T-Bone

What about the following - looks like everyone at the same time: And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. ~ ~ ~ ~ your statement seems contradictory with the verses you quoted (see the following) - they indicate there is a sequence - thus time is a factor: The tomb of Jesus was empty…“in the likeness of his resurrection” - so, I was wondering – my mom & dad passed away and were cremated, their internment is at a memorial cemetery in vegas – and I had a brother-in-law who received a traditional burial in the cemetery near the family church. In light of your earlier posts indicating there's no time factor - and as a person dies, they are raised, so if I had their graves exhumed right now - would I find any remains? ~ ~ ~ ~ How are they different? “return” is come or go back to a place. “coming” is an arrival or approach. What’s the difference?

Floyd was always industrious. Starting at age 5 he began stockpiling Legos. By the time he was 45, he had built his own pickup from scratch.

The Pushmi-Pullyu Pickup

Heard over the Toronto Police Service radio band: Attention all units we have a report of a pickup doing donuts in the parking lot of Tim Hortons at 145 King Street West.

Closed-door meeting with a delinquent cheerful giver: I’m sorry guys, but I’ve had it with this money-grubbing penny-pinching two-bit ministry. How the hell do you get Old Testament tithing laws and a few New Testament accounts of collections taken up for the needy to mean in this day and time and hour I’m supposed to send fifteen percent of my income to some fat-cats in New Knoxville? Yeah…I remember it now…just like it was yesterday…when I signed up for PFAL, it said on the back of the green card the class increases prosperity. I thought it meant my prosperity – not the ministry’s.

You’re welcome, Mark. Btw, the picture wasn’t in reference to you but to the comment in the post before yours “both of you lean on these commentaries” – and the picture was more about me than you anyway…I do tend to lean a lot on commentaries and other reputable sources…I guess because theology isn’t my bag…and after a few Irish Coffees I probably act more like that guy…Moral of the story – don’t drink and post. FYI: The reason I posted it this morning instead of right after that lean on commentaries comment last night, is because last night I found the leaning drunk picture by Googling on my smartphone – but had technical difficulties inserting it into a post when I tried to use the Insert image from URL feature – but it wouldn’t take it. So, this morning I found the image from my laptop,

Rita had mastered the art of blowing smoke rings. She also likes to fumigate around her personal space to ward off barflies.

130. Handling anomalies during session 12 of PFAL. If you ask me, I think she was believing to get slain in the spirit.

129. PFAL has too much double-talk. A moment of clear thinking: In PFAL wierwille emphatically states there is a way to describe two groups that are different from each other – “all without exception” and “all without distinction”. That’s enough to make a thinking person go “huh?”

I realized I was a shallow person the first time I was beside myself, and no one else was there.

Leaving the Advanced Class Ready to take on the world

Politics is relative. For instance, take this guy. He would describe himself as leaning to the right. From where I am I’d say he’s leaning to the left.

Hi Cman, if you can get on Grease Spot Café, you should be able to Google those 2 questions – those are easy questions which most Bible students can easily handle. I Googled them anyway to prove a point and got some answers right away…so have at it! I also Googled this passage – even though I knew where it was from right off the bat. Also – not sure if you’re aware that this refers to something different than your first two questions (which is something I also knew already from personal studies - but see for yourself the 2 commentaries I quoted below) New International Version For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, get drunk at night. 1 Thessalonians 5:7 Bible Hub: Search, Read, Study the Bible in Many Languages (used above ) is really handy as well as BibleGateway.com: A searchable online Bible in over 150 versions and 50 languages. Also on Bible Hub you can click on commentaries – like I did for I Thess. 5:7 – and you’ll find some helpful explanations – like the couple I copied and pasted below: Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers (7) They that sleep. . . .--As the connection of sleep with night has already been sufficiently worked out, and is not touched upon again in 1Thessalonians 5:8, the first clause seems only to be inserted for the sake of bringing out the second, and to justify the sudden introduction of the words, "and be sober." It may thus be paraphrased: "I say, 'and be sober too,' for as they that sleep in the night, so they that be drunken are drunken in the night." It is implied that the streets even of heathen Thessalonica were seldom affronted with the common English spectacle of drunken men by daylight; while among the Jews it was proof positive of sobriety to say, "It is but the third hour of the day" (Acts 2:15). In St. Cyprian's time, Christians were known from other men because their breath smelt of wine in the early morning through attending the Blessed Sacrament (Epistle lxiii. 15): no heathens would have touched wine by that time. ~ ~ ~ ~ Pulpit Commentary Verse 7. - For; the reason of this exhortation. They that sleep, sleep in the night; and they that are drunken are drunken in the night. Here not to be taken in a metaphorical sense, but a simple statement of fact - what occurs in ordinary experience. The night is the season in which sleep and drunkenness usually occur; whereas the day is the season of watchfulness, sobriety, and work. Both heathen and Jews considered it as eminently disgraceful for a man to be seen drunken in the day-time. Hence, when the Jews accused the believers on the day of Pentecost with being filled with new wine, Peter answered, "We are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day" (Acts 2:15). End of excerpts - - from: 1 Thessalonians 5:7 commentaries ~ ~ ~ ~ You’re welcome!

Yes, it makes sense. I’m not that smart either – I’m always trying to unpack Bible stuff – there’s lots of overtones, hints, metaphors, associations, double meanings, disorienting space-time references in many passages. That’s why I like to check out reliable resources from people who have REAL expertise in the biblical languages, cultures, and theology. It’s not like anyone has it all together – but it doesn’t take a lot of work to examine legitimate sources to see what jibes with my basic understanding of Christianity – I’m no theologian or scholar – so I like things simple too – and the stuff is not repugnant to one’s cognitive skills like wierwille’s mishmash theology of PFAL. Take for instance your reference to Ephesians 2:6 NIV : And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus Page 2059 of the NIV Cultural Backgrounds Study Bible says this of Eph. 2:6 Many Jewish thinkers recognized that the righteous would reign in the coming world (Da.7:22, 27; Rev 3:21; 5:10). Here, however, believers have already begun to experience this victory. Specifically, they are enthroned with Christ above spiritual powers (1:20 – 23), hence are no longer bound by evil compelling them to sin (vv. 1 – 3). Many people feared spirits as well as the power of Fate through the stars; those exalted with Christ need not fear such powers. End of excerpt ~ ~ ~ ~ What I like about NIV Cultural Backgrounds Study Bible is the chance to sort of travel back in space and time and get an idea of the worldview the biblical writers had – once I have that it’s a matter of transposing some concepts to my world – how I see Eph. 2:6 applicable today is that it speaks to not just New Age, Astrology, and Fatalism stuff but as an ex-TWI-follower it counters wierwille’s fascination with demonology and fears of demons running and ruining my life.

That’s the challenge of trying to describe a very complex, problematic and charming cult-leader like wierwille - there’s not just one description that says it all. Usually in the Bible when someone has a life-dominating sin then they’ve earned the title – thus a pathological deceiver is called a liar, one who steals is called a thief. And since people are complicated beings – there’s nothing in the Bible saying you can’t have more than one life-dominating sin. I ain’t perfect. I’ve had a few life-dominating sins in my lifetime – even in TWI – that particular life-dominating sin was the pride I had for thinking I knew more about God and the Bible than anyone outside of TWI…shortly after I left TWI I got a little taste of the day of reckoning while I was shopping at the grocery store. Looking at the other shoppers – realizing for the first time… in a looooong time that I was no better than anyone else - - I hurried through my shopping holding back tears. Hey, I’m still a sinner – I have little bouts of temptations to lie, lust, seek revenge. I think I do pretty good not letting those ‘appealing things’ run and ruin my life. Been married 47 years – never cheated on my wife. I’m still somewhat of an a$$-hole but since I left TWI I no longer am a rising star a$$-hole Twig-coordinator Pharisee-wannabe. Now I just try to be a repentant a$$hole to wife, kids, friends, neighbors…I’m retired now – but in all of my work career I’ve never stole from work or exploited / abused others to get ahead. Excuse me for going on so much about myself on this thread – but believe it or not I do have a reason…or rather reasons – and here they are. I honestly think I am no better or worse than anyone else on Grease Spot Café – and there must be something in me that got damaged in my cult experience because I still have issues with low self-esteem and self-doubt. Low self-esteem – maybe from feeling I fell so short of that hollow renewed mind model we learned in TWI…I’ve always liked being sort of a people-pleaser – but in TWI that got taken advantage of big time and it seemed like I always disappointed upper leadership - maybe it was because they kept moving the goal post – and I often succumbed to their guilt trip tactics anyway - so I get that who am I to judge others vibe - even if wierwille manifested a cacophony of life-dominating sins. Self-doubt – sales as a career is not my thing, leadership and management are not for me either – you can’t be timid, introverted and unassertive – and that’s me Robert Petrie – sure I’m one ridiculously dapper dude. ~ ~ ~ ~ Any wierwille-sympathizers reading this please take note. This post is typical of what normal people do. This post is normal for what cult-survivors do. This ain’t politics folks! This is life skills 101 for the young and naïve who got suckered into a destructive and manipulating pseudo-Christian organization. keeping all that toxic cult mindset bottled up ain’t healthy. unpacking and sorting out the intellectual and emotional baggage is very helpful to one’s well-being. It’s normal to acknowledge the hurt. If you still hold wierwille in such high regard – then I challenge you on this – there might be something out of whack with your scale of values. So sorry - I'm not gonna get guilt-tripped every time I say something negative about you-know-who. The more I think about it, the more I think big wierwille fans need to recalibrate their powers of discernment. You see, big wierwille fans are using a reference point that is skewed - which is their beloved super-duper-hypocrite teachings on the love of God thinketh no evil, anything done in the love of God is okay...and it is by that standard they get all up in arms of anyone who dares to bring up any valid criticism of wierwille. Oh, we're not loving. Oh, we're not forgiving. Geesh - give me a break...if the media - hell - if the general public knew of all the hypocritical bull$hit wierwille got away with - you all would be laughed out of the country for defending such a hot mess. damn straight! At least I really tried to walk the talk when I was in TWI - and I think that’s true for a lot of the folks that I served , fellowshipped with and worked under. That’s way more than wierwille’s stage-act. Pharisees have a double standard. They hold all the peons like us to a squeaky clean and submissive rule of thumb. But the big dogs of Pharisee-Central get a free pass! They claim they love God and neighbor but they do as they full well please! wake up and smell the bull-$hit ! You know damn well if wierwille ever got wind of you exploiting, abusing, character assassinating, sexually molesting any other TWI-follower - - he’d get all holier-than-thou on your a$$…it’s okay for him but not for you. That’s the double standard! but you know - I think the hypocrisy of Pharisee-Central may have an attractant for those who already have proclivities to exploit, abuse, character assassinate , sexually molest others - like a moth drawn to the flame. People like that can smell opportunities a mile away. I was clueless to the wife-swapping that went on at Rome City campus because I was focused on trying to be the best little old TWI-believer that I could be. I was dumb enough to think PFAL was the gold standard of the Christian lifestyle. I thought wierwille was the real deal. I believed his 1942 audible promise from God story. ~ ~ ~ ~ Self-doubting-low-self-esteemer types get chewed up and spit out by harmful and controlling cults. You have no idea what emotional and intellectual turmoil I go through when we discuss the invisible idol that was embedded deep down inside. Reverential admiration…like idolatry is love. I had… …maybe I still have a slowly diminishing love-hate relationship with wierwille and LCM - there’s both very positive and very negative feelings. I have not been so deeply abused, exploited or molested like some here have – maybe that would make it easier to snub these weird feelings…I’ve never been divorced. But I imagine there’s a love-hate relationship on both sides. Leaving a cult – maybe it’s like that – I miss all the good people and good stuff I got out of it – but I hate all the bad $hit…when something so bad is so close to your heart it's gotta be harder than brain surgery to get it removed. I come to Grease Spot Café for a lot of reasons. Expose TWI. Promote freedom of thought. Encourage others to develop cognitive skills. Help and pray for others. Soak up the therapy. Have fun. Enjoy the company – I’m not alone on this unusual journey. Thanks for letting me get all sorts of vulnerable here…oh yeah, another selfish reason why I make myself vulnerable – I’m into developing meaningful and profound relationships with Grease Spotters. now it’s time for me to climb back into my Iron Man suit , which I got cheap at Syms Clothing Store ( “An educated consumer is our best customer.” – yes, that Syms Clothing) before they closed down. Okay I’m done! Go the mass has ended…thanks be to God!!!

1. So big deal – that’s what you believe. However, thus far - you have failed to prove “all the scriptures that are said to support the second coming theory actually support the idea that the dead are alive now”. Please provide the chapter and verse of all the scriptures that are said to support the second coming theory actually support the idea that the dead are alive now...just do that instead of TALKING about doing that. TALKING about doing that is BLUFFING. either put up or shut up...more on this in point 3 (at least wierwille tried ) 2. What do you mean when you say you are not bound by any doctrine? Doctrine is usually is a classification of beliefs or a body of teachings or instructions, taught principles or positions, as the essence of teachings in a given branch of knowledge or in a belief system…If you are not bound by such – can you explain what your beliefs are based upon? There is no wrong answer here - I'm just curious. When you said “especially the kindergarten type stuff that is very superficial” – could you please be specific. Not sure if you realize how condescending that sounds. And if you’re referring to some of the basic tenets of Christianity mentioned on this thread that YOU started - like death, the afterlife, being born again, the resurrection, the real existence of heaven and hell, of rewards and punishments – if you’re calling all that nursery school insignificant stuff, I am waiting for you to bring on the heavy stuff – and it would be appropriate if you’d provide some biblical evidence or reference some other LEGITIMATE source. I think that’s only fair! Since you seem to be challenging what others have presented here as nothing but pre-school trivial stuff, then the onus is on you to do better – so go ahead! Hey, you’re free to post a CSN&Y or U2 video – I like them both…at least this thread is entertaining so thanks! 3. I think it’s funny and pretentious on your part – to insinuate PFAL has clouded anyone’s clear thinking. At least in PFAL wierwille attempted to use Scripture and logic to make a case for his screwy doctrines. Now granted, wierwille twisted Scripture and used a lot of logical fallacies but hell – at least he tried to justify himself…you could at least try to make a rational presentation of why you think the dead are alive now. I asked you earlier what you meant by this statement…but I’m getting the idea you just wanted to use something from The Condescending Person’s Playbook and make like you’re superior to others. Oh well...zzzZZZZ ZZZzzz ...wake me when you've got something substantial 4. But you did admit it when you said “whatever born again means”…so you’re into presenting ideas, even when you seem to have no idea what the ideas are about …okay – I’m cool with that… please don’t take it personal when any Grease Spotters call out nonsense – we all get that from time to time - I get that a lot - - - so don't whine about it - - there’s one old timer here who often resorts to playing the victim card when his baloney is analyzed and found to be wanting substance. you asserting that being born again and the resurrection are very much related if not the very same thing - makes me think you have no respect for plain English and common sense. (checks the forum we’re in) – here, most folks usually offer up some logic and Scripture to support their claim…But I’m easy – it doesn’t matter to me if someone wants to go on and on about a personal philosophy. I thought the thread was about asking the question are the dead alive now? I wasn’t expecting day care for airheads…my bad. 5. as I said earlier - Jesus explained it the best in John 3.

Sounds more like you’re trying to describe reincarnation – and since you’ve admitted you don’t know what born again means, it seems you’re grabbing at straws , trying to assert something that lacks any credibility - - which is somewhat pointless in a doctrinal forum… I realize Grease Spot Café Doctrinal Forum isn’t exactly a highbrow platform for analysis – i.e., breaking down a complex topic into smaller parts in order to gain a better understanding of it, along with some creative synthesis – but most folks try to make a coherent case for their doctrinal dissertation… Whatever…maybe there’s still hope for this discussion. There’s probably no better definition of what born again means, than what Jesus said to Nicodemus: 1Now there was a Pharisee, a man named Nicodemus who was a member of the Jewish ruling council. 2He came to Jesus at night and said, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the signs you are doing if God were not with him.” 3Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again. a ” 4“How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!” 5Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. 6Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit b gives birth to spirit. 7You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You c must be born again.’ 8The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.” d 9“How can this be?” Nicodemus asked. 10“You are Israel’s teacher,” said Jesus, “and do you not understand these things? 11Very truly I tell you, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony. 12I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things? 13No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man. e 14Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, f 15that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.” g 16For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. 19This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. 21But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God. 22After this, Jesus and his disciples went out into the Judean countryside, where he spent some time with them, and baptized. 23Now John also was baptizing at Aenon near Salim, because there was plenty of water, and people were coming and being baptized. 24(This was before John was put in prison.) 25An argument developed between some of John’s disciples and a certain Jew over the matter of ceremonial washing. 26They came to John and said to him, “Rabbi, that man who was with you on the other side of the Jordan—the one you testified about—look, he is baptizing, and everyone is going to him.” 27To this John replied, “A person can receive only what is given them from heaven. 28You yourselves can testify that I said, ‘I am not the Messiah but am sent ahead of him.’ 29The bride belongs to the bridegroom. The friend who attends the bridegroom waits and listens for him, and is full of joy when he hears the bridegroom’s voice. That joy is mine, and it is now complete. 30He must become greater; I must become less.” h 31The one who comes from above is above all; the one who is from the earth belongs to the earth, and speaks as one from the earth. The one who comes from heaven is above all. 32He testifies to what he has seen and heard, but no one accepts his testimony. 33Whoever has accepted it has certified that God is truthful. 34For the one whom God has sent speaks the words of God, for God i gives the Spirit without limit. 35The Father loves the Son and has placed everything in his hands. 36Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not se John 3 NIV ~ ~ ~ ~ Comparing the concepts of born again with resurrection they are as different as night and day. Birth is the start of an individual’s life as a physically separate being from the mother. It’s probably best to understand Jesus’ words as drawing upon the motif of physical birth rather than pressing them into a scientifically precise description of a spiritual re-birth. Resurrection - is the concept of coming back to life after death. At times Scripture speaks of being born and being raised from the dead in metaphors and euphemisms - but to insist that all passages be interpreted as literal is the folly of fundamentalism . Looking at the context of the Corinthian passage you quoted – the natural sense of resurrection here is a revitalization… a restoration… a regeneration of bodies that were dead and a unique transformation of living bodies...Paul seems to want us to take his references to resurrection in a literal sense: 12But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. 15More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. 16For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. 17And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. 18Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. 19If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied. 20But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23But each in turn: Christ, the first fruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27For he “has put everything under his feet.” c Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all. 29Now if there is no resurrection, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized for them? 30And as for us, why do we endanger ourselves every hour? 31I face death every day—yes, just as surely as I boast about you in Christ Jesus our Lord. 32If I fought wild beasts in Ephesus with no more than human hopes, what have I gained? If the dead are not raised, “Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die.” d 33Do not be misled: “Bad company corrupts good character.” e 34Come back to your senses as you ought, and stop sinning; for there are some who are ignorant of God—I say this to your shame. 35But someone will ask, “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?” 36How foolish! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. 37When you sow, you do not plant the body that will be, but just a seed, perhaps of wheat or of something else. 38But God gives it a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives its own body. 39Not all flesh is the same: People have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another and fish another. 40There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another. 41The sun has one kind of splendor, the moon another and the stars another; and star differs from star in splendor. 42So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being” f ; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. 46The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. 47The first man was of the dust of the earth; the second man is of heaven. 48As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the heavenly man, so also are those who are of heaven. 49And just as we have borne the image of the earthly man, so shall we g bear the image of the heavenly man. 50I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.” h 1 Corinthians 15 NIV

Putting it that way, makes God sound like He’s a poor planner – since Romans 8 says in verse 22 We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time…so God ‘planned’ all this? Plan = a detailed proposal for doing or achieving something; an intention or decision about what one is going to do; as a verb = decide on and arrange in advance; design or make a plan of (something to be made or built). I guess one way to say it was “the whole plan” all along is to say that’s what God ultimately intended. One could think of The Fall of humankind as something that surprised God. I mean it could be – one of the ways children learn is by experience – making decisions that have real consequences – circling back to the Romans 8:22 metaphor, that means we haven’t even got the adult portion of the program started yet…maybe the whole plan included a contingency plan if things didn’t go according to the plan. Children are like that. ~ ~ ~ ~ Looking at the context of the passage you quoted in Daniel 9 – makes me think there must be some way to reconcile the treacherous way God’s whole plan is working out, if we don’t want to impugn His benevolence – which brings up the issue of free will. If God didn’t intend for humankind to be automatons, then He must have had something up His sleeve for the possibility of rebellion: 4I prayed to the Lord my God and confessed: “Lord, the great and awesome God, who keeps his covenant of love with those who love him and keep his commandments, 5we have sinned and done wrong. We have been wicked and have rebelled; we have turned away from your commands and laws. 6We have not listened to your servants the prophets, who spoke in your name to our kings, our princes and our ancestors, and to all the people of the land. 7“Lord, you are righteous, but this day we are covered with shame—the people of Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem and all Israel, both near and far, in all the countries where you have scattered us because of our unfaithfulness to you. 8We and our kings, our princes and our ancestors are covered with shame, Lord, because we have sinned against you. 9The Lord our God is merciful and forgiving, even though we have rebelled against him; 10we have not obeyed the Lord our God or kept the laws he gave us through his servants the prophets. 11All Israel has transgressed your law and turned away, refusing to obey you. “Therefore the curses and sworn judgments written in the Law of Moses, the servant of God, have been poured out on us, because we have sinned against you. 12You have fulfilled the words spoken against us and against our rulers by bringing on us great disaster. Under the whole heaven nothing has ever been done like what has been done to Jerusalem. 13Just as it is written in the Law of Moses, all this disaster has come on us, yet we have not sought the favor of the Lord our God by turning from our sins and giving attention to your truth. 14The Lord did not hesitate to bring the disaster on us, for the Lord our God is righteous in everything he does; yet we have not obeyed him. 15“Now, Lord our God, who brought your people out of Egypt with a mighty hand and who made for yourself a name that endures to this day, we have sinned, we have done wrong. 16Lord, in keeping with all your righteous acts, turn away your anger and your wrath from Jerusalem, your city, your holy hill. Our sins and the iniquities of our ancestors have made Jerusalem and your people an object of scorn to all those around us. 17“Now, our God, hear the prayers and petitions of your servant. For your sake, Lord, look with favor on your desolate sanctuary. 18Give ear, our God, and hear; open your eyes and see the desolation of the city that bears your Name. We do not make requests of you because we are righteous, but because of your great mercy. 19Lord, listen! Lord, forgive! Lord, hear and act! For your sake, my God, do not delay, because your city and your people bear your Name.” 20While I was speaking and praying, confessing my sin and the sin of my people Israel and making my request to the Lord my God for his holy hill— 21while I was still in prayer, Gabriel, the man I had seen in the earlier vision, came to me in swift flight about the time of the evening sacrifice. 22He instructed me and said to me, “Daniel, I have now come to give you insight and understanding. 23As soon as you began to pray, a word went out, which I have come to tell you, for you are highly esteemed. Therefore, consider the word and understand the vision: 24“Seventy ‘sevens’ c are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish d transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the Most Holy Place. e 25“Know and understand this: From the time the word goes out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, f the ruler, comes, there will be seven ‘sevens,’ and sixty-two ‘sevens.’ It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble. 26After the sixty-two ‘sevens,’ the Anointed One will be put to death and will have nothing. g The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed. 27He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’ h In the middle of the ‘seven’ i he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple j he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him. k ” l Daniel 9 NIV ~ ~ ~ ~ Circling back to Romans 8 NIV speaks of the contingency plans already in place: 1Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you a free from the law of sin and death. 3For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, b God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. c And so he condemned sin in the flesh, 4in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5Those who live according to the flesh have their minds set on what the flesh desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace. 7The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. 8Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God. 9You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ. 10But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life d because of righteousness. 11And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of e his Spirit who lives in you. 12Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. 14For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God. 15The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship. f And by him we cry, “Abba, g Father.” 16The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children. 17Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory. 18I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. 19For the creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed. 20For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21that h the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God. 22We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. 23Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption to sonship, the redemption of our bodies. 24For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what they already have? 25But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently. 26In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us through wordless groans. 27And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for God’s people in accordance with the will of God. 28And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who i have been called according to his purpose. 29For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. 31What, then, shall we say in response to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? 33Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. 34Who then is the one who condemns? No one. Christ Jesus who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. 35Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? 36As it is written: “For your sake we face death all day long; we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered.” j 37No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, k neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

no one...but then again - what do YOU think the death is in Genesis 2 & 3? I was wondering if death can be understood as both physical and spiritual death. Why does it have to be one or the other? What do you mean by that? God still speaking to Adam and others – what does that prove? God talked to The Serpent. God and The Satan talking to each other in the book of Job. Jesus and The Devil talking to each other in Matthew 4 & Luke 4. The Risen Christ talked to Saul on the road to Damascus. Maybe separation speaks to the parting of ways i.e., a divergence…a movement in different directions away from a common point. So true – even today – there can be opposing parties in politics, the cold war of rivaling countries, divorced couples – all separated yet they sometimes manage communication between them. I’m curious. What is the doctrine of spiritual death? And so, following up with your opening statement, again I ask you what is the death spoken about in Genesis 2 & 3?

Or maybe the serpent was wrong – after all - he probably was familiar with the cultural expression of death – being a separation – in this context Adam and Eve’s spiritual separation from God… but if that did NOT happen (the spiritual separation from God) then yes, the serpent would have been right, and the rest of the Bible is rendered superfluous - oh what joy for every girl and boy…well...you'll have to excuse me I’ve got some apologies to make in the other doctrinal forums.

“It is finished” = Release from Your Prisons ~ ~ ~ ~ Yes Dorothy, that means you don’t have to send in your blue forms with the Twig's abundant sharing anymore. Meanwhile the wicked witch of the offshoots wants those ruby slippers.

Yup - I agree but the Scripture quoted has to do with giving rewards or punishments according to what one has done, in other words works...it seems to me they are NOT talking about salvation, forgiveness or mercy...completely different topics! For review - here's the rest of what I said:

Can you define what is NOT by works? From the Scripture quoted I gather that rewards and punishment are doled out according to one’s works. I don’t understand your question.

128. Once a cult-mindset is formed it can be extremely difficult to change. There are many reasons why it can be very complicated to make “adjustments” – and probably a biggie is just becoming “familiar” with one’s own outlook. Not sure if this is the best way to describe it – but it’s like taking a detached look at yourself…almost like if you were God – what would you think of this person? Charles F. Kettering , American inventor, engineer, businessman, and the holder of 186 patents, a founder of Delco, and was head of research at General Motors from 1920 to 1947. Many cite Kettering’s maxim that “A problem well-framed is a problem half-solved.” What I’m saying is first we must be aware there is a problem. Self-awareness is the experience of one's own personality or individuality. It is not to be confused with consciousness - - being aware of one's environment, body and lifestyle; self-awareness is the recognition of that awareness. Self-awareness is how an individual experiences and understands their own character, feelings, motives, and desires. Here's some helpful hyperlinks: How to Increase Your Self-Awareness and Peace of Mind | Psychology Today What Is Self-Awareness, and How Do You Get It? | Psychology Today Increasing Your Self-Awareness | Psychology Today Self-Awareness: Development, Types, and How to Improve (verywellmind.com) ~ ~ ~ ~ The PFAL class is an entry-level indoctrination process that requires little to no experience, education, or training. As a matter of fact, the less one knows about the Bible and/or lacks street-smarts, that’s all the better for what makes an ideal PFAL student. [FYI Street-smarts = the experience and knowledge necessary to deal with the potential difficulties, scams, and dangers of life. ] ~ ~ ~ ~ Mindsets are necessary. To understand this item # 128 of Why PFAL sucks, one needs to grasp where a mindset comes from. A mindset is a frame of mind. It’s the sum of beliefs, opinions, and thoughts that we've formed about the world and ourselves. It's the lens through which we observe our world. Our education, religion, upbringing, and experience shape our beliefs and thoughts. Our mind is "set." It directly impacts how our perception and reactions. From: How to Upgrade Your Mindset to Succeed in Life | Psychology Today ~ ~ ~ ~ The Stanford University psychologist Carol Dweck (2006) popularized the idea of mindsets by contrasting different beliefs about where our abilities come from. If we have a fixed mindset and think that our ability is innate, then a failure can be unsettling because it makes us doubt how good we are. In contrast, if we have a growth mindset, then we expect that we can improve our ability—and a failure, therefore, shows us what we need to work on. From: Mindsets | Psychology Today Some other hyperlinks about mindset: Mindset - Wikipedia What Mindset Is and Why It Matters (verywellmind.com) ~ ~ ~ ~ The key to freedom is something you already have. One of our greatest assets is the freedom to choose our response in any situation. When we were kids we often exercised that freedom as much as we could - - which occasionally pushed our parents / or parent to the brink of dropping us off at the fire station under the cover of night and then joining the peace corps. As we got older and learned more about how life works, we learned to make better choices, play well with others and appreciate the love letters that we receive at the fire station from our guilt-ridden parents/parent on a peace corps mission somewhere in the world… ...Maybe when we get to adulthood, we forget how flexible, adventurous, and often fearless we were to change our minds. Around 2005 I read a great book which I still review once and awhile - Changing Minds: The Art and Science of Changing Our Own and Other People's Minds by Howard Gardner . He said: The phenomenon of changing minds is one of the least examined and – I would claim – least understood of familiar human experiences. He says in his book that his focus is on changes of the mind that occur CONSCIOUSLY as a result of forces that can be IDENTIFIED - in the book he notes 7 factors for changing minds . Gardner does NOT list faith as one of the factors… But it is interesting what Gardner says about faith on pages 186 and 187 which I will list here: "Perhaps the most famous change of mind of all times was that undergone by Rabbi Saul of Tarsus during the first century A.D. Having been a persecutor of Christianity and, indeed having embarked on a journey to Damascus to suppress this new and troublesome sect, Saul was temporarily blinded. He heard a voice that thundered, "Why persecutist thou me?" On his arrival in Damascus, Saul [now Paul] regained his sight and became a convert to Christianity. He studied the life of Christ and became a leader – an apostle – of Christianity…Paul had seen the errors of his ways, undergone a dramatic conversion, and was able to use his personal experiences as a basis on which to communicate to others who might be persuaded to change their religious allegiance. In our terms, we could say that a real event in Paul's world triggered this dramatic change in his own mind – a change that resonated with him and would eventually resonate with millions of others. Changes in faith are intensely personal." In the context of my involvement in The Way International, there were a series of real events that led to me changing my mind about what I thought of TWI. They were not as dramatic as Paul’s conversion - but real events were a catalyst just the same! It took years - the buildup of ignored red flags, mental and emotional scar tissues, disappointments, disillusionment, frustrations, questions, doubts all pushed me to a tipping point when the power struggles and propaganda was ramped up in 1986. ~ ~ ~ ~ So, our mindset is simply beliefs, opinions and thoughts that we hold near and dear: "...Beliefs as energy-saving shortcuts in modeling and predicting the environment. Beliefs are our brain’s way of making sense of and navigating our complex world. They are mental representations of the ways our brains expect things in our environment to behave, and how things should be related to each other—the patterns our brain expects the world to conform to. Beliefs are templates for efficient learning and are often essential for survival... ...These shortcuts to interpreting and predicting our world often involve connecting dots and filling in gaps, making extrapolations and assumptions based on incomplete information and based on similarity to previously recognized patterns. In jumping to conclusions, our brains have a preference for familiar conclusions over unfamiliar ones. Thus, our brains are prone to error, sometimes seeing patterns where there are none. This may or may not be subsequently identified and corrected by error-detection mechanisms. It’s a trade-off between efficiency and accuracy... ...In its need for economy and efficiency of energy consumption, the default tendency of the brain is to fit new information into its existing framework for understanding the world, rather than repeatedly reconstructing that framework from scratch... ...Radically restructuring our belief system and creating a new worldview engages parts of the brain involved in higher reasoning processes and computation, and is consequently more effortful, time- and energy-consuming. The brain often cannot afford such an investment. This would explain why, when we experience cognitive dissonance, it is easier to resolve this discomfort by doubling down on our existing belief system—ignoring or explaining away the challenging, contradictory information.... ...Science values the changing of minds through disproving previously held beliefs and challenging received authority with new evidence. This is in sharp contrast to faith (not just religious faith). Faith is far more natural and intuitive to the human brain than is science. Science requires training. It is a disciplined method that tries to systematically overcome or bypass our intuitions and cognitive biases and follow the evidence regardless of our prior beliefs, expectations, preferences or personal investment. ...The increasing application of the scientific method in the last four centuries ushered in unprecedented, accelerating progress in humanity’s quest to understand the nature of reality and vast improvements in quality of life. Discovering just how mistaken we collectively were about so many things has been the key to sensational societal progress... ...Faith is based on belief without evidence, whereas science is based on evidence without belief. " from: Psychology Today: what is a belief? why is it hard to change? Changing a cult mindset may be tricky – but it’s not impossible!