T-Bone

Mike said: Well, it looks to me that I made some strong points on the absent Christ, so now it's time for others to bury it T-Bone’s response: That’s odd. YOU were the one who brought up the free pass and the bad behavior of King David. ~ ~ ~ ~ Mike said: This text storm has blown far away from the absent Christ now, and is just a hodge podge of attacks on me and VPW and PFAL T-Bone’s response: Would YOU please show me the specific “hodge podge” (confused mixture) of attacks on YOU , Mike ? ~ ~ ~ ~ Mike said: I am not going to try and keep up with the flood of text. If anyone wants to get back to the topic, I will pay attention. T-Bone’s response: Why do you think criticizing wierwille and PFAL is off topic? The unchristian ideology of wierwille and PFAL is merely a subtopic of the Absent Christ? thread. A very relevant and important subtopic - I might add since it goes deep into the ramifications of his toxic ideology - that usually minimizes, marginalizes, distorts or flat-out eliminates Christ. Mike’s responses are so predictably dodgy. He complains my post is too long (see my long post here - and note most of my post is quoting from the Bible...which I thought he would enjoy reading ) He says he doesn’t have time to deal with it.... When I boil it down to just three (count ‘em) three short questions (see my short post - here ) that are the crux of my long post, he complains it's off topic....well lookie here - you can use this post to Quantum Leap to my other posts. wow-wee-wow it's like a cross-reference crossfire. Remember the feedback that I give TWI about your job performance on Grease Spot Café may affect any salary / position negotiations you are currently having with them. That’s all for now, Mike - try to keep up

Hang in there Floridians! I was watching the news the other night – it was unreal – the reporter is standing just inside a parking garage, and it looks like he’s in a wind tunnel! And now I’m hearing Ian can intensify again

Mike said: That means we get a free pass from God and He is not at all inclined to punish, but very inclined to resume work moving His Word with us. People are not so inclined to forgive, and when they do they usually remember the hurt and there is no free pass from them or others who see the hurt. These are very difficult issues. Studying Uriah's family and how they handled the hurt from David is enlightening. Some did not give a free pass to David, some did. The ones who did forgive and forget (somewhat) had the great benefit of hearing God's Word from David again. ~ ~ ~ ~ T-Bone's reply: Free pass = toleration of bad behavior or poor performance Punish = inflict a penalty or sanction on (someone) as retribution for an offense, especially a transgression of a legal or moral code What is the difference between punishment and consequences? Do you agree or disagree with the following statement: God punished King David and brought upon him the evil consequences of his sin to teach him (and others) the pure character of God’s Law. Do you agree or disagree with the following statement: God tolerates bad behavior or poor performance.

nonattendance takes the place of absenteeism synonymously speaking of course

My wife turned me onto Todd...she has a couple of his albums...earlier this year I got 3 of his albums on iTunes on my phone. Man, what a style...what a voice!

Hi Mike, I disagree with YOUR despicable and supposedly "Biblical" definition of “free pass” – and to the contrary the Bible is very clear that God did not tolerate bad behavior. And even though David was repentant of his adultery with Bathsheba – there were still multiple consequences – one of which was the child they both had together would die. David was told this by the prophet Nathan: Then David said to Nathan, “I have sinned against the Lord.” Nathan replied, “The Lord has taken away your sin. You are not going to die. But because by doing this you have shown utter contempt for the Lord, the son born to you will die.” After Nathan had gone home, the Lord struck the child that Uriah’s wife had borne to David, and he became ill. David pleaded with God for the child. He fasted and spent the nights lying in sackcloth on the ground. The elders of his household stood beside him to get him up from the ground, but he refused, and he would not eat any food with them. On the seventh day the child died. II Samuel 12 God takes away the sin when one repents...but there's nothing about God nixing the consequences...I'm sure cult-leaders would like to think they get off Scot-free as long as the general public or their loyal followers don't find out about their depraved lifestyle - but unfortunately for them believing does NOT equal receiving Mike, the child died, even after David fasted and pleaded with God! The way YOU related how God dealt with David you make it sound like God is a big softy on sin – and we should all be “so forgiving and forgetful”. When we repent God does forgive. But there's nothing in the Bible to indicate that there are no consequences from our wrong-doings. Suppose in the heat of passion, I shoot someone during a road rage incident. No matter how much I repent and try to make restitution to that person's family it will NOT bring the victim back to life. That's an irreversible consequence of my sin. David’s reign was plagued by consequences of his bad behavior. You said “Studying Uriah's family and how they handled the hurt from David is enlightening. Some did not give a free pass to David, some did. The ones who did forgive and forget (somewhat) had the great benefit of hearing God's Word from David again.” Mike, WHAT , pray tell , did YOU study? YOUR statement sounds like an encrypted message to victims and cult-survivors – and it decodes as follows: forgive and forget what harmful and controlling cult leaders have done to you so you can have the great benefit of hearing their bull$hit again. Since he had done evil to another man’s family, King David would receive evil in his own family – the rape of Tamar (daughter of David by Macaah) by David’s son Amnon and then another son of David Absalom avenges Tamar by murdering Amnon see II Samuel 13 Sometime later Absalom was rebellious – and quietly built up support, declared himself king and mounted a revolt at Hebron, forcing David to flee to Jerusalem see II Samuel 15 later on Absalom set up a tent on the roof of the palace ( perhaps throwing in David's face where his adulterous musing began) and had sexual relations with David’s concubines to assert his right to his father’s throne see II Samuel 16 . ~ ~ ~ ~ This is an interesting failure to note. The following is a record of God giving David a choice of 3 options in consequences for his royal blunder: Satan rose up against Israel and incited David to take a census of Israel. So, David said to Joab and the commanders of the troops, “Go and count the Israelites from Beersheba to Dan. Then report back to me so that I may know how many there are.” 3 But Joab replied, “May the Lord multiply his troops a hundred times over. My lord the king, are they not all my lord’s subjects? Why does my lord want to do this? Why should he bring guilt on Israel?” 4 The king’s word, however, overruled Joab; so Joab left and went throughout Israel and then came back to Jerusalem. 5 Joab reported the number of the fighting men to David: In all Israel there were one million one hundred thousand men who could handle a sword, including four hundred and seventy thousand in Judah. 6 But Joab did not include Levi and Benjamin in the numbering, because the king’s command was repulsive to him. 7 This command was also evil in the sight of God; so, he punished Israel. 8 Then David said to God, “I have sinned greatly by doing this. Now, I beg you, take away the guilt of your servant. I have done a very foolish thing.” 9 The Lord said to Gad, David’s seer, 10 “Go and tell David, ‘This is what the Lord says: I am giving you three options. Choose one of them for me to carry out against you.’” 11 So Gad went to David and said to him, “This is what the Lord says: ‘Take your choice: 12 three years of famine, three months of being swept away before your enemies, with their swords overtaking you, or three days of the sword of the Lord—days of plague in the land, with the angel of the Lord ravaging every part of Israel.’ Now then, decide how I should answer the one who sent me.” 13 David said to Gad, “I am in deep distress. Let me fall into the hands of the Lord, for his mercy is very great; but do not let me fall into human hands.” 14 So the Lord sent a plague on Israel, and seventy thousand men of Israel fell dead. 15 And God sent an angel to destroy Jerusalem. But as the angel was doing so, the Lord saw it and relented concerning the disaster and said to the angel who was destroying the people, “Enough! Withdraw your hand.” The angel of the Lord was then standing at the threshing floor of Araunah the Jebusite. 16 David looked up and saw the angel of the Lord standing between heaven and earth, with a drawn sword in his hand extended over Jerusalem. Then David and the elders, clothed in sackcloth, fell facedown. 17 David said to God, “Was it not I who ordered the fighting men to be counted? I, the shepherd, have sinned and done wrong. These are but sheep. What have they done? Lord my God, let your hand fall on me and my family, but do not let this plague remain on your people.” II Chronicles 21 It’s kind of predictable how some wierwille and LCM sympathizers have King David as their go-to mascot for a free pass on bad behavior. I’ve seen this come up occasionally on Grease Spot Café. A couple of notable threads always come to mind – maybe because I’m kind of proud of my response to such bull$hit…you can see the posts - here and here Enjoy a deeper Bible study

Mike's response: You are close here. I spent the years 1998 to 2018 reviewing all the collaterals and Magazine articles of VPW. I am now spending more time applying what I learned in that 20 year review: applying to my life's dicipline, applying to loving others better, applying to working the KJV, NIV, NASB, etc. PFAL only directly covers a fraction of the scriptures. ~ ~ ~ ~ T-Bone: I appreciate the clarification. You might feel your hard work goes unrecognized, but I for one think if wierwille were still alive he might be impressed with what you’ve done. I thought I remembered PFAL pretty good, but you’ve shown me how malleable PFAL and the Bible can be. ~ ~ ~ ~ Mike's response: I cherish any and all friendly exchange here. I am in close contact to TWI leadership on the field and slowly getting to know some at HQ. T-Bone: I figured you have been doing some networking with TWI-folks – well, good for you…who knows…TWI becoming a less harmful and controlling cult may already be underway. ~ ~ ~ ~ Mike's response: The legacy I feel worth preserving of VPW's is what he taught in writing. That is what I focused on to get an understand of God, His Son, and the written Word. It got purified by the time it reached the printing stages. He had a lot of help doing that, people with holy spirit and love. T-Bone: And again, I say you and I are worlds apart concerning the validity and value of what wierwille taught and wrote. Good luck, Mike

But it’s obvious we are worlds apart on what we each mean when we say it’s important to get more of God’s Word into our lives. You obviously equate PFAL with God’s Word and the way to get more of that in your life is to review PFAL. But to end my post on a friendlier note - I would be more than happy to give TWI a good recommendation of you - since I honestly think you are very committed to keeping wierwille’s legacy alive. peace out

Airing your special “talents” on Grease Spot Cafe seems pointless to me However I bet TWI could use a hard sell salesman like you have a nice day, Mike.

considering the propaganda for wierwille's defense in Mike's posts - and his failure to engage in an honest discussion - I honestly wonder WHY Mike wastes his time at Grease Spot Cafe. Maybe his time would be better spent if he went to work at TWI HQ.

It gets real messy when a wierwille fan goes overboard whitewashing his unchristian ministry. clean up on cult aisle 6! wow - that's just dandy - you're assuming the role of God's high priest ! apparently you think Christ is absent from that role too you flatter yourself. I take advantage of your wierwille-propaganda to use as a springboard to alert those still in TWI of the dangers of wierwille-toxins don't hold your breath waiting not interested in your misdirection

that's already been discussed funny how you give wierwille's old man nature a free pass - didn't he say "I'd rather see a sermon than hear one"? I can’t hear his teachings over the roar of his unconscionable behavior seems like wierwlle's old man nature got the best of him and he let it sabotage his ministry - that's a subject YOU need to come to grips with No, you guessed wrong...you're the one trying to change the subject

I disagree – my posts and questions are very much on topic! The topic is the absent Christ in wierwille’s PFAL class, in his ideology, in his lifestyle, especially in his example behind closed doors. Let the record show Mike's response is to ignore the topic.

Mike: An interesting thought flashed across my mind. Tell me it this rings accurate. If not I will check the video. In the Rock of Ages movie, there is a scene with VPW talking to a little boy. VPW asks him "Where's Jesus?" The little boy points up. VPW points to the little boy's chest and says "He's in there." or something like that. ~ ~ ~ ~ T-Bone: That just a shameful whitewashing of that pontificating hypocritical sexual predator. Shame on you, Mike ! You reminded me of an interesting thread… very interesting because YOU started it. Here’s the link to a comment I made on YOUR thread > here where Grease Spotters can read the entire post. Your dismissive tone and absurd arguments to defend wierwille to the uttermost is truly astonishing to me. I find your obsession so fascinating because I can’t fathom why someone would be so driven. It was on YOUR thread that you were dismissive about Penworks’ book “Undertow” and revealed your ignorance of hermeneutics by defending wierwille’s absurd dictum “Scripture interprets itself.” In your typical impatient, calloused, illogical and offhand way you asked if there was a section of the book you could skip to that I felt was important for you to read…That’s when I realized I was not discussing a doctrinal issue but rather arguing with a brick wall erected by someone who does not want to hear about how intellectually inadequate and morally depraved wierwille was. so, I recommended another book Losing the Way: A Memoir of Spiritual Longing, Manipulation, Abuse, and Escape by Kristen Skedgell and bearing in mind YOUR preference for something less cerebral and that cuts to the chase – I recommended YOU skip ahead to pages 117 to 120 of her book – where Kristen relates an incident of wierwille sexually molesting her in the Coachman Suite at the Rome City campus – and afterwards wierwille says “It’s the lockbox, honey. You have to keep this in the lockbox of your soul. Many of God’s people wouldn’t understand what we’ve just done.” …no kidding – I certainly don’t understand how a supposed minister…president and founder of a biblical research, teaching and fellowship ministry could do something like that to a Christian woman in the way corps - a training program wierwille created. Hey, Mike where was Jesus in the Coachman Suite? Imagine if that little boy you spoke of was playing hide and seek that day and hid himself in the Coachman Suite. Unbeknownst to wierwille or Kristen the little boy witnesses the president and founder of a biblical research, teaching and fellowship ministry – the “man of God” who had pointed at his little chest and said Jesus was in there – now observes that same man sexually molesting a young Christian woman. What would that little boy think? Probably wierwille would not have cared. I mean, he didn’t seem to care what Kristen thought or felt. What do you think that would have done to YOUR belief system if YOU had been her? Don’t you get it, Mike? wierwille was a lying, thieving, plagiarizing, Drambuie-guzzling, sexual predator – but he sure had a lot of people fooled. It’s weird how some still persist to mindlessly defend his “ministry”.

WWJD versus WWwT or the runner-up title The Absent Christ – codename: Gnosticism There are two ways to make a student learn and understand a concept. One is the abstract way where the subject is taught in the form of text and pictures and sought to be made clear to students through classroom lectures given by teachers. Our textbooks in schools are the backbone of this theory system. It is believed that most of our learning comes through this theoretical system of education. The properties of objects and matter and the way they interact with each other are written and described in categories so as to make students grasp them in a better manner. Subjects like history can always be presented in the form of theory or text as there is no way to convert them into practice though today there are visual mediums that can be used to make students even see history and geography. However, natural phenomenon, their reasons, causes, and correlations are always sought to be presented in textual form so that students retain them for a long time period. Of course, a medical student can understand a disease in a much better manner when shown a person afflicted with a disease, but he is still made to learn the symptoms in a theoretical manner so as to be able to better diagnose between two similar diseases. Practice In all systems of education, there is a methodology of teaching based upon practice. This is a part of education that is best described through vocational courses and certificates and diplomas that people get in professions of hairstyling, plumbing, carpentry, cookery, electronics repair, air conditioning, etc. In most of these professions, there is a theoretical part which tries to present the subject matter in the form of a capsule. This theory is, however, used by students, to write down in exams to get good grades while practice is first hand experience of what they are supposed to do in real life after passing out from their classes. A lawyer may undergo a lot of theory based classes but, in real life, when he starts his practice, he is always dependent upon his acumen and present evidences. What is the difference between Theory and Practice? • It is all too easy to explain the concepts of thirst, pain and sorrow in theory, but the person realizes the difference only when he undergoes these experiences in real life. • In theory, many assumptions are made to explain the phenomenon and concepts whereas in real life, there are no assumptions and conditions are always unique. • Most of the subjects consist of a theory as well as practical part, but there are some courses that are vocational in nature and need to be taught through first hand practice. • However, even medical students have to learn theories and symptoms of diseases when they can be taught entirely through practice. • The dichotomy of theory and practice will remain as these two form the backbone of all learning procedures. Excerpts are from: what is the difference between theory and practice? End of excerpts ~ ~ ~ ~ This one line “In all systems of education, there is a methodology of teaching based upon practice” jumped out to me. In my opinion, there’s large portions of PFAL that are impractical – yet students are encouraged to accept them as the gospel truth. By impractical I mean they’re not adaptable for use or action – they are flat out foolish…unrealistic. Ideas like the law of believing, Scripture interprets itself, and wierwille’s amoral interpretation of Christ’s two great commandments come to mind Matthew 22: 34 -40 . wierwille's theories in PFAL may look good on paper - or video - but in the acid test - when the rubber meets the road - when you try to apply them - they don't work! This thread on the absent Christ in wierwille’s ideology got me thinking why a love for the gospels was rekindled when I left TWI. It’s awkward to explain – but I’ll try. And the following explanation will decode the title at the top of my post: WWJD versus WWwT Remember WWJD = What Would Jesus Do? (I’ll get to the WWwT in a little bit ) Do you remember that popular slogan (popular with many Christian groups but not TWI - from the 90s I think). I've always thought that it was cool and pretty compelling – a moral imperative – a reminder to act in a way that demonstrated the love, compassion and kindness of Jesus Christ…(also interesting to note TWI discouraged using just the name "Jesus" - since, they said it referred to his humiliation and also they claimed there was a devil spirit named Jesus ) Ironically reflecting back on when I took PFAL ‘74, I think wierwille used Jesus Christ and the basic tenets of Christianity as almost like a window dressing – creating a favorable impression to draw people in…but it’s misleading…like a bait-and-switch scam…Jesus Christ, sin, forgiveness, love, etc. are mentioned a lot in the earlier sessions of PFAL. There is even a point when wierwille says “Tell me what you think of Jesus and I’ll tell you how far you’re going to go spiritually.” That made a lot of sense to me – since Jesus Christ is the central figure of Christianity. then there is a subtle but crucial shift of importance when wierwille says “The Word takes the place of the absent Christ"…and my little pea brain was fascinated by the intangible world of captivating and mesmerizing notions that have no expiration date. There was a hyper-focus on the church epistles in PFAL – to the detriment of attention to the gospels – especially the life, words, works, and suffering of Jesus Christ. And I believe that short-circuited a transformative relationship with him. In the class, wierwille provided a misdirection. Remember in the class when wierwille was commenting on – if memory serves, I think it was John 5:39 “Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.” He said something along the lines of “It doesn’t say search Shakespeare or Chaucer. It says search the scriptures. The Word is not an aid to devotion – it’s life – eternal life.” I’ve come to strongly disagree with his opinion. I think the Bible is supposed to be an aid to devotion – it’s one of the ways we can cultivate a loving relationship with Jesus Christ. wierwille’s comments are a dicey recipe for a cattywampus pseudo-Christian cult. Rather than me being a mindful Christian immersed in the gospels and sensing the moral imperative to follow Jesus Christ’s example - which should be compelling enough for any Christian – I fell for wierwille’s bookish approach via the church epistles. That eclipsed any budding relationship with my Lord. Instead of Christ’s moral imperative I was misdirected to an intellectual directive to study “The Word”…Maybe that’s what led me to have a cold…clinical…book-knowledge approach to Christianity rather than pursuing a deeper…personally immersive experience through Jesus Christ. Maybe earlier in PFAL wierwille had a point and didn’t know it. What if you think Jesus Christ is absent? How far will you go spiritually? An easy read that helped me start to bring the central figure of the Christian faith back into clear focus is Jesus: Lord & Savior by F.F. Bruce it gets into how Jesus was not only an historical figure but our eternal contemporary. Jesus Christ is The Logos – the Living Word – Jesus Christ is alive and well ! ~ ~ ~ ~ 2. WWwT = What Would wierwille Think? Since wierwille was a pontificating Pharisee of the highest order ( see Matthew 23 ) while I was in TWI, I found myself usually engaging in mental masturbation of PFAL. It seemed intellectually stimulating but useless for the most part. Procrastination had a cloak of invisibility that was built into the a mindset promoted by PFAL . It’s sneaky how it often got me to defer action until sometime later or to think I was actually accomplishing something by my thoughts…it's really mental masturbation and it's an excuse to avoid taking constructive action. check out the evolution: The Word takes the place of the absent Christ… …study the Word… …put the Word first in your life… I’m doing the Word… I think the Word of you… and this is no joke – when my mind would try to draw on some principle of “the Word” – lo and behold something wierwille said would pop into my head. if I would have used the slogan what would wierwille do? It would have been a short answer - nothing since he was a pontificating bossy-pants Pharisee who told everyone what they should do. I noticed the same hobbling mindset in LCM when I was in-rez watching the VP and Me video. LCM talked of when he first assumed his role as prez – he would wonder how to handle something and in his mind's eye he would see wierwille dealing with it…ah yes, the secrets of way corps indoctrination revealed! when reading KJV - sometimes I'll read a verse and it's like a Pop-Up video - I remember some goofy off the wall or erroneous comment wierwille said about it. True story on how unrealistic PFAL is: I left TWI in ’86, while serving out my way corps assignment of an area coordinator. I had already notified LCM and the Rome City campus coordinator of my decision. I had met with all the Twig coordinators I was responsible for overseeing, read the correspondence to and from LCM & campus coordinator, went over some other “edicts” from HQ, select notes from listening to Passing of the Patriarch when I was in-rez, and shared some very revealing highlights passed on to me by clergy who were at the all clergy meeting with Chris G* * r. After stepping down I still visited all the fellowships for a while – but it got very awkward. I didn’t really know what I was doing – and didn’t want to lead others astray – I did not want to teach “The Word” anymore. So, Twig visits were kind of depressing – as if it was my last chance to see my friends before I die. I’m not being melodramatic in my narrative – my life was so entangled with TWI the organization. As I began to realize it was a toxic relationship, I knew I had to sever it – and that was an awful feeling because mixed in with that dread were memories of good friends and fun experiences. I ramped up my “investigative efforts” to sort things out. I hit the motherlode at an estate sale of a pastor – got a bunch of hardbound commentaries and some systematic theologies – real cheap $1 each the first day – went back the next day and got more at 50 cents each! I was reevaluating wierwille's doctrines. learning to reengage my cognitive skills...getting familiar with systematic theologies, hermeneutics and reputable Christian scholars, philosophers and Bible studies that didn't seem to have some hidden agenda or self-aggrandizing propaganda. I also focused on what wierwille said about his education. Do you remember this gem from page 175 of the authorized book on TWI, titled “The Way Living in Love” (by Elena S. Whiteside, co 1972, American Christian Press, Library of Congress Catalog Card Number 72-89132), Whiteside quotes wierwille as he talked about his studies and influences: “I don’t remember much of the past. I’ll have to renew my mind. Oh yes, did I tell you I taught at Gordon Divinity School? Homiletics was my specialty – that’s preaching. I took everything I could take at the Moody Bible Institute too, through their correspondence courses.” In early June of 1987, I contacted The Moody Correspondence School Department of the Moody Bible Institute and spoke with Vivian Ruby in the Registrar’s Office. I was stunned to find out they had no record of wierwille completing a course with them. I couldn’t believe it. I didn’t want to believe it. I had to have something more tangible than a stranger's voice over the phone telling me that in effect wierwille lied about something in his education. I asked her to mail me that information in a letter with Moody Correspondence School’s official letterhead. You can see the letter here > from Moody Correspondence School 1987 . Ironically I found myself using one of wierwille's criteria against him. Remember in the class where he said something like if Jesus lied to us in John 10:10 then how can you trust what he said about other stuff? I began to feel that way about wierwille. was he a shifty con artist? my investigation picked up steam. I went to the library and looked into books on cults – weren’t many. But I found one of particular interest because TWI was named in it - The Kingdom of the Cults . One day I took the book to a make-your-own-copies store. While I’m copying pages, one of the WOWs in our area happened to walk in. He already knew I had resigned (from the meetings I mentioned earlier – and I had talked with him and his WOW coordinator a few times since then) – but I didn’t want him to see I was photocopying Kingdom of the Cults – I was afraid he had not gone that far spiritually – maybe he would think I got possessed…anyway to distract him from my task – I asked him what he was doing there – he said he was going to make copies of his resume and added “I had to quit my job – I just couldn’t think the Word there.” It’s a quirky yet sad memory that comes to me occasionally when I reflect. It epitomizes on how impotent “The Word” aka PFAL is. What Would wierwille Think? if wierwille was still alive to counsel that WOW, he would have probably told him to renew his mind and get back to work. Of course, wierwille who was lazy and egotistical didn’t practice what he preached but he probably thought he did. Don’t get me wrong – thinking is important – but delusions are not! What Would Jesus Do? This post is so ungodly long as it is – so I won’t elaborate on gospel examples – but I don’t think Jesus would have been so out of touch as to spout pat answers like “just renew your mind” or “just think the Word there”. Jesus would probably have visited with the WOW to find out what bugged him about work. I’m thinking of resurrected and unrecognized Jesus talking to his disciples in Luke 24:13 – 49 . You know Jesu knew how bummed out they were – yet he plays dumb and innocently asks “what’s up guys?” Christ was absent from wierwille's idelogy....And it seems anything of noble substance, worthwhile achievements, truth, honesty and compassion were almost nonexistent in his life! ~ ~ ~ ~ Love is better than knowledge I Corinthians 13 I think wierwille’s ideology has some significant Gnosticism-like “genes” coiled up in its DNA. – in Gnosticism knowledge is “salvation” in that when one has attained a certain knowledge one is rescued from sin and its consequences, protected from harm or a dire situation. Such superior knowledge can even give one the ability to alter reality. I’ve shared a lot of this stuff elsewhere – but it’s very applicable on this thread…Gnosticism is an elusive and often misunderstood term. A simplified definition of it is to say it is mainly about “salvation” or a way to escape the evil and imperfect materialism of this world through a secret and special knowledge. I'm sorry for this gosh awful post about Gnosticism zzzzzZZZZ ZZzzz but I think it's so intriguing to see some of the origins of wierwille's ideology. okay, please bear with me folks - deep dive coming up Gnosticism is not really a definite homogenous religious system – it is so diverse. It is more along the lines of a mental construct - something existing only in the mind. It is an intellectual fabrication made from ideas and not physical components. It is only conceptual, not real. The ancient Gnostics did not know they were “Gnostics” – that is what others began to call them. Among the many groups that are identified as Gnostics, there was usually a big emphasis on esoteric knowledge. Henry Longueville Mansel (1820 – 1871) was an English philosopher and ecclesiastic, summed up the three principal sources of Gnosticism: 1. Platonism – its philosophical form and tendencies. 2. The Dualism of the Persian religion – speculations about the origin of evil and emanations which is an idea in the cosmology - emanation is from the Latin emanare meaning "to flow from" and is the mode by which all things are derived from the first reality, or principle. All things are derived from the first reality or perfect God by steps of degradation to lesser degrees of the first reality or God, and at every step the emanating beings are less pure, less perfect, less divine. 3. Buddhism which had an antagonism between matter and spirit – and the unreality of derived existence – the germ of Docetism which in Gnosticism taught that Christ's body was not human but either a phantasm or of real but celestial substance, and that therefore his sufferings were only apparent. If you really think about it, you can see wierwille's ideology was somewhat tinged with the above 3 sources. Henry Melvill Gwatkin (1844 – 1916) was an English theologian and church historian, said Gnosticism is Christianity perverted by learning and speculation. The intellectual pride of the Gnostics changed the gospel into a philosophy and had a tendency to regard knowledge as superior to faith and that it was something only held by the more enlightened since ordinary Christians did not possess this secret higher doctrine. Also, it was essential to view matter and spirit as distinctly separate – and matter being intrinsically evil and the source from which all evil has arisen. Some scholars have said certain issues that Paul addresses in various letters are probably an incipient form of what later became known as Gnosticism; at its early stage it was essentially a religious-philosophical fused attitude, not a well-defined system of thought. The esoteric exclusiveness and asceticism of its adherents had a negative effect on Christian freedom and was derogatory to the idea that the Holy Spirit could dwell in our evil human bodies – see the correlation in passages that correct the error of some seeking spiritual deliverance through philosophy and ascetic practices of self-abasement and severity to the body Colossians 2 - and how knowledge puffs up I Corinthians 13 and Paul warning against myths, speculations and vain discussions in I Timothy 1 . In the epistles of John we find Gnosticism was distinguished by an unethical, loveless intellectualism and repeatedly condemned antinomianism (which is a belief which rejects laws or legalism and argues against moral, religious or social norms). It’s not that hard to see how one gets from the asceticism of Gnosticism to libertarianism that advocates total freedom – especially in thought and conduct. If one views spirit as good and matter as evil, then it’s possible one can slip into an indifference toward anything done in the physical realm. Consider how this belief might affect a person's attitude and way of life. If you eliminate the FEAR of consequences, you still don’t prevent the outcome of a foolhardy decision. When you attempt to undermine life’s school of hard knocks you cheat yourself out of learning experiences and blunt one of the keenest essentials of human nature – our self-preservation instinct. Imagine if you were guaranteed a doctorate degree regardless of whether or not you learned anything, did any of the work, attended any classes or paid any tuition. How motivated would you be to participate in the program? And if you did participate in any of it, how much would you apply yourself? Be honest. The point is – if one considers the spirit as already perfect and nothing can affect its status then why be concerned about anything done in the physical realm. wierwille’s big idea of the law of believing / magical thinking became sand in the machinery of my belief system. I believe love is the best lubricant to gear up for doing good. I believe there is something much more transformative in a loving relationship. A good relationship has something wonderfully reciprocal about it. I love my wife and she returns the sentiment. We are both changed. The relationship deepens. An even stronger bond is formed…I love my recliner, but it doesn’t return my love. Sometimes a strong bond happens with my recliner – and that’s when my loving wife gently nudges me and says “You fell asleep during The West Wing. Do you want me to back it up – or tell you about the episode?” That’s love, people! Here's a revelation of something that some TWI folks really don’t know. Jesus said the cornerstone of the Jewish faith is LOVE !!!! Matthew 22: 34 -40 The absence of a transformative relationship with Christ was a mysterious and ignored issue in my life during the 12 years that I was involved in a supposedly Christian ministry....as far as Christ’ immanence goes – he was right there with me even back then - but by me being unaware of that meant we both missed out. If my Christianity is based on knowledge alone - then I am autonomous. Any assessment, changes or improvements of my lifestyle are self-referential. I might think I’m doing great. I could ignore some moral demands of the Bible because I think my knowledge of the really spiritual stuff makes me a great believer. Stagnation! Ugh! I think a relationship with the ever-present Christ will tend to be a lot more dynamic

Excellent point! I came across an explanation of the difference between “illusion” and “delusion” that I thought would be of interest to any grads of PFAL: While illusion refers to unreal perception, delusion refers to a misguided idea. Illusion is created controlled by external influences, whereas delusion is created by an individual’s own emotions. The illusion occurs when you are duped by your perception, but delusion occurs when you make a nuisance of self due to your thoughts. The main difference between delusion and illusion is that Illusion is produced by exterior factors, whereas delusion is induced by a person’s internal sentiments. While illusion is considered outward, delusion is considered interior. The letter I in ‘illusion’ indicates ‘illusory,’ while the letter d in ‘delusion’ represents a ‘deluge of erroneous notions.’ Even though both illusions and delusions are erroneous, illusions concern the mind while delusions concern a belief. From: Ask Any Difference: difference between delusion and illusion ~ ~ ~ ~ What’s fascinating is to note the process of propagation. wierwille had grandiose delusions which were at the core of his ideology – also known as PFAL. When I first took PFAL in 1974, I was so impressed with wierwille’s performance featuring illusions of power AND supposedly definitive answers on the Bible AND on life that I quickly fell under his delusionary spell...I guess if the conditions are right - maybe delusions are contagious.

*GAGSAB critical Geek tech note: The original design for The Turd Over the World Auditorium *GAGSAB critical Geek tech note: He designed a Beta Video Machine that was so powerful it almost completely completely absolutely completely obscured the operator in a micro-storm of bliss and blunder. The “original” machine was called PFAL. Some Grease Spot Scholars have observed that “PFAL” resembles the sound made when one realizes they are eating bull$hit. Vintage Beta Video Machines are hoarded by antique collectors. The latest model dubbed PFAL Today has most of the features of the “original”. Some Grease Spot Scholars have observed that “PFAL Today” resembles the sound made when one realizes they are eating the same old bull$hit today.

A Gospel according to Grease Spotters to wit Acts of Bravery: parodies, adaptations and the occassional what in tarnation (GAGSAB for short) Introduction to GAGSAB Translation philosophy and methodology… zzzzZZZZ ZZZZzzzz wwhhhhat? Oh that’s my cue? Sorry...I haven’t really given that much thought. I was hoping the other contributors (other Grease Spotters) would just wing it like I do. Will there be any references to critical Geek techs? Maybe. Will some want to see it in the original? I hope so. Will there be proofreader’s oversights and interpolations. You betcha !!!! Well, enough of that beeswax, let’s get down to the real business. ~ ~ ~ ~ A long time ago (well…it was only two days ago when I got this idea) in a Galaxy far far away…(naw - forget that… Ford Galaxy sounds pretentious…I drove a 1967 Chevy Malibu to the PFAL class)…okay let’s start again… Forasmuch as many have taken to the internet to set forth in order a declaration of those things which are most surely common among us, Just as they were handed down to us by WayDale, which from the beginning were plaintiffs, witnesses and others even outside the courtroom. It seemed good to me also, having had similar experiences of all things mentioned from the very first, to start another thread in order to kill time, most excellent Grease Spotter friends, That you might be entertained and enlightened, for many have put two and two together and realized wierwille copied Bullinger’s error on how many were crucified with Jesus besides the many other logical fallacies and duplicitous tactics of a dishonest-to-good-grief con artist. In the time of President - - - uhm - - - you know what? …Let’s not get into politics – whether it’s governments, organizations, or parties…can we just start over…let’s go back to the beginning…when it all started for me…it was winter of 1974…that’s right…I’m driving my ’67 Malibu to class… in the beginning there was PFAL and I learned that PFAL was equivalent to the Word and the Word was top dog because wierwille was top dog and his bark was actually a lot nicer than his bite and that really bites! PFAL was made by him in that he copied from other books, moved $hit around and shook it up in order to cook the books. He claimed he was sent from God and one of his Grease Spot code names is Snow Job. He came to bear false witness against any who disagreed with him, for rather than take it light, he preferred to fight you can’t argue with stupid…he wasn’t very bright. He was king in his little cult-world, but the real world knew him not.

A true leader goes ahead of his people as a trailblazer... ...before the fiery PFAL bus went over its first cliff (as mentioned in Cliff Notes…aka PFAL syllabus) there was the leader of the pack… Ghost Rider Ghost Writer Ghost Plagiarizer Born to live…live to copy

No new announcements here…over the years I’ve shared a lot of this stuff before…so to recap 36 years of changes and growth since I left TWI – here’s a list of the big changes: 1. The Bible: I’ve gone from KJV to NIV and NASB for deep study. I have a number of versions on the bookshelf and access to others online. I look at other versions for the value of linguistics and a fresh look at the familiar. For the sheer pleasure of reading or meditation I usually grab NLT or ESV – and they don’t have any study notes or commentaries – I just want to read for overall continuity and comprehension. ~ ~ ~ ~ 2. View of the inspiration of the Bible: Even after I left TWI, I still held onto the fundamentalist/inerrancy view of the Bible. Probably early on in my Grease Spot years (that sounds funny to mark time that way) after dialoging with a lot of Grease Spotters and enjoying different perspectives – and reengaging my cognitive skills - I found myself leaning more toward a limited inspiration theory that supposes God inspired the thoughts of the biblical writers, but not necessarily the words they chose. God guided the thoughts of the writers, but he gave them freedom to express those thoughts in their own style. Having that freedom, some historical errors and ancient concepts of physical science and life science may be found. ~ ~ ~ ~ 3. The Trinity: A topic I am always curious about. I like to revisit it from time to time – as anyone can see on the various threads. People shouldn’t take my being drawn to the subject that I’m a big Trinity advocate. It’s really that I enjoy the freedom to explore a topic a lot more deeply than the shallow way wierwille addressed it. ~ ~ ~ ~ 4. Holy Spirit: I think wierwille didn’t know what he was teaching/talking about with the manifestations or how the Holy Spirit works in our lives. I believe the correct understanding of I Corinthians 12 is that the Holy Spirit is the one distributing as He sees fit – and you don’t need a class or practice sessions to get good at it. As far as walking by the spirit – I’m learning to trust my intuition more. Something that wierwille put down. Who cares? I also think there’s something going on with the Holy Spirit that authenticates the truth when we’re honest and humble in applying the Scriptures. Anyone who wants to claim they operate all nine all the time – have at it. I’m not trying to impress anyone – that was just in my TWI-daze. I think God probably has a lot bigger things in mind for each of us. Now all glory to God, who is able, through his mighty power at work within us, to accomplish infinitely more than we might ask or think. Ephesians 3:20 (Also see point # 10 commonplace believing versus religious faith ) ~ ~ ~ ~ 5. Prayer: I have a funny way of getting into prayer time. I start out praying the Lord’s prayer – it’s a good conversation starter - somewhere along the line something will stand out – “forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those” – oh yeah, I’m still mad at so and so over blah blah…might as well make peace with them now. I pray about all kinds of stuff, for friends and foes…and it’s always prayer in my understanding – so I’m deliberate in what I ask for and also can monitor my attitudes…I believe that’s when it becomes transformative. ~ ~ ~ ~ 6. wierwille / LCM/ campus coordinator / certain TWI-leaders: I had a lot more ex-TWI-angst when I first left TWI – but I’ve mellowed out over the years. I don’t write-off anyone like wierwille and LCM would. I don’t play God and condemn anyone to hell or think they’re possessed – I’ll leave judgement of everyone - and on what really matters- up to God. If you write-off people you short circuit the whole forgiveness / reconciliation process. It's a funny thing to step back and think about what I was involved in. Was it even a Christian ministry? I don’t think so. Probably more like a weird parasitic organization that resembled Christianity. A challenging counterfeit. I don't know. I'm always willing to give anyone in TWI the benefit of a doubt – even wierwille. I've never tried to determine anyone's motivation. For all I know wierwille believed he truly served God and God's people. But as the old proverb goes “the road to hell is paved with good intentions” - wrong or evil actions are often undertaken with good intentions...and sometime good intentions when acted upon may have unintended consequences. What are intentions? They are merely guiding principles for our thoughts, attitudes, choices, and actions. Usually, our intentions make us feel good about the beliefs we have. But intentions become irrelevant if they are not aligned with actions. Anytime I’ve tried to relate my experiences and observations on Grease Spot Café, I have attempted to keep my focus on actions, things that were said and done, observations, experiences, events and situations that were witnessed by others. And in doing so I have looked at how well the publicly stated intentions of TWI aligned with Christian ideology – and what were the consequences of followers applying what they learned from TWI… Unfortunately, it seems the ramifications are mostly negative, wide-ranging, and profound. On most issues I see a stark contrast with the way upper leadership in TWI managed followers and the 2 highest priorities Jesus Christ set forth in Matthew 22:37-40 ...to love God and love your neighbor as yourself. ..It seems obvious to me that how we treat people matters to God...so it makes sense that we should judge ourselves on how we actually deal with people rather than judging ourselves on why we think we serve God's people... we should evaluate our actions to see if they are in tune with our ideology. ~ ~ ~ ~ 7. Christianity: Local churches are cool. Over the years we’ve done some church shopping – not sure if my mental baggage clouds my judgement – but we just haven’t settled down in a particular church. I like the social aspect and the network support available. Maybe some day we will. For now, we tune into “church TV” on Sunday – usually David Jeremiah. I get nervous though when preachers try to address current issues and they’re using broad brush strokes instead of exercising cognitive skills to break things down to the nuts and bolts of a particular issue…it’s like that growing trend of Christian Nationalism – seems to me it’s politicizing the gospel more than spreading the gospel of Jesus Christ. I’m a Christian and a survivor of a pseudo-Christian cult – so I’m not interested in joining another cult. ~ ~ ~ ~ 8. Philosophy / Theology / Sociology / Psychology/ Music / Fine Arts / Writing: Some more fun subjects! I thought I learned all I needed to know in those fields after taking PFAL. Now I see I’ve got a long way to go. Exploration is exciting! PFAL and the TWI-mindset was an awfully small and stifling ideological box. Glad I got out of that. Now I’m self-driven – following my curiosity and being creative. ~ ~ ~ ~ 9. Family and friends: I am a recovering a$$hole with smart-a$$ tendencies. Sometimes it’s been 2 steps forward and 1 step back but I’ve done some major reprioritizing about what’s important to me. Instead of everything revolving around “the ministry”, I think I have enough on my plate developing deeper relationships with family and friends. ~ ~ ~ ~ 10. Commonplace believing and religious faith: For the sake of clarity, I like to differentiate between commonplace believing and religious faith. I’m not looking to redefine anything – that’s just how I like to clear up the confusion generated by some fans of magical thinking. Next to The Trinity, systematic theology, hermeneutics, and philosophy of religion, commonplace believing and religious faith have always been a subject of critical concern for me. You all know how I have a tendency to get didactic – and verbose – and believe me I’m trying to change that. Some of that comes from the “technical” stuff I read and haven’t fully processed it yet – meaning I have not spent enough time whittling it down to the essentials. The believing / faith teachings in TWI were so confusing and often frustrating and disappointing cuz it was trying to learn magic - and I don't believe in that $hit . For now, the simplest statement of my supposition is that commonplace believing is to religious faith, what The Wright Brothers achievement is to purchasing a plane ticket…uhhh what?!?! Hold on. To demystify this verb called believing, look at wierwille’s formula for mental busywork: “believing equals receiving”. It leaves a lot to be desired. For one thing – it sounds so passive. I get the idea all I need to do is be prepared to catch whatever it is that should happen to come my way. I wouldn’t be surprised if plagiarizing-wierwille oversimplified a success formula attributed to Napoleon Hill: what the mind of man can conceive and believe he can achieve. Now that doesn’t sound like a lazy person’s approach and doesn’t carry a sense of entitlement. Rather it conveys that if one has a realistic idea AND is armed with the right attitude AND takes the appropriate time and effort, one can successfully accomplish something. This is where the Wright Brothers' achievement fits in. Commonplace believing. It’s not like Napoleon Hill invented believing any more than Einstein invented the flexibility of matter and energy when he came up with E=mc2. Hill and Einstein merely articulated how certain things work. I think the biggest distinction is that faith is about transcending the self. Commonplace believing is just about you. In some sense it’s a helpless s feeling – you are powerless to pull it off and must rely on someone else to do it. I read of a pretty cool analogy of faith by a pastor online: It’s like me having little or no knowledge of how planes can fly and yet I buy a ticket and willingly get on a plane. I’m putting my trust in the technology and personnel of the aeronautical industry, the pilots, the reliability of the mechanical structure / systems of the jet, the maintenance crews, airport staff, the FAA, etc. I may have a fear of flying… feelings of anxiety may persist for the entire trip. But lo and behold I get to my destination. And I got there by faith in the abilities of others – all I had to do was purchase a ticket and get on the plane. Religious faith is relying on God’s ability. Again I refer to Ephesians 3:20 Now all glory to God, who is able, through his mighty power at work within us, to accomplish infinitely more than we might ask or think. ...note that God will "accomplish infinitely more than we might ask or think". don't sweat if you've got the believing to receive a miracle. God is able through His mighty power at work WITHIN US (see point # 4 Holy Spirit ) to go way beyond anything we might ask, think or believe! ~ ~ ~ ~ That’s all for now, folks

Sorry…had to squeeze in another episode of The West Wing…okay – where was I? oh yeah Mike: Also, there are the MANY splinter groups who partially lean on the collaterals (at least in memory), and are still very thankful for their solid foundation in PFAL, even if they disagree with some points. T-Bone: and again I must challenge your self-assuming omniscience and omnipresence…cuz there’s no way on vic’s green PFAL card (…or for that matter neither in the spacetime continuum where the rest of us live) that such a statement as yours is nothing more than self-aggrandizing. ~ ~ ~ ~ Mike: Even the mere possibility that I am right here MUST be challenged!. T-Bone: when monkeys wearing PFAL ’77 nametags come flying out my bvtt , I’ll admit that’s possible. ~ ~ ~ ~ Mike: …that I am right here MUST be challenged. My claim MUST be drowned out and buried. T-Bone: “challenged” – yes, that’s a dynamic in any debate. “My claim MUST be drowned out and buried” – make up your mind! A challenging debate articulates issues – such is the Socratic method - there’s no need to drown out or bury lies and logical fallacies – when the Socratic method exposes them…sorry to burst anyone’s bubble but maybe the “fatal drowning” was due to someone not knowing how to swim and wound up burying themselves at sea.

well if you're gonna do that, then I'm stealing an old anti-drug campaign ad... this is your brain this is PFAL this is your brain of PFAL

Mike: It looks to me that if I am right, that thousands of old grads ARE still being blessed by the collaterals, that would be pretty bad news to some posters here. T-Bone: take note of a nonsensical phrasing by Mike that displays the silliness of his argument using the word “if” which introduces a conditional clause; in other words, on the condition of, or supposition, or assumption that, or in the event that…now, rearranging his statement into a more normal manner of speaking that doesn’t try to hide his bias and logical fallacies, Mike’s statement could be understood in an Amplified translation Blue Letter Edition (de-obfuscated words of Mike in Blue) as: “On my assumption [or without an honest and accurate quantifying/qualifying polling/survey basis thereby thumbing my nose at experts in the preparation and analysis of statistics, i.e., statisticians] after pulling an impressive sounding number out of my a$$, what I see through my wierwille-colored glasses is that some Grease Spotters are not impressed over my battles with windmills.”

Vic-o-lantern got you in big trouble? Are you having second thoughts about selling your home to go in the Way Corps? Vic’s VapoRub to the rescue! Q: What does Vic’s VapoRub do? A: Vic’s VapoRub temporarily relieves clarity due to minor inconsistencies and intellectual irritations associated with common sense. It can also be used to temporarily relieve minor moral dilemmas and pains of conscience due to qualms. Only use as directed by the “Doctor” or your local Pharisee. When life rubs you the wrong way then Vic’s VapoRub is The Way. ~~ ~~ ~~ advertisement paid for by the committee to resurrect wierwille

Mike: I looked at the good fruit first, and THEN I started to believe his claims. It occurred to me that I didn't have the ability to look at the fruit in HIS life, but in my life, and in the lives of my friends who took the class, the fruit was (and still is) abundant and good. T-Bone: Baloney! Has it ever occurred to you that YOU might be the fruit of wierwille the false teacher? But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves. Many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of the truth will be maligned; and in their greed they will exploit you with false words; their judgment from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep. II Peter 2:1-3 Harmful and controlling cult-leaders like wierwille have a knack for sabotaging a follower’s cognitive skills. It’s easy to see how that would be like an embedded process of self-deception. It’s more efficient, since the cult-leader does not have to be constantly in front of followers telling them what to think or how to behave. The twisted mindset that followers have dutifully absorbed functions like a mental autopilot. ~ ~ ~ ~ Mike: This process is STILL going on, where people get massively blessed with the collaterals when they take the new TWI foundational class. They get to see the fruit in their lives as they put the content of the collaterals into their Bible reading and lives. T-Bone: Baloney! Are YOU omniscient and omnipresent? How do you know “this process” is still going on? “people get massively blessed” ?!?! But YOU just said you didn’t have the ability to look at the fruit in the lives of others! “blessed with the collaterals when they take the new TWI foundational class” Oh, so you’ve taken the new PFAL Today class? Also, please define “massively blessed” and describe what “fruit” is seen. ~ ~ ~ ~ Mike: Many thousands right this minute are thankful for PFAL and how it helped them. You folks missed this bus, but there is still another one you can catch. It's not too late. It will be too late someday. T-Bone: Baloney! “thousands right this minute” ? Are YOU omniscient and omnipresent? “You folks missed this bus, but there is still another one you can catch” …bus? Did you mean to say motorcoach? Who’s driving and who’s getting diddled in the back? ~ ~ ~ ~ Mike: Coming back to PFAL meekly would work for you folks, if you looked away from your manufactured anti-idol, and looked instead at how to work with God by saturating your minds with the revelation God taught VPW to put into writing to us. T-Bone: Baloney! Baloney! Baloney! Baloney! Spam! (Irrelevant or inappropriate messages sent on the internet to a large number of recipients) “you looked away from your manufactured anti-idol” manufactured anti-idol is an odd concept…fyi – there’s a naturally occurring anti-idol…it’s called cognitive skills…you might want to look into that. “and looked instead at how to work with God by saturating your minds with the revelation God taught VPW to put into writing to us.” Sorry but I have to disagree with you for a couple of reasons: 1. “saturate your mind” is a euphemism for brainwashing…been there, had that done…that’s a “no” for me 2. “the revelation God taught VPW to put into writing to us.” …this baloney / spam subset is 100 % bull$hit and we all know it. some just refuse to admit it. That’s all for now...have a nice day, Mike