T-Bone

If Christ is still absent in PFAL Today , you’ll need a note from the “Doctor” …and to clarify that’s a real note from a fake doctor.

like father cult-leader , like son follower

well... she does have a contemporary look…she must be watching PFAL Today I might have got the pictures mixed up…the first picture I posted must be her grandma taking the 1967 PFAL class… ...yeah that has to be it – I recognize Maggie Muggins on the TV screen...sorry...my bad

Screw job = wierwille “working” the Word Snow job = wierwille selling his screw job technical tip: before screwing up the text, drill a pilot hole first - so the screw goes in easier.

with the double duty of running the class and attending the class as a new student in her efficiency, it was convenient to use her favorite coffee mug…and she didn’t have to stretch the coffee either. judging by the annoyed look on her face I’d say she’s watching session 6 - battle of the senseless

Here’s a comfy remote for running back-to-back PFAL classes zzzzZZZZZ ZZZzzzzzzzZZZZ

metaphorically speaking, if the head is absent, you’re screwed !!!!

There was no class coordinator. Hilda was the only one who signed up for the class. She perused the syllabus. She decided to skip ahead to session 5. With great anticipation she pressed the appropriate button on the remote. “Ah…here it comes” she thought to herself “Absentia in you the hope of nothing”

In 1869, Russian chemist Dmitri Mendeleev created the framework that became the modern periodic table, leaving gaps for elements that were yet to be discovered. It’s a little-known fact that in 1857 Dmitri was already working on a rough draft in his kitchen – he affectionately called it the polka dot table

Even before I went in the corps, I learned from my branch coordinator (corps grad) a good way to judge where the people in your Twig are at is by looking at their abundant sharing. I was told the reasoning behind that was something he had learned from wierwille – something along the lines of when people are blessed by the Word, they open their wallets…and remember God loves a cheerful giver…oh yeah, teach on the law of giving and receiving – you can’t outgive God…teach out of the Christians Should Be Prosperous collateral. WHY the big concern for giving 15% of my earnings to TWI? Does God love cheerful moneygrubbers? ~ ~ ~ ~ Meanwhile in another part of the spacetime continuum: 41 Jesus sat down opposite the place where the offerings were put and watched the crowd putting their money into the temple treasury. Many rich people threw in large amounts. 42 But a poor widow came and put in two very small copper coins, worth only a few cents. 43 Calling his disciples to him, Jesus said, “Truly I tell you, this poor widow has put more into the treasury than all the others. 44 They all gave out of their wealth; but she, out of her poverty, put in everything—all she had to live on.” Mark 12 41-44

wait...where are you going? I was gonna make espresso

Sure I don’t care. Put it in Humor - this stuff gets to be pretty funny sometimes

What’s the diff if it’s in doctrinal or about The Way ? What’s there to misconstrue? Maybe have a little more faith in Grease Spotters. I assume we’re all adults here. Haven’t noticed any kid tossing here and don’t believe I’ve been influenced by every wierwille fan breaking wind. Maybe have a little faith in the Socratic method of GSC’s forums. It could be just the thing for an innocent soul to witness and participate in that will inspire their own cognitive skills to figure out what’s really the problem or problems with TWI. Of course, this is all just my opinion I could be terribly wrong.

No need to - because you're doing it right now

Let’s review and get the details right… I had said: Anything wrong with those guys or letting God the Father / Jesus Christ / The Holy Spirit guide you? I think you may have fell for wierwille's bull$hit line "you can't go beyond what you're taught" says who?!?! wierwille that's who. Besides cognitive skills, I think understanding from God the Father / Jesus Christ / The Holy Spirit is something wierwille did not have a clue about... ~ ~ ~ ~ I never claimed I was unraveling…or explaining…or clearing up any issues with the doctrine of the Trinity. YOU are saying that. Maybe YOU should start reviewing those 66 or so posts I made on that Trinity thread I told you about so YOU can get it straight what I have said about the Trinity. I mean, come on – are you lazy or tired or afraid of listening to someone who has little regard for wierwille’s mischaracterization of Trinitarians? I’ll tell you WHY I said Besides cognitive skills, I think understanding from God the Father / Jesus Christ / The Holy Spirit is something wierwille did not have a clue about…I won’t address wierwille’s poor cognitive skills because myself and other Grease Spotters have gone round and round with you on many threads about his inability to reason, his penchant for plagiarism, and his manipulation of language and Scripture and his goofball definitions – and all you seem to know how to do is disparage the use of critical thinking skills, defend his plagiarism and reinterpret his twisted interpretations of Scripture…that’s like a double-twist I guess ...should we go over the laundry list of wierwille's bad behavior - which must have grieved God/JC/HS but you wish to turn a blind eye to it all...but then again you've already stated God tolerates bad behavior...is TWI paying you good money to defend that little fraudster? inquiring minds want to know. what I will say about his LACK of knowledge and experience of God, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit is what I’ve garnered from wierwille’s own body of work. I mean – didn’t he teach God can only speak to what He is which is spirit? Didn’t he teach God’s spirit teaches His creation in you, which is now your spirit, and your spirit teaches your mind? God can only speak to spirit – but your spirit can speak to your mind? Huh? Didn’t wierwille claim God would teach him the Word like it hadn’t be known since the 1st century? Except they didn’t have the written Word in the 1st century. Didn’t wierwille teach “the Word takes the place of the absent Christ” ? For a charlatan who couldn't discern his way out of a porn video soaking in a 252-gallon vat of Drambuie - I have very little confidence he knew anything about the Bible/ God/Jesus Christ/the Holy Spirit. wierwille was a fraud!

T-Bone’s response: and yet YOU had previously said “Actually, I spent a lot of time working the KJV on the trinity, BEFORE JCNG came out. I had in my research found a few more points of proof beyond what was in that book. He also had some points that I missed. One of my scoops over JCNG regards the Holy Spirit, and I find it very powerful in discussing the trinity and Jesus being God to those in that prison.” That’s very strange – because my statements were: I think you may have fell for wierwille's bull$hit line "you can't go beyond what you're taught" says who?!?! wierwille that's who. Besides cognitive skills, I think understanding from God the Father / Jesus Christ / The Holy Spirit is something wierwille did not have a clue about...maybe stubbornness, moral depravity, seared conscience, pride and delusions of grandeur gunked up his receptivity - I dunno...just a guess ~ ~ ~ ~ I made NO reference to the Trinity in that! Matter of fact, I think the way I intentionally phrased that is probably a good middle ground for Trinitarians and non-Trinitarians to meet. You’ve said it yourself – that you’ve spent over 50 years searching the scriptures (usually KJV) and found PLENTY of verses how God, Jesus Christ, and the gift of holy spirit guide us into understanding … Looks like we’re in agreement on that – so why did YOU launch into the big JCING promo? When you backpedal like this – it makes me think you bring up stuff just to be argumentative.

Mike said: The part you overlooked is how I responded to T-Bone above. He had the same accusation of ignorance and not able to go beyond one man's perspective that you had. Looks like you overlooked his challenge, not knowing I'd answer the same again, thusly: T-Bone had written: "I think you may have fell for wierwille's bull$hit line "you can't go beyond what you're taught" says who?!?! wierwille that's who. ... Besides cognitive skills, I think understanding from God the Father / Jesus Christ / The Holy Spirit is something wierwille did not have a clue about..." Then I answered with: Actually, I spent a lot of time working the KJV on the trinity, BEFORE JCNG came out. I had in my research found a few more points of proof beyond what was in that book. He also had some points that I missed. One of my scoops over JCNG regards the Holy Spirit, and I find it very powerful in discussing the trinity and Jesus being God to those in that prison. I simply ask them "Who fathered Jesus?" Do you know who fathered Jesus? = = == = T-Bone’s response: Oh yeah, I meant to also address these other illogical fallacies of Mike . I said “Besides cognitive skills, I think understanding from God the Father / Jesus Christ / The Holy Spirit is something wierwille did not have a clue about”…It’s almost shocking (but not really, since one of my superpowers is that I am immune to nonsense ). you twist around my reference to the biblical truth (which is plainly stated in various passages) that God the Father, Jesus Christ His Son, or the Holy Spirit all help deepen the faith and understanding of Christians into a reason to launch into an anti-Trinty rant … I’ll leave it up to you to search the Scriptures and find verses that show how God/JC/HS help illuminate our understanding. I know where they are…If you started going over the Trinity – asset or liability thread that I invited you to - you’ll see some of those passages mentioned in my posts. You seem to hold the same overly simplistic mischaracterization of Trinitarians or anyone who happens to mention God, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit in the same breath. Search the Scriptures, Mike Put down your PFAL material for the next 3 months...maybe that will help. A subtopic or expanded topic of this thread could very well be the absence of God the Father, Jesus Christ His Son and the Holy Spirit in wierwille’s theory and practice. Come Mike, you've got some catching up to do

Maybe it’s one of those 6-of-1-half-a-dozen-of-the-other things According to the main forum page: About The Way Ask the Greasespot Cafe About the Way in Europe Discussion about The Way International and its leadership ~ ~ ~ Matters of Faith Doctrinal: Exploring the Bible Atheism, nontheism, skepticism: Questioning Faith Non-Christian Faith in practice: reflections on how we practice what we preach and live what we believe. ~ ~ ~ ~ Now look at OldSkool’s starter post: First off, Biblically speaking, Christ has never been absent...that doctrine does not come close to occuring anywhere in the Bible. Yet the way international teaches the word of God takes the place of the absent Christ. Damnable heresy all the way here. It would be worded better if they just told the truth: The way ministry takes the place of the real Jesus Christ. That holds true across the board for people in the way international. The directors act as the head of the body. The way ministry is considered by the way ministry "the functioning body of Christ"...the way corps stand in the gap....the only gap I have ever known about was the one that was put between God and his people by the sin nature. The real Jesus Christ stands in that gap as the way, the truth, and the life. Jesus Christ died for our sins...not the way international. I could keep going....does anyone have any idea whatsoever where this awful doctrine originated? I have never heard it outside the way ministry. Was this VPW's brainchild? To me this is a very anti-Christ doctrine. Nowhere is Christ ever called absent and nowhere is he replaced by anything. He has all the preeminance. Period. Jesus Christ is the chief corner stone and no other foundation can no man lay. ~ ~ ~ ~ Personally, I think this should stay in About The Way forum – because it gets into the doctrinal & practical shenanigans... and the consequences of The Way International’s leadership – especially wierwille. But that’s just me…I’m not a moderator …besides I tend to think if you move this to doctrinal some big-wierwille-fans will avoid it like the plague cuz who goes there anyway - except to discuss ideas, theology, atheism, and other thoughtful matters. And we know when one does go there the if-you-give-a-mouse-a-cookie principle will happen – one thing leads to another - if one forwards an idea or argues against an idea one should have to back it up with some logic and evidential support – and hopefully they’ll offer more than regurgitated PFAL nonsense we see pushed in About The Way forum.

oh I recognize that nonsense - straight out of the Blue Book - chapter title Release from Your Prisons...starting on pages 6 & ff wierwille uses the camera analogy - that which you focus on bladie blah blah... zoom zoom carry the 2...Meka Leka Hi... ...skip to page 8 "..How have you mentally pictured yourself for the past week, month, year, ten years? The picture that you carry with clearness and concern is what you are, This law works for positive and negative thinking alike."

in an effort to keep all Grease Spotters in the loop concerning subjects of concerns, interests and needs I do hereby bump this thread thereby fulfilling my promise to a certain Grease Spotter

Before anyone gets so self-absorbed that they can’t see the light at the end of Uranus – I’d like to point out another insurrection attempt on this thread. Guess the old has-the-idiom-of-permission-been discussed -on-Grease-Spot ploy didn’t work that well…if at first you don’t derail, try and try again. Now…that being said, I would like to offer an invite to another thread in doctrinal – where theological musings on the Trinity and wierwille’s book JCING would be most appropriate…Here’s the thread The Trinity - asset or liability? I’ll dispense with the formalities and skip right to the I triple-dog-dare you MIKE to participate in the Trinity – asset or liability? thread discussion in doctrinal so you can expound on the details of “I had in my research found a few more points of proof beyond what was in that book. He also had some points that I missed.” I’m looking forward to that! You probably should catch up on the approximately 66 posts I did on that thread - most of which I must confess have a lot of substance, logic, references to Scripture and legitimate scholarly works …at least a lot more than what the thread starter had – and that includes his reference to the Omen films You’ll probably want to review the whole thread – but to show you where I just started to get warmed up, you can look here . Hey, for good measure – I’ll do a cross reference invite – so you’ll see me quoting your post from here on that doctrinal thread. See ya real soon wow wee wow – check this out - here - it's like a wheel within a wheel

how ironic – on a thread about Christ being absent from wierwille’s theology this post of yours actually concurs with that theme. Malachi 3 talks of two legitimate authorized messengers - John the Baptist and Jesus Christ – I’m assuming you’ve heard of them: “I will send my messenger, who will prepare the way before me. Then suddenly the Lord you are seeking will come to his temple; the messenger of the covenant, whom you desire, will come,” says the Lord Almighty. ~ ~ ~ ~ Anything wrong with those guys or letting God the Father / Jesus Christ / The Holy Spirit guide you? I think you may have fell for wierwille's bull$hit line "you can't go beyond what you're taught" says who?!?! wierwille that's who. Besides cognitive skills, I think understanding from God the Father / Jesus Christ / The Holy Spirit is something wierwille did not have a clue about...maybe stubbornness, moral depravity, seared conscience, pride and delusions of grandeur gunked up his receptivity - I dunno...just a guess that's all for now

Thought I’d reference that other thread again – the post that inspired me to look more into the idiom of permission – here And I’m reposting below what I recently said on that thread ( here ) ... if you want to check the hyperlinks in the reposting below you'll have to go to my post on the Absent Christ thread...anyway here it is: It seems to me you’re trying to reconceptualize the book of Job with a confirmation bias I suspect you may have. I’m aware that you tend to interpret or recall information in a way that supports your belief in the value of wierwille / PFAL. wierwille often interpreted the Bible through several myopic lenses – a couple of which are fundamentalism and spiritualism. That much is evident by your comments. wierwille’s tendency to enforce his rigid dogma and pretentious pseudo-spirituality never failed to play havoc with the linguistic and cultural resources embedded in the Bible. NIV Cultural Backgrounds Study Bible: Bringing to Life the Ancient World of Scripture editors John H. Walton and Craig S. Keener offers some scholarly insight of the book of Job & Kings – on pages 615, 819 and 820. Here are verses in I Kings 22 and Job 1 that speak of a spiritual assembly that the study Bible addresses on those pages: 19 Micaiah continued, “Therefore hear the word of the Lord: I saw the Lord sitting on his throne with all the multitudes of heaven standing around him on his right and on his left. 20 And the Lord said, ‘Who will entice Ahab into attacking Ramoth Gilead and going to his death there?’ “One suggested this, and another that. 21 Finally, a spirit came forward, stood before the Lord and said, ‘I will entice him.’ 22 “‘By what means?’ the Lord asked. “‘I will go out and be a deceiving spirit in the mouths of all his prophets,’ he said. “‘You will succeed in enticing him,’ said the Lord. ‘Go and do it.’ 23 “So now the Lord has put a deceiving spirit in the mouths of all these prophets of yours. The Lord has decreed disaster for you.” I Kings 22:19-23 ~ ~ ~ ~ One day the angels came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came with them. The Lord said to Satan, “Where have you come from?” Job 1:6 ~ ~ ~ ~ My summary of The NIV Cultural Backgrounds Study Bible comments on the above verses: In the ancient world, most cultures believed in many gods, imagining that the business of the gods was done in council – as typically happened in human governance. Unlike Israel’s understanding of Yahweh, the gods of other cultures had no overarching plan – it seems most decisions were made ad hoc. This corporate operation reflected an idea in the ancient world that one’s identity was found in their community. Just as the most significant identity is in one’s own clan, so the gods also acted in corporate solidarity. The idea that the gods operated in community, however posed serious problems in Israel’s theology, in which only Yahweh had the ultimate divine authority over all other “gods”. Israel’s theology did not eradicate the concept of a divine council from their thinking – instead the council was transformed. Rather than being comprised of various gods, the council featured the “sons of God” over whom Yahweh presided and whose activities he delegated. These council members were not considered gods with autonomous divine authority equal to Yahweh’s. Rather they were spirit beings given a role in Yahweh’s governance of the world. This may also lend credence to the idiom of permission. The pantheon of gods was often characterized by a hierarchy - cosmic gods, national gods, city patrons, clan deities, ancestral deities - and also differentiated by jurisdiction, manifestations ( NOT the PFAL kind file:///C:/Users/techj/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image001.gif ) and attributes. We can surmise that it was very difficult for the Israelites to adjust to a single God spanning all levels of hierarchy and all categories of jurisdiction. Another factor that debunks wierwille’s literal interpretation of the divine council in Job is that every time the word “Satan” occurs in Job it is preceded by the definite article “hassatan”. This is strong evidence that satan is NOT a personal name, because Hebrew does not put a definite article in front of personal names. There’s little reason to equate this character with the devil since it can be used to describe other individuals by function – Numbers 22:22; I Samuel 29:4; I Kings 5:4; 11:14, 23, 25; Psalm 109:6. God’s policies are the true focus of the challenge in the divine council. Job’s character is only the test case. The challenge therefore does not necessarily imply some flaw in God or Job. Central to the book of Job is the question of human suffering – especially why people who are seemingly innocent suffer, which in turn raises the question about the righteousness of a loving God. Job deals with the question of retribution, the popular theology that the righteous prosper but the wicked suffer – this attempts to vindicate God – theodicy . Wisdom accounts of innocent suffering are found across the ancient Near East – which shows a universal concern from olden times and is still a contemporary issue. Hope that helps

It seems to me you’re trying to reconceptualize the book of Job with a confirmation bias I suspect you may have. I’m aware that you tend to interpret or recall information in a way that supports your belief in the value of wierwille / PFAL. wierwille often interpreted the Bible through several myopic lenses – a couple of which are fundamentalism and spiritualism. That much is evident by your comments. wierwille’s tendency to enforce his rigid dogma and pretentious pseudo-spirituality never failed to play havoc with the linguistic and cultural resources embedded in the Bible. NIV Cultural Backgrounds Study Bible: Bringing to Life the Ancient World of Scripture editors John H. Walton and Craig S. Keener offers some scholarly insight of the book of Job & Kings – on pages 615, 819 and 820. Here are verses in I Kings 22 and Job 1 that speak of a spiritual assembly that the study Bible addresses on those pages: 19 Micaiah continued, “Therefore hear the word of the Lord: I saw the Lord sitting on his throne with all the multitudes of heaven standing around him on his right and on his left. 20 And the Lord said, ‘Who will entice Ahab into attacking Ramoth Gilead and going to his death there?’ “One suggested this, and another that. 21 Finally, a spirit came forward, stood before the Lord and said, ‘I will entice him.’ 22 “‘By what means?’ the Lord asked. “‘I will go out and be a deceiving spirit in the mouths of all his prophets,’ he said. “‘You will succeed in enticing him,’ said the Lord. ‘Go and do it.’ 23 “So now the Lord has put a deceiving spirit in the mouths of all these prophets of yours. The Lord has decreed disaster for you.” I Kings 22:19-23 ~ ~ ~ ~ One day the angels came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came with them. The Lord said to Satan, “Where have you come from?” Job 1:6 ~ ~ ~ ~ My summary of The NIV Cultural Backgrounds Study Bible comments on the above verses: In the ancient world, most cultures believed in many gods, imagining that the business of the gods was done in council – as typically happened in human governance. Unlike Israel’s understanding of Yahweh, the gods of other cultures had no overarching plan – it seems most decisions were made ad hoc. This corporate operation reflected an idea in the ancient world that one’s identity was found in their community. Just as the most significant identity is in one’s own clan, so the gods also acted in corporate solidarity. The idea that the gods operated in community, however posed serious problems in Israel’s theology, in which only Yahweh had the ultimate divine authority over all other “gods”. Israel’s theology did not eradicate the concept of a divine council from their thinking – instead the council was transformed. Rather than being comprised of various gods, the council featured the “sons of God” over whom Yahweh presided and whose activities he delegated. These council members were not considered gods with autonomous divine authority equal to Yahweh’s. Rather they were spirit beings given a role in Yahweh’s governance of the world. This may also lend credence to the idiom of permission. The pantheon of gods was often characterized by a hierarchy - cosmic gods, national gods, city patrons, clan deities, ancestral deities - and also differentiated by jurisdiction, manifestations ( NOT the PFAL kind ) and attributes. We can surmise that it was very difficult for the Israelites to adjust to a single God spanning all levels of hierarchy and all categories of jurisdiction. Another factor that debunks wierwille’s literal interpretation of the divine council in Job is that every time the word “Satan” occurs in Job it is preceded by the definite article “hassatan”. This is strong evidence that satan is NOT a personal name, because Hebrew does not put a definite article in front of personal names. There’s little reason to equate this character with the devil since it can be used to describe other individuals by function – Numbers 22:22; I Samuel 29:4; I Kings 5:4; 11:14, 23, 25; Psalm 109:6. God’s policies are the true focus of the challenge in the divine council. Job’s character is only the test case. The challenge therefore does not necessarily imply some flaw in God or Job. Central to the book of Job is the question of human suffering – especially why people who are seemingly innocent suffer, which in turn raises the question about the righteousness of a loving God. Job deals with the question of retribution, the popular theology that the righteous prosper but the wicked suffer – this attempts to vindicate God – theodicy . Wisdom accounts of innocent suffering are found across the ancient Near East – which shows a universal concern from olden times and is still a contemporary issue. Hope that helps

Just to clarify – the wierwille stuff is the pseudo-Christian cult equivalent of Apocrypha – colloquially referred to as Awful-pocrypha by some survivors of the pseudo-Christian cult The Way International. Similarities to Apocrypha are striking – since the core elements of wierwille’s awful-doctrines are considered Advanced Class secrets hidden within gosh-awful-long indoctrinating classes. Considered the greatest secret in way-world today because they are the vehicles of esoteric knowledge considered too profound or too sacred to be disclosed to anyone other than the initiated who are willing to fork over money, resources and time. Coincidentally the term Apocrypha and wierwille’s Awful-pocrypha have been applied to writings and classes that were hidden – or later ignored - not because of their claims of divinity but because of their questionable value to the real church. In general use, the word apocrypha and wierwille’s Awful-pocrypha have come to mean "false, spurious, bad, or PFAL-ish". John Juedes and other decoders of wierwille’s Awful-pocrypha , like many on Grease Spot Café are known for sorting out the bull$hit after it’s already hit the fan.