T-Bone

Canon New Oxford American Dictionary noun A collection or list of sacred books accepted as genuine the works of a particular author or artist that are recognized as genuine. the list of works considered to be permanently established as being of the highest quality Canon Cambridge Dictionary noun The writings or other works that are generally agreed to be good, important, and worth studying. Canon Merriam-Webster Dictionary noun a: an authoritative list of books accepted as Holy Scripture b: the authentic works of a writer c: a sanctioned or accepted group or body of related works must be an echo in here

12 G. wierwille’s erroneous trichotomy has fostered elitism in TWI-followers My short rebuttal of wierwille’s trichotomy doctrine (humankind was originally a 3-part being of body, soul, and spirit) is that humankind never lost the image and likeness of God in Genesis 3. wierwille asserts the image and likeness of God is spirit from verses like Genesis 1:26, 27 However there are passages written after the fall of humankind which indicate man still retains the image and likeness of God – though in light of sin that image is now tarnished Genesis 9:6 James 3:9 wierwille’s trichotomy doctrine was expanded upon – I think it was Craig who derogatively referred to those who are not born-again Christians as “empties floating by...Advanced Class grads and way corps were usually prone to adopt this elitist attitude that they were superior to anyone not in TWI. ~ ~ ~ ~ *FYI - I’ve started a thread in doctrinal that expands on this point – Human nature and the fall - all Grease Spotters are invited to participate. come on - it could be fun

Human nature and aspects of the Fall Human nature has always fascinated me – and not for any profound reason other than I desired to better understand myself and others. What are the fundamental characteristics of humankind? What does being human entail? In 1971 as a musician and fine arts major in college I think I had an undeclared mission of exploring what it means to be human – which would then be expressed in my music and art. Being young, naïve, idealistic and intrigued by the counterculture of my generation, I was a prime candidate for a fundamentalist-type-pseudo-Christian cult like The Way International. I joined them in 1974, initiated into the ranks by the PFAL class. Pretty soon I was whole hog committed taking every class they offered and participating in various programs. I… …we were going to change the world by spreading “The Word” …which became synonymous with the PFAL class. For me, the PFAL class was like a primer - that presented the most basic elements on a variety of subjects. I viewed it this way – because of the authoritative manner in which wierwille “the teacher” presented the material and because it was obviously considered trustworthy by all PFAL grads. The reason I’m starting this thread is not just to share a few ideas but also solicit the help of Grease Spotters in exploring human nature and the fall of humankind. Why? Because human nature still fascinates me for the same self-centered and other-oriented reasons I mentioned above – to better understand myself and others. Only this time around – after some 36 years of being free of TWI’s ideological prison – I look at things differently than the aberrant and obfuscating interpretation of certain Christian doctrines wierwille offered on human nature and the fall of humankind. wierwille’s teaching on this stuff is problematic. I see the biggest issue as being his literal approach to interpreting the Bible coupled with a type of spiritualism . Comprised of wierwille’s theories, speculations, and stuff he garnered from charismatics and books/videos about psychic phenomena and embodied in wierwille’s Advanced Class. wierwille’s brand of spiritualism became the standard for decision-making and by which to judge others. I find wierwille’s literal interpretation of Genesis 1 , Genesis 2 and Genesis 3 to be very inadequate for gaining a better understanding of human nature. (FYI I've included hyperlinks to BibleGateway and I'm also adding hyperlink to Bible Hub for Genesis 1 - as a matter of convenience for Grease Spotters - both websites are easy to use and easy to navigate for definitons, commentaries and interlinear ) He displayed a tendency to make sharp distinctions between spirit and matter. When teaching the Advanced Class – he came off like he was the most knowledgeable and experienced expert on exactly how spirit and matter are mysteriously connected. I would like to take another look at the Bible without the wierwille-colored glasses. I feel there’s a lot more to be gained when we look for some sort of logical consistency in Scripture on any given subject. I know it’s important to understand the text and concepts in their original cultural setting. It’s my opinion that any discipline that studies the world and the nature of man might also offer information that correlates to some things mentioned in the Bible. I don't view the Bible as an ancient textbook. Rather I understand the Bible to be a coauthored book – divine and human. I think we find elements of both authors in the Bible – so what we have is more along the lines of a metaphysical/observational book. A divinely inspired narrative of the human condition . ~ ~ ~ ~ So, let’s start off with a review of some key points in wierwille’s trichotomy The following are some excerpts from wierwille’s book Power For Abundant Living: The Accuracy of the Bible, 1971, American Christian Press, chapter 16 Body, Soul, Spirit – Formed, Made, Created pages 229ff: A very condensed Scripture which we must thoroughly master to understand the origin of man is Isaiah 43:7 Even [for] every one that is called by my name: for I have created him for my glory, I have formed him; yea, I have made him. …Are the three words “created”, “formed” and “made” synonymous? Most people in my classes say, yes. If the Word means what it says and says what it means, these words cannot be synonymous… I Thessalonians 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Are those three words “spirit”, “soul” and “body” synonymous? They are no more synonymous than are created, formed and made. …what is soul? The soul in man is that which gives the body its life, its vitality. Look again at Genesis 2:7. And he Lord God formed man [man’s body] of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. …The confusion between the soul and the spirit has caused no end of difficulty for people… …The modern church has been illogical on this particular issue because it teaches that the soul is eternal life spirit and goes back to God; but then the teachers deny that a cow having a soul life must go back to God…But it isn’t tru, because the soul is not eternal life spirit. The soul is that which gives one breath-life… Genesis 1:27 So, God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. God had already formed and made man; man already had a body and soul. So what was God doing in creating man in his own image? What is the image of God? John 4:24: “God is a Spirit…” …Previously “soul” has been defined as “breath-life”. Plants do not have breath-life and yet they obviously have life in that they grow and bear fruit. Plants have growth-life, but they do not have breath life. Animals have both growth-life and soul or breath-life. Man as he originally created, surpassed the animal realm in that he not only had body and soul but also spirit. It was the spirit which set man apart from the rest of creation. Because man had spirit, God could communicate with his final masterpiece. end of excerpts ~ ~ ~ ~ Wierwille’s often promoted what amounts to pseudoscience and his statements, beliefs and claims were based on the Bible being a scientific textbook. His preference for fundamentalism tended to get stuck in literalism with an assumption of taking words at their explicit face value - without any consideration to metaphor, allegory or that the Biblical languages – like many other languages may have words which are interchangeable…synonymous...For an example - in poetry and prose there's a rhetorical device called repetition ...writers might use it to create motifs, or simply for emphasis... an example of that is in I Thess. 5: May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. I Thessalonians 5:23 on page 2157 of NIV, Biblical Theology Study Bible notes of verse 23 “your whole spirit, soul and body” is a rhetorical way to refer to the whole person (Matt. 10:28; Mark 12:30; I Cor 7:34; cf. Heb 4:12); Paul is not asserting that humans have three parts. ~ ~ ~ ~ Let’s think about life. Life is a quality that distinguishes matter that has biological processes, such as signaling and self-sustaining processes, from that which does not, and is defined by the capacity for growth, reaction to stimuli, metabolism, energy transformation, and reproduction. Various forms of life exist, such as plants, animals, fungi, protists, archaea, and bacteria. Biology is the science that studies life. From Wikipedia Here are some definitions of soul - Wikipedia: soul Britannica: soul The Philosophy com: the soul Plato Stanford EDU: ancient theories of the soul what do you think? Here are some definitions of spirit - Wikipedia: spirit Wikipedia: human spirit Intellect: concept of spirit in psychology, philosophy and religion what do you think? In some references it seems soul and spirit are similar if not identical. what do you thinl? wierwille made a distinction of breath-life being different from growth-life. I honestly don’t see the difference. What do you think? What is life compared to something that does not have life? wierwille said what distinguished humankind from animals was not the soul life but that man had spirit. What if the distinguishing quality of humankind was that the human soul was made in the image and likeness of God?

63. wierwille uses double-talk that appears to be earnest and meaningful but in fact is a mixture of sense and nonsense; it is intended to mislead For example, the following excerpts are from volume III of studies in abundant living by wierwille, The Word’s Way, in chapter 2, Who is the Word? pages 26ff: …The first chapter of the Gospel of John has been misread and interpreted as follows: “In the beginning was Jesus Christ, and Jesus Crist was with God, and Jesus Christ was God.” This is not what the verse says. John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. …How was this revealed Word with God? The Word was with God in His foreknowledge… John 1: 2 The same was in the beginning with God. The preposition “with” in verses 1 and 2 of John 1 further confirms this whole truth: “…and the Word was with [pros] God…The same was in the beginning with [pros] God.” There are a vast number of different Greek prepositions translated “with”, but only pros could fit here. Pros means “together with and yet having distinct independence.” The revealed Word was together with God and yet distinctly independent of Him. End of excerpts ~ ~ ~ ~ For the sake of clarity, to restate wierwille’s ideas another way: The Word – Jesus Christ - was with God by existing only in God’s foreknowledge. God’s foreknowledge was together with yet distinctly independent of God. Does God have a split personality? Was God into astral projection? I don’t know where wierwille got his pros definition from – maybe he made it up. Though awkward, it does have somewhat the same idea as what Joseph Henry Thayer's Greek Lexicon says of the Greek Work “pros” Strong's # 4314: advantageous for, at (denotes local proximity), toward (denotes motion toward a place) Usage: to, towards, with. 2. it is used of close proximity — the idea of direction, though not entirely lost, being more or less weakened. pros: advantageous for, at (denotes local proximity), toward (denotes motion toward a place) Original Word: πρός Part of Speech: Preposition HELPS Word-studies 4314 prós (a preposition) – properly, motion towards to "interface with" (literally, moving toward a goal or destination). From: Bible Hub: Greek pros Strong’s # 4314 ~ ~ ~ ~ What it looks like to me is that wierwille intended to mislead students by a pretentious use of the Greek language. Basically, trying to prove Jesus Christ was NOT preexistent. With double-talk he is saying: In the beginning Jesus Christ only existed in God’s foreknowledge and God’s foreknowledge is distinctly independent of God.

Juliette was so upset when the Mickey Mouse head broke off the 1959 Pez dispenser that her mother had bequeathed to her.

Hopefully the devil is busy chowing down at some Golden Corral… so let me just whip this out Some excerpts from The Origin of the Bible, editor Philip Comfort page 68 & 69, chapter title The Canon of the New Testament by Milton Fisher: The historic process was a gradual and continuous one, but it will help us understand it if we subdivide the nearly three and one-half centuries involved into shorter periods of time. Some speak of three major stages toward canonization. This implies, without justification, that there are readily discernible steps along the way. Others simply present a long list of the names of persons and documents involved. Such a list makes it difficult to sense any motion at all. A somewhat arbitrary breakdown into five periods will be made here, with the reminder that the spreading of the knowledge of sacred literature and the deepening consensus as to its authenticity as inspired Scripture continued uninterruptedly. The periods are: 1. First Century 2. First Half of Second Century 3. Second Half of Second Century 4. Third Century 5. Fourth Century Again, without meaning to imply that these are clear-cut stages, it will be helpful to notice major trends observable in each of the periods just identified. In the first period, of course, the various books are written, but they also began to be copied and disseminated among the church. In the second, as they became more widely known and cherished for their contents, they began to be cited as authoritative. By the end of the third period they held a recognized place alongside the Old Testament as “Scripture,” and they began to be both translated into regional languages and made the subject of commentaries. During the third century A.D., our fourth period, the collecting of books into a whole “New Testament” was underway, together with a sifting process which was separating them from other Christian literature. The final, or fifth period finds the church fathers of the fourth century stating that conclusions regarding the canon have been reached which indicate acceptance by the whole church. This, in the most strict and formal sense of the word, the canon had become fixed. It remains to list in greater detail the forces and individuals which produced the written sources witnessing to this remarkable process through which, by God’s providence, we have inherited our New Testament. ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ End of excerpts

Didn’t wierwille teach in the Advanced Class about the spirit of leviathan that had something to do with alcoholism? Did he forget to mention the spirit of silverfish that eats paper?

How about this for a segue back to the topic - my Frankenstein bass design is like wierwille’s thinking behind PFAL and Advanced Class - throw together some good parts with a cheap warped structure for a backbone - it may look good but sounds terrible when put into play.

Gives new meaning to the old cop show phrase “book ‘em”

let me get in one last off-topic misfire then before they moderate my a$$ - my first bass - and I use that term loosely- was actually a cheapie electric guitar my brother bought for me. Couldn’t figure out chords - I removed 2 skinny strings - filed new channels in nut to spread out 4 strings, bought grauwyler (?) tuning keys and that Gibson humbucker pickup. I worked at a furniture store to help load delivery trucks - furniture repair guy named Lucky painted the body a satin bone white. It looked beautiful- sounded like $hit with fret buzz, warped neck and improper length for bass strings. I called it Frankenstein Bass. Waysider - cool song - I love her voice!

Great sharing OldSkool! Your one line “I felt it was too reflective of my old man nature and too dark to keep” really resonated with me – thinking about some of the songs and poems I wrote…What’s gone is gone, my friend…but I still have – in memory – and on home authored CDs the music I composed…for me the music…timing…changes are easy to recall cuz that was fun to create…it’s from my own head…yeah - I regret tossing all that stuff…and if I could go back in time I would talk myself into keeping it. Why? Because there’s nothing in them that I’m ashamed of. I didn’t write songs or poems about getting stoned or making love up to 2 times a night I wrote about searching for the meaning of life…finding my soul mate…searching for truth…being honest… now some of my instrument stuff could get a little weird and dark – I’ve got one tune I call Confusion rounded off to the nearest decibel and alternates between loud and soft and fast and slow – I wrote it in 1972 but it still has meaning for me today…a snapshot into my soul that was lost in darkness…pensive…brooding…bouts of depression…confusion and then frenetic outbursts…I was heavily inspired by the Mahavishnu Orchestra…in the make-believe world of T-Bone’s opening act for Mothers of Invention and Mahavishnu Orchestra (believe it or not, I saw both acts on the same bill at a concert in Long Island) I would probably have Confusion as my opening number and merely say to the audience before I kick it off – here’s a weird tune I wrote about a dark and confusing time in my life ( which would also include 12 years in TWI )…my more recent tunes reflect a brighter more upbeat self, free of a cultic mindset, curious and enjoying a simple family life. Hey that’s crazy about your Les Paul ! Have you ever been to the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. My wife and I spent about five hours in there – didn’t see it all – we got tired. I saw one really rough looking Les Paul guitar. Saw Jack Cassidy’s bass from Jefferson Airplane era – he did the modifications himself – cut out a chunk of the body – put some sheet metal across it to mount more control knobs – wild I tellz yah! Hit it, Jack: One pill makes you larger And one pill makes you small And the Advanced Class that wierwille teaches Doesn't do anything at all

Just wanted to share a few excerpts from a book I had mentioned earlier on this thread – here - it’s from How We Got the Bible by Neil R. Lightfoot , from pages 159 - 162: It is sometimes said that the line of demarcation between the New Testament books and other Christian writings was not always clear, that scarcely any distinction was made between the two. But early Christians were not as uncritical or naïve about these matters as they are often made out to be. Jesus and his apostles warned about false prophets, and at least some congregations were commended for holding their ground (Rev. 2:2; I John 4:4). The church was instructed not to believe every spirit (cf. I John 4:1) certainly had some capacity for discerning divine authority. But with the rapid growth of Christianity, it was inevitable that in some quarters of the church various Christian writings would be received differently… …As for other Christian writings, a number of them were circulating among Christians. Especially important among these were the Epistle of Barnabas and the Shepherd of Hermas…Yet neither of these books were above suspicion, nor were they generally received on a par with the acknowledged apostolic writings. In the case of the Shephard of Hermas, for example, the above-mentioned Muratorian Fragment states that it could be read in public worship but that it was not to be counted among the prophets or apostolic writings. The restriction concerning the Shephard of Hermas serves to illustrate the significant principle that some books could be read for edification in public worship which were not at the time regarded as possessing divine authority… …In the final analysis, canon is not something that once and for all can be proved. The study of canon is a study of history, and each generation must give itself to that study. This is but another reason why we should try to learn more about the Bible and how it has come down to us… …In conclusion, it is important to emphasize that no church council made the canon of Scripture. No church by its decrees gave to or pronounced on the books of the Bible their infallibility. The Bible owes its authority to no individual or group. The church does not control the canon, but the canon controls the church. Although divine authority was attributed to the New Testament books by the later church, this authority was not derived from the church but was inherent in the books themselves. As a child identifies its mother, the later church identified the books which it regarded as having unique authority. ~ ~ ~ ~ end of excerpts

62. PFAL endorses a rigid mindset of fundamentalism – and the Christian lifestyle becomes more about having a relationship with a book than with a person. Do you remember the PFAL session on the fall of man? wierwille contrasted knowledge that comes to us via the five senses as opposed to revelation faith. He goes into Genesis 2 and Genesis 3 . Most Grease Spotters probably still remember the drill on the road down. wierwille’s narrative develops this imaginative and scary scenario of a devilish ploy to slowly demolish “the true Word” – and he insinuates that it is still used today: questioning “The Word”, changing “The Word”, adding a word, etc. Few details are given – yet wierwille picks Genesis 3 apart like a CSI investigation. What was the forbidden fruit? The Bible doesn’t say. What was the tree of knowledge of good and evil? The Bible doesn’t say. How long was the prohibition to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil to be in effect? The Bible doesn’t say. Since few details are given, one is hard pressed to create a clear and exact picture of what really happened. wierwille’s wooden interpretation of Genesis 3 makes it a simple case of not following the rule book – it’s just a cold, clinical analysis of how he sees God’s relationship with mankind. You’ve got to know the rules. Follow them to the letter. Doesn’t matter what you think or feel. Sounds like a warm relationship doesn’t it? Naw – I don’t think so. In PFAL wierwille makes a big deal of Eve’s mistake to add words to the prohibition not to eat it – wierwille says that was wrong when she added “and you must not touch it”. I’ve changed my take on that. Perhaps Eve was being overcautious and wanted to make it more difficult to eat the forbidden fruit if she would not even touch it. I think we all do things like this. If someone has a problem with alcohol, they might have some self-imposed rules – don’t have a single drink…don’t even take a taste…avoid bars…etc. someone watching their weight might intentionally NOT look at the dessert menu…avoid fast food restaurants. Here's another thing. wierwille makes such a big deal about them disobeying God’s Word. But I think that’s a shallow read of the intimate interrelation of God with Adam and Eve. What is disobedience? It’s a failure or refusal to obey rules or someone in authority. Adam and Eve had a very close working relationship with God – the authority who set up this one rule. Their disobedience was a betrayal of trust - not being loyal to a person – God! It killed their relationship I think this aspect of PFAL/wierwille’s fundamentalism reduces what is supposed to be a Christian’s transforming relationship with God, down to a one-sided relationship with a book. That “relationship” is not transformative – because the person relies on self-reflection based on how they interpret the Bible. There's no feedback from the author of the book. There are many places in the Bible that speak of the validation of truth by the Holy Spirit when we consider the words of God and try to follow the message the best we can. The Bible then becomes necessary as facilitating a relationship with God. Of course, that’s just my opinion.

36. Advanced Class ripple effect and the unintended consequences of well-meaning Advanced Class grads I had just taken the PFAL class in ’74 and was caught up in the enthusiasm of some seasoned grads. As a matter of fact, some were Advanced Class grads. They would often share about some of the “heavy stuff” they had learned in the Advanced Class. I’d get excited and would have forked over the money right then and there if they’d let me take the AC next. I sensed there might be some ministry protocols for one’s growth and further enlightenment. Several of them kept bringing up the WOW program as a good way to grow - and someone mentioned something Glenn Clark said along the lines of to travel fast and far, travel light. I was 22 years old and still living with my parents. A couple of years earlier I dropped out of college (didn’t know what I wanted to be when I grow up ) and the band I was playing in petered out due to artistic differences – I wanted to play more Jazz/Rock fusion stuff and write our own tunes and a couple of the other bandmates wanted to stick with the more or less steady income from playing popular stuff at local gigs. Let me say right off the bat – I own all the poor choices I made. I have no excuses to offer…but I do have reasons - while in TWI, I made a lot of poor choices because I was misled to favor TWI’s priorities when deciding over HOW I would achieve growth and enlightenment...like any good sales rep, seasoned grads would ask me about my goals and then show me how TWI's classes and programs would help me achieve those goals. Now, back to pre-WOW time. I wanted to go fast and far…I’ve got to lighten up. Cut the dead weight. The concept of our old man nature fascinated me. I was one of those gung-ho grads. One day I took all my sketch books and notebooks of my songs and poems to a dumpster outside of a restaurant at the Green Acres Mall. Instead of throwing them in our garbage can at home – I might change my mind and retrieve them – so I chose a dumpster some 5 miles away. I bragged about it to the girl that got me in PFAL and the “heavyweights”. I was so proud of my new self. I got to think more seriously about going WOW. Time to lighten up some more. My prized possessions – a 1971 Fender Jazz Bass that I had customized with a third pickup – a Gibson Humbucker and a Fender Bass Amp – I gave to a believer who was in a local ministry band. After WOW, I married my WOW sister (did I mention this was going to be an R-rated post? .. ...it's sort of a romance/comedy of errors/ soap opera /cult documentary Betamax tape limited edition...please be kind and rewind). And we moved to a small town from the suggestion of a Limb coordinator who liked our enthusiasm to move anywhere we were needed. Do you remember those Uncle Harry Days or Burn the Chaff Days? We were directed to push that in our Twigs. Get rid of stuff that holds you back. Get rid of worldly music and books…get rid of all that stuff that can allow devil spirits to gain entrance into our lives – we hadn’t taken the Advanced Class yet – but we’re not taking any chances – if that’s “The Word” from on high – HQ - then that’s the plan…anyway – you know how Advanced Class grads like to talk it up about all the devilish stuff around us…oh it’s so scary… Fortunately, we lived just outside of town and the local trash management company was only half a mile from our house. My wife and I hauled all our LPs over there. A combined collection of music/album art of two people from two different states with different tastes in music – LPs we had accumulated all our lives…My first three albums were given to me by my older brother – Beatles Sargent Pepper, Mothers of Invention Freak Out, Four Tops Greatest Hits – along with all the rest of my albums and hers’ – bloop – in the trash heap. Oh, remember my pre-WOW story of giving away my bass and amp? Bob the NY bass player later went in the corps…so it’s some 9 years after I went WOW…We had moved again…I was in a local ministry band and we got to play on one of those satellite stages at the Rock…we got to use the equipment from headquarters – and guess what? I got to play on my old Fender Bass…kind of a bittersweet feeling at the time. Sorry if this seems a little incoherent. I’m just trying to show the ripple effect and unintended consequences of well-meaning Advanced Class grads – it still really sucks.

Yeah – I sure do! This is great! It’s like he’s breaking down all the fallacies wierwille pulls in PFAL. Thanks for posting

61. the hypocrisy of “the teacher” who doesn’t use the interpretive “keys” he pushed in PFAL On more than one occasion I witnessed wierwille explain to a packed crowd about how he knew what he should look into when “researching” the Bible. His answer was usually something like God would usually make a word or phrase appear one inch high in my Bible. Why didn’t he reveal that in PFAL. There’s something fishy about that. I don’t know about you, but if there’s one important lesson I’ve learned from believing a fraudster for 12 years – it’s that I should be highly suspicious of someone who can’t walk me through how they figured out a problem or came up with an idea. We’re not talking rocket science here – just a simple explanation of a thought process. How did you get from point A to B to C to D? You can think what you want about wierwille’s supposedly one-inch-high-divine-directives in Bible research – but do you know what I think? Those were live teaching situations. It was like an interview with an actor who doesn’t have a script in front of him…a script that he plagiarized…he didn’t write it. I think wierwille’s go-to strategy most of the time was to wing it anyway. Who needs a plan or a standard to go by – when God will be there to guide you. There’s a great scene in the 1988 film Working Girl it’s about an ambitious secretary who takes over her new boss's role while the boss is laid up with a broken leg. The secretary, who has been going to business night school, pitches a profitable idea, only to have the boss attempt to take credit. There’s a great scene where a client asks the boss how did you come up with the idea – see clip - How did you come up with the idea for Trask to buy out Metro?

It’s funny how some things stay with you. I asked my wife if she wanted to try my latest Irish Coffee concoction so I said “want a sip if you’re not afraid of my cooties.”

Cool. You might find FredGrant’s YouTube on Demons (in above post) helpful too. And note my comments to him after I watched the video. This stuff is all new to me too - and it’s nice to find some sources that are grounded in the actual culture and theological thought process of the people in the Bible. I’m going to watch that video a few more times - and check out some other videos he has.

Great points, WordWolf! Me being the dullard that I am , didn’t start unraveling this ball of TWIne nonsense until I started questioning stuff. Being an ambitious cub reporter for the T-Bone Inquirer I decided to tackle one of the most problematic theories right after I left. What got me going on this was the idea that if the unforgivable sin is such a bad thing to commit then why isn’t there a clear specific prohibition to avoid committing the trespass? Don’t commit adultery - I understand what that means Don’t steal - I understand that. Don’t lie - I understand that - sure - I’ve never done it - My goofy logical analysis back then was to theorize that God would not forbid us from doing something that was impossible for us to do. For example “do not leap over tall buildings in a single bound”. It’s inconceivable that any human could commit such a sin. That got me going in a few different directions. How did this work in the physical realm? There’s Gnosticism’s preference for a strict separation of spirit and matter - and never the twain shall meet. What does it mean for spiritual seed to get into a physical body? That touches on being born again of incorruptible seed too - but that’s a whole other discussion - but I understand that in the same way - being figurative. Craig tried to further TWI-explain the wrong seed by saying it was a permanent wedge installed in the underpants of your mind (I’m speaking completely figuratively and comedically of course). Concerning possession , I agree with you on looking for some classic signs of extraordinary physicality like what’s noted in the Bible.

Yeah - that didn’t sound right

Cool video, FredGrant ! Thanks for posting. Not to get into this stuff here…but there’s a lot to process in that video…near the end he says something like - as a member of the kingdom of God, this adversary has no claim on you at all…the growth of the kingdom of God means the diminishing of the adversary’s domain. Some of his ideas are similar to things I’ve read by John Walton – and I went to Heiser’s website and noticed he recommends some of Walton’s books…I like Heiser’s delivery and his thoughtful approach – I’ll have to watch that video a few more times…interesting stuff…I like all the dramatic stuff ! thanks again for posting!

Oh, did you hear the one about the guy who didn’t pay off his exorcist’s bill? He got repossessed. (I heard that one when I was a WOW, from Rick another WOW in our branch…so there – I’m not a plagiarist – I gave attribution to my source )

Oh, so we’re telling old jokes now. …okay… A raid uncovered a cache of the enemy’s munitions, and two naval technicians from the explosive ordnance disposal unit have just arrived on site. “What’s our orders?” asked Steve. “We’re to dispose of all unexploded ordnance.” replies Rob. Steve says, “Is that all without exception or all without distinction?” Ba-dump-bump… I’m here all week, folks

Yeah this account reminded me of that “divine council “ scene in Job too …you might be interested in my post on another thread. Here where I share some stuff from a cultural background study Bible

I was reading this account in Luke where Jesus said Satan has desired to sift Peter like wheat…and this thread and a few comparisons between a cult-leader and Jesus Christ came to mind…such as wierwille’s fondness for fear mongering over the devil to intimidate TWI-followers into cowering behind his hollow leadership and toeing the line or else it’s curtains for you… I also thought of what little confidence wierwille showed in the abilities of others as he usually tried to micromanage everyone…The most contrasting thing starts in the 24th verse of Luke 22…think about all the times wierwille would go on and on about the greatest leader should be the greatest servant – but most of what he did was sit back on his duff and demand people treat him like visiting royalty. As for the rest of us - in TWI there’s usually never a dispute over who is the greatest because there’s a clearly defined hierarchy – one moves up in status and authority as you go from PFAL to other classes to the Advanced Class, or other acceptable routes like WOW to way corps…anyway here’s Luke 22: A dispute also arose among them as to which of them was considered to be greatest. Jesus said to them, “The kings of the Gentiles lord it over them; and those who exercise authority over them call themselves Benefactors. But you are not to be like that. Instead, the greatest among you should be like the youngest, and the one who rules like the one who serves. For who is greater, the one who is at the table or the one who serves? Is it not the one who is at the table? But I am among you as one who serves. You are those who have stood by me in my trials. And I confer on you a kingdom, just as my Father conferred one on me, so that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom and sit on thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 31 “Simon, Simon, Satan has asked to sift all of you as wheat. But I have prayed for you, Simon, that your faith may not fail. And when you have turned back, strengthen your brothers.” 33 But he replied, “Lord, I am ready to go with you to prison and to death.” 34 Jesus answered, “I tell you, Peter, before the rooster crows today, you will deny three times that you know me.” Luke 22: 24 – 34 One of my study Bibles suggested this dispute may have prompted the episode where Christ washed their feet John 13 . That has a lot more impact than wierwille’s impotent armchair quarterbacking. For Jesus to single out Simon this may be significant for a couple of reasons. Jesus Christ Himself had given the new name of Peter to Simon. Was Peter one of the more vocal disciples in this dispute? Was Peter reverting back to his old ways before he met Jesus? There’s lots of mentoring going on in this passage – and Jesus doesn’t sugarcoat the challenges but He’s basically saying that trials have a refining process on believers, and He assures Peter He is praying for him to hang in there – even though he’s going to experience failures his faith will never be squashed. Jesus Christ never gave up on his disciples...I remember in the way corps wierwille would go on and on about if you ever trip out or cop out of the ministry you're doomed to oblivion - whatever that means. I remember sometimes when he'd get on a rant about that, I'd have some morbid death wish or something - like I hope someone shoots me dead or I have a heart attack and die before I trip out or cop out...it's weird how all-consuming cult-indoctrination can become. Even when Peter failed miserably – denying his Lord. Jesus is a big fan of the repentance process. Jesus believed in the ability of people to bounce back and in turn strengthen others ( verse 32 )…and check out John 21: 18, 19 Jesus foretells that Peter will remain committed unto death to the glory of God. Considering Jesus Christ’s transcendence and immanence – I can’t imagine Him doing any less for us.