T-Bone

Geez, have you heard about the leak of classified files recently? Yeah, you know the ones, where the leaker even altered some of them to spread disinformation. Here below is one altered file from TWI’s spiritual commodities graph of a typical followers 3-year involvement – note it shows an average of 89% loss in money, resources, quality of life, career opportunities, and harmony in the home. Apparently – in an effort to misdirect attention away from TWI’s exploitative schemes, the leaker deliberately mislabeled the file to look like a graph from the great depression:

I’m continuing to ignore Mike’s disregard for valid criticism – so any folks at home wanting to play along in the 20,000-Hours Worth of a Pyramid Scheme Called PFAL, please review my post …and while you're here enjoy a tune that is sure to uplift your wallets, bless ye of little cognitive skills, The Class is gonna scam ya God did NOT “put the idea of limited measure in where spiritual commodities are being talked about” – MIKE did! And MIKE ALSO made up HIS OWN modern terms “spiritual commodities” in case you missed that misdirection.

1.)I don’t think “budget” is a hot loaded word – what got my attention was that it’s an inappropriate word for an idea you’re trying to shoehorn into a silly theory. Part of why it seems like your forcing the concept into the Bible is that you’re using modern ideas to interpret ancient thought. (I get more into this in point 4 below modern vs ancient) . Reminds me of how wierwille erroneously taught about the Holy Spirit / holy spirit. Besides misconstruing of a separate entity ( a clone? )– distinct from the Holy Spirit – wierwille also used the car battery analogy to explain how this separate entity – holy spirit – powered the 9 manifestations. This gets into a whole other topic of how wrong wierwille got this – if someone’s interested in rehashing wierwille-doctrine and comparing that to biblical theology on the Holy Spirit, feel free to start a thread in doctrinal. I may or may not contribute, if I have the time – got other study and reading projects going on right now…anyway to summarize car battery, budgets, and mini-me-holy spirits modern mumbo jumbo gumbo to feed the elephant in the collaterals code name Operation Dumbo. 2.)why not give your audience a little more credit than that. I could be wrong, but that seems to me like you’re either bluffing [because you don’t have the whole list] or you’re afraid some items will not hold up well under scrutiny…have some respect for the intelligence of others and let them choose from the entire menu of your post(s). It does take some courage to put yourself out there – because you’re opening yourself up – becoming vulnerable. But that helps to develop a rapport with your audience – and with the feedback loop of Grease Spot Café – that would be in keeping with your desire for brainstorming. Another impractical thing about doing this in pieces is that you lose continuity. That’s probably one of the most obfuscating and deceitful things about PFAL – it was wierwille’s piecemeal attempt to cobble together a weird theology. If you follow that pattern you’ll probably confuse others and lose their attention. 3.)already explained why “budget” got my attention [see point 1]. I can’t speak for others – but I will challenge your idea that “we intuitively know that God is infinite and unbounded and not limited to budgets.” just reflecting on that for my journey so far, it might best be described as undulating waves on a self-awareness oscilloscope . Graphically displaying over a lifetime the rise-and-fall-and-rise-and-fall-etcetera of tides - the ebb and flow of what I think I know about God [probably some childish thoughts, clumsy conclusions, false ideas, fantasies, and sci-fi stuff] along with the undercurrents and undertow of my belief system, good & bad habits, sins & imperfections…since there is no constant reference point I don’t think I’m in a position to determine if God is unlimited – or for that matter even knowing what that means. BUT – your mention of how people might intuitively know something reminded me of a cool book Rocky mentioned earlier A Short History of Myth by Karen Armstrong and in response to his recommendation I chimed in with The Case for God by Karen Armstrong – you might enjoy checking those 2 books out…this stuff gets into philosophy of religion and what drives people to look inward and outward… …the more I think about it getting into alternate sources of inspiration might do you a world of good – since it seems to me you either have a wierwille/PFAL-centric frame of thought or extrapolate out from a wierwille/PFAL a position of central prominence or importance…if you’re interested in broadening your horizons I could recommend a few systematic theologies and stuff on hermeneutics. I’m not suggesting that any reference is perfect – but the ones I favor stand up to close scrutiny and present a coherent organization of the important tenets of Christianity. 4.A)modern vs ancient…using modern concepts to interpret ancient ideas. (a follow-up of point 1) I believe you are probably misinterpreting John 3:34 For He whom God has sent speaks the words of God [proclaiming the Father’s own message]; for God gives the [gift of the] Spirit without measure [generously and boundlessly]! For so reads the Amplified version. Some info from NIV Biblical Theology Study Bible , The NET Bible: Second Beta Edition Edition , and NIV Cultural Backgrounds Study Bible: Bringing to Life the Ancient World of Scripture speak of an idiom referencing Leviticus Rabbah which is a homiletic midrash to the Biblical book of Leviticus, and thou online commentaries offer various interpretations most reflect the same idea of the Messiah’s unique stature as the Son of God. Perhaps in our modern way of thinking when you measure something, you’re gauging quantity – but from what I gather of the culturalisms, the idiom simply conveys the concept of Jesus Christ being unique and being authenticated by the Holy Spirit as the Messiah: Expositor's Greek Testament John 3:34. The reason assigned for the truth and trustworthiness of Christ’s words is scarcely the reason we expect: οὐ γὰρ … Πνεῦμα. John has told us that Christ is to be believed because He testifies of what He hath seen and heard: now, because the Spirit is given without measure to Him. The meaning of the clause is contested. The omission of ὁ θεός does not materially affect the sense, for ὁ θεός would naturally be supplied as the nominative to δίδωσι from τοῦ θεοῦ of the preceding clause. There are four interpretations. (1) Augustine, Calvin, Lücke, Alford, suppose the clause means that God, instead of giving occasional and limited supplies of the Spirit as had been given to the prophets, gives to Christ the fulness of the Spirit. (2) Meyer thinks that the primary reference is not to Christ but that the statement is general, that God gives the Spirit freely and abundantly, and does thus dispense it to Christ. (3) Westcott, following Cyril, makes Christ the subject and understands the clause as meaning that He proves His Messiahship by giving the Spirit without measure. (4) Godet makes τὸ πνεῦμα the subject, not the object, and supposes the meaning to be that the Spirit gives to Christ the words of God without measure. The words of John 3:35 seem to weigh in favour of the rendering of A.V[47]: “God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto Him”. The R.V[48] is ambiguous. ἐκ μέτρου, out of a measure, or, by measure, that is, sparingly. So ἐν μέτρῳ in Ezekiel 4:11. Wetstein quotes: “R. Achan dixit: etiam Spiritus S. non habitavit super Prophetas nisi mensura quadam: quidam enim librum unum, quidam duos vaticiniorum ediderunt”. The Spirit was given to Jesus not in the restricted and occasional manner in which it had been given to the O.T. prophets, but wholly, fully, constantly. It was by this Spirit His human nature was enlightened and guided to speak things divine; and this Spirit, interposed as it were between the Logos and the human nature of Christ, was as little cumbrous in its operation or perceptible in consciousness as our breath which is interposed between the thinking mind and the words which utter it. End of excerpt from Bible Hub John 3:34 Commentaries 4.B)too big a topic to rehash here Please review OldSkool's thread "Great Principle Whitewashed?"_Sunday Jan. 1st 2023, 10:00AM 5.) please review point 4 about John 4:34. 6.)obviously! Please review point 4. 7.)please review point 4. 8.)Knowing a great deal is not the same as being smart; intelligence is not information alone but also judgment, the manner in which information is collected and used....Carl Sagan …yes, we do get SOME kind of info from the scriptures – but HOW do we as modern readers interpret an ancient book – written over a span of some 1500 years by various writers holding various worldviews, in various cultures, using various languages? Please review point 4 and try to draw some LOGICAL conclusions, and maybe learn more about the art and science of hermeneutics to better understand the ancient writers’ frame of mind instead of twisting stuff to fit into a template wierwille taught us. 9.) Hermeneutics is a wise handling of Scripture and other thought provoking texts…it’s the theory and methodology of interpretation, especially the interpretation of biblical texts, wisdom literature, as well as philosophical texts. Hermeneutics is more than interpretative principles or methods used when immediate comprehension fails and includes the art of understanding and communication.

Good point And there’s the whole digestive cycle too - your dawgz will be known for passing of the poop-triarch …a unique dis-stink-shun as doo-ers of the turd and not eaters only…Awgie dawggie my Engwish is turdful! and please try to be more tolerant in your home since we’re supposed to be ASPCA good to the household. (sorry that one was a bit of a stretch… but i had them rolling in the aisles when I was a standup comic…actually it wasn’t that funny - but I learned this trick at a Pentecostal revival - I’d whisper to someone in the front row “rollover” and give them a little milk-bone if they did it.)

Exploratory = involving exploration or investigation; similar = fact-finding; probing; searching; analytic. Expedition = a journey or voyage undertaken by a group of people with a particular purpose, especially that of exploration, scientific research. But in that same starter post you said you wanted to get into brainstorming = group discussion to produce ideas or solve problems. I think you should stick with brainstorming – that would be intellectually honest – because it doesn’t look like you’re conducting a fact-finding mission to find Scripture evidence…I mean you have not shown any so far…but it does appear you want help brainstorming to prove that God has a budget, there's double doors and that has something to do with the scarcity of miracles…don’t think I can help you much there – it’s like you asking me to help you prove the law of believing is real…I won't because just don’t believe in your mission...remember this great line - I have a jack but I'm not going to help you.

Getting back to the topic What do you all think of wierwille’s explanation of Luke 23:43 ? I’ve copied a few different versions and pasted below…it seems to me Jesus is reassuring the repentant criminal that he would be in paradise with Jesus that very day: New International Version Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.” English Standard Version And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise.” King James Bible And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise. New American Standard Bible And He said to him, “Truly I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.” Amplified Bible Jesus said to him, “I assure you and most solemnly say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.” Holman Christian Standard Bible And He said to him, “I assure you: Today you will be with Me in paradise.”

maybe while you're at it you can provide evidence for the rest of your theory in your starter post. I'm old and a little slow on the uptake - so excuse me for that - and it just might be me - but it seems to me like you've gone all over the map and even off-the-map but you still haven't proved that God has a budget, there's double doors and that has something to do with the scarcity of miracles.

To insist on moving the goalposts seems to be an admission the idea was silly in the first place. don’t get your hopes up on the rest of my post - you probably won’t like it either…but in my defense nine tenths of my post was just quoting Job 38 to 41…the first ten or so short paragraphs at the beginning were just introductory remarks to show Scripture evidence that your theory was untenable.

God imposing limitations is certainly one option. That is evident in some of the imagery in Job 38 to 41…But there also could be limitations intrinsic to the thing or being itself. A state’s Department of Transportation might post a speed limit sign of 70 mph on the freeway. Many legal street vehicles are capable of greater speeds than that. If they get caught doing so by a state trooper there are usually consequences – a speeding ticket / day in court, etc...in a related story there was a believer in our branch who got around on a dinky moped - the top speed on those is 30 mph. He'd show up at functions all dusty and disheveled saying he took the freeway there - most of the trip was on the shoulder of the freeway...He never got a speeding ticket that's for sure...did get a few warnings to stay off freeways because he couldn't keep up with traffic. ah the more abundant life...gotta love it! Now let’s take a look at a silly hypothetical. Bicyclists unite to create their own city where only non-motorized bicycles are allowed on the road. They even have freeways. Throwing caution to the wind they decide to make speed limits well beyond the capability of bicyclists (no metahumans in this goofball scenario ) which means they don’t need a police department to enforce the speed limits. Knowing that the land speed record for a bicycle is held by Bruce Bursford, who pedaled to an astonishing 208 mph in August, 1995 - he was sitting on a specially designed, stationary bike with helium-filled tires and a two-foot chain ring, set on rollers. [ What Is the Highest Speed Ever Recorded on a Bicycle? - SportsRec ] – it is determined that the speed limit on freeways is to be 300 mph…until the next big bicycle upgrade comes along – then the city officials might have to raise the speed limit. I think in a similar way created beings have built-in limitations. No being is more powerful than God Almighty. It’s not that God has to actively do something to restrict or retrain a beings activity. It’s that the particular being can only do so much.

yes - and there's probably a quote by someone along those lines.

Great recommendation Rocky ! Another one of her books that is fascinating for anyone who gets into philosophy of religion is The Case for God by Karen Armstrong . It has been some of the inspiration behind a few of my posts on this thread and a few others with similar themes.

1.My opening quote is from YOUR starter post for this thread – so quit trying to move the goalposts! here are a few other excerpts from Mike’s starter post Monday February 27th, 2023, 9:12 PM God’s Budget and Double Doors On the Scarcity of Miracles… Does God have a budget for signs, miracles, and wonders?... …At the very end of this thinking, I keep running into the very odd idea that God has limited Himself to a “budget” on miracles SO THAT the devil can be limited to the same a budget on producing lying signs, miracles, and wonders… …I thought I’d submit this hunch of mine for review here, and brainstorming a little outside the usual confines of issues in About the Way. I am sure many tangential topics will be included. End of excerpts from Mike’s starter post ~ ~ ~ ~ 2.budget = as a noun - an estimate of income and expenditure for a set period of time; as a verb - allow or provide a particular amount of money in a budget. We can guess till the cows jump over the collaterals. If you want to hazard a plausible guess within the confines of PFAL, how about God put a cap on how much the devil could believe in the law of believing. 3.you bore me with your redefinitions, slippery slopes, and false analogies. Face up to the fact this post represents your typical strategy of backpedaling (recanting incognito) and waffling in an attempt to get the square peg to fit in the round hole. One suggestion: try using belt sander on peg or ream out the hole to make it bigger. 4.reread my post, paying special attention to the 6th, 7th, and 8th paragraphs down from the top – and don’t forget to click on the hyperlinks in those paragraphs…what you should have realized is the complementary or corresponding relationship of the natural order and moral order – in other words it’s not a dichotomy – a contrast – but rather one reveals stuff about the other – and both harmonize to inform us about God’s attributes and character. Mike said: "what caught my eye was the dichotomy of God’s Physical Order being beyond us, as well as His Moral Order" If God's natural order and moral order is beyond us - then Paul's argument in Romans 1 saying fallen humankind are without excuse would not make sense! It is precisely because all that is well within humankind's ability to mentally grasp His divine order. ~ ~ ~ ~ Here for your convenience is what I said: “Read through these chapters and see how God used Job’s ignorance of the natural order of the world - the organization and coordination of systems comprising the physical universe and its proper functioning – to reveal God’s moral order. It seems to me God is saying Job, if you do not understand the workings of the physical universe which I’ve created how can you possibly understand My mind and character? I find a similar theme in Romans 1 , Paul talks about God revealing His divine nature and personal qualities through the created world…and perhaps echoing a reference to Job’s ignorance, Romans 1 implies creation’s testimony has been distorted by the fall of humankind.” End of quoting my Saturday 4/15/2023 11:45 PM post 5. I reject your budget idea because there’s no scriptural basis for it. Just because YOU think your silly theory gives you a glimpse into God’s Moral Order does not make it so. So, to answer your question do the scriptures hint to us some of God’s moral order as a budgetary thing? The answer is NO. 6.It might help if you could cite other sources (providing hyperlinks or at least specifics, documentation where I could see you’re not making this up ) who have tried to explain this supposed glimpse of God being “fair” to the devil in a legal sense. You claim your budget idea and the legal fairness idea are only tiny glimpses we have been given – so again I ask WHERE have these glimpses been given? Feel free to reiterate your mischaracterization of biblical narratives (recalling your mishmash of Job 1 & 2), which was false and misleading to begin with – and please stay on point if you want to argue over the culturalisms in Job 1 & 2 – because reinterpreting ancient narratives via one’s modern myopic point of view is absurd.

Did wierwille believe that? He was a prolific plagiarist. Maybe as a thief he could at least steal what others taught. What was the motivation behind his 1942 Promise fabrication? Was that a way to validate his erroneous idea that people cannot go beyond what they’re taught unless God does the tutoring? Perhaps wierwille was playing king of the hill – setting himself up as the most authoritative person on God and the Bible. Whether he or others realized it or not, I think wierwille was into intellectual hobbling - a method of control to prevent others from straying from a cult mindset. Imagine if educational systems had the maxim you can’t go beyond what you are taught. Would most students acquiesce to the idea? What would be the motivation to develop and improve one’s cognitive skills? Where would inventors, creators, artists, scientists, doctors, scholars, leaders and even inspiring teachers come from?

Quote: Does God have a budget for signs, miracles, and wonders? The book of Job has been brought up on this thread. I am surprised that in the milieu of questions and God-trivializing guess work that little or no attention had been given to Job 38 , Job 39 , Job 40 , and Job 41 . These hyperlinks are to the NIV version on Bible Hub’s website. It’s a convenient website to see other versions, biblical lexicons, interlinear text, and commentaries. What’s noteworthy about those chapters is that this is when Yahweh finally spoke to Job – and surprisingly He didn’t answer any of Job’s questions! by the way, did you know The name Yahweh (yah-WEH) occurs more than 6,800 times in the Old Testament. It appears in every book but Esther, Ecclesiastes, and the Song of Songs. As the sacred, personal name of Israel's God, it was eventually spoken aloud only by priests worshiping in the Jerusalem temple. After the destruction of the temple in A.D. 70, the name was not pronounced. Adonay was substituted for Yahweh whenever it appeared in the biblical text. Because of this, the correct pronunciation of this name was eventually lost. English editions of the Bible usually translate Adonay as "Lord" and Yahweh as "LORD." Yahweh is the name that is most closely linked to God's redeeming acts in the history of his chosen people. We know God because of what he has done. When you pray to Yahweh, remember that he is the same God who draws near to save you from the tyranny of sin just as he saved his people from tyrannical slavery in Egypt. From: What "Yahweh" Means in the Bible - God's Name Explained (biblestudytools.com) Read through these chapters and see how God used Job’s ignorance of the natural order of the world - the organization and coordination of systems comprising the physical universe and its proper functioning – to reveal God’s moral order. It seems to me God is saying Job, if you do not understand the workings of the physical universe which I’ve created how can you possibly understand My mind and character? I find a similar theme in Romans 1 , Paul talks about God revealing His divine nature and personal qualities through the created world…and perhaps echoing a reference to Job’s ignorance, Romans 1 implies creation’s testimony has been distorted by the fall of humankind. There is no criterion higher than God Himself by which to judge. We are in no position to demote God Almighty! [during your free time you might enjoy an interesting article: The Moral Order of the World Points to God | Christianity Today ] …and there’s this: The natural order, therefore, would be defined as a created order in which man would be directed to an end or destiny that is strictly proportionate to his capacities, powers, and exigencies [needs] from: Natural Order | Encyclopedia.com With all that in mind, as you read the following chapters of Job, you might consider how silly it is to ask Does God have a budget for signs, miracles, and wonders? Job 38 to 41 1Then the Lord spoke to Job out of the storm. He said: 2“Who is this that obscures my plans with words without knowledge? 3Brace yourself like a man; I will question you, and you shall answer me. 4“Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation? Tell me, if you understand. 5Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know! Who stretched a measuring line across it? 6On what were its footings set, or who laid its cornerstone— 7while the morning stars sang together and all the angels a shouted for joy? 8“Who shut up the sea behind doors when it burst forth from the womb, 9when I made the clouds its garment and wrapped it in thick darkness, 10when I fixed limits for it and set its doors and bars in place, 11when I said, ‘This far you may come and no farther; here is where your proud waves halt’? 12“Have you ever given orders to the morning, or shown the dawn its place, 13that it might take the earth by the edges and shake the wicked out of it? 14The earth takes shape like clay under a seal; its features stand out like those of a garment. 15The wicked are denied their light, and their upraised arm is broken. 16“Have you journeyed to the springs of the sea or walked in the recesses of the deep? 17Have the gates of death been shown to you? Have you seen the gates of the deepest darkness? 18Have you comprehended the vast expanses of the earth? Tell me, if you know all this. 19“What is the way to the abode of light? And where does darkness reside? 20Can you take them to their places? Do you know the paths to their dwellings? 21Surely you know, for you were already born! You have lived so many years! 22“Have you entered the storehouses of the snow or seen the storehouses of the hail, 23which I reserve for times of trouble, for days of war and battle? 24What is the way to the place where the lightning is dispersed, or the place where the east winds are scattered over the earth? 25Who cuts a channel for the torrents of rain, and a path for the thunderstorm, 26to water a land where no one lives, an uninhabited desert, 27to satisfy a desolate wasteland and make it sprout with grass? 28Does the rain have a father? Who fathers the drops of dew? 29From whose womb comes the ice? Who gives birth to the frost from the heavens 30when the waters become hard as stone, when the surface of the deep is frozen? 31“Can you bind the chains b of the Pleiades? Can you loosen Orion’s belt? 32Can you bring forth the constellations in their seasons c or lead out the Bear d with its cubs? 33Do you know the laws of the heavens? Can you set up God’s e dominion over the earth? 34“Can you raise your voice to the clouds and cover yourself with a flood of water? 35Do you send the lightning bolts on their way? Do they report to you, ‘Here we are’? 36Who gives the ibis wisdom f or gives the rooster understanding? g 37Who has the wisdom to count the clouds? Who can tip over the water jars of the heavens 38when the dust becomes hard and the clods of earth stick together? 39“Do you hunt the prey for the lioness and satisfy the hunger of the lions 40when they crouch in their dens or lie in wait in a thicket? 41Who provides food for the raven when its young cry out to God and wander about for lack of food? Job 38 NIV ~ ~ ~ ~ 1“Do you know when the mountain goats give birth? Do you watch when the doe bears her fawn? 2Do you count the months till they bear? Do you know the time they give birth? 3They crouch down and bring forth their young; their labor pains are ended. 4Their young thrive and grow strong in the wilds; they leave and do not return. 5“Who let the wild donkey go free? Who untied its ropes? 6I gave it the wasteland as its home, the salt flats as its habitat. 7It laughs at the commotion in the town; it does not hear a driver’s shout. 8It ranges the hills for its pasture and searches for any green thing. 9“Will the wild ox consent to serve you? Will it stay by your manger at night? 10Can you hold it to the furrow with a harness? Will it till the valleys behind you? 11Will you rely on it for its great strength? Will you leave your heavy work to it? 12Can you trust it to haul in your grain and bring it to your threshing floor? 13“The wings of the ostrich flap joyfully, though they cannot compare with the wings and feathers of the stork. 14She lays her eggs on the ground and lets them warm in the sand, 15unmindful that a foot may crush them, that some wild animal may trample them. 16She treats her young harshly, as if they were not hers; she cares not that her labor was in vain, 17for God did not endow her with wisdom or give her a share of good sense. 18Yet when she spreads her feathers to run, she laughs at horse and rider. 19“Do you give the horse its strength or clothe its neck with a flowing mane? 20Do you make it leap like a locust, striking terror with its proud snorting? 21It paws fiercely, rejoicing in its strength, and charges into the fray. 22It laughs at fear, afraid of nothing; it does not shy away from the sword. 23The quiver rattles against its side, along with the flashing spear and lance. 24In frenzied excitement it eats up the ground; it cannot stand still when the trumpet sounds. 25At the blast of the trumpet it snorts, ‘Aha!’ It catches the scent of battle from afar, the shout of commanders and the battle cry. 26“Does the hawk take flight by your wisdom and spread its wings toward the south? 27Does the eagle soar at your command and build its nest on high? 28It dwells on a cliff and stays there at night; a rocky crag is its stronghold. 29From there it looks for food; its eyes detect it from afar. 30Its young ones feast on blood, and where the slain are, there it is.” Job 39 NIV ~ ~ ~ ~ 1The Lord said to Job: 2“Will the one who contends with the Almighty correct him? Let him who accuses God answer him!” 3Then Job answered the Lord: 4“I am unworthy—how can I reply to you? I put my hand over my mouth. 5I spoke once, but I have no answer— twice, but I will say no more.” 6Then the Lord spoke to Job out of the storm: 7“Brace yourself like a man; I will question you, and you shall answer me. 8“Would you discredit my justice? Would you condemn me to justify yourself? 9Do you have an arm like God’s, and can your voice thunder like his? 10Then adorn yourself with glory and splendor, and clothe yourself in honor and majesty. 11Unleash the fury of your wrath, look at all who are proud and bring them low, 12look at all who are proud and humble them, crush the wicked where they stand. 13Bury them all in the dust together; shroud their faces in the grave. 14Then I myself will admit to you that your own right hand can save you. 15“Look at Behemoth, which I made along with you and which feeds on grass like an ox. 16What strength it has in its loins, what power in the muscles of its belly! 17Its tail sways like a cedar; the sinews of its thighs are close-knit. 18Its bones are tubes of bronze, its limbs like rods of iron. 19It ranks first among the works of God, yet its Maker can approach it with his sword. 20The hills bring it their produce, and all the wild animals play nearby. 21Under the lotus plants it lies, hidden among the reeds in the marsh. 22The lotuses conceal it in their shadow; the poplars by the stream surround it. 23A raging river does not alarm it; it is secure, though the Jordan should surge against its mouth. 24Can anyone capture it by the eyes, or trap it and pierce its nose? Job 40 NIV ~ ~ ~ ~ 1“Can you pull in Leviathan with a fishhook or tie down its tongue with a rope? 2Can you put a cord through its nose or pierce its jaw with a hook? 3Will it keep begging you for mercy? Will it speak to you with gentle words? 4Will it make an agreement with you for you to take it as your slave for life? 5Can you make a pet of it like a bird or put it on a leash for the young women in your house? 6Will traders barter for it? Will they divide it up among the merchants? 7Can you fill its hide with harpoons or its head with fishing spears? 8If you lay a hand on it, you will remember the struggle and never do it again! 9Any hope of subduing it is false; the mere sight of it is overpowering. 10No one is fierce enough to rouse it. Who then is able to stand against me? 11Who has a claim against me that I must pay? Everything under heaven belongs to me. 12“I will not fail to speak of Leviathan’s limbs, its strength and its graceful form. 13Who can strip off its outer coat? Who can penetrate its double coat of armor a ? 14Who dares open the doors of its mouth, ringed about with fearsome teeth? 15Its back has b rows of shields tightly sealed together; 16each is so close to the next that no air can pass between. 17They are joined fast to one another; they cling together and cannot be parted. 18Its snorting throws out flashes of light; its eyes are like the rays of dawn. 19Flames stream from its mouth; sparks of fire shoot out. 20Smoke pours from its nostrils as from a boiling pot over burning reeds. 21Its breath sets coals ablaze, and flames dart from its mouth. 22Strength resides in its neck; dismay goes before it. 23The folds of its flesh are tightly joined; they are firm and immovable. 24Its chest is hard as rock, hard as a lower millstone. 25When it rises up, the mighty are terrified; they retreat before its thrashing. 26The sword that reaches it has no effect, nor does the spear or the dart or the javelin. 27Iron it treats like straw and bronze like rotten wood. 28Arrows do not make it flee; slingstones are like chaff to it. 29A club seems to it but a piece of straw; it laughs at the rattling of the lance. 30Its undersides are jagged potsherds, leaving a trail in the mud like a threshing sledge. 31It makes the depths churn like a boiling caldron and stirs up the sea like a pot of ointment. 32It leaves a glistening wake behind it; one would think the deep had white hair. 33Nothing on earth is its equal— a creature without fear. 34It looks down on all that are haughty; it is king over all that are proud.” Job 41 NIV ~ ~ ~ ~ That’s all for now, Grease Spotters Love and peace!

Tired of the inconvenience? Having to remind God again and again? Prevagen to the rescue! For the forgetful deity in your life. Trinitarians remember to give the Godhead 3-in-1 Prevagen with its triple-action formula. And for you rank unbelievers who wonder if your luck will ever run out - there’s also Helluvagen - formulated for the absentminded god of this world in your life. Patent pretending for Big Pharma Lharma Ding Dong.

Geez - this feels awkward. I was just trying to be truthful in the inspiration for my silliness.

Fyi Mark, here’s the real geniuses Popeye - Wikipedia Popeye the Sailor Man is a fictional cartoon character created by Elzie Crisler Segar. The character first appeared on January 17, 1929, in the daily King Features comic strip Thimble Theatre. The strip was in its tenth year when Popeye made his debut, but the one-eyed sailor quickly became the lead character, and Thimble Theatre became one of King Features' most popular properties during the 1930s. After Segar died in 1938, Thimble Theatre was continued by several writers and artists, most notably Segar's assistant Bud Sagendorf. It was formally renamed Popeye. The strip continues to appear in first-run instalments on Sundays, written and drawn by R.K. Milholland. The daily strips are reprints of old Sagendorf stories. and that's the truth - I yam what I yam, I'm T-Bone the plagiarizing man

There’s nothing quite so damaging as the human desire to be right. From: Stop Doing That $hi+ by Gary John Bishop

Interesting reference to Zion National Park and the Mormons. When 9/11 happened, my wife and I were vacationing in Big Sur of California. Since all airports were shut down, we decided to drive the rental vehicle all the way back home to Texas. I have a national park pass so we drove through Zion National Park – absolutely gorgeous – breathtaking! Speaking of TWI, Bickle, and the Mormons, I think the biggest reason why I am so hesitant to give credence on some of their interpretations of the Bible is from my own experience with TWI / wierwille – where the authority and trustworthiness of the founder relies heavily on some personal theophany (which those 3 groups rely on). I’ve been burned. So, I’m now of the opinion if someone can’t argue their theological case from just Scripture – then I’m not interested in considering their points because I doubt the impetus behind it. ~ ~ ~ ~ As a side note: this goes along the same lines of when I get in discussions about miracles, manifestations, personal experiences of phenomena. Some folks get the idea that when I talk about wierwille’s misinterpreting what the Bible teaches about that stuff, that I am saying none of that stuff can happen today. That’s not my position. My stance is to ignore the drivel of an incompetent, pathological liar, drunkard, plagiarist, delusional, megalomaniac like wierwille and the god made in his image. wierwille’s definitions and how-to on holy spirit stuff is pretentious and unbiblical. The lack of divine wisdom, power, and healing in the ministry of a faker who asserted the holy spirit was the field god called him to, should give one pause. I love Charity’s thread on how God works in us, because folks didn’t get into comparisons or try to outdo each other. I take the biblical approach – the way Scripture speaks to manifestations, gifts, spiritual abilities and such is that the person ALREADY KNOWS they HAVE SOMETHING(S) - so they don’t need some stupid class on them - it’s really a matter of cheerfully serving others with what you have. I think folks that really do have something are not prone to go around bragging about it – they’re too busy being driven – self-motivated – to serve in that particular capacity - it’s like they actually enjoy doing that stuff.

Thanks for that textusreceptusbibles hyperlink – really cool! Yeah, I hear you on theology confusing stuff – and I’m not 100 percent sold on either yet – how’s that for waffling. If you haven’t checked out those two Heiser links I posted earlier, I recommend you give them a chance. It got me to rethink how I understood familiar passages like 2 Thessalonians 2 NIV . Some of the descriptions have striking similarities to OT stuff like Isaiah 14 NIV , Ezekiel 28 NIV and Daniel 12 NIV , and the book of Revelation. Simple obvious statements like meet the Lord in the air or prince of the power of the air , we tend to take literally to the exclusion of referencing the spiritual realm.- just another aspect of the same event...just my opinion... this is all tentative in my mind right now...and granted some of the pieces of the interpretive puzzle could fit either way (split events or same event). I see no issue with practical consequences either way unless one goes overboard like Charity and I mentioning the extremes of TWI and Bickle.

wow! I love how you succinctly described the issues. "Once a teacher always a teacher"

I would be remiss if I did not speak to the elephant in the room (rapture vs end times). I’ve already mentioned TWI’s misapplication of the rapture. It tended toward escapism. Avoiding reality and evading a commitment to the here and now. On the other hand Bickle’s laser-like focus on end times kind of scares me because I get the sense him and his ‘spiritually elite troops’ are full of their own grandiosity. As I mentioned earlier, currently I’m leaning toward the rapture being a misunderstanding of the book of Revelation events - in other words, I believe rapture doctrine incorrectly splits the return of Christ into separate events. So I give Bickle credit for focusing on end times. But I fault him on being egotistical about how much of a role the church has in it. From what little I know of book of Revelation, it’s more about God’s sovereignty. This is just my opinion - I could be wrong.

That’s from an old Popeye cartoon - he always said some funny stuff under his breath like People who have more birthdays live longer. I dressed it up to fit with your post.

Telling yourself the truth is rarely easy, but it’s a sure fire way to free yourself from your own subconscious self-sabotage trap. What makes self-reflection challenging is that you’re both the con artist and the one being conned. From Stop Doing That ....  by Gary John Bishop

i believe people who have more birthdays live longer than people who do not.