grease Spot blows to smithereens ( via the Socratic method ) the erroneous premise that mistakenly limits what options are available when analyzing TWI’s theory and practice. I’m not saying everything is wrong in TWI’s “stuff” – but as a survivor of a harmful and controlling cult, I believe everything about TWI is suspect – because of the negative consequences I’ve experienced and observed… …I think we could drive ourselves crazy trying to figure out the intentions or what motivates harmful and controlling cult-leaders…But we’re not God…we’re not mind-readers…as the old proverb goes “the road to hell is paved with good intentions” - wrong or evil actions are often undertaken with good intentions...and there’s another variation - good intentions when acted upon may have unintended consequences…and what are intentions anyway? They are merely guiding principles for our thoughts, attitudes, choices, and actions. Usually, our intentions make us feel good about the beliefs we have. But intentions become irrelevant if they are not aligned with actions. I have been coming to Grease Spot since 2006 and one of the most noteworthy things about this website is that for the most part posters in relating their stories, ideas, and opinions, have usually focused – NOT on intentions or motives – but on actions, things that were said and done, observations, experiences, events, situations, and practical consequences…I really like that about Grease Spot - it causes me - and probably a lot of other folks - to look at how well the publicly stated intentions and goals of TWI align with Christian ideology. It's difficult to resist the temptation to ponder WHY wierwille was so keen on pushing his depraved views of Christian family and sex. In the war for my soul, it’s like trying to figure out what is the objective of my enemy. That’s where I need to fortify my defenses. The genius strategy of wierwille was that it was an inside job. A war crime committed with the assistance of a person living on the premises where it occurred – me ! Absorbing wierwille’s sick ideology sabotaged my cognitive skills. My wife and I were talking the other night about some of the stuff wierwille and LCM would say and do when we were in-residence training...and how much we dodged a bullet leaving TWI when we did. As a guy, I never fooled around on my wife…but who knows…if we had continued in TWI as way corps grads – how long would it take for all the toxic and depraved essence of wierwille’s ideology to really sink in? “Anything done in the love of God is okay ” ...Yikes - that attitude is playing with fire !!!!!!!!!!!! I believe Jesus Christ set forth the two highest priorities for his followers in Matthew 22: 37 – 40 ...to love God and love your neighbor as yourself…It seems obvious to me that how we treat people matters to God...so it makes sense that we should judge ourselves on how we actually deal with people rather than judging ourselves on why we think we serve God's people... evaluating our actions to see if they are in tune with our ideology…a great thread on dealing with that issue is Were we taught to be jerks in TWI ? Well…it’s like a lot of things Grease Spotters

I don’t know about the videos Nathan_Jr posted a link to – I watched less than 1 minute of it and couldn’t take anymore – but if you (Rocky) are talking about Adam and Eve and the Serpent and the trees part of CF&S class – I do remember a section of that class which in my opinion was wierwille’s piece de resistance of promiscuity…in one of his most bizarre and twisted interpretations of Genesis 3 saying the original sin was masturbation. wierwille elaborated on the imagery of fruit in the midst of the garden and tree of knowledge of good and evil as being an allusion to genitalia and especially the penis – and I vaguely remember him referring to a healing in the gospels where as the person’s sight was being restored the person said they see men walking as trees. I'm embarrassed to admit in my cult-daze it all made sense to me …funny - if you believe the original sin was Adam and Eve masturbating – it puts Genesis 3:22 in a whole new light: And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.” ...also makes me think of that old phrase 'one hand doesn't know what the other one is doing'. And now it’s all coming together - wierwille did teach us to be jerks It is noteworthy just how malleable the Bible can be in the deceitful hands of someone leading a harmful and controlling cult…and talk about hiding a sexual predator in plain sight… What qualified wierwille to teach about the Bible, the Christian Family and sex? It’s about like asking Jeffrey Dahmer to teach a class on humanitarianism . Btw, Nathan, I don’t know if you’ve read this whole thread – but if not - let me point out 2 relevant posts on this point - there is a Dec. 3rd, 2017, post by Don’t Worry Be Happy that mentions wierwille showing that bestiality video in a live CF&S Camp in 1973…a few posts before Don’t Worry’s – I mentioned wierwille showing the porno to our family corps – there were teens present !… here > Family corps with teens + video porn .

That’s odd – you posted a picture of his tombstone. Which reminds me of a riddle: What is this thing? The person who makes it doesn’t want it. The person who buys it doesn’t need it. The person using it doesn’t know it. Answer: a coffin ~ ~ ~ ~ I watched that clip of The Creature Wasn’t Nice – and think I’ll pass on watching the whole movie.

Just wanted to throw in my 2 cents on the “power corrupts” idea…power from internet definitions: the ability to do something or act in a particular way, especially as a faculty or quality; the capacity or ability to direct or influence the behavior of others or the course of events; physical strength and force exerted by something or someone. Relating to this thread – the power of a harmful and controlling cult like TWI was their ability to direct or influence the behavior of others or the course of events. It was an abuse of power…In the leadership…in the military style hierarchy power structure…and even in just the culture of TWI there was both overt and covert “channels” of control that facilitated me becoming the "best jerk" I could be…sometimes I was aware of how obvious it was…but not usually…like how the Moon has influence on our tides. I can look up to acknowledge the Moon is there – but whether or not I do – its influence on the tides is not diminished by me being unaware of its power. it’s been said knowledge is power (see Wikipedia: knowledge is power ) and among other things, that made me think of the internet. And that got me thinking of websites like TransChat, Waydale and Grease Spot Café – having information that empowered people to achieve something many cult-leaders may have thought impossible - – escape the clutches of a harmful and controlling cult. But knowledge as power can be a double-edged sword, in that it can be abused – the glut of disinformation – (a subset of propaganda…which is intended to cause harm) and misinformation which falls under the classification of free speech (no harm was intended) on the internet and social media. Below is something I found on “power corrupts”: What's the meaning of the phrase 'Power corrupts; absolute power corrupts absolutely'? The proverbial saying 'power corrupts; absolute power corrupts absolutely' conveys the opinion that, as a person's power increases, their moral sense diminishes. Origin - the short version: "Absolute power corrupts absolutely" is the best known quotation of the 19th century British politician Lord Acton. He borrowed the idea from several other writers who had previously expressed the same thought in different words. Origin – the full story: Absolute monarchies are those in which all power is given to or, as is more often the case, taken by, the monarch. Examples of absolute power having a corrupting influence are Roman emperors (who declared themselves gods) and Napoleon Bonaparte (who declared himself an emperor)… …"Absolute power corrupts absolutely" arose as part of a quotation by the expansively named and impressively hirsute John Emerich Edward Dalberg Acton, first Baron Acton (1834–1902). The historian and moralist, who was otherwise known simply as Lord Acton, expressed this opinion in a letter to Bishop Mandell Creighton in 1887: "Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Great men are almost always bad men." The text is a favourite of collectors of quotations and is always included in anthologies. If you are looking for the exact "power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely" wording, then Acton is your man. He coined the phrase but he didn't invent the idea; quotations very like it had been uttered by several authors well before 1887. Primary amongst them was another English politician with no shortage of names - William Pitt the Elder, Earl of Chatham and British Prime Minister from 1766 to 1778. Pitt said something similar in a speech to the UK House of Lords in 1770: "Unlimited power is apt to corrupt the minds of those who possess it" …Acton is likely to have taken his lead from the writings of the French republican poet and politician, again a generously titled individual - Alphonse Marie Louis de Prat de Lamartine. An English translation of Lamartine's essay France and England: a Vision of the Future was published in London in 1848 and included this text. It is not only the slave or serf who is ameliorated in becoming free. The master himself did not gain less in every point of view, for absolute power corrupts the best natures. Whether it is Lamartine or his anonymous English translator who can claim to have coined 'absolute power corrupts' we can't be sure. What we can be sure about is that it came before Lord Acton's more famous version. Whether Acton was aware of Lamartine's essay we can't now tell. Conclusion: "Absolute power corrupts absolutely" is one of the proverbial sayings that seems to be proved correct by experience of people's actual behaviour. From: Phrases.org.uk: absolute power corrupts absolutely ~ ~ ~ ~ To repeat a key phrase from the above excerpt “The proverbial saying 'power corrupts; absolute power corrupts absolutely' conveys the opinion that, as a person's power increases, their moral sense diminishes” got me thinking - not just about cult-leaders but also cult-followers and the mix of the human condition and the influence of a cult. Yes, in TWI we were taught to be jerks…but to what degree we each individually became a jerk probably depended on a number of things – one’s individual psychological make up, social needs, ambitions, etc.…as I expressed in an earlier post, I tended to be a real jerk to anyone who wasn’t interested in PFAL or wasn’t keen on TWI’s current agenda – which on the TWI- values scale is small potatoes – even though it violates the two great commandments big time (God's values scale) …but for someone who is very ambitious and really likes to bully and control others, hooking up with TWI was like a marriage made in heaven.

Thanks for posting that, Bolshevik…and of course I had to look up why “let ‘er rip” was on his tombstone…did some online digging and found this: It was a sad day last year when Airplane and Naked Gun mastermind Leslie Nielsen passed away on November 28, 2010, but as a final gesture to his silly attitude towards life and his love for fart jokes it looks like he left us one last reminder of his love for life. On Nielsen's tombstone which was recently revealed he had the words "Let 'er Rip" etched for everyone to see. Nielsen when on the set of his movies and even when off the set loved to tell fart jokes and use whoopee cushions as much as possible so it seems just right that he would leave this world with one last permanent fart joke. But let's be honest, his tombstone isn't just about a final fart joke, but rather a statement to have fun with life and to not let it hold you down...actually it's probably just a final fart joke, just the way Nielsen wanted it. From: Inquisitr: Leslie Nielsen Had Fart Joke Etched Into His Tombstone And here’s another thread tie-in…Leslie Nielsen was also in the film Forbidden Planet…small universe isn’t it. Another Leslie Nielsen “connection” is that I always thought his face reminded me a lot of my father-in-law…and Tonto agrees…and of further interest is that she likes fart jokes too…coincidence? Or another manifestation of cosmic consciousness?

I’ve put Bittersweet and Power Paradox on my reading list – thanks for mentioning those again, Rocky! …also put on list one you mentioned way earlier – Atlas of the Heart…and I need to take advantage of the local library…Tonto bugs me occasionally to check out the library instead of buying more books...that's when I rationalize and tell her but they're on Kindle and don't take up much room...but I do see her point.

I just want to fess up about the uncomfortable fit I forced myself into regarding TWI’s anti-LBGTQ stance. I have always identified myself as heterosexual but never had an issue over that stuff until I joined TWI… …and at the time, being an active musician and attending art school I had a live and let live attitude toward everyone and actually liked being surrounded by diversity. People different than me are a great inspiration since I tend to think I live a boring life of sameness. This is probably a confirmation bias I have – but I feel like artsy people tend to have a long suit in openness. “…A person's tendency to be either open or closed to experience are likely influenced by both genetics and experience. In psychology, this is often known as the nature or nurture debate. The nature side of the debate argues that certain psychological tendencies are largely caused by heritable factors, while the nurture side of the debate suggests that experience and environmental factors play the most pivotal role… Common Characteristics of Openness… People who are high in this trait are more likely to seek out new experiences. They enjoy things that are new, different, and surprising. They are also more likely to pay attention to their feelings and inner experiences... People who are high in openness tend to have many of the following characteristics: Creative Intelligent and knowledgeable Give great attention to mental imagery Interested in new things Enjoys hearing new ideas Likes thinking about abstract concepts Usually more liberal and open to diversity Interested in artistic endeavors Adventurous From: Very Well Mind website: how openness influences your behavior Kinda odd – for a ministry that bragged about having the power to open doors – TWI seemed to have a long suit in closing a lot of doors...I learned to close down my insides...to clam up...ignoring my feelings and inner experiences. So anyway – the more I got involved in TWI – the more I felt a subliminal pressure to remove any leeway of choices in social contacts…be a lot stricter - I guess - on who I associated with or who I let influence me…it was stifling…and parallels the overreach of TWI when it comes to my taste in music. I loved everything from hard rock, blues, soul, rhythm and blues, jazz, jazz-rock fusion, classical, pop, country - but during my time in TWI, I developed into a conflicted music lover...not that I was forced to put my muse on a leash – but to feel accepted by upper TWI-leadership, I suppressed…or rather ignored my preferences…I have a distinct memory of the time Don wierwille sat in the Rome City Chapel listening to our in-residence band practice a few ministry covers and some original stuff too. And later when we were wrapping things up - I remember his body language, facial expressions and tone of voice that seemed to take the wind out of my sails – with comments like something to the effect of “there’s so many musicians that want to perform in this ministry – and as corps we’ve got to be the best of the best ... every musician needs to learn how to read music…” As a self-taught musician I’ve always had self-esteem issues anyway over my wooden ear and never learning to read music. Was this suppose to be a pep talk? In general I think there was something subliminally present to get me to feel like I was never good enough during my entire time in-residence. Maybe it was the cumulative effect of all the brow-beatings, public shamings , pontificating leaders, moving the goal posts, sleep deprivation, malnutrition, and PFAL being driven into my head morning noon and night. Speaking of the 2nd great commandment. I loved my “neighbors” who were diverse – who influenced me growing up – all those genres I mentioned above – I loved to emulate them! I loved my neighbor as I love myself. I was pretty good for a self-taught bass player with a wooden ear. I would have such a deep sense of satisfaction when I could figure out the bass line of a tune – and I would be absolutely ecstatic when I got to the point I could improvise from that…have fun with it creating my own riffs - holy crap - I really learned something and I created something!!!! the prejudices of TWI were infecting my muse. I remember a teaching by someone in way productions likening a worldly musician to a tractor-trailer driver. He doesn’t really care what he’s hauling (meaning the message, the sentiment, the feelings) cuz he just likes to drive the big rigs (perform his music). But we were taught that TWI-musicians were special - we were hauling around a precious cargo - supposedly THE WORD of God and even just the music inspired godly feelings. What presumptuous tantalizing bull$hit! You know – just in general one of the biggest areas of belief or practice that I now see as contrary to the two greatest commandments was the way I put a higher value on wierwille / PFAL than on what people actually needed…I simply ignored what compassion for a fellow human being would compel me to do! It didn’t matter how down in the dumps somebody was or what their situation was – if they didn’t show any real interest in taking PFAL I dropped them like a hot potato. For 12 years I learned the fine art of putting TWI’s agenda ahead of God’s agenda (the 2 great commandments). Man, what a jerk I was!

I’ll say !!!!! I think I was probably about seven years old when I saw Forbidden Planet for the first time …and that’s when I fell in love with sci-fi…and Anne Francis…I also remember her on TV as Honey West.

Johniam, don’t flatter yourself. You make it sound like it’s a personal attack…Here you go again with the tu quoque fallacy (the ever accusing "you also" fallacy) for the sake of repetition it’s a type of ad hominem argument in which an accused person turns an allegation back on his or her accuser, thus creating a logical fallacy. If I were you I wouldn’t make an announcement like “Makes me think I must have something right” in a doctrinal discussion – some folks might think you’re smoking crack. What is credibility? Here’s a few online definitions and synonyms: credibility - the quality of being trusted and believed in; the quality of being convincing or believable; SIMILAR WORDS: trustworthiness, reliability, dependability, integrity. Now let me ask you some simple questions, Johniam. How or WHY do you think someone is considered credible or trustworthy? Do you think being trustworthy is an entitlement? How does one gain the trust of another? Is trust freely given – or is trust earned? How is trust built between two or more people? Do you think trust is reactive and measurable? In my humble opinion – and I could be wrong - building trust happens slowly over time, like building up a savings account…here’s an unsettling concept…some folks may assume they’ve amassed quite a savings account of trust – but it could be mostly unreliable counterfeit currency – and there’s a lot of folks out there who are sharp enough not to accept counterfeit stuff…like the pseudo-knowledge that wierwille promoted as truth...many Grease Spotters have survived the disappointment over wierwille’s duplicity and cockamamie teachings. So, it should not be surprising to any diehard-wierwille-fans that there will be pushback in doctrinal discussions anytime a diehard-wierwille-fan will extoll the greatness of wierwille or reference one of his dubious and untenable doctrines. You referenced my post - this one on June 28th - in your quote - and for the sake of clarity and accuracy I will repost it – with attributions and time-stamps added for clarity and context – so it’s as follows – including your post that I was commenting about; please reread it and I invite you and other Grease Spotters to review it as well – and afterwards please point out to me where I attacked YOU PERSONALLY…When folks protest over Grease Spotters speaking derogatively of wierwille I am tempted to think they take it as a personal slight – as if it was being done deliberately to upset them... What I fail to understand is the values scale of some folks – I’m not saying they’re wrong...maybe just out of whack – contradictory… "Values scales are psychological inventories used to determine the values that people endorse in their lives. They facilitate the understanding of both work and general values that individuals uphold. In addition, they assess the importance of each value in people's lives and how the individual strives toward fulfillment through work and other life roles, such as parenting. Most scales have been normalized and can therefore be used cross-culturally for vocational, marketing, and counseling purposes, yielding unbiased results. Psychologists, political scientists, economists, and others interested in defining values, use values scales to determine what people value, and to evaluate the ultimate function or purpose of values." From values scale what seems contradictory to me is that it appears some folks place a higher value on what wierwille said about the Bible, rather than a passage from the Bible that is antithetical to what wierwille said. The reason I think they place a higher value on what wierwille said is because they dodge, deflect or ignore any incompatible Bible passages or for that matter any opposing ideas that have merit from other Grease Spotters in the discussion. ...I’m not perfect and I may have been a little rough in my wording but my intent was NOT to attack you personally but to challenge your CLAIMS – and in doing so I was giving YOU a CHANCE to EARN my TRUST - if only you would have provided specifics, metrics, surveys, Scriptures and logic to counter my argument and support your claims. …another thing –actually a really huge thing that seems to have escaped your notice is that the bulk of my post was challenging wierwille’s crazy mish mash of fundamentalism, spiritualism and Gnosticism tied up in his teaching on “incorruptible seed”. And to overstate the obvious – I used an ADULT approach to challenge you – I disputed wierwille’s literal interpretation of I Peter 1:23 “incorruptible seed” by referencing the immediate context and a remoter context of Matthew 13 on the Sower and the seed to show that “incorruptible seed” is more likely referring to the word of God, I further argued support to my position from concepts, logic and a reference to a reputable commentary on I Peter 1:23……anyway here it is in between the green asterisks: * * * * * * On 6/22/2022 at 9:21 AM, johniam said: quote: If any still believe VPW is a man of God, enjoy it while you can. VPW is DEAD! 37 yrs and counting. I believe he had a one of a kind ministry. Back in 1980 or so, the coordinator of the music group I was in said that VP was the 7th "THE man of God" and that this was very significant. I never heard that same message from anybody else and I'm not sure what it even means, but I do believe that VPs combination of gift ministries was unique, not cookie cutter. Nobody has duplicated the respect and impact he got from his people. LCM acted like he had automatically earned that respect, but he did not. Chris Geer doesn't try to be the MOGFODAT; he just brokers classes and lets local leadership work without interference. He openly disagrees with more than 15 points of VPs doctrine. The fellowship I attend is very non invasive compared to twi even back in the "good old days". As for VP, I think his teaching of incorruptible seed brought much deliverance to much people. Many church people to this day live in fear that their salvation could be 'foreclosed upon' at any time. Nice to know that isn't true. King David is the only person in the bible who is actually called a man after God's own heart, yet when he did what he did to Uriah the Hittite, the bible says the thing David did had displeased the Lord. So it's possible to be a man after God's own heart and still have the capacity to displease the Lord. Same for us. (I assume most of you believe some of the things VP did displeased God) We can be sons of God and still displease the Lord. We're still born of incorruptible seed, we'll still be rewarded at the gathering together, same for VP. VPs ministry changed my life. From my first twig to the present day. I will definitely enjoy that while I can. = = = == = T-Bone Tuesday June 28th, 2022 12:35 AM: Your statements in bold red I believe he had a one of a kind ministry. Back in 1980 or so, the coordinator of the music group I was in said that VP was the 7th "THE man of God" and that this was very significant. in case you missed it – we tackled this dubious statement in the About the Way forum > here > Who were the supposed 7 "THE Man of Gods? ...care to join in the fun? As for VP, I think his teaching of incorruptible seed brought much deliverance to much people. Many church people to this day live in fear that their salvation could be 'foreclosed upon' at any time. Nice to know that isn't true… I have lots of questions on your statements: 1. Can you be more specific on what the “much deliverance” was? 2. Who are the “much people”? 3. How do YOU KNOW the NUMBER “church people” who – to this day lie in fear of losing their salvation? How did YOU quantify all that? Please elaborate what metrics you used, what surveys you conducted, and what churches these “church people” go to. 4. The internet definition of foreclosed is to take possession of a mortgaged property as a result of the mortgagor's failure to keep up their mortgage payments; to take away someone's power of redeeming (a mortgage) and take possession of the mortgaged property. How does that relate to salvation? I understand you’re speaking metaphorically – talking about salvation in a way that is not physically or financially applicable. But can you explain how fear of one’s salvation being foreclosed resembles repossession of something when a buyer defaults on payments? I’m not trying to be facetious – but didn’t Jesus Christ pay the price for our salvation? Or do you consider all what Jesus Christ did as only a down payment made for a salvation we’re buying on credit? Sounds confusing and trivializes all that Christ accomplished. Is that something you heard wierwille say or did you come up with that inappropriate metaphor all on your o wn? 5. Nice to know that isn't true. What isn’t true? YOUR mischaracterization of salvation? 6. incorruptible seed… Do you interpret that as a LITERAL seed? If so, you’re following the wooden interpretation of wierwille. He made it out like it was actually a spiritual seed. But that is erroneous – for in the immediate context – the SAME verse even – it is a reference to the word of God. “For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God” (NIV) I’m tempted to think wierwille would get his hodge podge of ideologies mixed up - and his “ signature intuition” would shift gears from fundamentalism to spiritualism to Gnosticism in no particular order. Gnosticism has the idea spirit is spirit and flesh is flesh and never the twain shall meet. Gnosticism invites you to transcend to a higher plane through special knowledge. A key concept of Spiritualism is that there is more to life than what meets the senses - wierwille’s demonology is based on his speculations of the unseen world. Spiritualism is viewed as the bridge between the spiritual realm and our physical world. competing ideologies of fundamental ism, Gnosticism and spiritualism probably confused the hell out of wierwille in trying to formulate a coherent thought - so maybe his signature intuition i.e., whatever felt right - just cobbled it all together. Incorruptible seed from the spirt realm crosses over into a human body. The few commentaries I’ve read on I Peter 1:23 don’t even try to explain it as a literal second birth but as a beginning of a life destined for eternity. the Greek text of I Peter 1:23 indicates that the preposition “by” in I Peter 1:23 “by the word of God” is “dia” in the Greek Strong’s # 1223 and means through, on account of, because of…The new birth comes about through the direct action of the Holy Spirit (see Titus 3:5 ) but as indicated in I Peter 1:23 the word of God also plays an important role… Peter’s reference to the seed probably harkens back to the parable of the Sower and the seed in Matthew 13: 1- 23 …which seems to be more about the ground than the Sower in that Jesus is explaining the different reactions to hearing the word. It’s obvious in the parable that the differences lie in HOW people respond to the word – the distinctions are made by the differences in quantity of crop yield or even crop loss. The seed sown in all the soil types is the same – it’s the word of God…so WHY do YOU interpret the incorruptible seed of I Peter 1:23 as a literal seed? The context is obviously the word of God – as is the seed of Matthew 13. Did the Sower in Matthew 13 literally tear up little pieces of Old Testament scrolls and plant them in the ground? As Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers says of “incorruptible seed” …”That is, not of the seed of Abraham, but of the seed of God. This is the argument: “You must learn not to be selfish, or arrogant, as being of the chosen race, but to have a true brotherly feeling and earnest love for the Gentile converts, and for those who, like St. Paul, are specially working for the Gentiles, because your inheritance of the promised ‘salvation’ is grounded, not on your Abrahamic descent, but on your spiritual regeneration, in which matter the Gentile converts are your equals.” That this was the doctrine of St. Peter is certain from his speech at the Council of Jerusalem, “God put no difference between us and them, having purified their hearts by faith;” and again, “It is only through the favour of the Lord Jesus that we hope to be saved, in precisely the same manner as they” (Acts 15:9; Acts 15:11). (Comp., for the argument, 1John 5:1.) By the word of God.—“Seed,” in the beginning of the clause, is more literally the act of sowing, or engendering, which sowing is carried on “through the living and abiding word of God,” this “word of God” being the actual seed sown. The “seed” of all existence is the spoken Word of God, the expressed will and meaning of creative thought (Psalm 33:6); and so here, even when spoken mediately, through the lips of men (as explained in 1Peter 1:25), it is that which begets men afresh. God creates afresh, though men speak the creative word for Him, just as “it is He that hath made us,” although He does so through natural laws and human powers. The “Word of God” here is, no doubt, the preaching of the gospel, but especially, as it would seem, the preaching of the Resurrection (1Peter 1:3), or of the sufferings and glories of Messiah (1Peter 1:12), the “truth” of the last verse. The part taken by “the Word” in the sacrament of regeneration may be seen again in Ephesians 5:26 and James 1:18; in connection with the other sacrament we may also refer to John 6:63. “Incorruptible” (i.e., imperishable; see 1Peter 1:4; 1Peter 1:18) finds a more energetic paraphrase here in “living and abiding” (the words “for ever” not being part of the true text). The former epithet is a favourite with St. Peter (1Peter 1:3, 1Peter 2:4-5), and is perhaps borrowed from this place by the author to the Hebrews, in connection with the “word of God” (Hebrews 4:12). The epithets serve to prepare the way for the quotation.” end of excerpt from Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers Edited June 28 by T-Bone Undoubtedly the horrendous typos were born again of incorrigible word-seeds * * * * * * End of quoting my post from June 28th = = = = = I’m sorry if I’ve offended you personally – and perhaps “hissy fit” was a little harsh – but I’ll leave you with some online info on the term “hissy fit” – in my defense I will say that your response to my June 28th post seemed to be from anger and filled with unjustified criticism and juvenile off-the-wall remarks – and I thought my use of the term was fitting…and you know what they say, “if the hissy fit fits…” well anyway below are some online definitions of “hissy fit”: throw a hissy fit meaning To throw a tantrum. An outburst. A temperamental explosion. To show that one is disturbed and angry. Example Sentences: A hissy fit is not justified just to get someone to listen to you. You have to be more mature than that. She needs to discipline her children, they can’t just throw a hissy fit every time they cross the ice cream parlour. I threw a hissy fit when I learned that he is not going to come for the event even after promising to do so. No one should be allowed to throw hissy fits for such trivial things. The reason does not matter when you embarrass me in pubic by throwing hissy fits. The media these days have no real news to report so paparazzi follow celebrities around until they throw a hissy fit at them. Origin The origination of the phrase is speculated to be either from the term hysterical or the spluttering and hissing sound that an outburst causes. The literary origin comes from the 1934 US based publication titled ‘American Speech’ which explained the concept. The best and most popular usage is to describe the tantrums that celebrities throw which is speculated to have been first used by the Daily Mirror in 2004 towards the celebrity Sir Elton John. From: The Idioms: hissy fit And from the Urban Dictionary: noun. A sudden outburst of temper, often used to describe female anger at something trivial. Originally regional from American South. Thought to originate from contraction of "hysterical fit." She threw a hissy fit when she found out the last pair of shoes had been sold. Urban Dictionary: hissy fit Last one is a visual aid: Ellie Mae throwing a hissy fit on the way home from work = = = = = If it's any consolation to you, Johniam or even strictly in the spirit of fairness, you can charge me with having a hissy fit in this and any other post of mine. I'm an adult - I can take it...I'll probably agree with you whether or not I think I deserve it...I am a recovering a$$-hole with smart-a$$ tendencies so keep that in mind. So have at it all you want with attacking me over some imagined slights – but can you PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE occasionally inject a substantial portion of intelligent rebuttals to any of the SPECIFIC wierwille-ideology criticisms I have expressed on this thread…otherwise your cutting remarks will only continue to “make me think I must have something right” in my criticism of wierwille’s erroneous doctrine for you to dodge, deflect, avoid, and ignore the legitimate and detailed examination and assessment I have offered on this thread… One of my superpowers is that I am invulnerable to name-calling – and so I should warn you if you continue to pursue the path of a knock-down-drag-out-fight-by-name-calling-or-any-other-logical fallacy-brouhaha-in-order-to-dodge-deflect-avoid-and ignore-legitimate-detailed-examination-and-assessment-of-wierwille’s erroneous doctrines I have offered, you will more often than not shoot yourself in the foot...but I guess some folks enjoy the law of reversed efforts. The French psychologist, Émile Coué, defined the law of reversed effort and said the law of reversed effort exists because our conscious mind and our unconscious mind are often in conflict, and the unconscious mind wins. It’s what Alan Watts referred to as the Backwards Law. According to the law of reversed effort, when desire and imagination are in conflict, the imagination always wins. This law exists because our conscious mind and our unconscious mind are often in conflict, and the unconscious mind wins. Why? Because it is our protector and it is rarely rational. When the imagination and will power are in conflict, are antagonistic, it is always the imagination which wins, without any exception from: Life Hack.org: law of reversed effort As Captain America would say "I can do this all day". So don't think you wallowing in the throes of reversed efforts will discourage me from continuing to sort out the nonsense and fluff from the actual substance of this thread...it's a marathon, Dude. I consider it a personal challenge so see if my repetitive verbosity will outlast your dodge-and-deflect nonsense. ...I am serious about wanting to have an intelligent conversation! I’ll make it real simple for you: quote one point from my June 28th post where I argued that “incorruptible seed” was not to be taken literally as wierwille taught - and then state WHY you disagree with my position? What are the reason/reasons why you think “incorruptible seed “ in I Pet. 1:23 is definitely NOT a reference to the word of God? Oh and let me reveal some other superpowers…I ain’t super-smart – just super-curious…I ain’t super-narrowminded – just a super-fan of the Socratic method and love to unpack an idea or a belief of mine and that of others…I’m not a super-grammarian – just a super-verbose poster trying to be a gooder articulator of my thoughtness. till we meet again

Mr. Bolshevik, you leave me no choice…and I’m sorry I haven’t responded sooner…I just got caught up in the Pirates of the Caribbean marathon…have you seen those things?...Well, I’ve read your posts and I loved them and I wrote you this big sexy reply about the Millenium Fathom and I thought you would really dig it…but then you jumped ship…so dude, let’s get to it:

Which reminds me of one of the greatest maritime disasters based solely on an alternate fact solo. The tale of woe begins with the Millennium Fathom, the first cruise ship to be faith-powered, with a computer-designed hull made entirely of wishbones. Though the ship was built in Ohio, which is a doubly landlocked and lockbox state, the $hit builders managed to get the Millennium Fathom to the boondocks of somewhere to be held in abeyance until every cabin was booked. The commander of the ship was Captain Nemo who had recently received his captainship from a degree-granting-mill. For its maiden voyage ( after Captain Nemo had his way with her, of course) it would be a sports fan delight. The WOWweeWOW Travel Agency ran nationwide ads to invite any spirited athletes to compete on the high seas. It was billed as the largest multisport contingency to sail the four seas of the four corners of the flat earth. Sportsmen, sportswomen and even sportspersons of interest responded. There were little leagues, major leagues, bush leagues, contestants in leagues of their own, no justice no league, even legionnaires showed up because they were the same difference in a passenger manifest(ations). In a cruel and un-Jules-ual verne for the worse, the Imagineering Officer went overboard, and all were lost at sea. Disney made a movie about the Millennium Fathom’s oceanic disaster , 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea…now you know the rest of the story.