T-Bone

Careful…that’s not cookies in those jars!

8 But what saith the sales rep? A class is nigh thee, even in thy city, and in thy home: that is, the PFAL faith, which we preach; 9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth PFAL is Lord, and shalt believe in thine heart that indoctrination ain’t dead, thou shalt be brainwashed. 10 For with the heart students believeth propaganda; and with the mouth confession is made unto programming. 11 For the syllabus saith, whosoever believeth ‘four crucified’ shall not be embarrassed during listening with a purpose questions. 12 There is no difference between all without exception and all without distinction. 13 Whosoever shall be called upon to answer must quote ‘the teacher’ verbatim. 14 How then shall they be called upon if they are absent from class? 15 And they are $hit out of luck to get a refund. 16 That was part of the deal if they would not endure the class. 17 So then no fate cometh as quoth the Terminator franchise. Omens 10: 8 - 17

Many PFAL ‘completers’ transition to PFAL repeaters.

Processing… badoink… whirrrrrrrr… click… click… LoShanta is as LoShanta does… Elaborazione… passaggio alla modalità numeri romani others crucified with Jesus Christ

Maybe someday AI will be able to tackle the really tough math problems. Two thieves in Matthew, two thieves in Mark. Two malefactors in Luke. Two others in John. Processing… Processing… Processing… Processing... There were eight others crucified with Jesus Christ.

In my opinion it takes one person at a time – the counteragent for a cult’s groupthink mindset, is when a person begins to think for themselves. To me it’s a freaky and somewhat terrifying thing to look with probing eyes at a supposedly beautiful tapestry of truths…when I said to myself damn the torpedoes, let me really think about this or that…let me dust off some red flags I’ve ignored for years…then…then the web of deceit began to unknot. I don’t think it has to start at the top – although that’s probably where it starts for most people. It was for me. In the aftermath of patriarch paper…crisis management and certain upper leadership vying for power – that was enough to make me start to doubt and question wierwille and LCM...It doesn’t always have to start with the glaring problems of top leadership. We’ve all know folks who took PFAL but didn’t stick around long – maybe they didn’t become so enamored with wierwille or LCM – maybe they just left because they saw through a lot of the bull-$hit and hype of PFAL...well good for them! It's so complicated – the love-bombing and a sense of belonging drew many of us into a harmful and controlling cult. But the only way out is for the person to look past stuff like that…it’s hard to break ranks ALL BY YOURSELF…you switch sides on the us-versus-them dichotomy…from being on the us-side to the them-side. it’s probably one of the toughest decisions I’ve ever made in my life…funny isn’t it – you have lots of company on the journey into a cult...but you leave it alone. ~ ~ ~ ~ Understanding cult-involvement and cult-disentanglement are two very fascinating subjects! There’s so much soft-sell tactics that come into play which subtly persuades one to buy into TWI’s ideology…And realistically there’s no one cut-and-dried method for ensnaring folks in a harmful and controlling cult. There are so many variables to consider like one’s personality, social needs…usually new recruits are young and naïve so critical thinking skills are not really developed…and the road to indoctrination is not shock therapy but rather a gradual immersion. It’s like a prolonged seductive intoxicating “romance”…a cult luring neophytes to take bigger and bigger sips of the Kool-Aid…using manipulative tactics like love-bombing, the subtle influence of peer pressure and groupthink. There’s the claims and promise of getting solid answers about life, having a purpose, God, politics, marriage, finances, whatever… ...those with low self-esteem are usually drawn to a cult-environment where they seem to be readily accepted – sadly people with low self-esteem are usually easier to break mentally / emotionally...that was me for sure “Fortunately,” for them the cult is there as just the perfect supportive environment they’ve been looking for – and along those lines a cult member can learn to feel superior to those not in the cult – an us-versus-them mentality develops and a cult follower starts isolating themselves from family and friends not in the cult – and eventually the new social ties within the cult satisfy a basic desire we all have – to belong. ...a TWI-follower's personal boundaries are softened and eventually encroached upon by those who take advantage of their own position of power and authority...malicious and self-centered leaders have a way of getting victims to think that catering to any leader’s needs – whatever they may be. Leaders can always pull the renewed mind card and work on persuading the victim they are spiritually mature enough to handle it. ~ ~ ~ ~ Rocky mentioned the Allens, Waydale and Kristen’s book. I think why those are instrumental in waking people up is because there’s something in them that resonates with folks. Maybe they had similar experiences and knew someone who did but it was all hush-hush or they dismissed it as devilish rumors to hurt the ministry. ~ ~ ~ ~ Again, I just want to make the point it comes down to each person having to make up their own minds if they’ve reached a tipping point – when it seems like all the red flags, bad experiences, logical fallacies and exploitations are unstoppable as they keep rushing to the forefront of your mind. You’ve got to do something to make them stop. To stay put where you are, would be to live a lie. To try and ignore when you sense others are dealing with similar issues isn’t easy – especially if being detached from others is not your thing. Think about why you choose or refuse something. Many times, it’s probably over customer referrals or customer complaints. That’s resonance – you’re connecting with someone else’s experience. One of our greatest assets is the freedom to choose our response in any situation. Around 2005 I read a great book which I still review once and awhile - Changing Minds: The Art and Science of Changing Our Own and Other People's Minds by Howard Gardner . He said: The phenomenon of changing minds is one of the least examined and – I would claim – least understood of familiar human experiences. He says in his book that his focus is on changes of the mind that occur CONSCIOUSLY as a result of forces that can be IDENTIFIED - in the book he notes 7 factors for changing minds . One of those factors is resonance. That’s why Grease Spot Café is important – people connect with others who have had similar bad experiences, questions, doubts. the counteragent for a cult’s groupthink mindset, is when a person begins to think for themselves. Be brave oh probing eyes at a cult’s beautiful tapestry of truths…dust off those forgotten red flags…keep looking…thinking…enquiring and that tapestry will unravel.

Yikes! well… …my comments were in reference just to the linked article you mentioned, and that was mostly about doctrine / theory and NOT practice…shows you what I know.

Hi Charity, to answer your question - yes I have - explanation to follow . Thanks for the hyperlink – I have copied that to a laptop file for further analysis sometime in the near future – I have several light and heavy reading and studying projects going on right now…However, I did copy and paste some excerpts below – it’s in my standard bold blue font to indicate it’s copied from the noted source…rather than offering a point-by-point critique I chose to designate dubious sections in bold red font. Grease Spotters can draw their own conclusions from this article. I will leave you all with two thoughts: 1. Check out the 2 links I gave in previous post: eschatology discussion by Dr. Heiser prophecy and eschatology: the rapture by Dr. Heiser and when I say check them out – it might take a little work (depending on how much one has bought into wierwille’s teachings like 4 crucified, the Holy Spirit/holy spirit, 6 cocks-a-crowing where he would join different passages together that shouldn’t be – or split the same account into separate events – you’ll see what I mean about being “a joiner” or a “splitter” once you listen to Heiser’s prophecy + eschatology: rapture You Tube.). 2. In light of the title of this thread – I’m sure a lot of cult-survivors who read this article will see similarities of IHOP with TWI as far as generating a spiritual elitism attitude, manipulative jargon, and ‘self-assuming greatness’. ~ ~ ~ ~ Excerpts from the Christian Research Institute hyperlink: …Today, the primary interpretative systems of biblical eschatology are known as premillennialism, postmillennialism, and amillennialism,9 and within these distinct systems there are varying perspectives. Bickle identifies his end-time teaching as an exclusive brand of premillennialism that he calls “apostolic premillennialism.” Apostolic Premillennialism Bickle distinguishes his apostolic premillennialism from dispensational premillennialism by rejecting a pretribulation rapture for a conquering church that prays and ministers through Revelation’s Great Tribulation, resulting in the salvation of Israel and the largest mission harvest in history. Otherwise, Bickle’s apostolic premillennialism differs little from dispensational premillennialism and incorporates many of the core interpretative and chronological scenarios popularized by Hal Lindsey. These include, for example, a literalist hermeneutic of the Book of Revelation, separate redemptive plans for Israel and the church, a personal Antichrist leading a revived Roman empire and one-world government, a rebuilt Jerusalem temple and reinstituted sacrificial system, the mark of the beast as a microchip implanted in the hand or forehead, a seven-year Great Tribulation, and the earthly millennial reign of Jesus following His second coming. Bickle uses the adjective “apostolic” in describing his premillennialism in an effort to emphasize the kind of church he is laboring to build. He believes he is preparing an army of Christians who will triumph during the soon-coming crisis of the Antichrist’s global rule and the Great Tribulation. He preaches a self-identified apostolic Christianity characterized by intimacy with Jesus as bridegroom, wholehearted fulfillment of the Great Commandment, self-denial holiness, Sermon-on-the-Mount living, Holy Spirit empowerment, justice, fasting, prayer, and worship. Whereas Bickle has taught many of these worthy topics since the 1980s, my primary concern is that in the last couple of years he has begun to reteach them, wrapping them tightly in his exclusive end-time teaching and his distinct interpretation of the Book of Revelation. Forerunner Eschatology You don’t have to be around the IHOP movement very long before you are exposed to a large glossary of insider terms and phrases, such as wilderness lifestyle, friend of the Bridegroom, Daniel anointing, eating the scroll, fasted lifestyle, burning and shining lamps, wholehearted lovers, zones of glory, corridor of glory, and many more that could be added.18 A cautionary red light should go on whenever we discover any church or Christian movement creating, and extensively using, their own exclusive language. The habitual use of insider language by a Christian movement can develop a we-are-different culture vis-a-vis the greater church. Soon a person’s use of prescribed terms and phrases is the way to determine whether they are true “insiders.” It can also easily create a “us” and “them” attitude within the Body of Christ. Many Christians living within such a cloistered culture can often find it difficult to leave or relate with other Christians, who do not speak “their language,” and who are frequently seen as spiritually lukewarm or compromising. This becomes especially disconcerting when most inside a Christian movement begin to “talk alike” and parrot the same terms and phrases in their prayers and songs. This emerging reality at IHOP can be demonstrated by listening to the rapid prayer times in their “Prayer Room” or to the lyrics of the songs of IHOP’s quality worship musicians and singers. More than all of IHOP’s inside terms, however, it is the word “forerunner” that is nearly ubiquitous. Among IHOP’s ministries, there is the Forerunner Christian Fellowship, Forerunner Music Academy, Forerunner School of Ministry, Forerunner Media School, Forerunner Evangelism, and Forerunner Books. It is safe to say that “forerunner” is the brand name of Bickle’s IHOP ministry. The use of the word “forerunner” is no accident. In fact, “forerunner eschatology” provides the greatest insight into the inner ethos and ministry thrust of Bickle and IHOP. Although Bickle admits that Christians can’t predict the exact “day or hour” of Jesus’ second coming, he firmly claims that we can know the specific “season” of His return and boldly tells his followers that he believes the end of the world will unfold in this generation. In light of Bickle’s conviction that we are living in the generation of Jesus’ second coming, he preaches that, as God raised up John the Baptist to be a forerunner preparing his generation for Jesus’ first coming, God is now raising up an elite end-time forerunner movement within the church. This movement will prepare this generation for the soon-coming Great Tribulation and Jesus’ return. Bickle believes God has anointed him to call forth and train these end-time Christian forerunners. He is praying for thousands of last-days “forerunner Christians” to be raised up within this generation as special prophetic voices that will emerge in the spirit and power of Elijah and defeat the Antichrist’s soon-coming one-world government and religion by praying the “battle plan” of the Book of Revelation. The End-Time Forerunner Church Bickle teaches that Jesus’ second coming can be delayed or sped up according to the degree of the church’s spiritual maturity and readiness. He declares that most Christians are waiting passively for Jesus to return, when in actuality, Jesus is waiting for the church to prepare itself as the pure Bride of Christ and to ready itself to launch the last-day divine war to drive evil from the earth and cleanse it so that it can be filled with God’s love and glory. Bickle does not simply preach that the church will go through the Great Tribulation sealed by God’s sovereign power, but that the end-time church will actually cause God’s judgments to be released on the earth through prophetic prayer. In other words, the end-time praying church will not simply be helpless martyrs during the Great Tribulation; it will victoriously establish justice on the earth by releasing the devastating Great Tribulation judgments on the Antichrist’s global evil empire. At the end of December 2008, Bickle ratcheted up his end-time enthusiasm by passionately announcing that IHOP’s OneThing Conference would mark a major defining moment within the IHOP prayer movement, and would primarily center around his interpretation and implementation of the Book of Revelation. Bickle declared that it was time for the prayer movement to realize that it will be the primary agent to transition human history to the age to come through “prayers of faith that not only heal, but also kill,” releasing the heavenly arsenals through intercession that will strike the Antichrist’s political, military, and economic power bases across the earth. The end times will reveal a “killing Jesus” who is covered with blood as He marches through Jordan to free Jerusalem while engaging the Antichrist’s army in physical combat. Based on Bickle’s end-time teaching, Jesus’ second coming has preconditions. He teaches that Jesus will not return until the global church is crying out “Come, Lord Jesus” with a full understanding of her identity as the Bride of Christ. Jesus will only return when the church is functioning in the unity of the Spirit and is anointed in prayer to release the destructive end-time tribulation judgments. Bickle envisions that the end-time forerunner church will be an advanced “apostolic” movement. They will experience “greater things” than the apostles themselves. They will function as the last day Moses who through prayer releases God’s plagues on the Antichrist, the end-time Pharaoh. Bickle emphasizes that during the end times, Moses’ miracles and the miracles of the Book of Acts will be combined and multiplied on a global level as the praying church looses God’s judgments on the earth. This is why Bickle calls the Book of Revelation the “End-Times Book of Acts,” meaning that the Book of Revelation reveals the acts of the Holy Spirit that will be demonstrated through the end-time praying church. Bickle goes even further to add another eschatological interpretive twist to Matthew 16:18–19: “I will build my church, and the gates of hell will not overcome it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.” He claims that Jesus’ statement refers to the end-time church’s possession of the keys of the kingdom through prayer that will drive hell off the planet during the Great Tribulation. The church will exercise binding and loosing end-time authority over God’s judgments assuring that the gates of hell—the Antichrist’s evil empire—will not prevail.31 Forerunner “Wilderness Lifestyle” Bickle engages in another eschatological twist of the Bible when he exhorts Christians to follow the representative example of John the Baptist and dedicate themselves to live a sacrificial “wilderness lifestyle” of fasting and prayer so that they can emerge one day as “forerunner voices” prior to Jesus’ second coming. Bickle claims that “on May 7, 1997, the Lord spoke to me about believing Him to raise up 10,000 forerunners who live in the spirit of John the Baptist as friends of the Bridegroom (Jn 3:29).”… …The End-Time Prayer Movement There is nothing more central to Bickle’s eschatology than his teaching concerning the end-time prayer and prophetic movement. Building on the 24/7 prayer example of the historic Moravians and the contemporary South Korean practice of fervent prayer and consecrated prayer mountains, IHOP is spreading a passion for intercessory prayer and worship throughout the church… End of excerpts from Forerunner Eschatology: Mike Bickle's End-Time Teaching and the International House of Prayer - Christian Research Institute (equip.org) (https://www.equip.org/articles/forerunner-eschatology/) ~ ~ ~ ~ Some random thoughts. I don't want to give anyone the idea I put Bickle in the same class as wierwille who was a harmful and controlling cult-leader. Some of Bickle's theology / theory / practices are suspect in my opinion - but that's due to differing point of view on my part. I know nothing of Bickle's personal behavior - and in such cases I give people a benefit of a doubt - assuming they practice what they preach - unlike wierwille the supreme hypocrite.

Great post, Charity !!!! I learn so much from reading about how others navigate this unusual journey through often treacherous waters. End times is a toughie – and on stuff like that I consider all options on the table until I find definitive proof something is untenable…this year I’ve been checking out some of the late Dr. Heiser’s stuff and currently I’m leaning more towards the idea that “the rapture” is a misunderstanding of certain Scriptures that may be addressing the same concept presented in the book of Revelation…here’s a couple of hyperlinks as food for thought: Eschatology Series by Dr. Michael Heiser Prophecy and Eschatology: the Rapture by Dr. Michael Heiser Even if "the rapture" doctrine is correct - TWI misused it to encourage people to take no thought about the future - because it could happen any second - with addendum thoughts like since we're going to heaven anyway you can do whatever you want now - one can interpret that anyway you want - but for those who have deadened consciences it could mean they can live like the devil! I like to think of myself as tech support for and with the sinners and saints…or TSFAWTSAS for short. That’s not to say I know a lot – just that I figured out how a few things work – and so have others – and using the fundamentalist’s dichotomy of sinners and saints, I learn from others no matter their belief system and like to share what I’ve learned…it’s a whole give-and-take thing.

Grads of PFAL It just occurred to me you all may have uncovered … or discovered - depending on the situation with the covers - a cultic euphemism …or for those who are morally ‘loosened up’ and like to get jiggy with the jargon (ewww…just ewwww). euphemism = a mild or indirect word or expression substituted for one considered to be too harsh or blunt when referring to something unpleasant or embarrassing."“downsizing” as a euphemism for cuts" The Bible speaks of believers who have died as fallen asleep in Christ. Being called a PFAL grad is a nice way to say that one is stuck in an endless cycle of indoctrination…what comes to mind is an action-packed 2014 film Edge of Tomorrow and has the tag line live…die…repeat

Well…that would impress the hell out of me…your tombstone should read He was a class act As a big fan of yours, I’d like to be the eugoogalizer at your funeral - I’ve already got it together: Alas poor Chockfull… he knew that he knew that he knew the PFAL class was priceless and by that he meant it was worthless

Really cool, Twinky and that’s a big difference from the TWI model! What comes to mind is Galatians: All they asked was that we should continue to remember the poor, the very thing I had been eager to do all along...Galatians 2:10 As an organization – supposedly a ministry – a ‘church’ – one of the most important attributes is being charitable – and TWI does not have that!

I’d rather not start that vicious cycle again …I don’t like it when I sense certain wierwille fans may be trying to guilt-trip me for : 1. not looking past all of wierwille’s shortcomings and 2. Going in the way corps and following the man of god’s exact orders. But then again - I’m a glutton for punishment so maybe I will ask him… …and gluttony is a sin…that’s part of that viscious cycle I guess.

My oh my…we’ve come a long way from the 1942 promise, God’s audible voice, snow covered gas pumps, a guy with a lame arm, plagiarized material, doggie porn and molesting women …oh…I’m sorry - just trying to remember why I was supposed to trust and believe wierwille.

When the Lord was about to take Elijah up to heaven in a whirlwind, Elijah and Elisha were on their way from Gilgal. Elijah said to Elisha, “Stay here; the Lord has sent me to Bethel.” As they were walking along and talking together, suddenly a chariot of fire and horses of fire appeared and separated the two of them, and Elijah went up to heaven in a whirlwind. Elisha saw this and cried out, “My father! My father! The chariots and horsemen of Israel!” And Elisha saw him no more. Then he took hold of his garment and tore it in two. Later, Joseph of Arimathea asked Pilate for the body of Jesus. Now Joseph was a disciple of Jesus, but secretly because he feared the Jewish leaders. With Pilate’s permission, he came and took the body away. He was accompanied by Nicodemus, the man who earlier had visited Jesus at night. Nicodemus brought a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about seventy-five pounds. Taking Jesus’ body, the two of them wrapped it, with the spices, in strips of linen. This was in accordance with Jewish burial customs. At the place where Jesus was crucified, there was a garden, and in the garden a new tomb, in which no one had ever been laid. Because it was the Jewish day of Preparation and since the tomb was nearby, they laid Jesus there. For Christ also suffered for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit, in whom He also went and preached to the spirits in prison

About eight days after Jesus said this, he took Peter, John and James with him and went up onto a mountain to pray. As he was praying, the appearance of his face changed, and his clothes became as bright as a flash of lightning. Two men, Moses and Elijah, appeared in glorious splendor, talking with Jesus. They spoke about his departure, which he was about to bring to fulfillment at Jerusalem. Peter and his companions were very sleepy, but when they became fully awake, they saw his glory and the two men standing with him. As the men were leaving Jesus, Peter said to him, “Master, it is good for us to be here. Let us put up three shelters—one for you, one for Moses and one for Elijah.” (He did not know what he was saying.) While he was speaking, a cloud appeared and covered them, and they were afraid as they entered the cloud. A voice came from the cloud, saying, “This is my Son, whom I have chosen; listen to him.” When the voice had spoken, they found that Jesus was alone. The disciples kept this to themselves and did not tell anyone at that time what they had seen.

First off, since I am unsure if there is consciousness after death as I expressed previously > my March 30th 2023 9:55 PM post on death, and where does the soul / spirit go and > my April 4th 2023 7:12 PM post defining consciousness is the $64,000 question! so, not sure if I meet the requirements for your survey. Secondly, as far as I know anyway - there was never a National Israelite Enquirer issue with the headline JESUS RAISES FRIEND FROM THE DEAD – BUT FRIEND IS UNGRATEFUL! …however, I could be mistaken...let me check on my collection of back issues of NIE…next to the pile of old Way Magazines – I’ll get back to you if I find something.

Wow wee wow…doubling down on stupidity…okay…think about who you’re talking about and the sequence and context of the situation - obviously you did not REALLY notice what the text informs us about - Jesus was LED by the Spirit TO BE TEMPTED BY the DEVIL…obviously Jesus knew what was going on and who He was dealing with…one of the many lessons we can draw out of this account is to learn to be discerning like Jesus - wish I wasn’t so naive in ‘74 when I took PFAL and fell for all the bull-$hit deceptive teachings of wierwille!

I think your speculation is pure ‘fantasy’ . There is NOTHING in the temptations recorded in Matthew 4 and Luke 4 that even remotely suggests what Jesus thought or why He continued the conversation…and it’s shameful you have such a low opinion of Jesus Christ – as well as projecting your own stupidity into the text. You’re trying to convince me that it took a couple of rounds of temptations for it to become obvious to Jesus that He was talking to a deceiver ?!?! OMG Mike you so funny!

tricked = to deceive someone, often as a part of a plan. Sounds like you have a conspiracy theory on this. Please provide scriptural evidence to support your theory that someone or some group had infiltrated the Jewish community and had a scheme to get Israelites to think dead people can talk...no essays please - just Scripture will do.

fantasy = the power or process of creating especially unrealistic or improbable mental images in response to psychological need. metaphor = a figure of speech in which a word or phrase is applied to an object or action to which it is not literally applicable. fantasize on developing your own definitions of fantasy and metaphor.

apparently you STILL have a misunderstanding of not only ADAN but the Lazarus parable Please provide historical evidence for The Jesus Show, preferably specific Parables Reel. So far you've presented a gag reel of dubious origin... time-traveling Tik Toks will be acceptable provided Jerusalem et al - both past and present don't have any security concerns and restrictions to you posting those Tik Toks. training = the action of teaching a person a particular skill or type of behavior. who was providing the centuries of this twisted training ? Do you have documentation / evidence to support that assertion? Are you the spokesperson for Jesus' intentions? Please provide Scripture references to show people loved Jesus' parables. Meditate on what providing this documentation means...it does NOT mean a long essay.

I believe you are correct, Exidor. Sheol is used some 66 times in the OT, translated as realm of the dead or grave…I find it fascinating that ancient Israel was not interested in the dead – the way other ancient cultures were…makes me think of books of Job and Ecclesiastes – Yahweh is not God of the dead but of the living…they walked by faith in this life…not to read too much into it – but was there an underlying thought that what followed after one’s life was relatively unimportant? Don’t mind me – just thinking out loud here. Hades mentioned in the parable of Luke 16 is usually associated with the eternal place of punishment as seen in Luke 10:15 and Matthew 11:20 - 24 . Luke 16 has several parables and as you mentioned we’re not supposed to understand them as literal. So, they’re not true to fact but to principle – with the principle of reversal as shown in Luke 16: 27, 28 – reminding people they should repent while they still can (while they’re still alive. ~ ~ ~ ~ Way I dig your picture of Exidor. He was one of my favorite recurring characters on Mork and Mindy…one episode, Mork returned home and was repeating Exidor’s instructions even mimicking his delivery: all aliens must report to the immigraaaaaation bureau…oh and excuse my bad manners I should have welcomed you to Grease Spot with nanu nanu.

Seriously? then resurrection is for optional accessory?

That’s not what I asked